Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    A correction and a clarification.
    
    All instances of 1/92 should be 1/96 (= 1/(4*24)).
    
    Bars can be any *integer* length less than ? (at least 48)
    
    Sorry about that.
    
    len.

    Real nice, Len.
    
    I can't wait for the detailed review.;^)
    
    Edd

    Thanks, but there's still an error....
    
    The MC500 limits you to two bars of 4/4's worth of time signature;
    i.e., you can specify up to 4/2, 8/4, 16/8 and 32/16 as time
    signatures.  So 7/4 is ok, but 9/4 is not.  Not much help if you're
    into ragas.  Maybe next rev...?
    
    I wrote the "review" from memory - checked some points in the manual
    last night and had to do some experiments to confirm some others.
    I should get ECC installed in my brain...
    
    len.
    

    One serious limitation that I'm pretty sure is real - i.e., I haven't
    yet found a way to work around it.
    
    You can't move data between songs.  Or assemble a new "song" from
    pieces of other songs.  What this really means is you can't use
    songs as a place to save work in progress that isn't ultimately
    destined for that song.  Or you can't build up "libraries" of
    standard drum patterns.  Or you can't keep a "notebook" of fragments
    that you don't know what you want to do with yet. 
    
    The only way I can see to get stuff out of one song and into another
    is to send the data out to another MIDI recorder (one that's capable
    of storing all the same kinds of MIDI data the MC500 can) and then
    loading it back into the MC500 in the destination song context.
    Loading a song from disk trashes all the onboard tracks for the
    specified song number, and you can't move onboard data between the
    8 onboard songs.

    Maybe next rev...
    
    len.
    
    

Well, I can't afford an MC500, but I still appreciate being able to read
a review so that I know the current state of advanced sequencers, and compare
that to "affordable" (for me) sequencers.  I guess what I'm saying is thank
you for the comprehensive review, Len.

Todd.
    

    The following MC-500 wish list is being given to the New England Roland
    rep via my buddies at EUWurlitzer.  It will be interesting to see
    what they do with "customer feedback".     
       
    len.
    
    ************************************************************************
    
The MC-500 is an *incredible* instrument.  This wish list is based
on things that seem possible that would be real assets.

I'd be willing to give up some song capacity both on disk and onboard
in exhange for these sorts of features, as long as there was some kind
of high capacity configuration (e.g., "performance disk/software") that
was compatible with the full featured software.

Better documentation.  The manual is just barely usable.  Needs a
*real* table of contents.  Desperately needs an index.

Warn users that swapping disks while in disk mode results in screwed 
up directories!  One should only swap disks in standby mode!

Separate soft thru per output.

Separate MIDI channel per rhythm voice (so different rhythm voices can 
come from different instruments).

Multiple note numbers per rhythm voice (so instruments can be doubled;
can be gotten around but requires additional programming).

Can't do 16th notes and 16th note triplets in the same bar for a single
rhythm voice, except by programming them as "different" voices.
Annoying limitation!

Edit R-PTNs with respect to CPT of events.  Would allow "swing" or
shuffle timing subtleties, as well as backbeat a little ahead or behind
beat.  This can be gotten around, but only at great programming cost,
by programming the rhythm track as an ordinary synth track.

More convenient access to R-PTN editing operations (copy, clear),
e.g., via edit menu instead of "secret" codes that have to be looked
up.

Some easy way of telling which rhythm voices are used in an R-PTN.
Some way to go to that R-PTN for editing easily from this display.
Could display up to 5 voice names per line on the display, or 10
voices in all.

Bar to R-PTN conversion.  Take a bar of data from a synth track, and
map note numbers to rhythm voices per mapping.  Ignore ambiguities
(two voices mapping to same note number) or resolve by picking lower
voice number (e.g.)?  Would provide a cheap way to convert drum machine
MIDI output to R-PTNs.
 
Playback-only transpose.  Doesn't change song data as stored.

Record/thru transpose.

Need way to move tracks between "songs".  Current restrictions disallow
"distributed arranging" with cooperating writers swapping disks.
Writers have to work strictly serially - I make all my changes to my 
tracks, give you the disk, you make all your changes to your tracks,
give me back the disk, I make my next set of changes to my tracks,
give you the disk, etc..

Chain play too limited to be of much use.  Should be generalized to allow
storage of "parts" on disk (by name, like songs) and assembly of song
from parts (e.g., intro, verse, chorus, alternate chorus, bridge,
break, vamp, etc.).  Assemble pieces via "P-TRK" analogous to R-TRK.
Have to allow a lot (i.e., at least 100) different parts, and "P-TRK"
length up to 100 parts.  Parts should be movable between songs.

Computed accelerandos/decelerandos.  (Starting place and tempo,
ending place and tempo).

Computed crescendos/diminuendos.  (Starting place and velocity,
ending place and velocity).

Scope of all editing operations defined down to CPT (e.g. from/to as
bar number + beat number or CPT within bar, number of bars + beats or 
CPTs).

More songs onboard (minimum 12 (approximately 1 "set"), preferably 16).
The rumored "performance disk/software"?

Bulk song load/save from/to disk.  E.g., "load set" or "Save all 
onboard songs to set".  Ability to group songs on disk as sets?

Version numbers on songs (can do manually, but too easy to screw up).

Save all songs that have been edited/changed?  Bump version number
automatically.
 
Arpegiate chords - specify time interval between notes (as note values 
or CPTs), pattern specified by sequence of relative position in source
chord, e.g., from bottom up (e.g., specify up-down arpeggio as 
1-2-3-4-3-2).  Only applies to notes occurring on same CPT.

Chord operations - delete, change CPT, invert (move lowest not to 
highest), probably as microscope edit operation.

"Gate time" quantization.  5 modes of quantization:

  1) quantize note on, don't change gate time, compute note off
  2) quantize note off, don't change gate time, compute note on
  3) quantize note on, quantize gate time, compute note off
  4) quantize note off, quantize gate time, compute note on
  5) quantize note on, quantize note off, compute gate time

Bulk edit of articulation.  Legato (overlaps note offs with successive 
note ons).  Nonlegato (removes overlaps, shortens gate time by specified
percentage?).

Bulk application of accents on from/to range?  Specify accent position 
and amount as CPT within bar, % increase in velocity?

Time shift of track.  Add/subtract constant to note on CPTs.
Shifts notes across bar lines as necessary.  Not applicable to R-TRK.
Applicable to R-PTN by "rotating" rhythm events within bar?
Shift specified as note value or CPT.

"Listen but don't run" mode for inserting patch changes etc.?
Clock value at insertion is time by which all data will have been
sent (rather than time at which data starts being sent), i.e., defines
*end* of interval rather than beginning.

Tempo diminution/augmentation.  Specify from/to range, factor.
Factor may be restricted to certain integers (e.g., 3, powers of 2)?
Changes gate times and note on CPTs relative to starting point.

Save/load MIDI parameters to/from disk for setup.  By named file.

Synth bulk patch dump/load (especially for Roland synths).  By name.
Single patches, banks, areas.  Allow editing of addresses for 
reorganizing?  (Actually stores patch, doesn't just load workspace.)

MIDI clock on block repeat.

Does anyone know  if  the  MC-500 is compatible with the PR-100 (is that
     it's correct model  number?  ..you know, that little brother of the
     MC-500)?

What I mean by compatible is simply the ability to swap sequences.

/Mitch

    If you mean swap disks, I would be surprised if they did. 

    Otherwise, you could always MIDI OUT->IN and IN->OUT, set one to listen
    to external clock and away you go.  Swap 'em over MIDI. 

-b

Actually, I had swapping disks in mind.   oh well...

Waiting for standard files...

/Mitch

    The PR-100 is more like the MC-500's nephew.  The MC-300 is its
    little brother.  The MC-300 is basically a cost-reduced MC-500,
    and is (I believe) disk-compatible.  MC-500 MkII disks are also
    MC-500 MkI compatible.  My MC-500 goes in to be upgraded as soon
    as I can psych myself up to be without it for a week.
    
    len.
    

>     The MC-300 is its
>     little brother.  The MC-300 is basically a cost-reduced MC-500,
>     and is (I believe) disk-compatible.

Thanks for the info.  Any idea how much the MC-300 goes for?   /Mitch

    There's no MC-300 topic (yet).  I'll find out how much it costs
    and post it here.
    
    len.
    

    There is an MC-500 in the WANT-AD for $500...
    
    Seems a decent price... I spent $1100 new 1.5 years ago...
    

Mitch,

The standard prices at Wurly's are...

PR100 $550
MC300 $995
MARK2 $1495

These are not the DECMS prices. If you visit the store, negotiate with Eddie
Fritz. Also, I believe Acton Music has an MC500 for $895 closeout price. Ask for
Jack or Ken. You might be able to find a leftover MC500 mailorder. They also
appear in the WantAdvertiser "never used, still in box, call 555-...".
Also, check the DECMS price bulletin board note 1523.1

The PR100 is just a basic MIDI recorder, with almost no editing. The MC300
is similar to the MC500. The MARK2 has the new SuperMRC (Turbo) software,
extra memory, 8 tracks, etc.

dave

    >< Note 482.12 by DRUMS::FEHSKENS >
>                                -< I'll Check >-
>
>    There's no MC-300 topic (yet).  I'll find out how much it costs
>    and post it here.
>    
>    len.
 Don't be silly, Len!  It doesn't cost (us) anything to post a note!
    Tom

    RE: .15 
    
    > -<Precise language eschews ambiguity >-
    
    I think you mean "multivalence" -- there are at least three
    possibilities in Len's prediction/statement/intention.
    
    Course, I can't be sure. 
    
    Richard.

    The S-MRC-500 "Super MRC" MC-300/500/500MkII software just got a
    rave review in the latest issue of Electronic Musician.
    
    I differ with this review in one important respect.  The reviewer
    rated the documentation 9 on a scale of 10.  This is, I regret,
    utter bullshit.  In fact it is so misleading that I'm tempted to
    write a letter to EM.
    
    The software comes with two manuals, a "Beginner's Course" and an
    "Advanced Course".  The "Beginner's Course" is in fact something
    of a tutorial, and it contains an extended example of how to enter
    data into the MC-500, and some limited editing.  Most of the most
    powerful features of the MC-500/S-MRC combo are not discussed in
    this manual, as is appropriate for an introductory document.
    
    However, the "Advanced Course" is not a "course" at all.  It is
    a reference manual, and as such suffers (again) from having a useless
    index.  Most useful terms are not found in the index, and it is
    not cross-referenced at all.  I have been pencilling in useful index
    entries as I find them.
    
    In fact, my "Advanced Course" is littered with pencilled in comments
    and questions.  Vast quantities of fundamental information are left
    out or can only be inferred by putting together tidbits scattered
    throughout the manual.  For example, the S-MRC software supports
    the capability of autoloading a set of songs when the system disk
    is booted.  This capability is implied by offhand remarks made in
    three or four different places in the manual.  Nowhere is the means
    to set this up or take advantage of it clearly discussed in a single
    block of text.  Neither "boot" or "autoload" are indexed.  The
    discussion of booting mentions nothing about autoload of songs,
    nor does the section on loading songs from disk.  Autoload is mentioned
    in the section on saving a configuration.
    
    This sort of disconnected presentation characterizes the entire
    manual.  To further compound things, it suffers from the "pidgin
    English ineptly translated from the Japanese" syndrome, and there
    are typically several typos per page.  Many of the few cross references
    actually included are wrong (i.e., they send you to the wrong page
    in the manual).  There are statements that contradict one another.
    Idiosyncratic concepts and features are left unexplained.  Terminology
    is inconsistent (e.g., sometimes it says "time signature" and sometimes
    it says "beat" to mean "time signature").  Complex operations are
    described with no representation of what you actually see on the
    display.  Required and optional steps are not distinguished.
    
