Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    The 505 is a cost reduced combination of the 707 and 727.  I haven't
    looked closely at one, but I assume the programming interface is
    much like the 707 and 727.  The sounds are excellent.  They do have
    that Roland "cleaner than life" digital sound to them, but I'd prefer
    that to starting with dirty sounds.  Only the ride cymbal of the
    707 (probably also used in the 505) leaves much to desire.  Relative
    to the 707 and 727 all you give up in the 505 is a few voices and
    a lot of sequence memory.
    
    I know of no machine that compete with it - I think you can get one 
    for around $350!
    
    The biggest (actually ONLY) complaint I have heard about the 707/727
    is you can't program them in realtime mode over the MIDI in.  I.e.,
    while you can PLAY a 707/727 from an Octapad, you can't PROGRAM it
    from one.

    I unreservedly recommend it.  It is the CZ-101 of drum machines.

    Next time I'm at Wurlitzers I'll look closely at it and find out
    where it most differs from the 7070 and 727.
    
    len.
    

    I was at Wurlitzer's Saturday with a friend who was looking at
    the TR-505 and TR-707.  They both sounded about the same but I
    thought the TR-707 sounded a bit better (Maybe it was EQ'ed through
    the board).  Len, you're right about the chessy cymbals.  The
    TR-707 has a display on it that the TR-505 doesn't have.  It shows
    were in a measure the individual drum hits are.  This looks like
    a real nice feature, especially for editing and adding accents.
    The TR-707 is less than $500 these days...
    
    DD

    I've played with one briefly, and am impressed with the bang for
    the buck.  Manny's is selling them for $275.  Hard to go wrong at
    that price.  The only thing that bothers me is the open hi-hat
    sample.  It lasts only about 600ms, which is much shorter than the 
    ride cymbal sample for some reason.
    
    I think the sound quality of the cymbals is good in general - I
    didn't hear any cheezyness in quality, just in the length of the
    sample.  Oh yea, the bass drum sound has more Umph than on the 
    TR707.  
    
    Let us know what happens...
    
    Todd.
    

    I am also going through this loop at the moment for the following
    reasons. My first midi purchase was an RX21 drum machine which is
    great, has superb sounds and is easy to program but it has only
    stereo outputs and no rimshot or ride symbol. I have 2 options to
    get around this problem one is to trade in the RX for a tr707 (300
    pounds is the trade in deal) the other is to by a tr505 (200 pounds).
    and midi the 2 macines together. The only thing the latter doesn't
    give me is seperate o/p's for each sample. This should not be a
    problem as I only really want to e.q. and effect the snare and occasionaly
    a couple of other sounds. What it does give me which I beleive the
    tr707 would not is more latin voices and 2 rich sources of sampled
    drum sounds so I think I will go for the latter of the 2 options.
    
    According to the music press over here (U.K.) the TR505 is not just
    a cut down tr707 although it is obviously from the same stable.
    They say that there are more different types of voices (16 in all)
    I think this is one more than the 707. PLus the midi implementation
    is better i.e. you can assign different midi channels and note numbers
    to each sample. I think they may have also sorted out the realtime
    programming of patterns (this is an assumption). The display is smaller
    but gives you the same pattern information but only for the instrument
    selected not the whole rhythm section. I will (I think) be buying
    mine when I get back from holiday (about 3 weeks) I would have bought
    it last week but there are no stocks left in the U.K. (the first
    batch was sold in about 2 days). I will report on all the above
    when I get it home to play with. (why do I always feel inhibited
    in the shop).
                 
    					PAUL.

    
    Some of the differences that I have noted are: the tr707 has 
    individual outputs for most of the instruments, (a couple share
    the same output) as well as a mixer for the individual levels; mono
    out and stereo out (pre-panned); the tr505 only has the mono and
    stereo outputs.
    
    The tr707 has sync to tape, which allows you to lay down a control
    track on your tape deck and have the tr707 sync to it.  I believe
    both allow dumping programs to tape.  The tr707 has two bass drums
    and two snares (I think) to which allows two handed (or footed)
    drum rolls.  The tr707 has a low and high cowbell, just one on the
    tr505.  So you pick up 3 or is it 4 extra instruments on the tr505.
    
    The display on the tr505 only shows 16 beats of the instrument you're
    currently entering, where-as the 707 shows all the instruments and
    also has led's that light above each key to show whether the current
    instrument will sound on that beat (like the 505's display).  I
    like the led's cause they're close to the keys, and they're layed
    out in a single row instead of two.
    
    The sounds are quite good; a little reverb goes a long way, and
    on the 707 you can output the cymbals to a separate track of your
    own mixer and eq them, which improves them alot.  Sure wish the
    707 had those extra instruments.  Other machines' features that
    neither of these have: user sampling and interchangable sounds on
    ROM.
    
    This is all from memory of a trial about two months ago, so don't
    quote me.  
    Question: couldn't this all be done on a sampling keyboard, especially
    with a computer & midi interface?  What would have to be given up?
    
    Fredric 
                     

    Not bad for a two month old memory dump.  A few minor corrections.
    
    The 707 has only one cowbell, and it sounds heavily damped.  The *727*
    has two pitched cowbells (actually Latin agogos).  The 707 does
    have two snares and two basses, but that's not so much for rolls
    as it is for different sounds.  The two snares are VERY different sounding
    and won't make a very good sounding roll if used together.  The
    two basses differ mostly with respect to beater slap (one's got
    a lot more impact transient than the other).
    
    The 707's 16 voices are:
    
    	bass1 bass2 snare1 snare2 hitom midtom lowtom rimclick tambourine
    
    	cowbell handclap closedhihat closedhihat openhihat ride crash 

    Yes, the closed hihat is duplicated (same sound).
    
    I think the 505 gives up 1 bass and 1 snare, replaces the cowbell
    with the agogos, and adds a conga and timbale.  (The 727 has both in
    two pitches.)  The 505 does not duplicate the closed hihat. 
    
    When accessed from a keyboard via MIDI, the voices are assigned
    note numbers that allow two adjacent keys to be used to do two hand
    rolls on a few of the voices.

    If you've got a good source of samples, you can in fact dupicate
    the function of these devices with a sampler.  Some minor problems
    though - sequencing drum parts (which, at least for rock/pop tunes)
    tend to be repetitive requires good editing facilities in the
    sequencer, unless you have a pad to MIDI mapper (e.g., Roland Octapad
    or JLCooper Drumslave or Roland DDR30 (which is itself full of
    samples)).  The open and closed hihat are tied together in the 707,
    so when you invoke closed hihat the open hihat closes.  You could
    probably duplicate this on a smapler by sending a noteoff to the
    open hihat voice at the same time you send a noteon to the closed
    hihat voice.  You could actuallyu have two closed hihat voices,
    one for  the pedal and one for sticks on the closed hihat.  You'd
    also give up individual outputs for each sound, valuable if you
    want to treat each differently with EQ or effects (e.g., snare and
    bass require radically different EQ and reverb).  Also, cymbal
    samples require a LOT of memory (bandwidth and duration).  Otherwise
    they sound crumby unless you resort to psychoacoustic tricks.
    
    len.
    

    I think the single biggest reason I bought the TR707 was the individual
    outputs for each voice.  Being used to EQing and effecting acoustic
    drums, I felt this was essential in making the drum machine sound
    more realistic.  You can, as has been mentioned before, go an awful
    long way with a little digital reverb, EQ and other effects.
    
    		Derek

    How important is the indivdual outputs?  I assume you can run the
    
    stereo output of the 505 through the midi-reverb and get a nice
    sound.  Do the different sounds need different amounts or will
    a little do a lot for all of them.  Can someone recommend a good
    inexpensive reverb box to go with the 505?
    
    Dan

    Biggest problem with reverbing evreything is that bass drums don't
    sound good with the same kind of reverb that makes snares and cymbals
    sound good. But yes, overall it's very usable and a big improvement
    over a totally dry drum sound.
    
    BTW, I got the 505 voices wrong - it does have two congas, as well
    as a timbale and two agogos.  It gives up the tambourine of the
    707 for this.  It doesn't have the muted hi conga of the 727, or
    a second timbale pitch.
    
    505 owners - how do the builtin patterns on the 505 sound?  Can
    they be altered at all?  Incidentally, you may want to look at my
    note "Drums and Drumming for NonDrummers" in the MUSIC conference
    for a discussion of drum patterns and how they're used.  Sorry,
    I don't recall the note number, but it's around 100 (like 93 or
    94 or maybe 103?)  See especially "lesson 9".
    
    len.
    

    re TR505 built-in patterns.  Some are very usefull, some not so.
    It has 48 built-in patterns, and 48 programmable patterns.  You
    can copy a pattern from the built-ins to the programmable to modify
    a pattern thats "almost" right.  The patterns are organized into
    6 banks of 16 patterns.  The 3 banks of presets are as follows:
    
    A: 4 different 8 beat rocks, disco, electric pop, 2 16 beat rocks,
    and 8 various fills and breaks.
    
