Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Could we get you to do a review of the MIDIverb, Dennis?  I feel
    a little guilty about asking given my compulsive behaviour with
    respect to the SRV-2000, but from what I've seen the MIDIverb is
    a neat little machine and you can't beat the price; I'm sure even
    a once over lightly would be appreciated.
    
    len.
     

    I have 3 questions:
    
    	1.  Where did you find it for ~$300?  Wurlitzer's in Framingham
    	    wants $395.
    
    	2.  I know it is no SRV-2000, but how does it sound with respect
    	    to the XT?

        3.  How are the 64 presets arranged (ie, How many are long reverb,
    	    how many are pre-delay, how many reverse reverb, etc.)
    
    It sounds like a great box especially for the money.  Oh yea, the
    guy at Wurlitzer said that if you change to a new reverb setting on
    the fly, the previous reverb sound already "bouncing around" in
    the box does not get truncated!  Sounds incredible...
    
    
    Todd.
    

    
    Sure. I'll do it tomorrow.
    
    Dennis

    I've had my MIDIVERB for about a week now it cost me 390 pounds
    over here. I can confirm 3 things about it. 
    
    1) It's made my recordings about 64 times more interesting even 
    without the capability of sequence programming. 2) I don't think 
    I'll ever get to use more than 50% of the available programs.  
    3) I understand it (I think).
    
    Simplicity rules Ok?
    
    				PK.
    
    

Re: .2 (not to steal anyone's thunder)
    
    1. List on the MIDIverb is $399.  25% off is right around $300.  You
    should be able to get that kind of discount. 

    2. I'll let Dennis answer that one.
    
    3. Briefly, presets run as follows:
    
       Presets 1-50 range from .2 to 20 secs delay.  The smaller delay
       values are broken down (usually into groups of 3) by room size
       {small, medium, large, X large} and verb color {bright, warm, dark}.
       
		1.  .2 Sec	SMALL	   BRIGHT
		2.  .2 Sec	SMALL	   WARM
		3.  .2 Sec	MEDIUM	   BRIGHT
 		50. 20 Sec	EX. LARGE  DARK
       
       Presets 51-59 are gated verb (100,150,200,250,300,350,400,500,600)
       by uSec.
       
       Presets 60-64 are reverse verb (300,400,500,600) by uSec.
       
    May Keyboard (pg 77) has an ad with a real decent picture of the unit.
    
    Now, here's my question - Is the thing quiet?  How does it compare
    (noisewise) to the SPX-90 or the REV7?  And, what other units did
    you check out before nabbing the MIDIverb?
    
8^) 

    
    re.5 Is the thing quiet
    
    Again not wanting to steel anyone's thunder. I had a listen and
    played a little with an SPX90 before I bought my MIDIVERB and can
    only say that I never found noise to be a problem with either.
    
    This could be a comment on poor ears, poor technique, or just gear
    which doesn't really test either device. I record into a tascam
    244  and I just don'e hear any noise from either at normal recording
    levels.
    
    As to the REV 7 I have heard one and seen one in use but the price
    stopped me from getting to interested. There is however one review
    in a U.K. publication which say's that the MIDIVERB sounds better
    than any reverb the reviewer has heard to date. Surely the quality
    of reverb and how good it sounds is a subjective thing anyway and
    is a pretty hard thing to quantify.
    
    Anyway to my ears, which are probably affected by the buck(pound) for
    performance  effect, it sounds great.
    
    					PK.
    

    Well it looks as though this thing is pretty well commented by this
    point. I can affirm that there is no discernable noise added to
    the signal weather it's used in line or via a buss send/return.
    The number of presets and the variance of sounds they represent
    is far more than adequate for covering just about everything you
    would want to do. There is more than enough variance, really. The
    audio quality of the unit is superb. In my experience it is audibly
    surpassed only by the high end Lexicon units. Of course the
    Klark-Tecknic (spelling ?) units are better still but that's a whole
    new ball game. It's interesting to note that if you set the program
    number to any range from 65 to 128 the reverb is defeated. The unit
    does continue a sound to the end of the reverb "cycle" if you change
    to another preset in mid-stream. They are saying in the little blurb
    that comes in the box that they are doing three million "computer
    accesses" a second (whatever that means) with a proprietary RISC
    processor and that this box "heralds a new era in Reverb/Signal
    processing". As to price I paid $319.50 from Manny's in New York.
    That includes an extra 3% because I used American Express. In the
    final analysis I think it's easily the best sound for money value
    by far in digital reverb. Weather or not it sounds better than an
    SPX-90 or REV-7 or SRV-2000 is purely subjective but I do know you
    won't be able to tell any difference in your final mix - and if
    you can you probably need the a Lexicon unit. 
                                   
    Dennis Savage
    

    
    Does it have mono in, stereo out ?
    
    MUST it be controlled via MIDI? I have a very low-tech studio and
    wonder....
    