    The reviewer claims to run the MC-500 users group and to be writing
    an "advanced users manual" for the S-MRC software.  Based on this
    review I have little hope for his output.
    
    I am assembling a lengthy letter to Roland asking them all the
    questions I have written into my manual, and perhaps I will someday
    write a better manual (just the sort of thing I love to do in my
    spare time).
    
    The gushing quality of this review calls into question all other
    EM reviews, especially when it is as offbase as this one is.  The
    MC-500/S-MRC combination *is* incredible, but the documentation
    is an abomination.
    
    len.
    

    
    I've questioned a few of them myself, rarly do you see them really
    pan anything, but then panning your major advertisers, especially
    when they donate 'complimentary' units to the editorial staff is
    just plain bad business.
    
    I don't believe they are very objective, like most magazines of
    this sort. Instead they are showcases for manufacturers, where we
    pay to buy the ads and a few articles of questionable relevance.
    
    dbii
    

The "Finale" program is reviewed glowingly in the latest MACWORLD magazine. A
little note from the editor after the review says that, "after writing this
review in September 1988, Mr so-and-so became a paid consultant to <the
developer>." 

Meanwhile MACAZINE, which has always prided itself on pulling no punches in its
unbiased reviews, has just announced they have ceased publishing. 

The magazine business (like the newspaper business) is the advertising
business. 

    There's also a S-MRC review in the Jan. 89 issue of Music Technology.
    
    The reviewer thought it was great, except for the manual.  To quote:
    
    "One final (common) complaint: the owner's manuals (there are two)
    are chock full of typos, and some things didn't quite make the
    translation into English (eg. the explanation of the Gate Time Ratio's
    functions on Page 189 is baffling).
    (sic) Now if Roland could just find an English typesetter with a
    dictionary...".
    
    Rodney M.
    

    re .20 - yes, I saw that review also, and it's much more objective.
    
    Regarding the advertising influence on editorial content; the reviewer
    is not on the staff of EM, but the review could have said "the
    documentation sucks" without denigrating the product itself.  Also,
    my concern was less lack of objectivity than the apparent
    superficiality - did this guy do any more than thumb through the
    "Basic Course" manual?  Also, when he bragged about how he was able
    to "change a MIDI channel to a different patch" I started to wonder
    if he had the vaguest idea of what he was talking about.
    
    By the way, the explanation of Gate Time Ratio on page 189 *is*
    incomprehensible!  It's sufficiently bizarre that I'll have to quote
    it for you at some point.
    
    len.
    

    Sorry, I forget to getthe relevant quote, but I did want to note
    that my MC-500 has returned from Roland, with a working OM-500
    upgrade installed.  After all the horror stories about Roland service,
    I was pleasantly surprised to have my unit returned to me after
    6 weeks, and only be charged shipping ($10) for the repair.  Well,
    actually, had they charged me any more than that I would have been
    outraged, as apparently it was the upgrade board that was sick,
    not my MC-500.  (Note that *two* upgrade boards exhibited the same
    behaviour - I wonder if they had adjacent serial numbers...)
    
    So, now I can get on with the S-MRC software, and provide a typically
    comprehensive, objective, incisive, etc.. review.
    
    len.
    

	Since I've been thinking about upgrading my MIDI DJ to an MC-n00, let
me pose a few questions to those of you well-versed in the use of this beast...

	-	The primary concern I have is its ease of use in performance.
	That is why I like the MIDI DJ, inspite of its zits.  I am told that
	it will hold eight songs in its memory (providing the songs do not
	exceed its internal note capacity).  How easy/difficult is it to go
	from song to song?  Since I do some speaking between songs on stage,
	I don't want to be fiddling with a lot of knobs and wheels while I'm
	trying to go into the next piece.  Any comments?

	-	I know that there is software to make the MC500 go from song to
	song quickly.  Anyone know the cost of this software?

	-	I understand the MC300 acts like the MC500, except that it
	CANNOT be upgraded, memorywise.  Is that true?

	-	If I were to get the TURBO software, I understand without the
	memory upgrade you lose a certain amount of memory capacity.  I would 
	want the TURBO software for song development, not for performance.  Is 
	it possible to develop a piece using the TURBO software and load it 
	down to four tracks, then for performance, use the MRC-500 software
	(with its greater note capacity) to load up songs (in order to fit as
	many songs as possible)?

	Thanks for any help...

	Dan

    re .23 - I'll try to answer your questions as I understand them:
    
    	1) going from "song to song":  how difficult or time consuming
    	   this is depends on how deep you are in the menu nest.  If
   	   you are in a performance situation, and all you want to do
    	   is play songs, this is trivial.  When one song ends, you
    	   move the cursor from the tempo field to the song number field
    	   (one key press) and then select the next song you wish
    	   to play (a small spin of the alpha dial, or a numeric key
    	   press).  The you hit "ENTER".  So, it's 3 keypresses, and
    	   after a few times, it becomes a "finger macro".  I've been
    	   surprised by how quickly I learned such "macros" for even
    	   fairly complex editing operations.  I don't think this will
    	   be an issue.  You can get to the next song in a matter of
    	   seconds.
    
    	2) I don't know what software this is that allows you to "go from
    	   song to song quickly".  There is rumored to be a "performance"
    	   package that eliminates the editing functions so you can
    	   store bigger songs (you can still store only 8, I believe), but
    	   as the MC-500 MKII (or MC-500 with OM-500 upgrade) stores 100000
    	   notes onboard even with the editing functions, this capability
    	   seems moot.  Even with the performance software, my guess
    	   is that it would still take 3 keypresses to get from one
    	   song to the next.
    
    	   The MRC-500 software supports a "chain" mode, that
    	   *automatically* segues up to 8 songs together.  The S-MRC
    	   ("turbo") software supports a "link" function that appends up to
    	   20 instances of 8 "songs" together, but this is really meant
    	   to build a songs out of sections (e.g., verses and choruses),
    	   and it works by overwriting "song" 1 with the appended data.
    	   It merges all the rhythm patterns together, and I don't believe
    	   this is the performance function you want.  There is no "chain"
    	   mode supported by the S-MRC software. 
    
    	   The bottom line on this one is you don't get (or need?) any more
    	   capability than you already have with the basic editing software.
           
    	   One possibility you might want to try is to use the link
    	   capability to link up to 8 songs together, then use the
    	   "locate point" feature to get to each song's beginning.
    	   This would allow you to store more than 8 songs at a time,
    	   but you'd have to be keep track of song groups.  The "goto
    	   locate point" capability is very fast, about the same as
    	   selecting a song (i.e., about 3 keypresses).
    
    	3) Yes, an MC-300 is a nonupgradeable MC-500.  Both the MC-300
    	   and the MC-500 will run the S-MRC ("turbo") software, albeit
    	   with some limitations and constant disk accesses that slow
    	   things down quite a bit.  Note that I was unable to convert
    	   any songs from MRC to S-MRC format without the additional
    	   capacity of the upgrade, so I couldn't try any of the editing
    	   features of the new software on my as yet non-upgraded MC-500.
    	   This may have been only because the disk was close to full,
    	   or it may have been because the songs wouldn't fit in the
    	   remaining memory available after loading the new software.
    	   If it was because of disk capacity, you could get around
    	   this by copying the songs to a disk for conversion a few
    	   at a time, rather than all at once.
    
    	4) The S-MRC and MRC song formats on disk are different.  You
    	   can convert from the MRC to S-MRC format, but not vice versa.
    	   So you could edit using the "old" software, and convert to
    	   the "new" format for performance, but you'd have to convert
    	   after every round of editing.  Also, the conversions are
    	   "in place", so you'd have to copy the disk to preserve the
    	   songs in the old format for editing.
    
    To be perfectly honest with you, while running the new software
    on an MC-300 or non-upgraded MC-500 is possible, I don't recommend
    it.  The additional memory makes a *big* difference. 
           
    len.
    

    I didn't really answer your last question as bluntly as I should
    have.
    
    No, you can't edit with the new software and perform with the old
    software, at least not without some other MIDI storage device to
    buffer a copy from the new style disk to the old style.  You cannot
    convert from S-MRC disk format to MRC disk format.  You can only
    go the other way.
    
    len.
    

RE < Note 482.24 by DRUMS::FEHSKENS >

	Thanks, Len!  You helped clear a number of things up.

	The software that allows you to "go from song to song quickly" is the
performance software you mentioned (MRP-500?).  i just finfished reading a 
description of it from someone who sent personal mail to me in answer to my
inquiry.  Looks pretty good and the cost is in the $150 area.

	I noticed in the pictures that the MC300 doesn't appear to be as 
'rugged' as the MC500 and it's newer version.  The switches look cost-reduced
and such.  I think I'm going to try to find an MC500.  The upgrade looks
powerf'ly expensive - but its nice to know you CAN upgrade.

	Dan

	One other question...

	There seems to be a lot of track editing functions - but I haven't seen
mention of one that the MIDI DJ has that is quite useful.  On the DJ, you can 
isolate a single midi channel on to the second (empty) track in order to edit 
it (or do whatever you want with it).  Then you can send it back to the other 
track and it will automatically replace the data that was there for that track.

	Now, the second of those options are not as important on the MC500, 
since you have more than two tracks to begin with.  But being able to isolate
a midi channel onto an empty track would be REAL nice - especially since I'm
used to 35 tracks (Dr T's KCS).  That would make the limitation of 4 tracks
much more liveable.  

	Does the MRC-500 software allow this kind of channel isolation?

	Dan

    Yes, you can extract any channel from any track, by event type,
    within any range of event values (e.g., note numbers).  You can then
    remerge the data back into the original track (extract actually
    removes the data, rather than copy it).
    
    len.
    

    Oops, it's only the S-MRC software that can do event-discriminated
    extracts.  The MRC software is limited to extracting all events
    within a specified bar range, and overwrites the target track.
    The S-MRC software can bound the extraction by bar or locate point,
    and then qualify it further by event type and value range.  "All"
    is a valid event type; the rest are things like note, channel
    aftertouch, polyphonic aftertouch, controller change, program change,
    etc.  The S-MRC can also merge the extracted data into the destination
    track, or replace; you get to choose.
    
    len.
     

RE < Note 482.29 by DRUMS::FEHSKENS >

	You just told me about that to tempt me to get the S-MRC package, didn't
you?   &^)

	That is pretty interesting, though.  How many other things does the 
S-MRC package offer you that is not in the original MRC software (or have you 
already posted that somewhere?)?

	Dan

    The S-MRC software is a *significant* extension of the MRC software.
    Once I have converted all my disks, I expect to never go back.
    No, I haven't posted the differences anywhere yet, but the major
    ones are:
    
    	ability to define up to 8 named "locate points" to bound editing
    	operations down to the clock tick level
    
    	8 tracks rather than 4
    
    	ability to copy tracks from one song to another
    
    	ability to save configuration setups to disk
    
    	ability to name disks and comment songs
    
    	ability to time shift data in bulk, including rhythm track
    
    	ability to qualify almost all editing operations by event type
    	and value range (including time shift; want to delay the backbeat
    	of the rhythm track by 1 clock tick - 1 editing command!)
    
    	up to 240 rhythm patterns per song (instead of 99)
    
    	tempo range from 5 to 500 bpm (instead of 20 to 250)
    
        actual tempo displayed in real time (instead of just an up or
    	down arrow indicating "faster (or slower) than shown")
    
    	bulk editing of articulation
    
    	ability to "compute" crescendos/decrescendos
    
    	data thinning capability for continuous controllers
    
    	arbitrary remapping of all MIDI channels (without requiring
    	editing of data tracks!)
    
    	ability to step program parts without regard for rhythm, then
    	"rewrite rhythm" in real time by tapping any key
    
    	ability to program drum patterns in real (rather than step)
    	time
    
    	ability to define MIDI channel per rhythm instrument
    
    	"event buffers" for repetitive editing operations
        
    	and much, much more.
    	