    B: 8 Shuffles, some rocky, some jazzy, and 8 shuffle fills.  All
    these have a triplet feel.
    
    C: 2x Rock Bossa, 2x Samba, 2X Reggae, Mambo, March, 2x Bossanovam
    2 Samba fills, 2 Reggae fills and 2 Waltzes.
    
    The ability to copy patterns around is very useful, I find.  Also
    you can create blocks of adjacent patterns to make compound patterns
    that can be addressed as one pattern when writing tracks.  I might
    also add that you can make patterns of arbitrary numbers of beats.
    For example a block of a 4/4 rock and a 1/4 rock pattern makes a
    dandy 5/4 rock pattern that will definitely keep you on your toes.
    
    I like it.  I would like to have the individual outputs, but I wanted
    the $200 savings more.  I only have 4 tracks and 4 inputs so it
    wouldn't do me much good anyway.  
    
    Looks like my next toy should be the MidiVerb.  Any caveats ?  I've
    heard nothing but good about it.  That worrys me. 
    

    It's been a while since this topic has had some activity.  Who's
    bought a TR505 in the last few months? (Paul Kent?)
    
    I plan on buying a drum machine fairly soon.
     
    Questions:
    
    	1.  Can someone verify whether or not the TR505 can be programmed
    		in realtime via midi?
    
    	2.  Can any of the Yamaha boxes be programmed in real time?
    
    	3.  Can someone verify whether or not the ride cymbal of the
    		TR505 is "better" than the TR707 sample?
        
    	4.  Can the TR505 be synced to tape or act as a clock for a
    		sequencer?
    
    	5.  How much memory does one give up in choosing the TR505 over
    		the TR707?
    
    	6.  Can you assign different midi channels to voices in the
    		TR707? (or just with the TR505) 
         
    	7.  Can individual voices in the TR505 be "shut off" so that
    		only one voice is audiable during a pattern playback?
    
    Thanks for any input.  (If anyone has any info on any MIDI Casio
    samplers in the works, please post it in a seperate note.  That may 
    end up being a better choice.)
    
    Todd. (the_drummachineless_drummer) 
    

    
    Well as you all guessed I aquired a 505 recently and I think I could
    answer some of the questions.
    
    1, I was going to post a note about this one anyway. In program
    I.E. Tap Write mode, If you send a MIDI note to the 505 it sounds
    but it doesn't store the note in the pattern. So it is receiving
    midi data but it won't program it. I can't beleive this, it sounds
    like it would be more difficult to recieve the MIDI and then throw
    it away then to just store it as another input to the pattern
    programmer. So OCTAPAD owners take note.
    
    2, I don't think any of the YAM machines will do this either. The
    RX21 doesn't even sound the note unless you are in MIDI INFO AVAILABLE
    mode which is mutually exclusive with programme mode.
    
    3, AS to the sound of RIDE symbols et al. Then subjectivity is the
    order of the day. It sounds O.K. to me but that doesn't mean much.
    You really need to get the 2 together and try.
    
    4, The 505 will not sync to tape but it will act as a MIDI clock
    and drive a sequencer.
    
    5, You cannot assign different MIDI channels to the drum voices
    of any other machine than the 505. (I think)(whew that was close).
    This is proabaly the best part of the MIDI implementation of this
    machine. You can play all sorts of tricks with drum sounds on other
    synths and machines etc.
    
    6, You can shut of the VOICES of the TR505 by symply setting the
    level of the voice to 0.
    
    7, I haven't a clue about the memory question.
    
    Lastly I would say the I think for the money the 505 is the best
    machine I have seen. The CASIO RZ ? sampler would have hit it except 
    the actual on board samples were really bad, although you could
    E.Q. them all seperately. If you have a big enough mixer this might
    be worth a look. The RX21 is now at least 6 months old and already
    obsolete and surpassed. Anyone want to buy one?
    		
    				Paul.
    
    				                                    
    

    Just a few things to add/confirm:
    
    3) I have heard a 505 and 707 back to back, and (in my opinion) the
    ride cymbal on the 505 sounds "better".  It is "tighter" and doesn't
    sounds as "cheap".  These are obviously very subjective observations.
    
    7) Not sure what you mean by memory, but if you mean song and
    pattern capacity the 707 has more.  It will store 4 "tracks" and
    64 "patterns".  A 505 has some number of builtin patterns that can't
    be erased (or even edited  I think).  Don't know if the 505 takes
    a cartridge, but the 707 will take an M64C (about $80) that adds
    another 8 tracks and 128 patterns.  The only constraint on their
    use is that you can only be in one of these three banks at a time,
    so you have to group things into the 4 track/64 pattern organization
    (i.e., one bank's tracks can't use another bank's patterns).

    n) Also note that the 505 has a wider variety or voices than the
    707, sort of combining some from the 707 and some from the 727.
    
    And yes, I don't understand why Roland didn't design these machines
    to be programmed over the MIDI IN (even if it quantized to the step
    size), or why they disable the audio outs when the machine's sending
    its sequencer output to the MIDI OUT.  Major screwup.
    
    len.
    

    Thanks for the info, Paul.  If I have a sequencer, I guess that
    would make up for not being able to store midi data in real time.
    Just store it in the sequencer in realtime, and then route the 
    sequencer into the TR505 for playback.  Not too bad.
    
    The Casio machine is just too expensive for me.  The TR505 is about
    half the cost.  Can't argue with that.
    
    As far as individual outputs is concerned, I lose alot here.  Lost
    are the ability to eq each seperately, and the ability to add reverb
    or echo to only one voice (snare) while leaving the others dry for 
    reverbing later off tape.  This is a *big* hit.  This alone may force 
    me into buying some other machine, I'm not sure (maybe get two TR505's?) 
    Perhaps a way around this is to turn the snare output level to zero
    and record a pattern to tape.  Then add the snare (play in real
    time) with different reverb/echo/effects.  As my studio is very
    budget, I resort to these kind of techniques quite a bit anyways.
    
    Anyways, thanks for the info, Paul.
    
    Todd.
    
    

    
    re.-2 I Don't think that the 505 closes the audio outs at any stage.
    Even whilst outputing the MIDI information. In fact I think it OP's
    MIDI data all the time its playing.
    
    RE.-1 If you have another synth you could programme a snare voice
    on it and drive that one patch with the 505 Snare voice. And E.q.
    it as you want. But stil retain the pattern capabilities of th 505.
    
    					Paul.

    
    I just saw and advert in a U.K. Mag which says they will mod my
    505 to seperate Outputs (5) for 35 pounds. Does anybody have any
    advice on this kind of upgrade. I.E. should I stay clear.
    
    				Paul.

    Geez, if it is possible to modify it for seperate outputs, then
    you may be able to do it yourself.  The internal chip set may
    be the same as the TR707 with different ROM, smaller memory,
    and the audio outputs "tied" together.  If this is infact the
    case, then one might be able to figure out where the "tying" takes
    place from looking at a TR707, and untie the outputs.
    
    Is it true that the TR505 has only 4 or 5 discrete volume settings
    for each voice?  If so, has this (lack of) resolution been a problem?
    
    thanks PK,
    
    Todd.
    

    
    Yep It's true that it only has 5 different volume settingsper voice. But
    to my insensitive ears thats: softer bangs,soft Bangs, Bangs, loud
    Bangs, and Big Bangs. And I've found that was enough for me.
    
    I phoned the guy about the upgrade and he didn't sound to clued,
    and said the engineer was out of the building so he couldn't be
    to explicit on the workings. He did say however that as the accents
    in the 505 are added globaly rather than per voice, that you would
    lose the accent ability in straight pattern playing if you used
    say, the snare, on seperate output. I think I'll wait and see if
    the guy is still in business in 6 months before I send my machine
    to him.
    
    				Paul

    Another question:  Does the TR505 accept velocity info when triggered
    through MIDI?  If so, what is the resolution of that?
    
    Todd.
    

    RE.-1 Yes. I think it still retains the same 5 levels but this is
    a guess.
    
    				Paul.
    
    				

    If you're not in a hurry, you might consider waiting for the TR707
    to go the way of all products, i.e., to be superseded by a fancier,
    cheaper machine.  When this happens, Roland will drop the price
    on the 707 dramatically.  The 707 has now been around as long as
    the 909 was before it was replaced by the 707.  My guess is there's
    a new Roland drum machine in the works that capitalizes on the
    development of the DDR-30 and the TR-505.
    
    len.
    

