Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    
    Agree with conclusion:  S/N & Functions & "quality" seem to
    proportional to $$$ spent. To me the differences were clear
    enough to leave most factors of "subjectivity" out of the
    equation. 
    
    Thought the midiverb is a great value! (oops, subjectivity.)
    
    Nice meeting all you guys. Wish I hadnt missed the Midi-jam0rama.
    
    Any thoughts on distributing (oh no!) the reverb tape?
    
    Whats the next exploit?
    
    Ron
    

    What surprised me the most was the linearity of the price/performance
    curves. I've generally found electronic gear to be governed by the
    'law of diminishing returns', and  although *twice as good* is a
    highly elusive quality, the *get what you pay for* syndrome was
    readily apparent.
    
    My biggest disappointment was the MIDIVerb. I checked this unit
    out a couple weeks ago, assuming it to be a viable low-end reverb.
    It is not BAD, per se. But for half the price I bought a Fostex
    true stereo spring. I couldn't justify the MIDIVerb on my budget.
     
    The SRV2000 is THE semi-pro unit. It was quiet and imparted a very
    natural reverb to the input. The only way I can describe it is by
    saying the Yamaha made the sounds seem as though they were processed
    through a very good reverb; The SRV-processed sounds didn't seem
    to be processed at all, very natural.
    
    My thanks to Len for hosting yet another event. You gotta be getting
    tired of hosting these things. Tell ya what, move all your stuff
    to my place and I'll be the host for awhile!!!
    
    One last question... How can I get my hands on one of those buttons?
    
    Edd

    
    Edd, you dirty old man...Hands on a button indeed...
    
    Am I hearing that the "linear" price/performance
    curve ISNT, if we include low-cost spring units?
    
    Sure wish you had brought it along for a *real*
    comparison, since you like it so much....
    
    ron
    

    But spring reverbs make really great explosions (you just slam them
    on the side) and they are *unsurpassed* for that "twangy" guitar
    sound.
    
    Any ideas on distributing the tape?  Edd must have been thinking
    about those buttons when it took three takes to get his announcement
    almost right...
    
    The tape's about 15 minutes long.
    
    len.
    

    I'd say the curve is still linear even including the spring.
    
    I don't have a whole lot of reverb unit, but then I didn't pay
    a whole lot for it either. The crappola spring fits my music
    quite nicely , thank you.
    
    Bring it? And let you DDL owners laugh at me?? No way, I don't have
    to spend $200 bucks to make a fool outta myself. Actually I don't
    like it all that much, but it was cheap and better than nothing.
    
    Edd                      
    

    I have as yet to hear a DDL that sounded (where reverb is concerned)
    natural. The naturalness of a good spring reverb results, in part,
    from the fact that the spring vibrates in three dimensions.
    
    BTW you *can* get echo from a spring reverb.  I once did.....by
    using a "slinky!"
    
    John M.

    Bear in mind that digital delays (DDLs) are different beasts from
    digital reverbs.  Delays don't process their input data, they just
    delay it.  You can't even come close to a reverb effect with a
    fedback delay; the echo spacing is too consistent and the resultant comb
    filtering effects dominate.  Nor do DDLs include EQ and damping
    capabilities necessary to simulate a natural reverb.
    
    I, on the other hand, have never heard a natural sounding spring
    reverb.  They all sound like springs, especially on percussive
    transients.  I know there are very expensive spring units that solve
    these problems, but digital technology has gotten to the point where
    you can do better for less bucks than trying to fixup the inherent
    deficiencies of electromechanical contrivances.  True, springs don't
    have problems like "graininess", but they can be noisy, are shock
    sensitive, and exhibit bizarre frequency response.  Plates are better,
    but good plates are big and expensive.  I find it telling that while
    many digital reverbs have "plate" algorithms, not one that I know of has
    a "spring" algorithm.  
    
    The fact that a spring vibrates in three dimensions is irrelevant;
    the transducers at each end of the spring are one dimensional so
    only the projection of the spring's vibration onto the transducer's
    responsive direction matters (usually rotational rather than
    translational).
    