                 
    The S-MRC software bears the same relationship to the MRC software
    that the MC-500 bears to the MSQ-700.
    
    It's a whole different game.
    
    len.
    
                      

re < Note 482.31 by DRUMS::FEHSKENS >

	Sounds GREAT!  A lot of the items seem to be things that you listed in
your 'wish list' you sent some time back.

	What isthe cost of upgrade , both hardware and software (if you don't
mind my asking)?

	Dan 

	Also, any advice as to how to care for the disk drive?  Can one buy a
generic 'cleaning' disk that can just be inserted and will take care of disk 
drive maintenance?

	Dan

    It appears that almost all of the editing features that you have to
    buy in the MC-500 upgrade (MRC software) are standard features on the
    Alesis MMT-8 (lists for <$300.00). It does not, however, have a disk
    drive.

							Jens
    

RE < Note 482.34 by TYFYS::MOLLER "Halloween the 13th on Elm Street #7" >

	But, if memory serves correctly, the MMT8 does not allow step time 
recording.  That's an important oversight if its a person's main unit.

	The MC500 also has a rhythm track and a tempo track.  I'd still choose
to spend more for the MC500 than buy an MMT8 (obviously - since I just did).

	Dan

    I have not seen what the MMT-8 can do, but I'd be surprised if it
    has all the S-MRC's capabilities wired in.  Note also that the MC-500
    does this with 100000 notes of onboard storage, and the ability
    to save songs to disk is a significant advantage.  Could some MMT-8
    owner post a comprehensive list of MMT-8 features?  I'll do the same
    for the MRC and S-MRC software.  One additional thing that makes
    a real difference to me - I feel I can *trust* my MC-500 to continue
    working indefinitely.  Still, the comparison would be interesting.
    
    At least with a disk based system it's possible to upgrade the
    software.  Incidentally, the (old) MRC software is no slouch.  I suppose
    one man's advantage is another man's disadvantage.  "Being able
    to buy an upgrade" vs. "having to buy an upgrade"?
    
    The S-MRC software is $200, and the OM-500 upgrade is $450.  Or
    maybe the software is $250 and the memory is $400.  Anyway, the
    combination is $650.
    
    len.
    

    I'll see if I can do this (post the features). The MC500 has a
    different set of strengths than the MMT-8, but it has a lot of the
    editing features that you have to pay extra for on the MC500, Likewise,
    the MMT-8 is limited to 25,000 MIDI events, and has no disk drive.
    The Roland is much more solidly built, but the MMT-8 is lots cheaper.
    Let me find my documentation & work on this.

							    Jens

    You keep saying the MMT-8 has "a lot of editing features that you
    have to pay extra for on the MC500".  Please note that the basic
    MRC software comes ("free") with the MC500, and is quite impressive,
    and maybe even does more than the MMT-8.  The MC500 *does* cost more
    than the MMT-8, but this same software runs on the MC300, and you can
    pick up a used MC500 for about $500 or so.
              
    len.

    Good stuff. I saw a few things that I left out of the MMT-8 description
    that I either haven't figured out how to use, or the need hasn't arisen
    for yet. The MC-500 looks like it has a PATTERN SEQUENCER mode,
    allowing it to function as if it was a DRUM MACHINE, this is something
    that the MMT-8 could benifit from.

						    Thanks
							    Jens

    
    
       I use an MMT8 also and don't really comprehend how a song is
    written on an MC500(no parts?). Is the entire composition written
    out in length, and the program run by pointers?. 
    Example:
            (1)verse
    	    (2)chorus
            (3)bridge		for simplicity's sake
    
    pointers: after (1) loop to (1)
    	      after (2) goto (1)
    	      after (1) goto (3)        not your everyday abacab
    	      after (3) loop on (1)
               etc.
    
    Understanding that alternate tracks could be turned on or off for
    each pointer.
    
    	Does it work like this or am I (a)making this up as I go along
    			or	       (b)bRaiN DamAgEd
                                                                      
    
    	Apologies to those dedicated MMT8 users but Im getting ready
    to gig with my midi duo and I don't trust it. It's broken on me
    twice in 1 year (both midi merge problems) and I need something
    more roadworthy. I'm not crazy about the MC500 either. I am leaning
    more towards the Kawai Q80(32 tracks, $580 new). It's a cross between
    the two aforementioned sequencers in that it has the global editing
    features of the MC500XX, and yet the ease of use of the MMT8, which
    is kind of like using a tape recorder.
    
    					Rich
    
    
    
                                                                
    

    Here's a cleaned up version of my MC-500/MRC-500/S-MRC summary.
    I took the opportunity to correct one minor mistake and a few
    omissions.
    
    I've structured this description along the same lines as Jens Moller's
    description of the Alesis MMT-8.
    
    len.
      
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
    General:

    	Documentation - atrocious.  The S-MRC is an improvement over the
    	old MRC-500 manual, but that's not saying much.  Unfortunately,
    	the S-MRC software is so much hairier than the MRC-500 that this
    	"improvement" results in a net loss.

    	Data storage - 3.5" floppy disk.  These disks are readily available at
    	any computer store, and hold about 900K bytes, depending on formatting
    	details.  The MC-500 can store up to 100 songs or 100000 events on
    	disk.  The S-MRC software also allows an MC-500 "configuration" (note,
    	*only one* per disk) to be stored.  Transfers between disk and the
    	MC-500 are relatively fast, depending on the song length, but on the 
    	order of 10 to 20 seconds typically.  A disk can be set up to
    	automatically load up to 8 songs when the disk is booted (S-MRC
    	software only).  Booting the MC-500 takes about a minute, but you
    	only have to do this once, after powering up the unit.

    	Power supply - detachable line cord.

    	Display - 2 lines of 20 characters.  Alphanumerics (upper and lower
    	case) and many other symbols.  Backlit LCD, readily visible under
    	just about all circumstances.

    	Push buttons - 15 function, 5 track, numeric keypad, alpha dial.
    	Push buttons are reliable and bounce free.

    	General construction - solid.  While installing and debugging the
    	OM-500 memory upgrade, I took my MC-500 apart (including taking the
    	disk drive out) about 6 times.  No problems.  Internal construction
    	very nice - heavy duty circuit boards, wiring harnesses, highly
    	modular.

    	My personal rating - high quality construction, very rich in function.
    	Worth the price.  Perhaps exceeded in capability by the best personal
    	computer (Mac, IBM, Atari, Amiga) sequencers, but for a compact
    	(a little smaller than the Boston yellow pages), rugged unit, can't
    	be equalled.

    Functions:

    	General - most "bulk" operations can be applied to a specified (or
    	all) track(s), within a range of bars, on a specified (or all) MIDI
    	channel(s), sometimes limited to a specified MIDI event type and range
    	of values for that type; for example, "transpose all notes between
    	MIDI note numbers 32 and 55 from bar 24 to bar 36 up by 7 semitones".
    	Most operations allow the use of "locate points" instead of bar
    	numbers.  A locate point is a predefined position defined by bar
    	number, beat within bar, and clock tick within beat.  Up to 8 locate
    	points may be defined and named (up to 8 characters) per song, and
    	two predefined locate points correspond to the beginning and end of
    	the song.  The MRC-500 software does not support locate points,
    	event-type specific operations, or value range delimited operations.

    	Loop - called "block repeat" on the MC-500.  Bounds of block may be
    	arbitrarily defined.

    	Click Out jack - called "metronome out" on the MC-500.  Has its own
    	volume control on the back panel.  Under software control, the
    	metronome may be selected to sound never, always, only when recording
    	or playing, or only when recording.  The metronome can be set to play
    	either quarter or eighth notes (i.e., one or two clicks per quarter
    	note) on the MRC-500, or on the S-MRC, can be set to "auto" mode
    	(metronome clicks per quarter note is based on denominator of time
    	signature) or 16th, 8th, quarter, dotted quarter, or half notes.
    	In addition, the MC-500 provides a visual indication of the metronome
    	via an LED that flashes red on the downbeat and green for every
    	other "click". 

    	MIDI IN/OUT/THRU - 1 MIDI IN, 2 MIDI OUTs, 1 MIDI THRU.  Each out
    	may also separately enable a "soft thru" to pass input to the output.
    	Tracks can individually routed to neither, either, or both outputs,
    	all under software control.  The MRC-500 software does not support
    	track routing or separate soft thru per output (both outputs are
    	controlled by the same parameter).

    	10 tracks - 8 "phrase" tracks for musical data, a rhythm track for
    	drum machine-like rhythm instrument sequencing, and a tempo track.
    	Tracks are any length up to 999 bars.  Bars may be any time signature
    	with numerator from 1 to 32 and denominator one of 2, 4, 8 or 16. 
    	Thus the shortest bar the S-MRC can deal with is 1/16, and the longest
    	is 32/2.  The MRC-500 software only supports 4 phrase tracks and limits
    	time signatures to the equivalent of 8/4.  The rhythm track defines
    	the time signature for the corresponding bars of all other tracks,
    	but the rhythm track may contain any mix of time signatures.  The
    	tempo track defines relative variations from the base tempo (i.e.,
    	tempo modulations may be programmed).  Phrase tracks may contain any
    	MIDI data on any number of channels.  See discussion of editing
    	capabilities for editing operations on tracks.  Tracks may be muted,
    	in standby mode on the MRC-500 or even while playing on the S-MRC.

    	MIDI SysEx - records and plays any SysEx data, if SysEx receive is
    	enabled.  No SysEx "dump" capability in S-MRC or MRC-500 software,
    	although MRB-500 bulk librarian software can record/dump any SysEx
    	data.  

    	Tape In/Out - no tape data interface; all data transfer is to/from
    	integral disk.  Tape sync capability *is* supported.

    	MIDI filter - separate receive enables for control change, program
    	change, pitch bend, channel aftertouch, polyphonic aftertouch and
    	system exclusive.  May also be set to receive events only on a
    	specified (or all) MIDI channel(s).  Note that in addition to these
    	receive enables, tracks may be edited to "thin" or erase specific
    	MIDI events.  Also, MIDI clock output may be selectively enabled to
    	either MIDI output. MRC-500 software may disable playback of recorded
    	SysEx data.

    	Tempo - base tempo may be set (and remembered) per song, in range from
    	10 to 250 bpm.  Tempo may be varied during playback manually or via
    	tempo track.  Tempo may also be controlled (S-MRC only) during playback
    	via any MIDI controller assigned to tempo, over range 5 to 500 bpm.
    	S-MRC shows current actual tempo in display, MRC-500 shows base tempo
    	and "faster" or "slower" indicator.
    
    	Name - you can name a song (up to 12 characters), and (S-MRC only)
    	name a locate point (up to 8 characters) or a disk (up to 13
    	characters).  In addition, the S-MRC software supports a "song log"
    	(a long comment, up to 99 lines of up to 16 characters each) associated
    	with a song.  The S-MRC also allows note names for each of the 5
    	accidentals (the "black keys") to be defined on a song by song basis
    	(so, for example, C# can be displayed as Db if that's what you'd
    	prefer).

    	Part - there is no MC-500 analog to the MMT-8 "part".  The closest
    	thing is the "Link Program" capability of the S-MRC software, or the
    	"Chain Play" capability of the MRC-500.  "Link Program" concatenates
    	up to 20 instances of the 8 songs in the S-MRC into a single song,
    	overwriting song 1 and merging all the rhythm patterns as well.
    	The MRC-500's "Chain Play" simply plays back up to 8 songs one
    	after another without operator intervention.  Neither of these is
    	as flexible as the MMT-8 "part" capability.  The MC-500 does have
    	extensive copying facilities, but the results use up more memory than
    	the sort of "by reference" facility that seems to be implied by the
    	MMT-8 "part" notion.