    I've been thinking about that too, Len.  The only problem is that
    I'd like some of the percussion voices (a la 505) and also would
    rather have the midi capabilities of the tr505 rather than the 
    tr707.  Ditto for the ride cymbal.
    
    Most of the new drum machines are coming in at $600-$1000 dollars
    (DDD-1, Casio thing).  I can't afford that.  $300 is my limit.
    Doesn't leave me with too many choices, does it? :-)  
    
    I want to know more about the MIDI Casio Sampler in the works...
    
    Todd.
    

    Here is my comparison of the TR505 with the TR707.  Does this look
    right?
    
    	TR505				|  TR707
    ------------------------------------+--------------------------
        "smaller" memory		|  "larger" memory
        stereo outputs			|  individual or stereo outputs
    	no sync to tape			|  sync to tape
    	limited "one voice" display	|  full "all voice" display
    	obtainable for $300		|  obtainable for $500
    	no cartridge storage capability |  cartridge storage capability
    	only 5 volume settings/voice	|  infinite volume settings/voice
    	one accent level		|  two accent levels
    	latin percussion voices 	|  extra standard kit voices
    	updated ride_cymbal/bass_drum	|  standard ride_cymbal/bass_drum
        updated MIDI implementation	|  standard MIDI implementation
    	  a) assign note # to voice     |    a) assign note # to voice only
    	  b) assign channel to voice    |
    	physically small		|  physically "larger"
    
    Todd.
    

    Looks good to me!  I'll just point out that the "extra standard kit
    voices" on the 707 are an extra bass, an extra snare, and a duplicated
    hihat.  One bass has more slap than the other, and the two snares
    are quite different, but one of them I never use.  The duplicated
    hihat is useless.
    
    len.
    

    
    Hasn't the 707 got a Flam etting on it plus a shaker and tambourine.
    
    Perhaps Len could do the honours and explain to us non-drummers
    what a flam is and how he uses it on the 707.
    
    				Paul.

    Yes the 707 has a flam capability (as well as a virtually useless
    shuffle facility); it has a tambourine voice but no shaker.  The
    shaker sound is in the 727.
    
    A flam is analogous to a grace note.  A flam is played by hitting
    a drum with both sticks, one leading the other by just a smidgeon,
    and the second of the two rather louder than the first.  Sort of
    like the diffrence between "Bam!" and "Ba-dam!".  The leading/grace
    note is very close to the main note, so close that it's notated
    not as an anticipatory 16th or even 32nd, but rather as a small
    *eighth* note with a crossbar on it (like "h-bar" for Planck's
    constant over 2 pi)  and tied to the main note.  The time value
    for the grace note is arbitrarily small, and it is considered part
    of the main note.  A live drummer will play a flam so the main note
    falls on the desired beat, with the grace note leading appropriately.
    The effect of a flam is to "thicken" up the sound of the stroke
    and add volume - it provides an effective accent because it's not
    only louder, it also sounds different.
    
    The 707 supports 5 (I think) different flam intervals.  You select
    flams by holding down the instrument select button while pressing
    the desired voice key twice.  Flams can only be assigned to the
    snares and tomtoms (or the corresponding voices on the 727).  On
    the 707 the flam grace note falls on the specified beat, with the
    main note following.  The flam intervals are fixed and independent
    of tempo, so interval 5 (an "open" flam) might be appropriate at
    very slow tempos but would be too open at high tempos.  Warning;
    due to a bug, the 707 defaults to flams on the 2nd snare drum,
    regardless of which you selected.  To get flams on the first snare
    drum, you must hit shift/intrument select to toggle back and forth.
    See your friendly neighborhood pidgin english manual.
    
    I use flams on the 707 the same would I would drumming live.  I.e.,
    I use them when I need a different kind of accent and can afford
    to drop the ride beat (they require two hands).
    
    The 707 comes with a demo track that quite effectively demonstrates
    the use of flams (you can reload the demo if you've trashed it by
    holding down some button while you power up the 707 - again, see
    your manual).  Listen to the demo at slow tempos to more easily
    hear the flams.  You will hear two impacts in one step time.  At
    high tempos you can use flams to simulate the effect of double stroke
    rolls, but because of the tempo independence of the flam interval,
    you have to pick your flam interval and tempo correctly to get away
    with this.
    
    Now you're probably going to want me to explain the shuffle feature.
    
    len.
    
    

Re.-1 Shuffle what Shuffle :-)
    

    C'mon Len, tell us about shuffle.....
    
    Edd

    
    Whilst we were on the subject of shakers and tambers. Does anybody
    have a shaker or tambourine patch for the cz101.
    
    				Paul.

    Sorry laob, I've no shaker patches.  I do have a TR505/707
    question though.  
    
    Can the TR505 or TR707 be synced to an external MIDI clock whilst 
    playing a pattern from its own sequencer memory thus ignoring any
    midi note information?
    
    Edd has informed me that the RX machines can do this.  I always
    thought that the only clock that a drum machine could "hear" was
    through the sync_to_tape input (unless it was driven by a MIDI
    sequencer in which case it would get all pattern info from the 
    sequencer as well as the MIDI clock).  Looks like I was wrong...
    
    Todd.
    
              
    Todd.
    

    Geez, Todd, don't you trust me?
    
    
    :^)
    Edd

    Right, a 707 can either listen only to the clocks (put it into MIDI
    sync mode) or to note ons (in track play mode but not "running").
    I don't know if it will do both at the same time (i.e., play its
    own internal sequence in sync with a MIDI clock *and* play note
    ons coming in over the same MIDI in).  I'll try this some time.

    Seems like a lot of the problem understanding drum machines comes
    from the fact that they combine a sequencer and a sound module in
    a comparatively ad hoc fashion; i.e., the sequencer features and
    the "drum synth" features get kind of jumbled up.

    len.
    

    Yessire!  Someone will come out with a drum machine with no builtin 
    sequencer sometime.  Ok, so the 707 can be put in MIDI sync mode.  
    But can the 505???? (Hello UK).  All this stuff can get confusing
    to those of us who don't currently have drum machines.  Lots to
    be learned there.
    
    Re: .31  Why of course I trust you, Edd.  That fact that you sell
    		used cars part-time to subsidize your MIDI addiction has
    		no bearing here.  Now, do you still have that piece of land
    		for sale down in Florida?
    
    		The people I don't trust are Yamaha and Roland.  As
    		we all know, they are not very compatible, and at times
    		not very similar in the way they do things.  Sooooo,
    		I just wanted to make sure.  (I personally don't trust
    		Yamaha ever since I realized that the sustain pedal
    		for the DX100 is normally closed with the sole purpose
    		of locking you into buying only their pedal.  I hate 
    		that kind of crap and am thus gonna stay away from Yamaha
    		stuff where possible.)
    
    Todd.
    

    
    
    U.K.  Calling......
    
    
    O.K. The biggest gripe I had with my RX21 was that when playing
    from the internal sequencer (under control of the midi clock emitted
    by the Cx5 sequencer) you couldn't add fills in real time Via midi.
    That it is at the end every 8 bars or whenever it would have
    been nice to add some incidental hits pre-recorded into the sequencer
    rather than on the pads. Basically the RX21 ignores midi-in unless
    specifically in "system-info" available mode when it will not run
    it's own sequencer.
                                 
    The 505 however is all sweetness and light. It responds to any note
    info you send in midi at any time and in any mode so therefore I
    permanently run the RX (as a drum expander) in system-info mode 
    midi'd to the 505 and
    seq'd and clocked by the Cx5 but also running it's own patterns. 
    
    Confused ? You will be.
    				
                                Paul.

    No I'm not confused.  You have been very helpful.  Thanks, Paul
    
    Todd. the_now_enlightened
    

    Hey Len,
    
    	When triggering the 707 from the octapad, how many different
    	velocitys (loudnesses) will the 707 play?  Three?(regular, 
    	accent1 and accent2?)
    
    	If it is three, this may mean that the 505 only plays two (regular
    	and accent).  Not a very wide "dynamic range" when triggered
    	from external drum pads.
    
    Todd.
    