    If you listen to any pop music at all, you've been hearing digital
    reverbs for the past few years.  Not MIDIverbs or even SRV-2000s,
    but Lexicons and the like.
    
    len.
    

    len.

    RE: .7
    
    I should have known you'd catch me on that one, Len.  Yes, the
    transducers in a spring reverb only move back and fourth (for all
    intents) and the "3D" aspect of the spring does not really come
    into play.  (I was going to delete that reply after I posted it
    for that very reason.  That'll teach me!).  Your're also right,
    sheet reverb IS better than spring, but expensive (Do they even
    still make them?).
    
    It has been my experience that spring reverbs only sound "springy"
    if overdriven.  They're still a lot cheaper than digital units though.
    
    I still contend that I can tell the dif between digital reverb and
    reverb of acoustic extraction.  Does anyone believe me?  Oh well.
    
    
    John M.  

    
    	What I know about midi and technical type stuff could be
    stuffed into a thimble with enough room left over for 2 cups
    of water. Todd Rhodes was, at one point during the demo-recording,
    telling me to play "staccata" or "staccato" or "stilleto" or
    something like that and, not being trained at any thing musical,
    I had no idea what he was talking about. I did finally get the idea
    and did what he asked....didn't I ?
    	anyway, I listened to the different units and, unfairly judging
    by the little we heard, The better units/more expensive units cer-
    tainly sounded better to me.
    	so, after I get my drum machine and my cz101 and my sequencer
    and my compressor and learn how to play and then buy a stereo and
    put electricity in my house, (not to mention running water), I'll
    upgrade my current reverb (spring) and delay(analog) , with
    one of them there high priced, high falootin srv's or something
    in that vain.
    	Dave, let me know when you're ready to sell any of your old
    stuff.
    	
    	Thanks, Len, for letting my try your rockman. That was a nice
    demo, too. I gotta get a rockman for recording. I just can't
    get that nice fat clean marshall distortion sound out of my
    marshall unless I CRANK the S.O.B. And in an apartment, I can only
    CRANK on saturday mornigs betwen 11:00 and 11:02.
    	Thanks for the demo on the 707....from all that was said, I'm
    not sure if the perfect drum machine does indeed exist so maybe
    this is as close as any other. and for that price, why not?
    	and thanks for the demo on the cz101.
    	This is a toy I WILL get and must have.
    	Sounds are definitely on a pro level.
    	and with a little reverb, echo and imagination....quien sabe?
    
    	Thanks Len, had a nice time.....got to put more faces with
    more nodes and more names. Thanks for the Beer, too.
    
    	while we were there, I managed to read most of your sci-fi books,
    but I didn't have enough time to finish all the technical manuals.
    	Maybe next time.
    
    
    	rik
    

    Well, we are a powerful group of individuals.  Hail this conference.
    No one of us could have had access to four different reverb units
    let alone have so much fun comparing them.  Thanks to all who chipped
    in.  And special thanks to Fred Certo for renting (with his own_$$$)
    an SPX-90 and a MIDIfex, and Len Fehskens for hosting this gathering.
    
    Well, I need to be honest here.  On the way from the studio to the
    living room, Mr. Amiga grabbed me and started shaking me.  Seemed 
    he was upset at not recieving an adequete amount of attention.
    "Look, I can be MIDI too", he bellowed.  "Why are you computer types
    ignoring me?"  I was quite shocked.  "Not enough time, I guess."
    Tears grew in his eyes...
    
    Well Len, could there be an Amiga demo in the near future?  NOT
    FOR ME of course, but for poor Mr. Amiga who is always treated as
    an after thought at COMMUSIC demo sessions...
    
    In summary, I enjoyed matching names with faces, and learned some
    things about the various digital reverbs on the market today.
    Thanks to all for making it a success.  Oh yea, thanks to DD for
    a midnight studio demonstration (Geez, that MIDIkid loves to party.
    He was up at MIDInight!).
    
    Todd.
    
    
    
    

	Well, I might as well thow in a few comments, though 
	I will mainly "echo" the conclusions of the others.