    	Song - an MC-500 song is simply a set of 5 (MRC-500) or 10 (S-MRC)
    	tracks.  The only internal structure to an MC-500 song is the bar.

    	Copy - virtually any copy capability you might want is supported by
    	the MC-500.  The variations are too numerous to mention.  The S-MRC
    	can copy and merge tracks or copy and replace tracks.  The MRC-500
    	can only copy and replace tracks.  In addition to track and parts of
    	tracks, both within and (S-MRC only) between songs, you can copy disks,
    	songs, rhythm patterns, function settings (per-song configuration data,
    	S-MRC only) and individual events (S-MRC only, via the "event memory"
    	facility).  The MC-500 also supports an extract capability that is
    	like copy except it deletes the copied data from its source track.

    	Edit - the MC-500 supports two editing modes - bulk editing of a
    	specified or all track(s), and "microscope" mode editing of single
    	events.  As noted earlier, the scope of a bulk edit may be defined
    	as a specified (or all) track(s), for some specified (or all) MIDI
    	channel(s), within some range of bars (or between a pair of locate
    	points on the S-MRC), for some specified (or all) MIDI event types;
    	not all variations supported by the MRC-500), within some range of
    	event values (S-MRC only).  The bulk editing operations supported
    	include erase, delete (all event types only), insert (empty bars only),
    	merge, extract, transpose, change MIDI channel, change velocity,
    	quantize, copy, change gate time (note duration) (S-MRC only), shift
    	by clock (time shift) (S-MRC only), data thin (S-MRC only), track
    	exchange (S-MRC only), and an obscure feature called "multi-edit"
    	(S-MRC only) that has some powerful capabilities and some
    	incomprehensible (at least with the current documentation) features.
    	Both the change velocity (compress or expand dynamic range) and change
    	gate time edits can be applied gradually over some specified number of
    	bars (S-MRC only). Microscope (single event) editing capabilities
    	include change event (*any* field of the event), erase event, insert
    	event, move event (time shift), and place event from event memory
    	(S-MRC only).  In addition, the S-MRC supports "step edit" operations,
    	that don't operate on MIDI events, but rather on the time slot that
    	they occupy.  These operations (change, delete and insert) shift all
    	subsequent events as required.  Microscope editing operations can be
    	applied to SysEx messages, an extremely powerful capability, if
    	tedious to use.  You can also control what events are visible during
    	microscope operations, so the track is not "cluttered up" by irrelevant
    	events, using the "view field" feature (S-MRC only).

    	Quantize - see Edit.  Note that the MC-500 supports quantization of
    	only the NOTE ON (start of note) events, maintaining the event's
    	gate time.  The degree of quantization can be controlled (i.e.,
    	only move the note some percentage of its distance from the
    	quantized position; S-MRC only).

    	Transpose - see Edit.  Transposes may be up or down up to 24 semitones.

    	Merge - see Edit.

    	Erase - see Edit.

    	Record - The MC-500 can record phrase tracks in either real or step
    	time mode.  The MRC-500 can record rhythm patterns only in step time
    	mode, while the S-MRC can record rhythm patterns in either real or
    	step time.  You can "overdub" by recording on one track while playing
    	other tracks (real time only).  You can manually punch in from the
    	front panel or via a back panel foot switch input.  The S-MRC also
    	supports "auto-punchin" via preset punch points - when the S-MRC
    	reaches the punch-in point during playback, it will automatically
    	switch to real time record mode on the specified track, then
    	automatically switch out of record mode when the punch-out point is
    	reached.  The S-MRC also supports "mix" recording (which merges
    	incoming data into an existing track), and "rewrite velocity" and
    	"rewrite step" recording modes.  These are quite clever and useful.
    	"Rewrite velocity" allows you to revise the velocity data on a track
    	in real time, using a variety of MIDI controllers.  "Rewrite step"
    	allows you to revise the rhythm of a piece in real time, so you can
    	first record "just the pitches", and then use any keyboard event to
    	specify the desired rhythm.  Finally, you can program ("record") the
    	tempo track in either real or step time.  In real time mode, the tempo
    	can be mapped from any MIDI controller.

    	Countdown click - the MC-500 will play two bars worth of count in
    	through its metronome output.

    	MIDI clock - the MC-500 can be a MIDI master or slave, and a tape
    	sync master or slave.  You can control whether or not MIDI clock
    	is transmitted from each output individually.

    	Play - Plays a song from any specified bar.  Any track can be muted
    	before playing, or (S-MRC only) while playing.  The current bar number
    	is displayed.  See also Loop.  The S-MRC supports "fast" (*4) and
    	"slow" (*1/4) play.

    	Stop/Continue - Playback or recording can be stopped or continued.
    	Reset stops and returns the song to the first bar.

    	Memory left - internal and disk storage usage can be displayed,
    	via the AVAIL MEMO front panel pushbutton.

    Other features:

    	Up to 32 rhythm instruments for use in programming rhythm patterns
    	can be assigned to any MIDI channel (S-MRC, per instrument; MRC-500,
    	all instruments) and note number.  Each instrument can be given a three
    	character mnemonic.  8 rhythm pattern velocity levels can be mapped
    	to any MIDI velocity.  The S-MRC supports a velocity offset for each
    	bar of the rhythm track, allowing large scale dynamics without
    	requiring creation of many patterns otherwise the same except for
    	velocity level or the need for more than 8 velocity levels for
    	programming patterns.

    	Tracks may be individually assigned to neither, either, or both MIDI
    	outputs (S-MRC only).

    	Phrase track MIDI channels may be arbitrarily remapped to any MIDI
    	channel for output (S-MRC only).

    	S-MRC only: the time duration of any segment of a song (between bar
    	numbers or locate points) may be computed as a function of the
    	currently set tempo, taking into account tempo modulations recorded on
    	the tempo track.  The time will be updated as the base tempo is
    	changed so one can determine the proper tempo to make a segment take
    	a specified time to play.

    	The "data check" feature provides a summary of what's recorded on
    	a given track (e.g., "note messages on channel 3").

    	A whole slew of minor details that would take too long to explain
    	or that I can't remember.
    	  

    re .41 - Hmmm - your remark about the MMT-8 being "easier to use"
    because it's "more like a tape recorder" is curious - I don't know
    of any tape recorder with MMT-8-like "parts".  The MC-500 is more
    like a tape recorder in that regard - all it has is tracks.
    
    You structure a song on the MC-500 the obvious way - from beginning
    to end.  There are no "parts".  Incidentally, I find the MMT-8's use
    of the word "part" here a bit confusing - I usually put a "part"
    (e.g., the "bass part" or the "piano part") on a track; all the
    tracks play together to make a song.
    
    You build up the song from its pieces (e.g., intro, verse, chorus,
    etc.) by copying and appending them as necessary.  The MC-500 uses
    more memory as a result.  You can automate this process with the
    S-MRC software by using the link feature - you create each component
    as a separate song (e.g., song 1 is the intro, song 2 is the verse,
    song 3 is chorus1, song 4 is chorus2, song 5 is the bridge, song 6
    is the break, song 7 is the vamp), and then link them together) which
    copies all the pieces and saves them as song 1, e.g., to get "intro,
    verse, chorus1, verse, chorus2, bridge, verse, break, chorus1, verse,
    chorus2, vamp", you'd link songs 1, 2, 3, 2, 4, 5, 2, 6, 3, 2, 4,
    7, in that order.
    
    Being able to specify the "large scale" structure of a song in terms
    of components like verse, chorus etc. would be useful, especially
    if it could deal with modest variations (e.g., second endings).
    It could save gobs of memory on the MC-500.  I don't know why Roland
    didn't provide this sort of "by reference" capability.  However,
    given everything else the MC-500/S-MRC does, I don't really miss
    this.
                                        
    len.
    

    
    
    
    	Ahh..This answers it very well.The MMT8 "parts" are used as
    verse, chorus, intro, etc. and then linked together into a "song".
    The MC500's link function makes it work like a MMT8..easier,nyet?.

    Well, yes, a little easier on the programmer, but it ends up using
    just as much memory as if you linked the sections (by copying)
    manually.  For me, the major virtue of the MMT-8's approach is that
    by defining the song in terms of pointers to the parts/sections (rather
    than actual copies thereof) you can save considerable memory for
    a song that has any significant amount of repetition or reuse of
    parts/sections.
    
    Oh, I should mention that the S-MRC software supports up to something
    like 225 rhythm patterns per song, while the MRC-500 is limited
    to 100.  S-MRC linked songs must not use more than 225 patterns
    altogether.   For pop stuff, this is not a serious limitation; for
    long jazz pieces it might not be enough.  The S-MRC does have the
    capability of copying from the rhythm track to a phrase track, so
    you *can* build arbitrarily long and varied rhythm parts, but at
    the expense of additional memory compared to the more storage efficient
    drum machine style.
    
    The ability to copy the rhythm track to a phrase track, and then
    to edit that track (e.g., by time shifting) means you can quite easily
    do things like "push" the backbeat for a more agressive feel.  Recall
    that S-MRC editing operations can be applied to a specific range
    of notes (including a single note, e.g., the note corresponding
    to the snare drum) as well as a range of bars.
         
    len.
    

    
    
    Steinberg Pro-24 allows you to name sections Intro Chorus Verse
    etc... and then put them into the master sequencer editor.. 
    
    To structure the song
    
    Then record independant tape-recorder style tracks alongside them..
                                         
    Best of Both worlds
    
    Good what ?
                       
    
    						Paul.

    Hmm -- all this discussion fo sequencer functions and features at 
    the moment may be in danger of becoming a bit too academic. I've
    just been listening to the best demo I've come across, and it was
    produced almost entirely on a D20...
    
    Richard.

    Argh.... I detest Roland-ese...
    
    Can someone explain (in English) the "gate time" argument? The manual
    says the gate time is adjustable from 1 to 64K. 1 to 64K *what*?
    Clock ticks??
    
    Next question: I want to insert a pitch bend starting half way thru
    a note and bending linearly until I reach the end of the note. So
    far, all I've been able to do is insert lotsa little pitch bends.
    What I'd like to do is define a start point, a stop point, and a
    range of 1-127. Can I do that?
    
    Edd

    re .48 - yes, gate time (the time from the NOTE ON to the NOTE OFF)
    is in "CPT" or clock pulse times.  These are *not* MIDI clocks.
    An MC-500 CPT is 1/96 quarter note, so there are 4 MIDI clocks per
    CPT.  For MC-500 step time programming, the gate time can be set
    as a nominal percentage (from 1% to 200%) of the nominal note duration.
    E.g., if your step time resolution is 1/8 notes, and your gate time
    percentage is 80%, then 1/8 note gate times are actually .8 * 48,
    or 38 CPT.  Similarly, a 1/4 (96 CPT) note would be entered with a gate
    time of 77 CPT.  For real time programming, gate times are whatever
    comes in from the keyboard.
    
    There is no way in the MRC-500 software to enter the entire set
    of pitch bend messages corresponding to a continuous pitch bend
    except message by message.  Probably the easiest way to do this
    is to "overdub" the pitch bend in real time.
    
    len.
    

    Some observations after living with the thing for a week. (Some of them
    may be proven wrong with time...)
    
    Basically, I like the sucker a lot. Finally I can edit out the
    mechanical feel often present in a step timed sequence. That alone was
    worth the price of admission. The event editing is the singular most
    satisfying feature in the MC-500. (For those of you for whom this is
    old hat, remember, I was using a QX-7 before.)
    
    The manual is typical Roland. Acccck-pphhhtttt...
    
    Memory could be a problem. For the last 3 days I've been working on a
    sequence of Steely Dan's "King Of The World". When it was done, I found
    I'd sucked up almost 50% of available memory. Not a major problem, but
    surprising. (That included a transferred drum track.)
    