    
    Len I think the answer is 5. That is the 5 levels of volume
    granularity.
    I don't have a touch sensitive keyboard and am not sure how i would
    measure it anyhow. But the guy in the shop (sounds like he's the
    same guy as in all your shops) was able to make it sound pretty
    expressive when sequenced externally. I'll check it out.
                                                                   
    				Paul
    				

    re .36, .37
    
    It is my (unverified) impression that the 707 responds to all 128
    MIDI velocity levels.  The Octapad sends a continuous range of velocity
    values.  There are 5 "curves" that map input level (how hard you
    hit the thing) onto MIDI velocity (one extreme means no dynamics,
    i.e., always send the same velocity regardless of impact strength,
    and the other extreme is maximum range), and there's a minimum velocity
    parameter that takes 64 values.  When playing a 707 from a velocity
    sensitive keyboard there seem to be more than 5 values, but I have
    seen studies that indicate that professional musicians can only
    distinguish a half dozen or so amplitude levels anyway, so I might
    not be able to hear the difference.
    
    The 707's sequencer is only able to request 3 of these levels (no
    accent, single accent, double accent), but that says nothing about
    the 707's sound module.
    
    Incidentally, sequencer-less drum machines do exist - the Roland
    DDR-30 is one example, and the new single height rackmount Simmons
    (don't recall the model number) is, I think, a sound module only.
    
    Note also that the Roland MC-500 has a "rhythm track" which is designed
    specifically to contruct drum machine-like sequences (i.e., based
    on "patterns") from MIDI events for use with a drum synthesizer
    like the DDR-30.
    
    Now if Roland would just come out with a DDR-nn full of cymbals
    that sound as good as my A/K Zildjians and Sabians...

    len.
    

    The velocity response of the 707 makes me feel good.  Even 5 levels
    (a la 505) makes me feel good.
    
    Next question (why stop now, I'm on a roll[5 stroke?]).
    How is voice panning between the stereo outputs controlled within 
    the 505?  Is each voice prepanned?
    
    Todd_the_questionour.
    
    

    
    Yep The voices are "pre-panned" you cannot move them at all across
    the stereo image.
    
    				Paul
    

    This is also true of the 707, but with the separate outputs (and
    a few (or more) "spare" inputs on your mixer) you can externally
    pan them anywhere.
    
    len.
     

Well, after studying the tradeoffs as much as possible, I went and did it.  
I ordered a TR505.  For $250 I can't go wrong.  No it doesn't sync to tape,
but with a two track studio, I'd have a hard time using that anyways. No
it doesn't have seperate outputs, but I can't afford more than one reverb
or EQ unit or more mixer inputs anyways.  I can layer drum tracks with 
different reverbs using tape overdubs.  So it only has 5 volumes per voice.
So it only has one built in accent level.  So it doesn't do shuffles ;^).

This will be my first real experience with MIDI.  I can't wait to MIDI
the TR505 up to the DX100 and get some nice percussion rhythms...

Todd (the_MIDIist_to_be)

    Care to do an A/B test for low-end drums?
    
    RX21 vs TR 505?
    
    Edd

good idea.  We'll make a tape.  Who's gonna be the announcer? :^)
I'm first on the distribution list ;^)

Actually sounds like a good reason for a get-together.  I'll let you know 
when it arrives...

Todd.

    vs TR-707 and TR-909 ("obsolete technology")
    
    any other players?
    
    len.
    

    
    
    As I own both an RX21 and a TR505 I will be looking on with interest.
    
    I still think this combination midi'd together gives me a lead in
    drum machine sounds and "fatness" but I could really do with a shaker.
    
    				Paul.

    > Let me guess where it's going to be...
    
    In all fairness to Len, (who has had his place trashed twice by
    marauding midiots), I'll volunteer. Unless of course, Len really
    WANTS to go another round. 
    
    We might even get MORE accomplished, as I don't have half the number
    of diversions lurking about that Len does.
    
    Edd
    
    P.S. Will someone invite that little blonde waitress? You know the
    one... 

    Sorry, Ed, but that little blonde and I have gotten married...
    

re: .46                                     

What do you mean by a "shaker", Paul.  A Maraca?

Todd.    

    Re .-1
    
    Yes I guess so.
    
   			Paul. 

    I think he meant the blonde with the button...
    
    The main advantage of having it at my place is I don't have to drive
    home and I don't have to tear up my setup to bring anything along.
    So I'm happy to host.  Try me.
    
    len.
    

    The main reason for having it at Len's is the blonde with the button.
    
    Edd

Ok, ok.  If you insist Len...

Maybe the shaker sound Paul is thinking of is the round thing with the metal
beads wound around it.  What's that called again, Len?  Quiada?

Todd (the_still_waiting_to_be_MIDI_drummer...)    

    Quijada.  But I thought that was what we ignorant gringos call a
    Vibra-slap?  I'll check my Latin Percussion catalog, if I can find
    it amongst the piles of "literature" decorating my floors...
    
    len.
    

Hmmm, I thought the Vibra-slap was a ball attached to a wood block by
means of a bent rod.  When the ball is struck, it vibrates and slaps the
block a number of times...

The shaker thing I'm thinking of is sort of a spool with a handle.
There are some strung metal beads wraped around the spool which make
a shaking sound when rotated with respect to a permeated metal wrapped
around the spool's surface...


>    it amongst the piles of "literature" decorating my floors...
I think I saw it under the 14th pile on the left side of the rear of
the coffee table, beside the stack of Popular Science magazines, but
underneath the collection of Computer Music Journals (right by the 
Popular Photography tower) at the last demo... ;^)

Todd.

    nononono - (he's an Italian composer) - I know what instrument you
    mean, I'm just not sure what it's name is;  I think the quijada
    is the latin (Latin? Spanish? Cuban? what language do musicians
    speak anyway?) name for the Vibraslap.  I'll tickle my 727's buttons
    tonight and see what she says.
    
    len.
    

    I think the spool-shaker-thing in question is called an afuche (if
    that's how you spell it). It's pronounced ah-foosh.
    
    What do you drummers say? Si or no?
    
    John M.

    
    I think all I meant was a set of maracas. Remember Mick Jagger?
    
    I just want to go Shhsh clikc Shhsh Shhsh Click

How much is the 505 going to cost you, Todd?  Who are you buying it from?

Well, the one I ordered I got for $250, but I still havn't seen it yet!
It's been about 2 weeks.  And we all know how low a price we can sell 
somthing for if we don't have any...

Todd. (Ordered from "Profound Sound")

    
    I took the plunge last weekend and picked up a TR-505. I've no real
    love for crystal controlled drummers, but then I don't know any
    local flesh and blood types ...
    
    On the whole I am pleased with it and have managed to successfully
    produce some tracks without blowing either it or myself out of the
    water.
    
    One gripe: no system exclusive messages. None.
    
    This means no ability to program it (real time or not) over MIDI
    in and no way to dump memory over MIDI out.
    
    According to someone in Roland technical support (is that a
    contradiction in terms?) it was a marketing decision not to support
    system exclusive messages in the TR-505. I could believe it, but
    anyone know any different?
    
    I guess I'll have to sequence it over MIDI to use off-machine drum
    tracks. At least their marketeers didn't decide to have all drum
    voices only respond to the same MIDI channel ... :-)
    
    Robert-the-newly-mechanized
    
    

    The main reason they did was to make it cheap (a "marketing" decision).
    Yeah, it's probably all software, entailing only trivial manufacturing
    costs (say, another 32KB of memory?), but more software (especially
    to handle a lot of system exclusive stuff) means more development
    effort, more testing effort, *more time to market*.
    
    You don't really believe software is *free*, do you?
    
    You could've had everything you wanted (and more) in a TR-707/727
    pair.  But you would've been "stuck" with all the drum sounds
    on one channel (really not a serious limitation, compared to the
    505's other limitations; even the MC500 requires that all voices
    on the rhythm track be on the same channel), and it would've cost
    you about 4 times as much.
    
    Did you see the TR505/707/909/RX21 comparison elsewhere in this
    conference?
    
    len.
    

    
    No, Len, I don't believe that software is free (that's what pays
    me). However, my contact at Roland mentioned that they had the TR-505
    set up with system exclusive messages (he didn't say what was
    implemented) but they were pulled out for marketing reasons. He
    implied that no additional memory was needed.
    
    Also, I think I made a mistake in my humourous closing remark -
    I meant note number not channel.
    
    I did see your excellent review and wished that I lived closer than
    3000 miles - tough to hear or drop around from here.
    
    I debated getting the TR707/727 combination, but settled on the
    TR-505 as a learning step to more complex machines. I had already
    figured out I didn't like the RX21.
    
    I just get a little fed up with marketing decisions undoing work
    that has been done and essentially paid for. It would be great if
    there were some way of enforcing a certain amount of system exclusive
    message implementation, other than dropping them on the floor. Just
    a simple dump-internal-memory and/or reload, would be good. Yes,
    I know it would be complicate to specify and enforce.
    
    Robert (forever wishful)
    

It would have been nice if they made the TR707 upgradeable.  That way,
they could have put the system exclusive s/w into the TR505, and upgraded
the TR707 to match...

