Conference napalm::commusic_v1

Just to get the ball rolling:

    "Drummers are as unnecessary as bass players and guitarists given
    today's technology."
    
    - Len SIVA::Fehskens (drummer extraordinaire)

    re .0	Why do you imagine the score would have to be written out ?  
    Or even "composed" on the screen of a terminal ?   

    All this A.I. stuff we hear about would have us believing that music
    theory could be incorporated into a rules based system and the thing
    could just be set up to invent motifs, repeat with variations,
    harmonize in n parts and GO !  Soft parameters for rule conformance
    would be no problem, they could be pseudo randomly varied to simulate
    "creativity" or "originality".  It may be a way off, but concievable now. 
    
    	Whether we/they would want to do it, and what it would be "worth"
    to do it, are a whole different set of questions, but I have to believe
    that it will become possible fairly soon to eliminate the performing
    musician as well as the composer.

    	Reg
        

    Of course instrumenatalists are necessary.  That's where the creativity
    is.  I too like to play my songs over and over again until I get it
    right and get the 'perfect' recording on my little 4 track machine. You
    get really nice songs that way.  
         But for me, the real creativity comes
    when you are at a Jam session and everyone is 'getting into it' and the
    new ideas, sounds, and songs come 'flowing' out of you. People's moods,
    feelings, and reactions are transformed into music, right at the time
    the feelings are happening. Then you take the cassette tape out of your
    'box' and take it home to make the perfiect recording of your new song.
         It's like trying to write this note.  It's easier to get my point
    across if I'm talking to a person, where they can see my expressions,
    then it is to type into a computer and try to make the feelings come
    out on the other end. 
         But the computers are great for perfecting the
    music.  It's like being able to edit and spell check the songs after
    they are played. Of course, there are those times when you feel
    creative and there are no other jamming musicians around. 
         
         This man's opinion?....You need both! 
    
    Mike_who_can't_spel_good_either
    

    ahem... Hello, group. Put those knives away, please. I find that
    for me this whole issue fractures along one major line: live music
    presentation vs. recorded music. The computer is another major player
    that is becoming de rigeur in the studio, but, possibly because
    of the human interest and flash factor, is not seen often in live
    performance, Howard Jones excepted.
    
    The computer can be seen as a passive recorder of MIDI performances.
    The studio is the ideal, sterile, temperature-controlled environment
    for colorless, sweatless, computer-based, inhumanly perfect
    productions. Wish I could afford one. But face it, floppies ARE 
    cheaper than openreel tape of ANY dimension. Why move into printing 
    scores off the sequencer when no one can read music anymore ?
    
    Do audiences go to SEE musicians perform, or to HEAR them perform?
    Back in 1969, I was in a group that was so ideological that we
    performed our original timestretch rock a couple of times backlit
    behind a huge white sheet. Only our silhouettes were visible. 
    We didn't gig a lot. Being young and not too bright, it took 
    me a couple of years (long after the band broke up) to figure out
    what we had been seeking was TO RECORD. Ideally, to just play our
    recording thru a large P.A., with only the deck onstage. Thankfully,
    I never actually attempted this, Detroit audiences being unacquainted
    with the subtleties of performance art.
    
    Back to the "Drummers/bass/guitarists are unnecessary" topic. Well,
    back in the dawn of Data Processing, I heard that computers would
    soon make lots of employment categories obsolete. Being young and
    fairly bright, I decided that wasn't gonna happen to ME, so I went
    to college and learned all about Computer Programming. So. Get bright,
    guys! Get that Guitar MIDI controller ! Buy that drum computer!
    After all, who knows how to play it better than you? Certainly not
    some studio wimp keyboard/computer nerd! Put some SWEAT into it!
    
    And don't forget the colored lights and dry ice.
    

    
        
    

    About Jan Hammer -
    
    True he does a good job a imitating guitar, but he learned his guitar
    riffs from play along side the likes of John McLaughlin, Jeff Beck,
    and the late Tommy Bolin.
    