	First, a hearty thank-you to Len Fehskens for organizing
	and hosting this most enlightening event! I also enjoyed 
	meeting everyone else who attended; now I can associate 
	faces with some of the names I see in this conference.

	This demo was moderately dangerous to my budget - while I 
	might have been satisfied with the MidiVerb before, now I am 
	seriously considering a more sophisticated model! I will 
	probably decide on a solid "middle-of-the-line"	machine like 
	the SPX-90.

							Scot	

    Amiga demo, huh? - well, I'll think about that when I get some decent
    music software for it.  All I've got so far is a lame sampler (oops,
    I owe us a review of that, don't I), but I do have a lot of neat
    games (when I can't work out my frustrations on my drum set,
    I pop Skyfox into the Amiga and blow up a few tanks...).
    
    A strong contender in the mid-priced digital reverb market is the
    new Ibanez SDR-1000, priced at about $800 and having many of the
    features of the SRV-2000.  So far I have heard a lot of good things
    about it, but haven't had a chance to hear or play with one.
    
    Also watch for the new Roland DEP-5, a multi-effects box like the
    SPX-90, but it does several things at the same time!  Also about
    $800.
    
    len.
    

    
    
    Reverb-O-Rama great success!  I had a great time, it was nice to
    meet all of you!  Len your a great host; thanks for letting us
    invade your studio for the evening!  I even got a bit of a listen 
    to the compilation tape!  Burnin' bufalo wings aside, ...great time!
    
    The tests:
    
    I agree with what's been said about price vs performance ratio.
    I must say that it wasn't what I expected.  From my in-store tests,
    I originally thought that the Midi-verb had a richer, thicker 
    sound than the SPX-90, but side by side I found the reverse to be
    true.  The SPX seemed to me to sound more natural as well.  
    
    The SPX-90 did have a tendency to get that metalic sound you get
    when you set a digital delay to a very small delay with lots of 
    feedback(regen)(and it sounds like you're talking deep inside a 
    bottle).  It was barely audible and only on one or two patches 
    (I'm being very critical), but I think that is an example of where 
    the SRV is better.  
       Now that I think about it, plates have a bit of a distinctive
    coloration, I wonder if this was how they tried to imitate it?
    
    --one flame:
    My biggest surprise was that Alesi was able to put out such a great
    product as the Midi-Verb but let the MIDI-FEX pale in comparison.
    (I stayed up til Midi-night too, playin' with these things, when I
    got home.)  As the reverb fades out, you hear noise?  Also, if you
    change channels it kills the preceeding sound: this is one of the
    best things about the *MIDI*-Verb!  Maybe I'll review it a bit if
    anyone's interested.
        
    --Neat:
    The SPX-90 has a realy nice ADR-noise gate: I had a hissy tape
    with voice on it and was able to clean it up without losing a 
    sylable by being able to adjust the SPX to trigger 30 ms *before*
    the person spoke.  (It does this by delaying the signal.) 
     
    Also, by having a bit of an attack and release, I was able to
    make the gating unnoticable.  Now, if only it could do peak limiting
    at the same time.
    
    --on the horizon:
    The Roland DEP-5 could be the best choice, especially if it sounds
    like an SRV-2000.  Has anyone seen it reviewed or discussed in 
    print?                              
    
    I too am interested in the Amiga; Len, lets colaborate and write
    our own software.
    
    --Springs:
    Akai made a very expensive (5 or 10k) spring reverb I believe. 
    It featured a very complex, acid etched spring.  I think it was
    tortional (it rotates) and stood in a box vertically.
                                        
    Fredric        DVINCI::CERTO
    
    Them's ain't no ordinary springy thangs you got yer ears on...
    :-)                                 
    
    
    

    The SRV2000 has reverb decay times up to 99 seconds; it does not
    harmonize because that is not a reverb function.  We were not
    interested in general delay-based effects, but reverb specifically.

    The SRV-2000 also has three bands of programmable EQ, as part of
    a reverb program, and numerous (well, 5) remote pedal inputs, including
    one that makes the reverb decay time infinite.
    
