Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    50's slapback echo on vocals.
    60's cheesy phase on guitars (still heard on Muzak).
         -remember the Mutron?
    70's extra bass drum overdubs, disco flavor.
    76 on - Eventide harmonizers on everything
    80's metronomic drum machines. Simmons fills.
    I agree on the DX7 already being a cliche. No matter WHAT patch,
       I think I recognize it.

    However, I *like* digital reverb. Guess I was tired of flat
    productions. Good idea for a note.
    
    KMII

    re.-1
    
    You missed out the late 60's mellotrons.
    

    How about the Theramin......
    
    Now that was an obscure device!

    Another "electrocliche" is getting to be sampled vocal bits that
    get sliced and diced and rolled together.  Same thing goes for sampled
    violin section sounds which just do a "burst" of sound, like on
    "A View to a Kill" by Duran Duran.
    
    Any thoughts to what might _become_ an electrocliche in the future,
    other than digital reverb (which I also happen to like given that
    I hated spring reverbs and couldn't afford a plate)?
    
    		Derek

    How about the trumpet sounds that sound like their sampled from an
    old T.V. show and are diced and rolled together (I hate ZZtop and
    all that crap).  
    	I like the old mellotron used in the old King Crimson and Genesis 
    stuff.  Anybody want to sell me a midi mellotron?

    	How about cover songs being about 3 minutes in length.  Talk
    about a cliche'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Todd.
    

    I have a patch for my CZ which sounds just like the old mellotron
    string sounds e.g. Moody Blues, King Crimson etc. when put it through a 
    reverb. Let me know if you want me to put it in the CZ patch topic.
    
    As to more cliche's how about extended disco versions with boring
    drum/synth/sample sequences in the middle, beginning and end.
    
    					PAUL. 

<Flame on>
    
    This is more esoteric, but ...
    
    Ever notice the lyrics to every blasted "hit" tune?  If it's not "party
    hearty" or "nuke the ________" (fill in your latest political gripe),
    it's "use me, use me, but don't abuse me".  One would think that
    musicians are a bunch of stoned, left-wing, slavering sexpots. 
    
    Frankly, I'm tired of hearing someone do it on an album.  Isn't there
    anything else to write about?

<Flame off>
    
8^(

    
    re: .3  What is a Theramin?
    
    How about digital delays and chorus on everything?
    
    I also like digital reverbs.  Some of the current most popular effects
    with digital reverb is gated reverb on the snare and reverse reverb.
    A form of reverse reverb is called 'preverb'.  That's when you flip
    the multi-track tape over and record a regular reverb of one track
    that's playing backwards onto another track.  Then you flip the
    tape back over and the recorded reverb is backwards in front of the
    original sound.  Like the beginning of the Car's 'Hello, Again'
    
    Another trick is to fly in backwards parts from a 2-track onto the
    master, like the beginning of Yes's 'Roundabout'.
    
    Compressors and noise gates can be used as gimmicks.  How about weird 
    Eq's like in the middle of Aqualung on Ian Anderson's voice.
    
    I like gimmicks, but tasteful use of them.  Who defines tasteful,
    though?  After all most popular music is recorded to catch the ear of the
    public, not other musicians...
    
    Dave
    

    
    MIDI can be considered an electrogimmick.  They now have MIDI
    controlled light shows.  Imagine a velocity sensitive dimmer pack.
    Now you can MIDI control your household appliances...  ;^)
    
    Dave

    re .8
    
    The Theremin was an electronic instrument designed by Bob Moog
    (yes, the same Moog).  It used capacitive coupling of the performers
    hands to two antennae to control volume and pitch.  One antenna
    was a vertical rod, the other a small plate on the instrument's
    end.   It produced more or less pure sines and because pitch was
    continuous had a generally ethereal sound.
    
    It had brief pop currency during the '60s as the featured instrument
    of Lothar and the Hand People.  Playing it gave new meaning to the
    phrase "waving your hands".
    
    You could get a Theremin kit or an assembled instrument from the
    Melodia Theremin Co. someplace in upstate New York.  They disappeared
    a long time ago.
    
    len.
    