    The subject at hand -
    
    The music business is entertainment.  Most successful performers
    are multi-media stars.  On the record, main focus in a vedeo, on
    TV, on the radio, in magazines.  Madonna is on the cover of People,
    a LinnDrum.
    
    Dave

    Oh, by the way, there are a lot of unemployed drummers out there
    as a fallout of drum machines.  I'm looking to start a band and
    put an ad in the Boston Pheonix.  So far, 6 out of 8 responses have
    been drummers.  Have you seen how many drum kits there are in the
    want-ads?
    
    Dave
     

And speaking of "studio" vs. "live":

A few months ago I attended Wendy Carlos' orchestral transcription of her 
digital "tour de force," DIGITAL MOONSCAPES.

I can honestly say that for the first time in history, the *orchestra* sounded 
like a poor imitation of the *synthesizer*!!


John M.

    
    	You beat me to it!  I was going to start this very same note!
    
    	No time now, but here's a summary of my position:
    
    	Instrumentalists may soon be obsolete.  Musicians will remain
    valuable. 
    
    	It is possible to create great works in a 'sterile' studio.
    Consider the works of Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler, etc. - created
    bmen sitting in little rooms by themselves.
    
    	Everything will change radically within our lifetimes.
    
    							,km1

    I'd love to dump all the instumentalists for recording purposes.
    I like having control and not having to put up with someone else's
    absurd ideas of what my song should sound like. Never met anyone
    who could read my mind and play what he/she read on a guitar. 
    And if I can't program the synths to do it, my utopia would be to
    learn how to play the instrument myself and let the multi-trak
    deal with it.
    
    For live performance... give me all the instrumentalists you can
    find. I think people go to WATCH their favorite tune being performed.
    Performance art be damned; watching a tape spin on stage is not
    my idea of a good time. I wanna see a show!
    
    Is that OK?
    
    Edd who_would_probably_be_unbearable_to_perform_live_with_anyhow

    
    This Sunday's DOONESBURY is on this very subject.
       J:"It's all canned? What about the horn section? and percussion?"
       F:"Get real, Jim. Drummers are extinct.  And with the Emulator,
    	  I got horns out the kazoo!"

    I think many people will have to drop out of the music seen because
    they can't understand the new technology.  Many good minds could
    be lost.
    
    On the other hand, many people who never could perform (Like me)
    will now have a shot at creating real salable music.
    
    It's just evolution in action again.  This time it is in music.
    I don't know if it is a change for the better.
    
    						MJC

    Well I come at this from two standpoints, First this IS the live
    vs studio argument, sort of , coming in from the back side......
    
    Second, if everthing goes to hell and a handbasket and the big one
    drops.....if anybody is left there will be muscians and music, without
    the computers.
    
    Jan Hammer's strat sounds very poor next to a competent guitarist,
    as someone else mentioned you cannot (at this time) get fretboard
    technique out of a DX-7 or a Kurzweil or anthing else. Furthurmore
    no keyboardist (who doesn't play guitar) is ever gonna get fretboard
    technique out of a synth no matter how sophistocated the synth is.
    (A side note here is that MIDI wouldn't have enough parameters spec'd
    to make it possible..hopelessly obsolete..but that's another argument)
    
    All of this stuff is good for muscians to develop new ideas in the
    studio, very few of them have been able to move outside the studio
    without muscians (Howard Jones excluded).
    
    I use my TR-707 because I do not have a drummer at my beck and call
    and because it allows me to work at low volumes at any hour of the
    day or night, a distinct advantage for anyone with a family. This
    stuff is just another tool, it is not the end of muscians.......
    I feel rather strongly about this as a number of people who haven't
    the discipline to learn an instrument will be proclaiming their
    sequenced compositions as masterpieces of the computer age of music.
    I feel that one should learn to play their instrument if they are
    to be a true muscian. This is why I do not consider myself a keyboard
    player, I'm a guitarist. But now thanks to MIDI I could be the BAch
    of the '80's on my JX3-P....(just add a midi interface and
    software, stir gently...and...presto!!your a muscian without any
    training, discipline or expertise....)
                         