This lack of upgrades is the main reason that I am gonna buy a software
sequencer for my C64 rather than an all-in-one unit like a QX or MSQ...

Todd.

    What I would like is a TR707/727 with replaceable chips.  Especially
    if you could trade voices for time.  I'd buy a TR707-priced box
    that held only two cymbals if I could replace the chips to get
    different sounds.
    
    The MC500 implementation is stored on disk, so it can be upgraded
    for the cost of a 3.5" disk.
    
    len.
    

I stated in some other topic that I was gonna look up the exclusive voice
groups of the TR505 and post them.  This seems like the appropriate note
to do so.

	Group 1.  Bass
	Group 2.  Snare
	Group 3.  Hi-tom/Mid-tom/Lo-tom/Timbale
	Group 4.  Hand_clap/Rim_shot
	Group 5.  Open_hi-hat/Closed_hi-hat
	Group 6.  High_conga/Low_conga
	Group 7.  High_cowbell/Low_cowbell
	Group 8.  Crash/Ride

Voices within a particular group are mutually exclusive (only one can sound 
at any one time).  Sounding a voice in group n before a previously sounded 
voice from the same group has completely decayed results in a truncation 
of the previous voice.

Another thing about the TR505 that hasn't been mentioned.  The batteries are
not just for memory backup - you can run the 505 off batteries (for about 15
hours).  Another nice feature - the machine kicks off when the batteries run
down past a certain threshold thus insuring that the memory power is not 
depleted.

Todd.

    It's time.  I've fiddled with 'em in stores, drum-o-rama says OK,
    and there's ~$300 left on my Visa limit.  I want my 505.
    
    Which stores(Mass or NH) or mail-order shops have the best price
    on this bang-for-the-buck-box?  Are there any options (power supply,
    tape-out cable, pigdin-english manuals, ...) that I should consider?
    
    Thanks,
    Dave

I'm glad you asked, Dave.  Yes, you do need an external power supply (9V).
This I didn't know when I bought it.  It does come with batteries, though,
so you can push off getting the power supply for about 15 drum machine
hours or so :-).

The best price I've seen is $250 from Profound sound.  Manny's wanted
$295 I think, so Profound is the place to get'em to save a buck.  They
charge $4 for using a credit card tho (they like to use COD).  If you
decide to go with Profound, talk to Scott and tell him Todd Rhodes sent
you.  1-800-637-6863.

Todd.

    re .66 etc.
    
    The TR505 has another nice feature... when you replace the batteries,
    you don't lose any of your programs.  There must be another backup
    battery inside the box.  Yes, Roland has their act together.
    
    

    
    more likely a BFC than battery.
    
    ron
    

    What's a BFC?  ("Very large" capacitor?)  Almost all Roland gear has a
    lithium battery onboard for memory power when not powered from an AC line.

    The capacitor solution usual includes an admonishment to users that
    you only have a minute or so to change the batteries.  The CZ-101
    does this, if I recall correctly.
    
    len.
    

    
    You got it: Big "Fat" (in mixed company, else "**cking" 
    prefered by seasoned engineers) Capacitor. Which these
    days isnt all that big physically.
    
    Applause to Roland. The better solution, of course. 
    
    Note that the "BF" prefixes numerous nouns and can
    easitly become a part of your vocabulary, although
    too frequent use may indicate immaturity.
        
    BFD (Deal)...BFC (chord,chops,chevy...)...etc.
    

    Anybody out there selling a 505 ?
    
    If so how much.
    
    Need to know by 4:00 p.m.
    
    Thanks
    
    Mike
    

    
    	No 505, but I do have a 606 for sale. Mint condition.  $95 takes
    it.
    	- km_1

    Yup.
    
    I bought a 505 at 4:06:59 just kidding, but I did by one last night.
    
    Thanks anyway
    
    Mike

    re: -1
    
    correction:  by=buy
    

    
    	re .73 (I think), how much and from whom ?   I note with interest
    that they were $350 last June, $250 in October.

    
    Sam Ash just gave me a price of $245 for the TR505.  They were all
    out of the Casio RZ-1's that Dave Blickstein mentioned a while back
    for $219.  
    
    My question is this:  The guy on the phone was "pretty sure" the
    505 price included the AC adapter power source.  Manny's wanted
    $295 not including the power source (that price is about the same
    as Daddy's Junky Music Store).
    
    First, why the big price difference between Manny's and Sam Ash. I
    thought they were comparable for price.  Second, has anyone ordered the
    505 through Sam Ash?  Did it come with the adapter or was it extra? 
    
    I've had some trouble getting hold of any sales people from Profound
    Sound--they seem to be swamped with calls.  When I do get someone they
    take my number and don't call back.  Todd, I think you said you got the
    505 through Profound.  Was it with the adapter?  How long did it
    take to deliver? 
    
    Thanks,
    
    Peter

    Oops!  Just reread .68.  So it didn't come with the power source!
    Guess I'll have to talk with the Sam Ash salesman again...
    
    I had my X15 for a while without the AC adapter and the experience
    was no fun.  No more trying to save a buck by not ordering the power
    source for me!
    
    Peter

RE < Note 382.78 by 4TRACK::LAQUERRE >

	Having been in both Manny's and Sam Ash's in Manhatten and scouted
prices, I can say pretty confidently that Sam Ash is the trend-setter, price-
wise, and it seems that Manny's only reduces to keep up with the competition.
I may be wrong, but Sam Ash is always a 'first call' for me when I'm pricing
an item.

	Regarding Profound, they are, at times, quite busy.  But I just made
a call to them this morning (about 10:30) and had no problem getting through.
They are a good place for a bargain, too.  Shane's sending me the TX81Z for
the $350.  I bought the 707 from him a month ago for $299.  Delivery time to
Mass: 5 days.

	Dan

    Seems to me that when I got my 505 from Shane (Profound) (paid $279)
    I didn't get an adapter.  No big deal.  I use a Radio Shack $12
    adapter that works just fine.  I did notice buzz once, but switched
    things around and the buzz went away.  I suppose if buzz is a real
    problem, you can just use the battery power for recording.  (Of
    course, you need to be sure to switch it off before pulling the
    adapter off.)
    
    Steve

Get the Sam Ashe price, and use that as leverage when dealing with Profound.

I have a little 9v power supply that has 6 outputs meant to power the 
stomp box type of devices.  I power a compressor foot pedal and the TR505
with it just fine - highly recommended.  I plug the little power supply
into my AC power strip so that the compresser and the 505 shut off and on
with the rest of the studio.

If the TR707s are now in the $299 range, you might want to look at them
too.  I wish I had seperate outputs more often than not so that I could put
a gated reverb sound on the snare only.  Even tho I own only one reverb unit
I could lay down a drum track with gated snare going to one tape track and
the other drums going dry to another track.  I could then add normal reverb
to both tracks on mixdown.  Voila, two different reverb sounds using only
one reverb unit.

FWIW...

Todd.

>I plug the little power supply
>into my AC power strip so that the compresser and the 505 shut off and on
>with the rest of the studio.

    Na�vet� speaks ! ( LOVE to COMPOSE letters, d�n't y�u?)
    
    ..uh, (the famous 'uh') isn't using a power strip onoff switch like,
    you know, death on microprocessor-equipped electronic devices ?
    
    .. I have all my toys plugged into power strips but I switch them
    on individually since someone somewhere told me emphatically NOT
    to leave them 'on' and hit the power strip switch.
    
    Soliciting confirmation / denial ..
    
    karl_in_the_South(western)land,_NOT_Napoleon_!

    re:-.1 Ditto.  I've lost data due to the ol' switching of power,
    in spite of battery backups.  
    
    Steve

    Why should switching them all on at once make any diff?
    
    I do this kind of thing all the time.
    
    Turning them on individually or all at once should make no difference.
    Further, plugging them in or using the power switch should make
    no difference either, assuming that they use the standard ``switch
    on the back'' technique.  If the power switch is ``soft'' then some
    bets may be off.  For example, the Mac-II is powered on by hitting
    a key on the keyboard
    
    But in my (in)finite EE wisdom, I can't imagine a situation where
    powerstripping a bunch of devices would be any worse than just simply
    turning them on individually.  Of course you could always design
    something into the supply which would roach the electronics under
    such conditions :-)
    
    
    Steph
    
    
    

    Well, the sequence can be important with computer equipment, sometimes.
    That's why they invented sequencers (the kind that power up equipment
    in sequence.  I've accidentally powered my 505 up and down without
    loss.  But, another drum machine I had couldn't handle it any way
    besides the switch or it would trash the sequences.  My guess is
    that when the power came in via the jack, the battery was cut out
    of the circuit by a switch on the jack and put back in circuit when
    the power switch was set to off.
    