    The rhythm track I find next to useless for programming drums. Someone
    correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you're limited to *1* measure
    per pattern. No wonder len uses so many patterns. I've taken to using
    the HR-16 sequencer and then shipping the whole drum track into one of
    the other tracks on the MC500.(A pain in the tuckus, considering the
    HR-16 step timing bug I found when I first bought the drum machine.)
    
    I'm disappointed by the 2 MIDI OUT ports. For some reason, I thought
    you could run 2 seperate MIDI streams giving you effectively 32 MIDI
    channels. Nope. If you assign MIDI channels 1 through n to OUT1, then
    n+1 through 16 appear at the other. WITH NO MIDI CLOCK!!! Shame on you
    Roland... I may find away to take advantage of that though, so I
    won't bitch too loudly.
    
    Most of the editing is pretty straight forward. I think I found at
    least one inconsistency. Most commands ask for the (1) command, (2)
    source track, (3) range, (4) destination track. The extract command
    gets this bass-ackwards, asking for the destination track first. No
    biggie, but why?
    
    The transpose feature requests you answer a "bias" argument. Bias?
    Why not ask for a number of semitones? (A bias of +12 equals a
    transposition of 1 octave, BTW. It's the osfuscated language I'm
    objecting to.)
    
    The velocity scaling is a step-time lifesaver. Just bang in the notes
    and smooth it out later. Nice...
    
    A particularly irksome feature is the inability to define a "LOGIN.COM"
    type file where you can change some of the defaults permanently. I
    always want SOFT-THRU ON and MIDI CLOCK transmitted. Resetting them
    every time I boot sux, but I can live with that as it's a one-time
    thing at the beginning. The step-time defaults really bug me though.
    Why can't they just stay where I left them?
    
    I imagine many of these things were addressed in the SMRC software
    release.
    
    All in all, I like it ALOT, but it's far from sequencing heaven. (But,
    it *is* alot closer than my QX.)
    
    Edd
    

RE < Note 482.50 by WEFXEM::COTE "No marigolds in the promised land..." >

	Good review, Edd.  I agree with almost everything said.  The MC500 is
pretty easy to learn if you have some familiarity with MIDI sequencing to begin
with.  I was  pretty much up to speed in a week.

	I *do* like the rhythm track, though.  But my situation is such that I
don't currently own a drum 'machine', per se.  I have a drum SGU and the only
way I could program it was from the computor.  It's nice for me, now, to be able
to go upstairs and sit with my wife and program the drum parts (MC500 in lap).
Before, I was stuck in the basement for the whole routine (where the computor
lives).  Sure, I can't *hear* what I'm programming, but I have found I can get 
pretty close to what I want without the auditory feedback.

	One thing I absolutely LOVE is the conductor track.  This is something I
never had before.  The ability to arbitrarily alter tempo is such a pleasure!
In the past, I had to ignore the clock and just play by feel to bring in those
dramatic pauses, timing changes, etc.

	The MC500 is not, as you say, perfect.  I found within a couple of weeks
of using it I was already starting to check into the SMRC stuff.  But that's
a jump financially that will have to wait for further tax returns &^).  For now,
the MC500 does the trick, and does it better than any other tool I have had.

	Dan

    Sounds like you really take a kick in the shorts without macro
    capabilities.  That's one thing that I used extensively on my lowly
    QX5.  Reduces your memory needs drastically.  Also, a lot of the
    other features mentioned are found on the QX5 and not the QX7. 
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the new version of the MC500
    *will* put out 16 MIDI channels on one out and 16 different channels
    on another, giving you virtually 32 MIDI channels.  They should've
    added macro capability, too.  But, I'm no expert.  
    
    Steve

    re: .52
    
    Yep, Yamaha really scored a winnah with the macros. A QX5 with a disc
    drive would be great.
    
    re: .51
    
    The SMRC software all but requires the hardware upgrade also. Increase
    your witholding...
    
    Some continued garpling with the MC this morning (I'm on vacation)
    cured one of my problems. By shutting MIDI CLOCK OUT off (MIDI #9)
    I found I can send program changes to my HR16 *during*  sequence.
    The HR16 won't accept program changes if it sees MIDI clock, but if
    the drum parts are being generated from the MC500, I don't need MIDI
    clock for the HR. Shutting the clock off also cured the step-time entry
    booger on the HR. Still a band-aid though, the HR shouldn't outta do
    that...
    
    Edd

    I have a question.
    
    Please believe me that I ask it not to question your buying decision,
    but rather to enlighten me from ignorance.
    
    An MC-500 MK-II with the SMRC software is like mucho bucks right?
    
    Is it not true that you could probably get an Atari 1040ST with a
    sequencer package for the same price?  I would think that by virtue
    of having a better display medium (video screen) you'd have 
    something perhaps more powerful?
    
    Why would you buy an MC-500 over a PC+sequencer for non-live work?
    
    Does the SMRC sw give you stuff not available on PC sequencers?
    
    	db

RE < Note 482.54 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "Conliberative" >

	I bought my MC500 precisely BECAUSE of its performance capability.  I 
had (and still have, actually) a good performance sequencer that was missing a 
few important features.  What I got when I bought the MC500 (used) was a
performance sequencer with EVERYTHING I need to perform - and I got a better
sequencer (in many ways) than the software-based package I was using.  Granted,
there ARE things I wish the MC500 had, like macro capability, but I saw that
(on the Commodore KCS, anyway) as simply a way to save on memory.  The MC500 has
more memory than I have ever needed on a per-song basis.

	I realize this doesn't exactly answer your question.  Price-wise, I
couldn't find the computor I would have liked (an Atari ST - with essentials)
for the price I paid for my MC500 (used).  Even if I could have gotten the same
price, I still would have needed to buy the software.  Yes, you get so much more
than simply a sequencer when you go with a computor, but I never use the 
computor I have for anything more than a sequencer (and occasional editor/
librarian).

	Dan

    Same here, for the price, an ST was outta the question.
    
    Actually, if it came down to a MC500 MKII with the SMRC software
    at retail, I'd still be using my QX. It's too rich for my blood.
    
    The UI on most software packages (sequencing or anything else for that
    matter) bugs me no end. I detest "point and grunt" computing with it's
    WIMP (Windows, Icons, Menues and Pointers) interface. Two minutes with
    a Macintosh and I'm ready to shuck this whole career and go back to
    banking. Gimme a  "$" prompt. Even the alpha dial on the MC insults me.
    I'm memorizing the commands (I made a mistake in an earlier reply) so
    I can go directly to where I want to go. Aja (my cat) makes sure there
    are no mice in my house and it's my duty to help...
    
    Good question, Dave.
    
    Edd

    re -? 
    
    
    There is a QX5 with a Floppy Disk Drive. Would you beleive the 
    QX5 FD ?
    
    					Paul...
    
    					(Wimped out)

    > for the price, an ST was outta the question
    
    ????
    
    You can get a used ST for about $600 less than just the MC MK II hardware.
    
    	db

RE< Note 482.58 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "Conliberative" >

	I don't have the MK II upgrade, just the MC500 MK I.  It came with
the performance software and cost me less than an ST would have (based on
the prices I have seen them going for used).

	Dan

    ...another selling point for the MC (for me) was that it's become the
    default amongst the people I'm most likely to trade sequences with.
    (len, Dave Dreher)
    
    There's something oh so convenient about bringing a disc to LERDS-BIM
    instead of hauling around a sequencer and doing real-time dumps.
    
    Now, if they'd only buy a couple of TX81Zs...
    
    Edd

    
    
    I had the same questions a couple of months ago (pc vs dedicated
    sequencer).  I ended up with a 520ST I bought used, had a 
    1 meg upgrade done, and bought Master Tracks Pro.  All for
    a bit over $800.  The ST also had tons of software that came with
    it that I'll never use and plan on selling, so I'll recoup a
    bit of the initial money ($400) that I spent on it.
    
    And besides, the MC500 can't play hockey! :^)
    
    Ralph
    

  
    >      And besides, the MC500 can't play hockey! :^)
     
    And it can't print your manuscript. (Or can it?)
    
    As a real novice composer I really can't imagine doing anything
    on a teensy weensy display. I need to see the whole thing just to
    know where I am. MTP lets me do this. 
    
    Using my MAC, if I forget the controller number for something, I
    just pop up my desk accessory notepad and get it from there, along
    with any other notes I care to add. I have visual editing of patches
    and access to a librarian, and with the use of the mouse I can draw
    conductor track or controller changes.
    
    Call this WIMPY if you like but I wouldn't swap the UI for anything,
    including the $ prompt I see at work every day.
    
    Sure, there's a place for hardware sequencers if you have to cart
    them around to gigs, but apart from the cost difference, if you
    want flexibility and functionality, the s/w route has a lot to offer.
    
    Ken
    

As for me, I can't imagine working with music using a display that was not in
musical notation.  I learned music by how it looks and sounds, and it was a big
step getting away from the names of the notes.  Just like when you are learning
a foreign language and there is that big step when you stop thinking in your
native language and then translating, but you actually start thinking in the
new language.  Or if you are learning morse code and you start hearing whole
letters instead of dots and dashes, or whole words instead of letters.

I don't see dedicated sequencers with their tiny displays providing a proper
musical presentation of what is going on.  (Like show me all the parts at once
so I can see the relationships.)

>I don't see dedicated sequencers with their tiny displays providing a proper
>musical presentation of what is going on.  (Like show me all the parts at once
>so I can see the relationships.)


Agreed.  Unfortunately, even a lot of SW sequencers only allow you to look
at the music a track at a time (part at a time).  MTP is an example.
I use it and really like a lot of features but the lack of musical notation
and multi-track/part viewing and editing is a bummer.

Chad

I also don't like the itsy bitsy displays.

Chad who_has_a_19_inch_monitor_on_his_VAXstation!_Those who like hw_sequencers
     _probably_have_15_inch_monitors!!! :-) :-)

    Most of the things Edd complains about have been fixed in the S-MRC
    software, but he's right, you really do need the memory upgrade
    for this software to be usable.  It does run on a nonupgraded MC-500,
    but with atrocious performance, and some things just don't work. 
        
    On the subject of dedicated/hardware vs. pc-based/software sequencers,
    well, now that I've got 2.5 MB on my Amiga, maybe I'll reconsider, but
    when I bought my MC-500 the software sequencers available on any
    machine were pretty lame, and only recently has anything decent become
    available for the Amiga.  But the MC-500 is a nice compact unit
    that does almost everything I need.
    
    Be that as it may, people should do whatever they think is best
    for themselves.  I'm getting a little weary of this continual
    "my way is best, if you do it different you're dumb" "discussion".
    Hey, different strokes for different folks, you know?
    
    len.
    

>    Be that as it may, people should do whatever they think is best
>    for themselves.  I'm getting a little weary of this continual
>    "my way is best, if you do it different you're dumb" "discussion".
    
    I'll assume that you weren't referring to me, but I want to
    express something.
    
    I asked why buy a MC instead of a PC not because I thought doing so was
    dumb but because the reasons weren't apparent to me but I  PRESUMED
    there were good reasons for it and I wanted to know them.
    
    After all, at lesat 3 smart folks whom I regard to be very hip MIDI
    users have one.
    
    What I'm saying is that "Why did you do that?" can be a legitimate
    question and doesn't imply "Why did you do a dumb thing like that?"
    
    	db

    No, it wasn't the question, but the replies that had the tone of
    "it's obvious that a pc-based sequencer is superior to a dedicated
    hardware sequencer with those tiny little displays that only step
    time programming computer nerds could possibly love".
    
    I didn't hear you ask "why did you do a dumb thing like that"; what I
    heard was some others reply "I did this because the other way is dumb".
    Note that I take "more expensive than I want to pay" to be a euphemism
    for "dumb".
    
    len.
     