    Am I an idealist? YES!
    
    dave

    Since I was quoted as a provocation, I feel I ought to explain what
    I really meant.  That was tongue in cheek - I said drummers were
    as unnecessary as bassists and guitarists as a way of saying they
    were as NECESSARY.  Yeah, computers are neat, and powerful, and
    don't get drunk or coke-crazed or incoherently stoned, and they
    don't have egos/"attitudes".  That makes them reliable and easy
    to work with, if (AND ONLY IF) you understand the technology.  But
    so far, the technology just doesn't allow the same degree of subtlety
    and expressiveness that human performers routinely exploit.  I most
    assuredly don't believe this must or will always be the case.  There
    are some inherent expressive limits in MIDI; they will eventually
    be overcome.  Someday it will be possible to produce a performance
    executed by a computer (dedicated or general purpose, it doesn't
    matter) that is INDISTINGUISHABLE IN ALL RESPECTS (save one) from
    a human performance.  That one difference is that this performance
    will always be the same, like a recording is always the same, whereas
    no human performance can ever be the same as another.  Now, maybe
    someday we'll get to the point where the computer can introduce
    "random" variations into its performance, and maybe that "randomness"
    can be choreographed ("play this like you're a little depressed
    and have had a half dozen beers" - so the computer dutifully slops
    up its sense of time and occasionally substitutes minors for majors,
    or some such thing); the point is the difference between "computed"
    music and "human performed" music is that humans interact with their
    environment in real time and that affects the performance.  And
    yes, I'll bet we can make computers interact that way too; what
    we'll be doing is changing the nature of performance from concentrating
    on execution (no minor problem even for virtuosos) to concentrating
    on expression, with the execution taken for granted.  The instruments
    of the future will be expression oriented rather than "note" oriented.
    
    This is all by way of getting at what is for me the fundamental
    benefit and ultimate challenge of the use of computers in music:
    musicianship will now be defined in terms of expressive skills rather
    than executant skills.  That's what I mean when I tell people that
    even if you master the technology you still have to understand
    something about music.  You have to know what you want to say and
    how to express it.  Somebody recently (I think it's in the latest
    BYTE) said "becoming an expert word processor user doesn't make
    you Shakespeare".  The technology is only a tool, a very powerful
    tool, granted, but still only a means to an end.

    Finally, there is the experience of interacting with live musicians
    and an audience that no studio or computer technology can ever give
    you.  This has nothing to do with music; it has to do with the
    experience of being part of a team.  I felt the same thing when
    I was rowing (8 oared shells) and the boat was cooking that I did
    when I was playing and the band was cooking.  It involves a
    transcendance of self and integration into a larger Other that you
    will recognize and understand only if you have experienced it. 
    If I'm sounding religious it's because it's the same basic thing.
    I can do things in my studio that I can't do any other way, but
    I can do things with other musicians that I wouldn't want to do
    any other way.  Sometimes I need people, sometimes I'd rather be
    left alone.  Sometimes I want to be "god"; sometimes I want to be
    just another part of the team.  I can't, and won't, choose one over
    the other exclusively, any more that I would choose oranges over
    raspberries exclusively.  Neither is better; they're just different,
    and appropriate in different contexts or for different purposes.
    I need both, and my life is richer for being able to use both.
    
    len (who's really not that extraordinary a drummer).
     
    
    

    I try not to get involved in philosophical discussions.  They usually
    end up as subjective arguments. But I can't resist...
    
    Len is absolutely right.  The computer is a tool.  Period.
    
    I get satisfaction by using tools in my studio to unleash my
    creativity.  I get satisfaction through composing and recording
    music as a "one man band".  I enjoy the entire PROCESS of creating
    and listening and sharing.  A computer performing this process for
    me makes absolutely no sense.  *I* want to do it.
    
    As far as the financially driven world, There is definite concern
    as to the theory of computers replacing Musicians.  This however
    does not concern me as I am an Engineer, not a Musician.
    
    The bottom line:  Do what you enjoy.  If that involves emulating
    instruments with computer driven equipment, fine.  If that involves
    performing with or without computers, fine.  If that involves
    recording at home with or without computers, fine.  Computers
    are just tools.  Use them to help blossom your musical creativity.
    