    Steve
    

    If I power up my 3 synths, sequencer and drum machine using the
    master switch on the distribution bar I can rest assured some
    sort of glitch will happen.
    
    Dunno why...
    
    Edd

    Many sequencers (and some synths) send MIDI commands (e.g., OMNI
    OFF) at power up.  Depending on various power supply parameters
    and other design considerations, hitting several devices at the
    same time with line voltage from a switched power strip may not
    produce anything like simultaneous attainment of operational state.
    It is quite possible that one device may go operational halfway
    through a MIDI message from some other device.  E.g., my J-106 comes
    up "instantly", but the JX-10 takes about 2 seconds to initialize
    itself and the the SRVs take even longer.  It's about a second from
    when the TR707 power switch goes in to when its lights start flashing.
    Etc.
    
    Some of my devices I leave with the power switch in the on position;
    they come up off the power strip switch.  Others I power up manually.
    The MIDI switch box is always powered up first (it's on the power
    strip switch), then the drum machines, then the synths (the JX last,
    as it wants to be master and sends things), and the MC500 sequencer
    very last (it really is the master, but sometimes the switch box
    is set up to route the JX directly rather than through the MC500).
    This always works, and doesn't take that much (additional) time.
    
    Actually, I have more of a problem remembering to turn everything
    off.
    
    len.
    

    
    Well, my TR-505 arrived from Sam Ash on Monday.  I paid $245 and it
    came without an AC adapter like you folks said.  I've been using with
    the battery pack with no problem so far, but I'm curious about the
    AC power supplies cited in .81 and .82.  I noticed some adapters
    say 9V 100mA, while the 505 asks for 9V 30mA.  Is this something to
    watch out for.  I don't want to ruin my new toy by using the
    wrong power supply!
    
    As for a quick initial review on the 505 as a new user, I have to
    say the first night was a little confusing.  It took me a while
    to get going with it.  The user interface and the manual aren't
    too great when it comes to an overview of any type, but by the second
    night things started clicking in to place.  I was able to grasp
    the concept of building drum "tracks" with a series of one-measure
    long "patterns."  
    
    After about two hours last night (night #2) I had programmed my first
    complete song--and it actually sounds great!  The most fun was when I
    laid down the bass track after the drum and rhythm tracks. You have to
    realize that I've been recording songs on my Fostex X-15 for about two
    years WITHOUT a drum machine.  Wow, what a difference it makes! 
    
    Thanks for all the advice and suggestions I've found in this notes
    conference.  I'm happy with both my CZ-1000 and the 505, both of
    which I bought after getting all the facts in this conference!
    
    Peter    

    Congratulations!  As far as the supply goes, I think you'll be happier
    with a higher-current supply (9V @ 100 mA) in general, because it
    may tend to be quieter than a lower-capacity supply.  The current
    rating basically means that at the particular current the thing
    starts to put out garbage, as a rule.  You won't hurt it with a
    supply that has a higher rating.  Also, two supplies can have the
    same rating, but one be clearly superior if it has better filtering
    or voltage regulation.  In other words, don't get suckered into
    buying a real cheapie supply, or you may be disappointed with buzzing
    or hum.
    
    Steve

    Re .-1 : you don't have to worry as long as the adapter "ma" rating
    is equal to or greater than the TR505 "ma" demand.
    
    You *do* have to worry that the adapter "VOLTS" rating is the same
    as the TR505 requirement.
    	
    Exception:  Some devices (notably DOD/Digitech stomp boxes) are
    rated to work "from 6 to 15 volts" or some other humungous range.
    Any adapter in that range (of "VOLTS"), and that has at least
    as many "ma" will work.
    
    MURPHY STRIKES BACK:  Not all adapters have the same plug.  Those
    that do have the same plug sometimes have the polarity reversed...
    i.e. on some adapters tip is negative, on some it is positive.
    Some adapters have switches to set this (or repluggable ends on
    the output cord).  And some devices don't even take DC in their
    adapter jacks, they take 20 Volts AC- notable example is the 
    Yamaha DX100.  
    	
    	GETTING THIS PART WRONG MAY FRY YOUR NEW TOY!!!
    
    Fortunately, most toys have a little diagram near the adapter socket
    that looks like this...
                           
                    ------
                   /      \
       A  ------------O   |===========  B
                   \      /
                    ------
                                      
    where A and B are either "+" or "-".   As drawn, whatever A is is
    the polarity (+ or -) of the TIP  (think of it as though you were
    viewing the plug end-on).  Switch/replug/purchase an adapter that
    matches this polarity.
                                     
                          

    I tried a Radio Shack 9v supply on my 505 - it was too noisy. The
    supply from my Sony portable CD player worked just fine, and the
    Radio Shack supply works fine on the Sony.
    
    David
    

    Okay, so when you program a TR-505 you get 6 levels (one is silent)
    that you can set the instruments to.  But, while you program the
    thing all you get to vary the levels dynamically is the accent.
    So, you can pretty quickly program up something that is close to
    what you want.  BUT, I figured this meant that the 505 would only
    respond to 5 ranges of input velocity, too.  *WRONG!*  I set up 32 
    measures on my QX5 with a crescendo of quarter note bass drum beats 
    going from a velocity of 1 to 127.  I then watched where my meters 
    peaked on the dry signal as it played.  With every other increment 
    I was able to observe the peak point step up!  It appears that there 
    are about 64 stages or so.  I feel lots better!  This feature is *not* 
    documented in the manual.
    
    Steve

    We demonstrated this at the great TR vs RX drum machine faceoff.
    There's a note about it somewhere in this conference.
    
    Note that *not all* voices of a given drum machine may have this
    kind of dynamic range.  E.g., on the TR-727, the high and low agogos
    have only one level!
    
    len.
    

    Wellll, it was news to me, anyway.  I'm finding it a lot easier
    to work stuff out on the 505, dump to the sequencer, and customize
    the sounds (diddling with velocity and such).  Makes it much more
    alive.  I know, I know, that's old hat ...
    
    Steve

    far out
    
    re .95 - I've been doing that too.  However, my ESQ won't let me
    edit the velocity data.  rats...
    

    I recently picked up a used TR-505 & everything seems to work except
    the LEVEL adjustment. I can get into the LEVEL mode & move the values
    up & down (0 to 5), but, nothing happens to the the output levels
    on the mono output. I try it for all of the sounds & varying the
    levels down to 0 & everything stays the same. I only want to set
    the Crash Cymbal to a lowere value (I'm driving an MT-32 off of
    the TR505 - Nice how all of the drum sounds match up, as well as
    both of them being driven by a sequencer - Alesis MMT-8).
    
    My question: What am I doing wrong????
    
    							Jens 

    The level controls work only for the pads and internal sequencing.  
    The 505 is probably responding to your MIDI velocity input.  I think
    it always sends out a velocity of 64 on the MIDI out.  Zat solve
    your problem?
    
    Steve_who_still_loves_his_505!

    It might be sending 64 to the midi out (accent makes it 96), but,
    when I run the internal sequencer, or hit the pads, it still does
    not change the volume of the crash cymbol (or any of the other 
    drum sounds that I try it in) out of the TR-505. I'll admit that
    the TR-505 does drive my MT-32's drums, but I don't think that it
    has any effect on this. The combined crash cymbol of the 2 drum
    machines are too loud for me, so, If I can turn 1 or both down,
    I'll be happy. The two complement each other reasonably well. I
    wanted the TR-505 for the sequencer more than anything else (I still
    rely very heavily on a TR-606 & need the pattern capabilities that
    the ROLAND drum machine sequencers have built into them), since
    I like the drums on the MT-32. The bass drum & snare don't always
    have the power that I wanted (the signal is substantially lower
    out of the MT-32 also), but have the digital reverb accenting them
    in a positive way. I mix the dry (but heavily equalized) TR-505
    with the MT-32 & they sound good together.
    
    I'll putz with the 505 again tonight (I'm working on a series of
    Chicago tunes that eventually end up on the MMT-8 sequencer).
                                                            
    If the TR-505 is somehow broken, with respect to the LEVEL, I may
    pull it apart & see if I can disable the Crash Cymbol (there was
    a note further back mentioning that the outputs of all signals could
    be brought out to seperate outputs - Maybe this is a better solution
    anyway).
    
    							Jens
    

    eeek!  If LEVEL changes but the output level doesn't while the 505 is 
    running standalone, you got problems...
    