    
    
    
    FLANGING ! Sky Pilot ! Itchykoo Park ! Overdriven Marshall stacks!
    WahWah pedals! Choruses of Black Girls. Leon Russell and Gospel
    backgrounds! Sensitive Singer-Songwriters! ELECTRIC SITARS!
    
    stop me before this gets out of hand!

    re -2, Theremin...
    
    I beg to differ. My impression is that the Theremin has been around
    since the late 1930's or early 1940's. I believe there was an article
    in Keyboard mag within the last couple of years.
    
    If Bob Moog is THAT old, he sure looks good. Or maybe the photo
    I saw was from 1953.
    
    Karl Moeller

    Electric sitars.......Yeeeeeeeaacccchhhhhh....
    I hate their sound incredibly!!!!!!!!!
    
    How about the white noise bursts being used as cymbols.
    Hate 'em with a passion!!!!!
    
    Todd.
    
    

    
    
    
    ... surf in wimpy New Age solo piano tapes ...
    ... wind or nature noises in any music anywhere ...
    
    WAIT A MINUTE! This is hitting too close to home !
    
    Karl and Walter Ego

    re -3, Theremin
    
    I believe you are right.  Theremin may even be the name of the inventor
    (a Soviet), and later 30's sounds right.  As I recall, the soundtrack
    (incidental noise) for "Forbidden Planet" used a Theremin.
    

    RE: .5
    
    You can always call Novatron.  Considering that they still build
    Mellotron clones ( I believe), they might br inclined to go for
    a midi-version.  I have the_old_Mellotron and although I don't use
    it live, I keep it around for sentimental value.  It needs a bit
    of action work, but the tapes are clean.  Anyone know someone (other
    than Aztech Electronics in Cambridge, who I am considering) who
    does Mellotron work?
    
    RE: the topic of the note.  The thing that really bugs me nowadays
    is that same old Fairlight "Bra ap" (space intentional) that was
    started, I think, on Owner of a lonely Heart and has since been
    used by everyone from Doooooooooran Doooooooooooran to ZZ Top.
    
    Oh well, my $.05.
    
   /andy
     

    
    
    RE. the Theramin...
    
         Probably one of the more popular recordings of the use of a
         Theramin was by Jimmy Page in Led Zeppelins 'Whole Lotta Love`.
         All those wierd sounds while Plant sounded like he was having
         an orgasm were done with a theramin.

    OK, OK, I was wrong, forgive me.  I thought Moog invented the Theremin.
    I guess it's older than that.  I don't think it was used in Forbidden
    Planet, as the couple that did the soundtrack used all their own
    instruments.  Nor do I think it was used in Whole Lotta' Love -
    that sounds to me more like Page's guitar than a Theremin. Anybody
    got facts rather than recollections?  I know my memory's full of
    parody errors.
    
    len.
    

See what I mean about people beating something to death?  And now here *I* 
go...

As I recall, the Theremin was invented in the early 1920s by Leo (sometimes 
Leon) Teremin.  When he came to the U.S. from Russia he changed his name to 
Theremin (the Th is pronounced).  As for Bob Moog, he sold theremins while he 
was in college.  I still have an old Radio-Electronics article of his about the 
Moog Theremin, somewhere.

EVERYBODY has heard a theremin.  The best example of where to here one is on 
the Beachboys' "Good Vibrations."  (I may be wrong, but I don't think Forbidden 
Planet used a Theremin.  That was the RCA synthesizer, or trautonium,  or 
something).

I used to build and sell theremins myself.  I can still play one and rather 
well, if I may be so bold.

As for Mr. Theremin, he's back in the USSR.  They don't know how lucky they 
are ;-).

John M.

    re -1:
    
    ... sounds a little fishy to me ...
KM    

    
    Forbidden planet; yes.  Also, nobody's mentioned the Odnes Martinot.
    
    Electronic music was around a lot longer than rock and roll.
    