    Don't try to use a computer to "emulate" the satisfaction I get
    from home recording.  It won't work.
    
    Todd.
    

    Are they neccesary ?
    
    In 10 years probably not. 
    
    But who cares, I don't don't play guitar, eat ice cream or have
    sex 'cause it's neccesary.
    
    I like it.
    
    And always will......
    
    Mike

    besides, it's the artist that counts.
    
    i don't care how much equipment you have, there is only so far
    you can go if you aren't....artistic.
    
    we may lose the necessity of instrumentalists, but technicians
    won't be the winners, artists will win out forever.
    
    rik
    

    re;-1
    
    	Until AI gets clever enough and the machines start composing.
    
    						- km

    re;-1
    
    	Yeah, but so far the results have been very primitive; they
    can only do rock & roll.
    
    						,Karl :-)

    re....the previous few
    
    but they are artists.
    not all artists paint or play an instrument. anything can be
    an art....hairdesigning, clothes designing, cooking...etc.
    
    the benefit of recording and midi and drum machines isn't that
    one no longer needs to be an instrumentalist to make music.
    
    recording is an art. Writing music and playing music and recording
    music are all arts. With midi, the artist has to expand his capabil-
    ities somewhat but still relies on his virtuosity for the final
    essence of art.
                         
    	THe real benefit of this modern midiable technology is that
    the artis, or anyone, doesn't need a full band in order to be 
    productive. No longer do we need to get a bass player and singer
    and drummer and keys and rythm and teach them the tunes and hope
    that they feel up to it and aren't too tired tonight. No longer
    do we need to schedule our practice and recording sessions well
    in advance (and who knows how we'll feel the night of practice?)
    
    	It's 2:30 a.m......I'm up and feel like working/practising/
    jamming....I head or my 4 track/8 track/16track...or just my
    midied equipment.
    	I push a couple of buttons and....there is a god!
    	everthing that i've recorded/programmed comes out at me
    in full force!
    	the bass, the drums, the rythm and keys...i can solo for
    a while..or sing!...drop out the bass and do a new bass riff...
    alter the sound of this that or the other thing....all by myself.
    am i tired of this song...? I don't have to argue with anyone
    about what to play next..i just make my decision and que up the
    proper tape....i'm ready to jam/record/practise a different
    tune.
    
    
    	ok...ya got 5 guys ....instrumentalists...and you're gonna
    jam or practise...pete, stop playing so i can say something...
    bobby...will you stop playing those drums for a second...guys,
    turn it down...we've gotta talk...oh shit....
    
    	with new midiable technology....i turn it on and off when
    i want to and don't get any arguments.
    
    	you don't need to be an instrumentalist.
    	but the instrumentalist will just join in the midi revolution
    and keep making music and probably have more fun.
    
    dve dreher...when you go into your studio...when you want to go
    into your studio...and you push that last button that starts it
    up....isn't it a little bit of heaven?
    	a whole damned band, no mistakes, everything synced up and
    you can just wail away....
    	don't you love it?
    
    	rik the arrogant animal who doesn;t know the meaning
    of lots of words.
    

Actually Rik, MIDI isn't even necessary for doing the things you're talking
about.  I've been doing it since before MIDI was around.  I enjoy being
a one man band for all the reasons you mention, and will continue to enjoy
it for years.  Not that it is a replacement for jamming with others or
anything, but an addition.  Instrumentalists will never be replaced with
computers in *my* studio...

Todd.

    re.-1
    Todd, I'll bet there's a million people out there who feel the
    same way.
    
    i can't wait until i get the rest of my neccessities.....drum
    machine, at least one key board.....i'll never leave my studio!
    
    and.....I used to invite all my musician friends over and show them
    my little studio and what it/I can do. A big mistake!
    
    	now, they won't leave!
    	I can't get any work done cuz i'm over whelmed with new-found
    friends who want to play with my 4 track.
    