    Steve

    I found the problem. You were correct, in that no matter what you
    set the level to on the TR-505, it always sends out the drum part
    at level 64 (or 96 if accent is turned on), but then, if you take
    the output of the TR-505, snake it thru a few other devices, and
    eventually have the MIDI info that the TR-505 sent come back to
    it's input, it plays what it sees, sort of:
    
    
    
    
    		+-------------+           +---------------------------+
    		| TR-505  out |------>----| in     all sorts of stuff |
		|          in |----<------| thru    connected         |
		+-------------+           +---------------------------+

                                                                       
    Unfortunately, I need to leave this way most of the time. I put
    a switch on the in port & this gives me more control.
    
    Thanks for the help.
    							jens

    
    Here's a good MIDI brain-teaser....
    
    Last night I hooked up my Roland TR-505 to my Korg Symphony (O3) for
    the purpose of comparing the drum sounds.  The Korg has a simple kit on
    board (two basses, two snares, lo/mid/hi toms, crash and two rides,
    open and closed hi-hats, rim shot).  The 505 allows mapping the
    transmit channel and note numbers over MIDI so I set it up to drive the
    O3 drums, then turned on the 505 and using a mixer, faded between the
    505's audio out and the O3.

    All went well until I hit a pattern where I heard a squeaky noise that
    I couldn't identify coming from the O3.  It turned out to be the open
    hi-hat.  When triggered from a keyboard, you get the splashing sound
    you would expect, but triggered from the 505 you get a clipped "chink". 
    I noticed that the 505's *internal* voice lasted a normal length of
    time.

    I assume that the 505 sends note-offs closely after sending note-ons,
    and I am wondering whether the problem I'm seeing is due to the O3's
    interpretation of note-off or not.  Have any other noters used a 505 to
    sequence drums from another SGU (you there, Jens?), and if so, did they
    have a similar problem? BTW all the other O3 drum sounds seem to
    trigger OK.
    
							Brian

The note on/off is fairly fast for the 505. It's sort of hard to translate
the events into a time frame (being that there are 96 intervals per beat
on my MMT-8), however, I've noticed that the interval that the note is
being played is 10/96ths or less. I'd say it's closer to 3/96ths, which isn't
very long. The 505 always transmits a velocity of 48 or 96 (noaccent/accent)
for any note that it plays.

It's very possible that you are seeing a clipped signal. This doesn't cause
any problem on my MT-32 or a D-110, as you are triggering a sample, rather
than playing some note for a given duration. The MMT-8 lets you edit these
durations (I usually use the 505 to play parts of my drum patterns & then I
go in and edit velocities to match up with what I entered via the CZ-101/MX-8
- the MX-8 lets me define the velocity that I want in the form of a patch,
Ie, the Bass drum/Snare is usually at 115, ride cymbal/hi-hat at 100, hand
claps/crash cymbal/rim shot at 120. Once I enter all of these parts, I go in
and edit velocities to make them a bit more variable. At least they are about
where I want them at this point.) Some of the MT-32 patches are more 
interesting when the duration is short (the water bells sound good if they
are 1/96th in length, for example), but patches that are dependant on a
minimum length don't work well if the duration is too short. I don't know
if this helps or not.

								Jens

    Could the 505 be using running status and sending out a NOTE-ON at 0
    velocity to emulate a NOTE OFF? It seems that this would 'clip off'
    anything other than the shortest of sounds....
    
    Edd          

    
    Well, the drums in the O3 are also samples, but at least the open
    hi-hat seems to be sensitive to note-offs; as I said the crash cymbal
    appears to work OK. 
    
    BTW, Eirikur mentioned in the O3/P3 note (#1642) that he has seen
    similar stuff on some of the other drum sounds both built-in and ROM
    card, including the rock crash symbal, when driven from an arpeggiator.
    So it would appear to be an O3 bug.  Time for some more experiments.
    
    							Brian
    

    
    Went home and checked again, and yes only the open hi-hat seems to be
    affected.  It doesn't matter which TR-505 pad I use to drive it,
    either.
    
    I'm thinking it is set up to respond to note-off so that you can
    trigger first the open hi-hat, then the closed hi-hat and get the sound
    of the open one to shut off.  The TR-505 itself and many other drum
    machines get around this by not allowing both the open and closed
    hi-hats to sound at the same time.  
    
    I guess if I want to use the O3 drums with the 505, I will simply use
    the 505's open hi-hat sound if I need one.
    
    							Brian

    If the -505 works the way most other Roland drum machines do, my
    guess is it sends (as Edd suggests) a NOTE ON with 0 velocity (Roland's
    preferred way of saying NOTE OFF) after a delay that is a function
    of the current pattern resolution, probably some nominal percentage
    of it (like 80%).  The -808, -606, -909 and -707/-727 machines all had
    4 choices of resolution - 8th triplets, 16ths, 16th triplets, and
    32nds.  These work out to 32, 24, 16 and 12 Roland CPTs (96 CPT
    per quarter note), or 8, 6, 4 and 3 MIDI clocks (24 MIDI clocks
    per quarter note).
    
    When used as a sequencer, the drum machines send NOTE OFFs (or their
    equivalent) so an attached synth (which may not think like a drum
    machine and provide some sustainable sounds) doesn't hang.
    
    len.
    

    I believe that the 505 *does* send velocity information out to MIDI.
    What it sends is a value between 0 and 127 that is calculated based
    on the level assigned to the particular instrument and whether or
    not there is an accent on the beat.  My recollection is that there
    are a total of about 64 increments rather than the full 128 increment
    spread.  In addition, the 505 tends to respond to only one velocity
    per beat, even though on a given beat it may send info out with
    different velocities.
    
    Steve

	As I mentioned, my TR-505 send either nothing or 2 possible
	velocities, 48 and 96, no matter what you set the levels to
	on the TR-505 (those levels are local only to the TR-505).
	When I looked on my sequencer to see what the durations 
	actually were, they can be as short as 3/96ths of a beat, but
	95% are around 10/96ths to 13/96ths. I don't know of any way to
	change the note on/off times of modify the velocity (I'd like to
	see this as I normally tweek these values extensively on my
	sequencer).
							Jens

    As a sequencer, the -707 sends velocities that depend on the instrument
    level, the master level, and the accent applied.
    
    As an SGU, the -707 sets its global velocity (applied to all instruments)
    based on the last velocity it sees.  So, if two instruments (e.g.,
    snare and hihat) are nominally on the same beat, the fact that
    the MIDI protocol is serial (which means that one instrument's
    NOTE ON has to precede the other's) means that the effective velocity
    applied to both sounds depends on which instrument's NOTE ON arrives
    last, which depends on what order the sequencer chooses to send messages
    that nominally occur at the same time.
                        
    I don't know if the -505 does the same.
    
    len.
     

    re: .110 (TR-707 behavior)
    
    >>> As an SGU, the -707 sets its global velocity (applied to all
    >>> instruments) based on the last velocity it sees.  
    >>> ...
    
    I'm not sure I understand this.  Since each NOTE ON has a velocity, I
    would have thought that each sound would trigger with its own velocity. 
    Is the -707 doing some sort of internal "caching" and triggering notes
    on clusters all with the same velocity.  For instance, if I'm playing
    the -707 from a keyboard and hit 2 notes together, does the -707 do
    something like "well those 2 notes were only a few milliseconds apart
    so I'll trigger them both but use the velocity of the 2nd?
    
    This sounds like what you're saying but it's definitely not the
    behavior I would expect.  If I'm following your description correctly,
    do you have any idea how far apart notes have to be before they will
    each respond to their own velocities?
    
    Thanks for this reminder (I think I read this a few years ago.)
    
    - John -

    The NOTE ONs must come in serially.  The implied design is that
    the outputs of all the individual voices (mixed to some level implied
    by per instrument levels) are summed into a final amplifier stage
    whose gain is determined by the last velocity value seen.  So
    for two instruments nominally sounding at the same time, the one
    whose NOTE ON arrives first will sound at its specified velocity
    until the 2nd NOTE ON arrives.  If they're close enough together,
    it will be as if both sounded at the 2nd's velocity.  This design
    means only one velocity controlled amplifier is needed, saving
    considerably on cost, and not giving up much in terms of function,
    depending on how you look at it.
    
    len.
     

    
    All of the older Roland machines I've used (707, 505, Dr. Rhythm)
    program velocity internally by use of an "accent" which you program in
    as if it were a drum voice.  It affects *all* the voices sounding
    during that beat.  Such an architecture, as Len points out, doesn't
    lend itself to velocity control of individual voices when responding to
    MIDI.  
    