    The Roland analog of the SPX-90 is the DEP-5, which was just announced.
    It costs the same as an SPX-90, and will do multiple things at a
    time.  The SPX-90 will presumably be replaced fairly soon by Yamaha's
    latest box. 

    This comparison was specifically of reverb effects, not general
    purpose effects boxes.

    len.
    

    	Just out of curiosity, does anyone know anything about the Yamaha
    REV-7?  Where does this unit fit in?  Is this an old box or is it
    the replacement of the SPX-90?
    
    	One more thing, I would like to find out about hearing the test
    tape (actually it's my sound man that wants to hear it).  Is it
    available for others in the conference?  Would someone be willing
    to lend it out or give a personal demo?
    
    
    	Dan

    The tape is available to anyone who wants to hear it.  It is not
    terribly professional, so don't expect too much.  Shall we draw
    up a circulation list?  Dan clearly gets it first, having asked
    first.
    
    The REV-7 predates the SPX-90.  It is a reverb-only box, not a multi-
    effects unit like the SPX-90.  It is comparable to the SRV-2000.
    If I recall correctly, it is rather expensive (about $4K?).

    len.

	Should we start a new topic for tape distribution or just continue
    this note?
    
    
    	If it should stay in this note, I'll make my request official:
    
    
    		Dan Eaton
    		
    		PKO3-1/F38
    		DTN 223-6976
    
    
    
    		

    
    I wished I could have made it, unfortunately something came up after
    work that couldn't be ignored.
    
    I had borrowed an SRV-2000 from a friend who works in a studio,
    and played with it for several days. Overall, it's just about a
    PCM series Lexicon for less bucks. Does get a bit warm, though.
    
    The new Ibanez sounds very attractive, especially since it's stereo
    in-stereo out. The new Roland should be a winner, too. I expect
    Len to have serial number 000000001..... 8^)
    
    CdH
    
    

Good point regarding stereo in/stereo out, Chris.  I should point out that
the MIDIVERB has stereo in/stereo out.  Not too shabby for the bucks.

A note regarding the comparison:
The fact that we used each reverb unit only in mono may have had a play in 
the test results.  The MIDIVERB doesn't have a mono mode like the SRV has,
and always assumes that stereo outputs will be used.  I have been playing
with it quite a bit in mono recently (hooking it up to the output of the DX),
and have come to the realization that some programs sound horrible because
they are designed to ping-pong "direct reflections" between the stereo 
outputs, creating a pulsating effect when heard through only one channel.
The true way to test the MIDIVERB in mono would have been to mix the stereo
outputs together with some sort of mixer.  Oh well, probably wouldn't have
made *that* much of a difference.

Todd.

    The SRV doesn't have a mono mode as such.  It also has stereo outputs,
    and does not mix them if you use only one of them.  The two reverb
    processors are completely independent and produce different reverberant
    fields (same input parameters); in that sense, we were "shortchanging"
    the SRV the same way as the MIDIverb - i.e., the SRV would have
    sounded *even better* had we used it in stereo, or mixed its mono
    outputs.
    
    len.
    

Oh, I thought the SRV mixed when using only one output.  If I recall 
correctly, it said "MONO" or some such thing over one of the stereo 
outputs.  Maybe it was the SPX, but I could have sworn it was the SRV.?

Todd. (who_would_also_like_to_hear_the_tape)

    Your memory is correct, one of the SRV-2000's stereo output jacks
    is also labeled Mono.  However, plugging something into the other
    jack doesn't seem to effect the output of the "Mono" jack.  When
    I started using both outputs of my SRV-2000 I was pleasently surprised
    at the improvement in realism.
        John Sauter

    And to further obscure things, the two outputs are labeled "A (mono)"
    and "B".  I don't know why Roland didn't put a switching jack in that
    summed the outputs when only one (A) was used.

    len.
    

>    jack doesn't seem to effect the output of the "Mono" jack.  When
>    I started using both outputs of my SRV-2000 I was pleasently surprised
>    at the improvement in realism.