    	:-)
    	rik
    
    	ps. that was a joke.
    	i'm actually quite happy with the 3 or 4 people who do come
    over to work with me. they each have different talents and lots
    of desire and ideas. i actually get a lot of work done.
    

    The only reason I could ever fathom working with non-midied humans
    *on an ongoing basis* again would be if I were to go on tour. Other
    than that, the occasional KMIDI jam suits me just fine.
    
    Nothing suits me better than having complete artistic and
    interpretational control over a piece. I never have to deal with
    someone else's attitude, style, ideas about what the piece should
    sound like, ect. So it's 3:00 AM and I need a full orchestral string
    section. No sweat! By 3:01 I've got one!
    
    No more am I bounded by a bass player who just can't do what I want.
    Into the sequencer goes the part, and out it comes. Perfect. Everytime.
    Why, I can even program "sloppy technique" in and have a garage
    band!
    
    Instrumentalists aren't going the way of the mastadon, by any means.
    They are, however, having their traditional roles redefined.
    
    I wonder if this topic came up when multitracking first came out?
    
    "Rik, turn that thing down!! I'm typing!!!"
    
    Edd who_has_a_full_orchestral_string_section_in_his_sock_drawer
     

    Well, as a certifiable MIDIac and not-often-enough acoustic drummer
    who's programmed an awful lot of (not to be confused with a lot
    of awful) drum tracks, I'm beginning to miss the things I can do
    with a real drum set that I can't do with a drum machine.  MIDI
    and synths and drum machines are sure convenient, but there really
    are tow different ways for different situations.  For the home
    studio, MIDI's great; but it'll *NEVER* make me give up playing with
    real people, no matter how much trouble it is.
    
    len.
    
    

	A home studio/midi setup is a great tool, but I think some of you are
missing the point.  A group of players bring different approaches, skills,
opinions and suggestions which, good or bad, cause you to think in a different
way.  In the basement by yourself may give you more control, but it seems to me
you could easily become creatively stagnant. Several of the people I've met with
home studios complain about the "I just can't seem to get the enthusiasm to do
stuff anymore".  Sounds like studio burnout.

	Len and I (actually mostly Len :-)) spent a few hours Tuesday night
programming a 45 second drum machine sequence (bongos type thing) for a
home-brew video a friend's doing.  A percussionist could have walked in with his
bongos and done it a few takes without any programming.  I think there remain
instances where an instrumentalist may still be a cost effective way of doing
some things. 

	I like the social aspect of being with other musicians, too.  I would
*really* miss that.

Right len.  My one-man-band ambitions will never be a replacement for good
old drumming_only_and_only_on_an_acoustic_kit ambitions, just an addition.
One will never replace the other, nor are they meant to be compared against
each other.

Sometimes I do miss the good old days of drumming in a band on a cheap 
jap 4-piece drum kit ("Muskateer" brand!) with trashy cymbols after having
had many, many beers, etc.  Oh well, who says I can't do that again some
time ;^)

Todd.

    .re.26 and .27
    	and i have to admit, though i'm having a lot of fun and being
    very creative (for now) at home on my 4-track....(at least, i think
    i'm being creative....and i think i'm having fun...i hope i'm not
    wrong on either of those two points...)the energy level that is
    reached when you're playing with some hot musicians who know their
    stuff and have great virtuosity....(len f., steve k, dave dreher..
    karl moeller...garret marotta, ray pelkey...to mention a few of
    my favorite energizers) is just head and shoulders above any of
    my average studio sessions.
    
    	hhhmmmmmm....well, I guess there's real good strong points
    for both situations.
    	I'm glad I have a little studio and CAN do both....tonight
    at home....tomora at a friends house for a jam....where some
    real neat ideas are birthed and then carefully tucked into my
    pocket (via a cassette that i taped it on, unbeknownst to the
    others) and i take them home and...with the doors locked and the
    shades down and the phone disconnected...and a carefull search
    for any bugs ands and line taps that some enemy agents may have
    placed....i listen to the tape and steal all the good stuff and
    use it for myself.
    
    	thanks to everyone for all the ideas....
    	may they bring me at least a modicum of wealth.
    
    	rik