    							- Karl
    

    
    Re: 12" remixes and dance music
    
    If you've ever mixed 12" dance music you'd understand why those
    "tacky" rhythm breaks are put in the remix. Long intros, outros,
    and timely rhythm breaks are there for the DJ, not the disgruntled
    consumer. Conscious producers are aware of this and structure the
    remix like this:
    
    body of song - rhythm break - repeat chorus - optional rhythm break
    
    This way the DJ has the option of a smooth blend mix at the first
    rhythm break or let the song play to the finish and use a cut or
    fade mix to the next song.
    
    If you don't like the way they sound then buy the album or the 7"
    single. 12" singles are 12" because they're easier to handle than
    7" which are impossible to slip cue. They came into being as a promo
    item for pre-release to club and radio DJ's. Record companies found
    another product to market so they put the 12" remixes in a fancy
    cover and charge you $4.99.
    
    Chris
    
    
    
    

RE: Theremin, Martinot

The theremin and martinot may lend themselves to cliche, but they do not 
qualify as electrogimicks. 

Hey!  If the theremin is 60 years old this year, shouldn't we have a party?  We 
could hold it in the Soviet Union (but NOT in Kiev) and play old Clara Rockmore 
records.  Heck, I'll even fix my theremin and play "The Birthday Song!"

When oh when is somebody going to build a synthesizer again without one of 
those crappy digital noise sources?!  I know that the digital ones are 
preferred for several reasons:

(A)   They have a uniform output amplitude

(B)   You don't have to sort through zeners or transistors to find out which 
      ones avalanche best when back-biased

(C)   It is not easy to tell a computer to be random

But let's remember that an analog noise source is truly random and costs only 
about $1.50 to build.  Surely there must be a way to incorporate one into a 
digital setup.

The ear-brain is not stupid and is not fooled by "pseudo random" sequences.  
One need only listen to the DX7's, Prophet 5000's, or any other synthesizer's 
digital noise source for half a second to realize that it is not random.  It's 
not surprising that wind, explosions, and such sounds made on these machines 
are so hoaky.  And forget about sampling.  Once you sample an event it 
is no longer random.  The Kurzweil costs $14,000 and it's "ocean" effect is a 
joke.  And all for the want of a $1.50 noise source!  Good grief.  

John M.

Yes, but over in England the 12" has become a different breed altogether.  It
is the place where the artist is MOST LIKELY to experiment, whereas in America
it generally represents the artist at their most conservative.  British 12"
singles usually contain at least three tracks, the third of which is not found
on the 7" and quite often is jazz-flavoured or folkish (and rarely winds up on
the U.S. release).  I find 12" mixes almost invariably superior to 7" mixes
within the so-called "new-wave" genre.  Unfortunately, Newbury Comics now
charges $6.99 for 12" EP's and $12.99 for LP's!


				Mark

    My goodness, three conversations going on in parallel.  What was
    the base note about?
    
    I looked up Theremin last night too.  Yes, It was Leon Theremin
    who invented the Theremin in Russia in 1926 (if I compute from Tom's
    anniversary correctly - I thought I saw 1935, but we all know how
    broken my sensoria are at this point).  And I found my Lothar and
    the Hand People record, but I couldn't bring myself to listen to
    it.  I checked out Whole Lotta Love, and there are credits given
    for all kinds of instruments, but no Theremin.
    
    My Super Jupiter makes pretty good noise.  Its thunder, surf and
    wind are excellent.  The MKS-80 is analog all the way, though.
    
    And I have, in moments of reckless self indulgence (actually on
    somebody else's behalf, at their request) made tapes of NOTHING
    BUT surf and wind and thunder, multitracked even.

    len.
    

    re: .29
    	Are your wind/surf/thunder compositions 3 minutes in length.
    If so, they could be the next number one hit single! :-)
    
    TR
    

    Nah, they go on interminably.  I wouldn't dignify this stuff with
    the label "composition".  How about "sound effects"?
    
    This sort of stuff HAS been sold, you know.  Remember those environment
    records?  "Dawn At New Hope Pennsylvania"?  Etc.?
    
    len.
    