	I don't know if this should be here or in the TX81Z note...

	I tried to do a bulk dump of the TX81Z into my MC500 last weekend and
met nothing but failure.  I checked and rechecked everything and still couldn't 
get it right.  I switched over to my Matrix 6R and tried the bulk dump and had 
no problem.  Back to the TZ (using the same cable) and no luck.

	I even fired up a MIDI Monitor program on the Commodore and hooked it
up to the MC500's soft thru just to be sure the data was passing through.  It 
was.

	- 	The TZ's EXCLUSIVE switch was set to on
	- 	The MC500 picked up single patch data, but not bulk data
	- 	The Matrix-6R's bulk dump is, I believe, a good deal
		larger than the TX81Z's (29K bytes (M6R) vs. 4K bytes (TZ)

	Anyone got a clue?  The next thing I think I'll try is having the MC500
request the bulk dump.

	Dan

    Mine (MRB-500 librarian, MC-500, and TZs) works OK *ONLY* if the
    connection between the TZ OUT and the MC-500 IN is NOT routed
    through the THRU port of my Mirage.
    
    Having figured that out, I've had no problems. I initiate the procedure
    from the TZ, while the MC-500 is in the "wait" state.
    
    I believe it was MODE 1 on the MC. (I forget really, but the MRB manual
    is correct, I remember that much...)
    
    Are you using MRB???
    
    Edd

RE < Note 482.69 by WEFXEM::COTE "We're gonna have a wing-ding!" >

	No MRB - only the MRC software that came wif the unit.

	Dan

    Tell me what you do and I'll try to duplicate it....
    
    Edd

RE < Note 482.71 by WEFXEM::COTE "We're gonna have a wing-ding!" >

>    Tell me what you do and I'll try to duplicate it....

	-	Boot MRC-500 Software on MC500
	-	Plug MIDI OUT of TZ to MIDI IN of MC500
	-	Prepare MC500 to record a sequence
	-	Prepare TX to send Bulk Dump (Utility Menu, MIDI submenu)
	-	Start MC500 Recording
	-	After intial 8 beat countoff completes, start TZ dump procedure
	-	When TZ dump completes, stop MC500 
	-	Using MICROSCOPE MODE on MC500, verify presence of data
	-	If no data, grab top of head and pull out hair (optional)

	Dan

    I got the exact results as you; worked OK for single voices but
    not on bank dumps. (No data at all recorded.)
    
    I did learn something I hadn't realized about the TZ. I wasn't aware
    you could dump the ROM banks (A-D) in addition to the RAM (I) bank.
    If you aren't aware how, simply press "NO" where you'd press "YES"
    to start the dump and you'll cycle thru the banks....
    
    Edd

RE < Note 482.73 by WEFXEM::COTE "We're gonna have a wing-ding!" >

	Yes, I read about that the other day (about dumping other banks) when I 
was having trouble with this whole issue.

	My guess is that it has to do with the amount of data (4K bytes).  I do
recall reading somewhere in the MC500's wonderful (ahem) manual that the size 
of sysex was limited (i.e., you couldn't dump a DX7, etc...).  My confusion 
comes from the ability to dump the memory of my Matrix 6R without a hitch.  
That's 100 patches that have a fairly complicated architecture (at least as many
data elements as the TZ, I'd think), not to mention the 50 Splits and global 
parameters.  I recieved the SYSEX implementation book from Oberheim a few weeks 
back and have had somewhat of a difficult time deciphering it (a problem I have
NOT had with Yamaha documentation concerning Sysex, BTW).  As near as I can 
tell, it sends out 29K bytes or 15K bytes, depending on how you read it.  Either
way, that's more than 4,096 bytes (as best I can tell - it's been a while since 
I took a math course...).

	Here's the text from the M6R:

	"When a DUMP ALL command is recieved (Code 0), the M-6 will dump all
	its internal data as separate patches, splits and master parameter 	
	blocks.  This means that each patch in the stream will have its own
	System Exclusive header and EOX command...

	"The total number of bytes transmitted in response to the dump all
	command is approximately 29K bytes, including headers, checksums 
	and EOX marks.  It should be noted that all data (excluding headers,
	checksums and EOX marks) is transmitted nybble-wise, so judicious
	use of space could store all the transmitted data in as little as 15K
	bytes."

	I think I may have answered my own questions now as to why the M6R dump
worked and why the TZ one didn't.  It looks like, as stated above, that the DUMP
ALL command works in the same way as if you would go on an do a SINGLE patch 
dump successively for each patch.  That is probably why the MC500 didn't refuse
the massive dump (although it slowed down to a stop while the dump is going on).

	O.K...  That question appears to be answered (thanks Edd for the help).

	For curiosity sake, anyone know how big a DX7 dump is?  Anyone know the
limit the MC500 will accept on a Sysex stream?

	Dan

    I noticed the MC500 slowed right down for the duration of the TZ dump.
    
    The limit isn't a function of the MC-500, but rather one of the MRC
    software. The MRB never blinked for the TZ dumps...
    
    Edd

A single DX7 bank dump (32 voices) is 4104 bytes.

Steph

    Well, didn't I go and find what appears to be a nasty old bug in the
    MRC software...
    
    Thanks to Dan Eaton, I made the quantum leap into sys-ex programming.
    
    Even though it would take some typing, I figured I could load up all
    the parameters for a patch at the beginning of a sequence. My first
    attempt was to make a loooooooong sys-ex string with all the parameters
    sandwiched between F0 and F7. That didn't work, but since I'm not sure
    if the spec says it should, I didn't worry.
    
    Second pass consisted of putting the sys-ex message for a single
    parameter on a seperate CPT on the MC-500. This worked, but with
    18 possible patches to load I could be a half a dozen bars into the
    song before I'm done loading. So, I piled all the sys-ex messages onto 
    1 CPT. No problem. Now the bug appears. I can't edit but 1 sys-ex
    string. The MC-500 recognizes there is more than 1 event on the CPT,
    indicated by an "*". But it will only display one in "Change Event"
    under microscope mode. And not always the same one.
    
    Ideas?
    
    Edd

Edd,

I'm having the same problems - I'm very curious as to the answer! Can 
anybody help?

-Dan (new Mark II owner for the last 48 hours)

RE < Note 482.77 by DCSVAX::COTE "OK, who wants a Tangwich???" >

	... back after training in BUO...

	How many synths are you trying to have sysex messages loaded into
for a song?  Is this just for the TZ or is it for a number of synths?

	Did you try to enter all the Sysex manually or did you have the synth(s)
transmit the Sysex for you?

	Dan

    Dan - are you saying the Mark II ("SMRC") software has the same
    bug?
    
    len (Mark II owner).
    

    I was trying to tweak 3 or parameters on 1 patch on a TX81Z.
    
    I loaded them in by hand on separate CPTs and then moved them all on
    to one CPT. After doing so, I can't edit but one string...
    
    Edd

RE < Note 482.81 by WEFXEM::COTE "There, but for the fins, go I..." >

	I don't know anything about the MC500 error you're encountering, but...

	Have you found a workaround?  What if you simply did the changes on the
TZ, and send the patch from the TZ into the MC500?  The end result would be the 
same, right?  You'd need to reserve a memory slot for the tweaked sound in order
to transmit it (by setting SysEx sw 'on' and simly selecting that patch via the
front panel), but you could wipe it away once you had the patch stored on the
sequencer.

	If there's only three sysex messages, is there a problem with putting 
them on separate CPT's?  Or are you trying to work out the principal for a time
when you may have many tweaks (such that would tie up the sequence)?

	Dan

    Yeah, basically it's a matter of principle now. I can put n notes
    on a single CPT and edit any one of them. I want to be able to do
    the same thing with sys-ex.
    
    Edd

    Well, since there are 96 CPTs per quarter note, and you could put
    one SysEx message per CPT to retain editability, you could probably
    squeeze in 768 SysEx messages into the 2 bars of count-in (you *do*
    program two bars of count-in, don't you?) before the sequence actually
    starts...
    
    And they *will* get transmitted in time if you're playing at any
    halfway reasonable tempo.
    
    Won't they?
    
    len.
    

    The question, of course, is why can't I do it?
    
    Did you try it on the SRMC software?
    
    Edd

    What's a CPT?

    Dully yours,

-b

RE < Note 482.86 by CSOA1::SCHAFER "Brad - boycott hell." >

    What's a CPT?

	"Clock Pulse Time" (right?)

    re .87 re .86 - right, CPT = clock pulse time (or clock pulse tick,
    if you're so inclined).  It's the MC-500's smallest resolvable unit
    of time.
    
    I did a little quick calculating, and at 120 BPM, 1 CPT is enough
    time for 15 bytes of MIDI data.
    
    And to answer Edd's question, the reason you can't do what you
    want is because Roland screwed up.  Given that the bug exists,
    the best workaround seems to be to put the SysEx messages on distinct
    CPTs far enough apart to allow the messages enough time to get out.
    Even if you stack them up on the same CPT (have you verified that
    they get transmitted properly, even if you can't edit them?), they
    still have to go out serially, so you don't gain anything but a
    little conceptual cleanliness.
    
    len.
    

    I want to get an MC-500 Mark II, and I'm looking for feedback on prices
    and availability. The lowest I've been quoted by a local store is
    $1250. I know a lot of people in this conference buy through
    mail-order. Considering the level of service I've received from stores
    around here, I'm considering this route.
    
    Does anyone have current price quotes, or can you point me to a source
    that I should check out? Other grievances that you want to air on this
    subject?
    
    - Ram

Hi Ram,

I paid $1300 a couple months back (no sales tax). 
Wurlitzer/Portsmouth.

-Dan

    I finally got an MC-500 Mk II. The thing is nice, no doubt about it.
    There must have been a complete rewrite of the documentation, because
    even that is not bad. It has a complete table of contents and fairly
    good index (with page numbers, Len!), and extensive cross-referencing
    througout the manual. So far I have been able to figure out fairly
    quickly everything I have needed to do. (By the way, I got version 2.0
    of the S-MRC software, which includes the performance mode.)
    
    This thing has one strange quirk that I just can't figure out. It will
    transmit all Control Change commands, but will only record Control
    Change commands with parameters up to 120. My D-10 responds to CC 121
    as Reset All Controllers, and I routinely send it on all channels at the
    beginning of every sequence to make sure everything is set up right.
    When I was converting my stuff over to the MC-500 from the MMT-8 I had
    to go in and hand enter these events because the MC-500 would filter
    them out. Not a big deal, but I can't figure out why on earth they
    wouldn't allow it to record all of the CC commands.
    
    - Ram

    Yes, the manual is a complete rewrite, and the index is semiuseful,
    but my copy is already heavily annotated (mostly with questions).
    When you start trying to take full advantage of all its features,
    you'll find the manual maddeningly incomplete, and the index virtually
    useless.
    
    Hmm, I'll have to see what it takes to upgrade to version 2.0 of the
    S-MRC software.
    
    len.
    

    There was a discussion in here sometime back on recording SYSEX data on
    the MC-500 that never reached a real conclusion. Someone also entered a
    similar question in the MMT-8 note that never got a reply. I'm
    currently trying to so SYSEX dumps from a D-10 and an FB01 to the
    MC-500, and the only thing it seems to record is the start of each
    command string. Is something really get recorded that I can't see in
    the Microscope mode? Someone mentioned sometime back that you may
    really need the MRB (bulk librarian) software to do dumps to the
    MC-500. Any thoughts on whether this is true or not?
    
    The bottom line is, has anybody out there figured out how to use the
    MC-500 to do SYSEX dumps without the MRB software?
    
    - Ram

    If there is an asterick next to the first visible byte displayed in
    microscope mode, then there IS more than you can see, which was the
    very crux of my problem posted sometime ago. It's there, but you can't
    get at it! (Well, *something* is there. Whether it's the entire dump or
    not is still up in the air.)
    