You mean you can improve the realism?  God, the thing sounded incredible
using just one channel.  Now I know why Lexicon isn't even gonna bother
competing in this market anymore...

Todd.

    I also thought it sounded incredible using just one channel.
    That's why it was so long before I started using two.  I guess
    there is such a thing as too much quality.  :-)
        John Sauter

    I will be sending the tape out this weekend to Dan Eaton.  Dan,
    after you're fed up with it, forward it to Todd Rhodes who appears
    to be the next requester.  To my fellow COMMUSIC noters in general,
    I will be on vacation next week, so I haven't disappeared, I've just
    become unreachable.
    
    len.
    

    I would like to hear the tape.
    
    	Jim Ravan
    	ZKO2-2/N59
    	(38)1-2364
    
    -jim

    	Having had enough time listening to the tape, I'm ready to pass
    it on.  Todd can you give me an address to send it to?

	Thanks for sending it out, Len.	
    
    	Dan

Do you think DEC internal mail will be alright, Dan?  Maybe if you sandwich
it between two pieces of envelope sized cardboard...

MS: MR01-2/G6

Todd.

    	It's on its way.
    
    
    	Dan

Got it today.  Thanks Dan...

After a careful listen to the tape, I conclude that the MIDIwife wins the
reverb-o-rama, wet or dry ;^)

Todd (back_after_a_3_day_absence [ half vacation, half sick :-( ]).

Tape has been digested.

Will send off to Jim Ravan today...

Todd.

    Tape received this morning.  Will return it to Len on Monday morning
    unless anyone else replies before then.
    
    Thanks Todd,
    
    -jim

    Roland SRV-2000s are now BEING REMAINDERED.  I hear that LaSalle
    is selling them for $500.  EUWurlitzer told me they would sell them
    for a *lot* less than $900 - they were trying to ease the pain to
    me (I paid about $1300 each for my pair, but that was about a year
    ago), so they're probably in the $500-$600 ballpark too.
    
    Here's your chance!
    
    My guess is the SRV-2000 is being replaced by the DEP-5, or by a
    dedicated reverb in the <$1K price range.  Roland frequently does
    this - discount a discontinued model to about 1/3 of its original
    list price (witness the run on MSQ-100s and -700s a few months back,
    and for a while you could get a Juno-106 for about $600 - "only"
    1/2 off, but still...).
    
    Wonder when the MKS-20, MKS-70 (rack mount JX-10) and MKS-80 are
    going to be discontinued...
    
    len.
    

    I would like to get a hold of the reverb tape that we made
    of the SRV, SPX, and Midiverb.
    
    My mail stop is MR03-1/E13 
    
    or send me mail on DVINCI::CERTO and I'll give you my home address.
     
    Thanks
    
    Fredric Certo
    

    I would also appreciate it if the reverb tape could be forwarded
    to me as well.  Mail stop is MLO1-2/C30.
    
    		Thanks,
    		Derek

    Does anybody know where it is?
    
    len (who hasn't seen the tape in a while)
    

    I just sent the tape to DVINCI::CERTO this afternoon.
    
    (Anybody know where Tape I is?)
    
    -jim

    
    I received the reverb tape from Jim and have sent it to Derek.
    
    Fredric 	DVINCI::CERTO

    
    Anyone know anything about the Lexicon PCM-70?  Saw the ad in keyboard,
    sounds a little like an SPX-90.
    
    Fredric	DVINCI::CERTO
    

    Received it from Fredric and I'm ready to pass it along.  To whom
    should I be sending it?
    
    		Derek
    
    P.S. I am now lusting after a SRV-2000, although I liked the SPX-90
    as well.  Overall, an excellent piece of analytical work.  Thanks
    to all who participated.

    If nobody else wants, send it back to me.
    
    len.
    

    You got it Len.  It's on its way back home.
    
    Thanks again for the opportunity to do the comparison.  I can see
    why you're happy with your twin SRV-2000s!
    
    		Derek

    
    	Uhhh..anyone want to buy a copy of my tape?
    
    	$1,000,000.00
    
    	or we can haggle.
    
    	rik who-wants-to-mae-lots-of-money-quickly