    
    	Len, why is it not 'composition'?
    
    					Karl1

    Hmm, good question.  'Cause I didn't write it down?  'Cause I didn't
    think (much) about it beforehand?  'Cause it's not "music"?  'Cause
    it wasn't meant for somebody else to perform?  'Cause it has no
    apparent structure?  'Cause it has no rhythmic sophistication?
    'Cause it has no harmonic sophistication?  'Cause it's basically
    just noise?  'Cause names are just names and things are what they
    are regardless of what you choose to call them?  I don't know.
    
    len.
    

    
    	Gee, I could have bought a Theremin at the Hosstraders fleamarket.
    It was a *kustom*, ran on batteries, and was in good shape (the
    nice padded case) but was missing the front panel. For $10.
    
    	So I blew it, but we can design one, al la DEC. Lets see...we'll
    use a radar or lidar to measure the picosecond roundtrip time from
    the device to your hand...Of course, a digital output will be fed
    into a PRO 350, which will look up in a table which note to send
    out the midi adaptor WRT how far your hand is away from the thing.
    Just think, you can assign any note to any distance and quantize
    the thing - no more of that annoying "relative pitch drifting"...
    
    	I always thought that the "telephone sound" that Paul McCartny
    (sp?) used to use on his voice "were so sorry...uncle Albert" was
    a true cliche' - and a trademark at that. This was mentioned in
    -.8 al la Jethro Tull.
    
    	I think the true cliche' nowadays is that you have to be a
    soprano to be a lead singer - you know, sound like you're 13 yrs
    old and all. I guess all the little girls have to be able to sing
    along in their natural ranges for a group to be popular. Another
    is to show off all the MEGABUCKS your group has spent on your
    equipment. Hey! We've got all the latest! Don't know what to do
    with it yet, but we *look* good. 
    
    						Joe Jas

    Re: .34
    
    Joe hit the nose right on the head about groups showing how much
    money they have (or how much overhead they have on tour from renting)
    by having umpteen-million pieces of techno-rubble on stage.  Nothing
    gets me angrier than watching some bozo who couldn't play his/her
    way out of a paper bag on stage with $100,000 of Fairlights, TX816s,
    etc. that get wasted.
    
    Let's hear it for musicians who are working on mastering the technology
    to make MUSIC rather than showing how many $$$ they have available
    for toys!
    
    		Derek (wishing I HAD the money for all the toys and
    		       souding like sour grapes :->)

    Ok.  I've thought it over, and have finally determined the cliche' that
    *absolutely* puts me over the edge.  I'm sure I'm not alone on this
    one...
    	Don't you just hate watching videos on TV where the "musicians"
    merely play along with their studio recordings????????  I *hate*
    that!!!!  There is nothing worse than listening to as obvous studio
    recording while the video part shows the band on stage in an arena
    holding 10,000 people.  And worse than that, the drummer is visually
    banging his snare drum 180 degrees out of sync with music!
    	Most of these videos look about as "real" as Championship Wrestling.
    
    Don't ya just *hate* it???
    
    Todd.
    

    ...Elvis Presley on the beach with an electric guitar, and no AC
    for 20 miles!! With a full string section backing him up!
    
    Aaarrgghhh!!!!
    
    Edd

    Now that you're all totally sick of hearing about the Theramin...
    
    You can actually see Jimmy Page playing (?) one in the movie "The
    song remains the same".  Go rent the video.
    
    

    I just heard the latest from "Steel Eye Span" (remember them? English
    and Irish folksongs their specialty).  It had all of the typical '80's 
    cliches--robot drum with that sound that sounds like someone hitting a
    garbage can lid, lots of digital delay, and, of course, tons of that 
    gawdawful frozen-sounding DX7.
    
    I think I'm going to puke. 
    
    John M.

    
    	Some people like mechanical cliches and other people like
    electronic cliches.  Just a matter of taste.
    
    						- km1

    How about NO cliches?
    
    
    
    BTW Paul Simon's new "You Can Call Me AL" has some very nice digital
    work going on in it.
    
    
    John M.