    

    
    I just picked up a used TR-505 (also just discovered COMMUSIC) and
    wondered if anyone else has a problem with "floating" tempo control?
    I'll set the tempo at the start of a song, (checking it on the display)
    and 20-30 seconds later it seems to jump up by a count of 1->2.
    Are there other possibilities (MIDI-in?) for controlling the tempo
    on the 505 besides the *sensitive* dial?
    
    rob (not really MIDI minded yet :) )

    
    
    Yep !
    
    As with most/all midi drum machines you can drive it from external
    clock I.E. sequencer or somesuch or with (as you are doing) the
    internal sequencer. 
    
    I used to have one of these but never noticed any drift in the timings.
    If you have an external clock generation method then you are O.K
    
    
    						Paul.

    I remember seeing notes in this file on drifting 505s, for waht it's
    worth. Something about replacing a pot to fix it?
    
    Richard.                                        

    
    Re: .106
    
    I finally set up a short drum track on my MSQ-100 and drove the O3 with
    that, and of course, all the sound sincluding the open hi-hat were
    fine.  I noticed that there is also truncation of the toms when using
    the 505 as the driver.  I guess if I really want to utilize the O3
    drums, I will need to sequence them on the MSQ-100, not an overly
    cheery thought.
    
    							Brian

    re: .114
    
    Rob,
    	Are you syncing to external clock or internal? If external the
    problem is probably whatever is driving the clock, if internal it
    is probably the TR-505.
    
      	One possibility is the tempo pot on the unit. You are using
    essentially and analog device (potentiometer) to control a digital
    signal (tempo). If your TR-505 is old and/or dirty, the voltage
    level from the pot may be fluctuating. I always found it a little
    difficult to set an *exact* tempo when I had a TR-505. 
      	You might try cleaning the pot with some contact cleaner. Otherwise
    a 1->2 count shift that holds steady doesn't seem like too much
    of a problem in most applications...
    
    		Mark
    

    
    
    Yeepppii!!!!!!
    
    	It's not just my TR505 that drifts tempo's.
    
    I have had the thing for about 3 years and hadden't noticed any problem
    till about 6 months ago. Our drummer was using it as a click track and
    kept on complaining the tempo shifted. It seemed to get worse so I
    pulled out the pot and ran some wires out to an external pot in a box.
    The value I have is the wrong one so I cant go lower than about 90 bpm.
    	However it does not shift tempo's anymore. I am in the process of
    getting a new pot but they are rare where I am  ( 1 Meg Alpine ).
      
    BC  

    
    thanks for the replies,
    
    	re: 118
    	  Yes I am using the internal tempo control, so it is definitely
    	the TR-505's problem. Guess the cleaner suggestion is the best
    	thing to go with for now. You're right, 1-2 bpm's isn't too
    	big of a problem, but I'm using the unit (standalone) for live
    	acoustic accompanyment and it takes the pot a little longer
    	than I'd like to "zero-in" on the tempo I'm trying to set, (in-
    	between songs).
    
  I have another question about controlling the 505:
    	In order to be in pattern play mode .AND. add in extra *bangs*
    	(like a cymbol crash here and there) you must (A) select the
    	desired pattern, then (B) get the big "P" on the lcd via 
    	shift+some_key. My problem is in selecting a different pattern
    	for the next song. It seems that I have to get out of the "P"
    	mode (requires 2 hands to hit shift+that_some_key), select the
    	next pattern, AND the hit shift+some_key again. Is there another
    	way to switch patterns while in that "P" mode of pattern play?
    	(ie requiring less key strokes) Again, I'm using the unit
    	standalone and don't have it midi controlled.
    rob

    re: .120
    
    Well it takes a bit of programming and planning... but if you string
    your patterns together into a "song" you can keep the 505 in the
    "P" mode and play all the extra notes you want.
    
    	Mark

    re:.121
    
    	My real goal here is flexibility over an entire live set of
    songs (roughly 12-14 songs, each using a single pattern, and I
    need to switch patterns and restart *quickly* between songs.) So,
    I can't really "string patterns together into a song and keep the
    505 in the 'P' mode".
    	I guess if I'm not utilizing the track play all that much, I
    could achieve what I'm looking for (for up to 6 consecutive songs)
    by having each of the 6 tracks just repeating a single unique pat-
    tern. This should work since you can always add "bangs" while in
    track play mode, and only 1 key is needed to switch tracks.
    
    rob

    
    Possible stupid solution:
    
    The TR-505 will repond to MIDI messages in either track or pattern
    play, so if you use an external controller (a keyboard or drum pads) to
    play the "extra" hits while patterns are playing, you're all set. 
    
    A Yamaha DD-5 drum pad setup at a cost of under $100 will let you
    trigger up to four of the 505 sounds.   Plus the pads are
    bigger....easier to hit!!!
    
    
    							Brian

    HAS ANYONE TRIED THE DIFFERENT OUTPUT MODS
      P.K
    

    See 800.6.
    
    Please don't type in all upper case....

Does any know if it's possible to convert the MIDI
out port on the TR505 to MIDI thru?


-Tom

    I'd talked to Tom about this off-line. Could it be as simple as
    disconnecting the wires currently connected to the OUT and then
    wiring the IN to the OUT in parallel?
    
    Edd

    
>    I'd talked to Tom about this off-line. Could it be as simple as
>    disconnecting the wires currently connected to the OUT and then
>    wiring the IN to the OUT in parallel?
    
    This probably won't work.  It probably wouldn't be fatal to the
    hardware to try it, but there's a chance you'll destroy something if
    you do it.
    
    The way to do this is to get a merge box (like the Anatek Pocket Merge)
    but this may be more than you want to spend on this application...
    

    > ...get a merge box.
    
    A thru box is what he wants. There's no need to merge anything...
    
    Just how *is* a thru port wired?
    
    Edd

    You probably *could* do a hack with a couple of wires, but you'd need
    to know the internal circuit.  My guess is that you have something
    like:
    
    
    IN o--- isolator ----- Inverter -----------> other stuff
    
                                  other stuff ------ Inverter -----o OUT
    
    Which you could rewire to:
    
    
    IN o--- isolator ----- Inverter -----+------> other stuff
                                         |
                     other stuff --X X---+- Inverter -----o OUT
    
    Steve

    Yep, I think you need to do something like .130; the problem is the
    MIDI "physical layer" is current loop, and I don't think you can just
    parallel things the "obvious" way. 
    
    len.
    

I think this is far too complicated. I think I'll just buy a thru
box...

    
    
    You just can't sum two digital signals together in the analog domain
    and hope to get intelligible output.  Combining two asynchronous
    outputs has a high probability of generating noise and distressed
    output devices.
    
    The merge box, when fed the output of the TR-505 and the same input as
    the TR-505, becomes a "thru" box.
    
    

    ...but Tom doesn't want to merge the data from the 505 with anything.
    He's got 2 SGUs with no THRU port that he's trying to add to his rig.
    
    Edd

    
    Obviously, I'm confused about the setup here.  If he's tryging to just
    add some SGUs, he could use a 1 in/3 out buffer box to fan out his
    MIDI output stream to the SGUs.  If he wants something out of one of
    these new boxes, in addition to the input MIDI stream, a merge function
    would yield the desired thru output.
    
    The good news is, buffer boxes are much cheaper than mergers, since
    they can be totally implemented in the analog domain.
    

    Me too.. seems if his units lack a MIDI thru, use a MERGE box to ..
    
    oh.  wrong direction.. he's got one controller and multiple SGU's,
    whereas a merge/buffer box merges MIDI from multiple controllers into
    one MIDI line.
    
    NEVER MIND!
    
    karl

    
    
    A buffer box has a single input which it sends unaltered through
    multiple outputs.  Like my Kawai line mixer has a one in, 3 out buffer
    built in...
    
    The merge box performs the reciprocal function - multiple inputs, one
    output.
    
    But I'm still confused about the original problem...
    

    The problem is he has a sequencer with only one OUT port, but two SGUs
    with no THRU ports and he wants to hook them all together.
    
    								Brian

    
    So he needs a buffer box, right?
    

Geez, I didn't think it'd cause this much "discussion".. ;^)


Brian's right. I need to hook up all of my gear, but I don't
have enought "thru" connections to make it happen, since two
of my devices have no thru port. 

What I need is a 1 in/multiple out box of some sort. I don't
need a merge. 

Anyway, the original question was posed because I really
didn't want to spend the bucks for a thru box. Brian was
kind enough to loan me a 2 in/3 out device.  

I hooked it up last night and everything works great. 

-T
(A MIDI neophyte)

    
    
>	Geez, I didn't think it'd cause this much "discussion".. ;^)
    
    	Just gives you an idea of how slow things are going in this conf.
    
    	We need a Kurzweil blowout or another multi-timbrality "honesty"
    	discussion to rave about...
    
    	Though the "which PC" jihad was fun for a bit.