    Edd

    So this is something the MMT8 can do that the MC500 can't? 
    
    I bought a D10 off a bloke who transferred SYSEXE to and from each
    of a D10, an MC500 and an ATARI in turn. Used the MC500 live, and the
    ATARI at home. I suppose I ought to find out if he had the special
    software running on it, if only to prevent this note being a total
    waste of time.
    
    Richard.

    No - the way you examine SysEx data in microscope mode is to hold down
    the shift key while you twirl the alpha dial.  RTFM.  I guess Roland
    figured it was a feature to "hide" the SysEx stuff.
    
    Note that the asterisk doesn't mean the presence of SysEx data - it
    means there's more stuff on that CPT, visible or "invisible".
    
    len.
    

	Although I haven't tried it, I wonder whether you could get at the 
"hidden" data (represented by the asteric) by changing the clock pulse for
that particular string.  Then after you moved it (be careful to keep it in 
sequence), you simply search (by holding down the shift key in microscope mode,
as Len said) for the next SYSEX command string.

	Of course, you may be running into the inherant difficulties of the
MC500.  If you have the original MC500, you can't fit certain SYSEX dumps
into internal memory.  I can't do a bulk dump of the TX81Z because it's
something like 4,096 bytes and the MC500 can't take that much.  I do beleive,
however, you can fit a single patch in, though (but don't quote me).  I
don't know whether the mark II version fixed this limitation.

	I have found that sending small command strings from the MC500 GREATLY 
extends the usefulness of my TX81Z.  A typical scenario for me on a song is the 
following: (Assume the TX81Z is handling bass and one other instrument)

At beginning of song:	Patch change 01 (A performance setup with bass 
					(monophonic) and one other instrument
					(7 note polyphony).)

Shortly thereafter:	SYSEX COMMAND	(Select voice for second instrument.
					This usually involves two commands,
					because TX81Z holds more than 128
					patches.  The first command sets the
					MSB, the second sets the LSB.)

Another:		SYSEX COMMAND	(This command sets the volume for the
					second instrument.)

Finally:		SYSEX COMMAND	(This command sets the resets the mode
					that the TX81Z is in (it is currently 
					in Performance Edit mode due to the
					content of the preceding commands).  I
					use this last command to pave the way 
					for the possibility of the next command 
					being a "patch change" command.  If
					I don't reset here, and I send a patch 
					change command later, it will be 
					ignored.)

	Dan

    I believe I tried the "hold the shift key" to no avail...
    
    I had constructed a series of sys-ex msgs. on consecutive CPTs, then 
    moved them all to the same CPT. At that point, I couldn't find a way
    to examine past the first one displayed on the screen.
    
    I hate MIDI. Anyone want everything? Cheap...
    
    Edd

RE < Note 482.98 by WEFXEM::COTE "Bain Dramaged" >

>    I believe I tried the "hold the shift key" to no avail...

	No, the hold the shift key thing is just to find where the sysex cluster
is.  Try my suggestion of pulling the Sysex cluster apart (using the "change 
clock pulse command #4) and see if the SYSEX commands still do the job.

	The reason I suggest this is because one night a week or so ago I found 
some spurious pitch bend commands (or were they mod wheel, I forget) in a
sequence i had done some time ago.  I started deleting ones that had the
asteric and, knowing once I deleted one, another would still be there, I'd
toggle back to delete the others.  If you break up the cluster into individual
clocks, you should get around the problem (unless they are time-dependent).

	Dan
    

    Yeah, that's right. I, um, I knew that...
    
    But I STILL can't examine multiple sys-exoids stacked on the same
    CPT...
    
    Edd

    re .97
    
    You don't need to send SYSEX to change a voice on a TX81Z.  Just
    send a program change on the channel that you want to change the
    voice for.
    
    Say your performance sets up the bass on ch 5, one note, and something
    else on ch 6, 7 notes.  And you want to change the voice on ch 6,
    leaving everything else the same.  You just send a Program Change
    command on ch 6.  (You are evidently in map mode, so you send a
    map entry number rather than a real voice number.)

    Yebbut the beauty of sysex is it's independent of the patches on the
    synth, so your sequence always sounds the same regardless of whether
    you've added a little more 'squelch' to your 'frog under mallet' patch
    since you composed the tune.
    
    Richard.

    Well, that's a great way to eat up patches, especially if you need
    lots of variations on a similar patch.
    
    ...and, just how DOES one send a PG change to a specific channel in
    a TZ performance? I tried and couldn't get it to work. Have you
    actually done this???
    
    Edd

    In summary:
    
    1. The MC-500 probably is recording the SYSEX dumps, but you don't see
    all of the data in normal microscope mode. What you see is one SYSEX
    command with an * beside it, and there is some quantity of data buried
    behind that.
    
    2. If you hold down the shift key while you turn the alpha dial this
    other data will appear (I could find no mention of this feature, or
    anything to do with SYSEX really, in the manual - I take back what I
    said earlier about how good it is.).
    
    3. There seems to be some doubt about whether you can edit it or not,
    and there is a suggestion to try moving the first data that appears to
    another CPT and see if the next level pops up.
    
    The only thing I really care about is whether I am getting reliable
    dumps, but I will check out all of this. Thanks for the help.
    
    - Ram

    It's my experience that point 2 in your summary doesn't work.
    
    Holding shift and spinning the dial will allow you to find the first
    bytes only. (Not holding shift displays note datums only.)
    
    Please someone, tell me I'm wrong!
    
    Edd

RE < Note 482.105 by DCSVAX::COTE "Bain Dramaged" >

	I agree with your disagreement of number 2 of Ram's summary.

	Dan

>    Holding shift and spinning the dial will allow you to find the first
>    bytes only. (Not holding shift displays note datums only.)
    
    Then what's the difference between holding the shift and setting the
    view window to include SYSEX data? Maybe this is a V2.0 only feature,
    but in Microscope mode I can specify the characteristics of the "view
    window" to select which channel information I want to see, what type of
    MIDI data (notes, pitch bend, controller, program change, SYSEX, etc).
    I thought the implication of Len's earlier reply was that if I had
    selected the view window to include SYSEX data, *then* held down the
    shift key as I spun the alpha dial, I would see the hidden SYSEX data.
    
    I guess the only way to find out for sure is to experiment with this
    some more, unless Len knows more than he is letting on (or maybe this
    conference is just a lower priority than defining what EMA is - come on
    Len, fess up).
    
>    Please someone, tell me I'm wrong!
    
    I'd love to be able to :-)  I'll let you know what happens after some
    more lab work.
    
    - Ram    
    

    V1 doesn't appear to have this feature.
    
    Edd

    OK, I've got it figured out. Apparently the V2 software has been
    improved on this count. Here's the procedure I used to dump the D-10:
    
    1. Put the MC-500 in stand-by mode, MIDI clock set to INTERNAL. Set for
    Real Time recording (tempo doesn't matter, as I will explain later) and
    press RECORD. It's now waiting for you to press PLAY to to start
    recording.
    
    2. Go into Data Transfer mode on the D-10, select One-Way Dump, All.
    It will display Sure?
    
    3. Press PLAY on the MC-500 and wait for the 8 beat countdown to
    complete.
    
    4. Press ENTER on the D-10. It will say "dumping". Wait about a minute,
    it will say "dump complete".
    
    5. Press STOP on the MC-500.
    
    
    That's it - now to see what you've got. Go into Microscope mode on the
    MC-500, and set the View Field to include SYSEX data. Start scanning
    through the recorded data, and about every half-beat you will see the
    start of a SYSEX command (no asterisk beside it). I had gotten this far
    before - now here's the magic:
    
    Go into uEdit/Change mode, then start using the left and right arrow
    keys to scroll through the data. It's storing 256 bytes on one CPT. As
    you scroll through this block the byte number will be displayed in the
    left of the display, and five or six bytes at a time of hex data will
    appear to the right. You can modify any byte at will. If you exit
    Change mode you will again see only the top 5-6 bytes in the block on
    that CPT. If you want you can move the block to another CPT, but the
    whole block moves, not just the top row.
    
    It doesn't seem to matter what you set the song tempo to, because it
    seems to just fill up one 256 block and then move on to the next one at
    whatever CPT happens to be up at the time. The dump I recorded was 44K.
    I filed it to disk, loaded it back in, and dumped it back to the D-10
    (pretty much the reverse procedure on the D-10, just make sure the
    Memory Protect is OFF).
    
    There may be a cleaner or more efficient way to do this, but the bottom
    line is that it works fine, and Roland seems to have improved this
    aspect of the software. Thanks for the leads I got here, I couldn't
    have figured it out otherwise.
    
    - Ram (a happy camper)

    re .103, Program Changes to TX81Z.
    
    I do this all the time.
    
    Go to the Midi Controls section, and step down until you come to
    the parameter "P. change".  This has three possible values, "off",
    "com", and "ind".
    
    "off" means that Program Change commands are ignored.
    "com" (combined) means that all voices change together.
    "ind" (independant) means that each voice is set independantly.
    
    You want this set to "ind".
    
    Given that, go to the factory performance "Ice Cream".  This has two
    voices, both assigned to channel 1.  Send program changes on ch 1 and
    you will see the two voices changing together.  Then edit the
    performance so that the second voice listens on ch 2 instead.  Now
    send PC on ch 1 and you will see only one of the voices change.
    Send some PC on ch 2 and you will see the other voice change.
    
    Piece of cake.  (after one has RTFM)

    It may be the case that the V2 manual doesn't mention the shift/alpha
    dial thing to view SysEx data.  It *is* in the V1 manual, as that's how
    I found out about it.  Also, I believe the alpha dial doesn't scroll
    you through the bytes of the SysEx message; you use the left and right
    arrow keys to do that.  The alpha dial gets you to the first byte of
    each SysEx message.  You should be able to see SysEx messages stacked
    on the same CPT, using the alpha dial.  If you can't (and Edd says he
    can't, and I believe him), that's a bug.  I don't know if the V2
    software fixes this.  I've never put more than one SysEx message per
    CPT.
    
    len.
    

RE < Note 482.110 by 4GL::DICKSON "You could be an ocarina salesman" >

	I'm glad to know that this works this way.  Now that you've explained 
it, I think I remember finding that in the manual (sure, Dan, sure).  I believe 
I avoided it for some time because I wanted to have equal access to performances 
*and* individual patches (but now that I use the TZ for bass all the time, its 
not an issue).  In "IND" mode, aren't you stuck in a single performance setup?  
Or is it that if you send a patch change on the "control channel" (for me, its 
MIDI channel 5) it will change the performance setup?

	The only other problem I have with the procedure you outlined is that I 
get schizo when I have to setup too many "custom system setups" (like a patch 
map).  Yes, I have done it for the first pg number as it gets me to the first 
performance setup as opposed to the first patch, but I'd prefer to leave it at 
that, allowing the rest of the PG commands to access their actual patches.  
I have this railing fear that someone's going to break into my house, walk up to
my TZ, and wipe out my customization work.  Or something like that 8^).  I 
suppose If I just kept an updated dump of all customization data, I'd alleviate
this fear.  (But then again, that data vandal could also steal my sysex disk(s),
too!).

	On a similar vein to the "IND" mode, I have recently noticed that 
individual channels in the performance setup respond to CC7 (MIDI Volume) 
separately.  It is a lot quicker to enter CC7 data on the channel you want than 
it is to enter the sysex to accomplish the same thing.

	Dan

    Ya know, I could swear I tried that and it didn't work. I knew about
    the MIDI set-up parameters and thought I tried it. It just seems so
    intuituve. Your description is exactly what I would have, and do
    believe I, tried.
    
    Hmmm, go figure.
    
    Edd (RTFM? NFW!!!)

    A performance definition carries its *initial* voice assignments with
    it, so when you select a perf, all voices are set accordingly.  PC's
    after that change the voices within the performance, as steered by the
    channel assignments within the perf.
    
    If you then send another perf selection (through the map or some other
    way), then all the voices will change at once, to whatever the new
    perf says.

RE < Note 482.114 by 4GL::DICKSON "You could be an ocarina salesman" >

	If you're responding to me, I think that is what I said.  It seems like
it will all hinge on the channel assignments.  The only "gotcha" I can see is
that you need to make sure you don't have a performance setup in which one of 
the voices is on the same channel as the "control Channel" (as set up in the 
MIDI menu).  

	Dan

    I don't think that is a problem.  I regularly have one of the
    instrument channels the same as the control channel.  The only thing to
    watch out for is that your program map doesn't turn a Pgm Change into a
    Perf change on that channel.

RE < Note 482.116 by 4GL::DICKSON "You could be an ocarina salesman" >

	I just tried this this morning after digging through the ice to find my 
car (a little local color there).  It worked as you said (you knew that).  It
would faithfully change the patch in the performance setup, and if the map was 
set to call a performance for any given PC, it would change the performance
entirely.  I'd say you'd probably want to pick the most useless ROM patch (say,
for instance, fuzz piano?) and set the map to hit a performance memory on that 
call.

	Thanks for the info!  Now I won't have quite so many sysex commands to
enter.

	Dan

    I just discovered a wonderful thing about the MC-500 this morning:
    
    *** It automatically computes the checksum for SYSEX commands!!! ***
    
    This may be old news to some of you, but I haven't seen it mentioned
    elsewhere in this note. I was trying to create some SYSEX commands to
    initialize an MT-32, using info from the MT-32 note, and didn't have a
    hex calculator on me, so I was at a loss for how to compute the
    checksum. I just entered 00 in the place the checksum should go, and
    voila! When I went back and looked at the string I had created the
    proper checksum had been inserted in the last byte, replacing the 00.
    
    I don't know if this checksum calculation is part of the MIDI standard
    or is a Roland-ism. But not having to do this foolishness manually
    makes the use of SYSEX a lot more appealing (although I have to admit I
    still find it pretty unappealing, and intend to avoid it as much as
    possible).
    
    - Ram

A friend who teaches at my old HS uses the MC500 and MC500mkII (with that SM 
software) and I was talking with him this morning and recommended to hime
he automate his mixes a little bit more (they are doing a top 40 concert this
spring and are sequencing about alf the tunes).  I mentioned that CC7 would
be good for him.  He was wondering how he would be able to apply CC7 and
manipulate it on the MC500 using the SM :-) software.  He hates the manual
and doesn't have 10000000 hours to sort it out.

HOw does that work?  Is there any way on the MC500 to add Midid CC events
to a track?

thanks

Chad

>HOw does that work?  Is there any way on the MC500 to add Midid CC events
>to a track?

	Real easy.  Go into Microscope edit mode.  Go to the clock step that
you want to add the CC7 (usually at the beginning).  Press EDIT button.  Use
alpha wheel to find "INSERT Event" (I think you could also press "3" on the
numeric keypad).  Hit return.  Scroll through the types of events using alpha
wheel (numeric pad won't work here) until you find CC.  Hit return.  Choose
the channel <RET>, enter 7 <RET>, enter the volume value <RET>.  I can't
recall if you have to enter the value in hex or not, probably not.

	That's the way its done on the original MRC500 software.

	Dan

Dan,  thanks for the hint.

Is there a way to add lots of events in real time and have them be merged in?

I know on my ST with Notator there is the real time midi generator screen
with 16 virtual sliders that will merge their output with any tracks you
specify in real time -- something like that is what I am after.  

Inserting individual events when automating isn't so interesting...

thanks


Chad

> Is there a way to add lots of events in real time and have them be merged in?
    
    Your note is kind of confusing to me, so let me try to clarify the
    question I think you are asking. You have some MIDI data already
    recorded on some track, and you want to record some new data in real
    time and have it merged into the existing data.
    
    If that's what you are trying to do, there are at least two ways to do
    this on an MC-500. First of all, you can record the new data onto a
    different track, and then merge the second track into the first. I
    don't want to go into all of the details of how to record a track, it's
    all there in the manual. There is an EDIT function (from the standby
    mode press EDIT - 4 - ENTER) which merges one track into another.
    
    Another way to accomplish this is to re-record the original track using
    MERGE mode recording. This is done by selecting RECORD, and before you
    hit PLAY, spin the alpha dial to change the display from REPLACE mode
    to MERGE mode. At least, I think that's how the manual says to do it.
    It definitely says the MC-500 supports real time merging of new data
    into an existing track. I've never used this feature because personally
    I feel it's safer to record a new track, make sure you've got it right,
    and then do the merge.
    
    	- Ram

The answers so far have been useful but let me restate what I am asking.

Will the MC500 with Super-MRC software or whatever it is called allow me
to generate and control Midi Continuous Controller messages and have them 
merge into a track.  Are there features that allow Mix automation?

Thanks

Chad

RE < Note 482.123 by NORGE::CHAD "Ich glaube Ich t�te Ich h�tte" >

>Will the MC500 with Super-MRC software or whatever it is called allow me
>to generate and control Midi Continuous Controller messages and have them 
>merge into a track.  Are there features that allow Mix automation?

	I only know the original MRC500 software, so here's my response...

	You need an external input to generate CC messages on the fly.  I
think I heard somewhere that the Super MRC can take ANY CC message and convert
it to ANY OTHER CC message, but don't quote me.  Unless the SMRC has changed
in this respect, you still need an external input (CC7 pedal, mod wheel if it
translates, etc.).  Merging is standard in most any sequencer worth its salt.

	Dan

    Yep, you can remap any controller to any other controller with the S-MRC
    software.  I think you can even remap NOTE ONs to a CC message.
    
    Almost all keyboards have bend levers, so you could get the "raw
    material" in via the bend lever and then remap it.  If necessary
    you could thin the messages and expand/contract the value range
    using other S-MRC editing features.  It might be a little baroque
    (maybe even a little "broke") but you can get there eventually...
    
    len.
    

    I heard recently (and just had it confirmed by a dealer) that Roland
    will soon be releasing a new software package for the MC-500 that
    allows it to use MIDI files generated by PC-based sequencers. It will
    supposedly be called S-MRM, and will list for about $150. From what I
    was told it is a package that permits the MC-500 to convert disks
    containing MIDI files into MC-500 format files, which can then be
    processed by S-MRC, and will also convert MC-500 format files to MIDI.
    It also can format disks for IBM PC's and the like.
    
    From what I was told about this it has been tested on IBM PC's and I
    think Atari's. The dealer said someone at the distributer had some
    problems using disks from a Mac, but it wasn't clear if this was
    something Roland was fixing. My understanding is that when you're
    moving stuff from MC-500 to MIDI file it puts each MIDI channel on a
    separate track (1-16). If you're going the other way it puts them onto
    tracks 1-5 in a somewhat arbitrary way. I don't know any more about it
    than that.
    
    It obviously would have been nicer if the S-MRC software could have
    read and written the disks directly without the conversion step, but I
    guess that would be asking to much. In any case, if this is something
    you would find useful, check it out with a dealer.
    
    - Ram

While we're talking about things we'd like from an MC-500:

I wish there was a way to hook up some kind of hard disk drive to the 
sequencer so that you could compose sets "on the fly" from your entire 
catalog of songs.

I can't tell you how many times I've gotten a request for a song that 
wasn't on the current S-MRP performance floppy. ("Sure, we can play 
that tune for you - NEXT set....")

-Dan

    "to tracks 1-5 in some random way"
    
    Leave it to Roland to screw it up.

>I wish there was a way to hook up some kind of hard disk drive to the 
>sequencer so that you could compose sets "on the fly" from your entire 
>catalog of songs.
    
    Yeah, me too Dan. I've been considering some way to achieve this. One
    possibility is to add an Alesis Datadisk to your rack setup. The
    Datadisk can play any file instantly (random access) with no load time
    (bypasses the sequencer). The trouble is, the only way to load files on
    the Datadisk is to transfer them in real-time from some other
    sequencer. This would be time consuming, but if your material is stable
    you could do it once and have all of the stuff available on call.
    
    Another virtue of this approach (which I've obviously been considering)
    is that you don't have to lug a sequencer around to gigs. The Datadisk
    takes up a single rack space and is really light. It also can be
    obtained for around $300. You could even have a backup.
    
    I'd be interested if you think this is a viable way to go. You have
    more active performing experience with your gear than I do at this
    point.
    
    - Ram

Ram,

That's an interesting idea. To think, I traded in my DataDisk (first 
one ever sold by Wurly's) to upgrade to the MC-500. In fact, didn't 
you also do the same thing?

Right now, it's not really enough of a problem to make me consider 
spending more money on a new DataDisk and another rack (my racks are 
full). It's really more of an inconvenience. 

My singers would love this idea, though! They often come up to me at 
the beginning of a set and say "Can we play xxxxxx this set?". 
Sometimes, I can say "sure", but more often I have to say "sorry, it's 
not on this disk." (Hmmm, maybe I can convince them to buy this 
setup!)

I like the concept, though, and it sounds very feasible if you want to 
spend the money. My biggest gripe with the DataDisk last year was the 
load time for songs into the sequencer (10-30 seconds per song). If you can 
sidestep that now, then it sounds like a great solution. You also don't have 
to lug fragile hard disk drives around to gigs!

-Dan

Of course, I just added another MMT-8 to my rack & now load from any of
5 floppies as needed (usually during the performance of another song).

If you buy another data-disk let me know & we can trade some more sequences.

								Jens

    Just curious, when you guys talk load times....
    
    1. How long to load up an MRP floppy.
    
    2. How many songs per floppy.
    
    3. How long to access between songs.
    
    Do you realy get a whole set onto one floppy?
    
    
    						Brian

    	It's been a while since I have had any shows, and therefore have
    had to load an MRP floppy onto my MC500 (mk I), but I can say that I
    have not yet come up to the limit on filling up an MRP disk.  I can
    do a night's worth of material on a single disk and have room to spare. 
    Now, as a qualifier, I should mention that I intersperse my sequenced
    material with non-sequenced material, and my sequences don't tend to be
    all that thickly arranged.
    
    	As far as load time, I'd say it takes about the same amount of time
    as the MRC software.  I 'd say that is about 30 seconds or less.  Once
    the MRP disk is loaded, you have instant access to all the songs that
    were on the disk.
    
    	Dan

Dan's right: it takes about as much time to load in the S-MRP software and all
the songs in a set as it does to load in the S-MRC software with no songs
(under a minute).

I can fit about 15-17 very complex sequences on a disk (as I mentioned earlier,
most of my sequences now are from Trycho Tunes or Tran Trax, and they average
anywhere from 30-65K per song). So, I can easily load a set's worth of material
(we play 9 songs/set, usually 4-40 minute sets in a night), plus a lot of 
extras for variety or in an attempt to do a request if we get one. Sometimes
we can, sometimes we can't, depending if it's on the disk.

-Dan

Has anybody heard a rumor regarding a HARD DISK DRIVE that can be attached to
an MC-500 sequencer? I haven't seen the latest Roland User Guide, but 
there is supposedly a Roland ad in there for a hard disk that can be 
attached to the sequencer! Imagine the possibilities...be able to play any
request instantly! No more shuffling floppies! No more constraints as to what
songs you can put in a set!

My questions:

1) Is it for real?

2) How soon can I get it?

3) How much will it cost me?

-Dan

One more question:

4) How will it hook up to the sequencer? The only way I can imagine would be
via the MIDI port. Or are they proposing adding a SCSI port to the sequencer?

-Dan