    Karl Moeller

    Sorry to have overlooked that. Stereo in and stereo out. You can
    contol it from the front panel. The wet/dry mix is on the back.
    
    Dennis

    I just called Manny's.  They said that they want $350.  Any suggestions?
    
    I called one other dealer in NY (sam ash), and they won't sell the
    midiverb mail order (as per manufacturer's request).
    
    Todd.
    

ve to     
    Maybe they are getting pressure from Alesis. It's a drag to has
   (has?") to pay more than $320 but even at $350 it's a good deal.
    Really. 
    
    I never noticed just how poor a VT emulator this IBM thing I have
    at home is.
    
    Dennis Savagde (#$^&@@^)

    Dennis:
    	How long ago did you order it?  Maybe if I called them and convinced
    them that I was quoted a price of $320 at about the time that you
    ordered it, they would give me that price.
    
    Todd.
    

    I ordered it on April 4th and it was $310. I had to pay 3% extra
    for using AMEX and it then came to $319.30. The shipping via UPS
    was COD for $5.05.
    
    Dennis

    I called them on the 23rd, and they assured me that the price has
    been $350 for quite some time.  I explained to them that you had
    purchased one for $310 on April 4th - they explained that they had
    been selling it for the wrong price and weren't making any profit
    selling it for $310.  It took some smooth talking to get it for
    $325.  ;-)
    
    ...I will post my opinion after I recieve it in the mail and use it
    a couple of times.
    
    Todd
    
    
    

    Well at least you talked the back a little, eh? 
    
    I hope you'll be pleased. I think you will.
    
    Dennis

    Well, my midiverb arrived yesterday and I must say that I am very
    impressed.  Better than I expected for the price.  What I found
    to be most impressive is that the patch with the 20-second decay
    was not the least bit "grainy".  I have played with the XT (:c?)
    and was unimpressed with the grainy sound when the SIZE button was
    depressed for simulating large rooms.  The midiverb suffers no such
    delemma!
    	I can't wait to find some time to do some recording with this thing.
    As many of you will hear, my home recordings to date cry for some
    ambience.  The midiverb is just what the doctor ordered (it does
    an incredible job improving the flat sound of my SDS-8's).
    
    
    Not-the-least-bit-dissapointed,
    
    Todd
    

    My only problem is that I got mine in the mail yesterday and I have
    a take home exam due tomorrow.  :-(
    
    Todd
    

    Mine is now 4 weeks old and is like a really old friend. How did
    I live without it?  I guess anybody who has never used digital
    reverb before who has now got one must feel the same way.
                                                        
    Re .-1 and .-2 how are you sequencing them? How are you finding
    patch changing in the middle of songs?
    
    Unfortunately over the weekend the old Tascam 144 decided to start
    eating tapes and generally doing nasty things and all work has come
    to a halt. Anybody ever had problems with 144 tape transports.
    
    Should I bother getting it repaired.
        
    				PK.
    
    
    

    RE: .-1
    	Since this is my only MIDI piece of equipment, I haven't had
    experience with sequencing and patch changing.  My studio consists
    of Simmons SDS-8 drums (pre-midi), Arp Avatar guitar synth, Analog
    delay (DOD rackmount), and various effects, mixers, and R-R decks.
    Sometime in the near future, I will be looking to get an affordable
    midi synth and a midi interface and software for my C-64 computer.

    	As far as getting along without digital reverb, all I can say
    is that I have suffered till now.  I have no regrets in purchasing
    a midiverb before getting a MIDI synth - it is amazing what a digital
    reverb can do for the sound of guitar or voice or other non-MIDI
    instruments.
    
    I guess what I'm saying is that I've had mine for only a day and can't
    see how I've lived without it...
    
    Todd
    

    Hey Todd - you interested in MIDIfying your SDS-8?  I've got a
    JLCooper DrumSlave that will convert the pad outputs to MIDI
    commands compatible with most MIDI drum machines.  You can also
    record drum part sfrom the pads into a sequencer.  unfortunately
    it doesn't work the other way - it won't drive the Simmons brain
    from MIDI inputs.  I don't need it anymore as I'm replacing my
    SDS-8 with a Roland DDR-30 and I have an Octapad for a MIDI controller.
    If you (or anybody else)'re interested send me mail.

    len.
    

    I tried 3 times to reply to this note w/o success.  Blah...  should
    have created it outside of NOTES and sent it.  It seems that if
    NOVA goes off the network, the reply in progress gets vaporized.
    
    Anyways,  RE .-1
    	I looked into the DrumSlave and was interested in purchasing one
    plus a TR-505 and driving the TR-505 from the Simmons pads, however...
    I am low on money, and feel that a good polyphonic synth is more
    advantageous to my studio at the present time.  It'll probably end
    up being a CZ-101 or DX-100 and will be purchased sometime during
    the summer.
    	Meanwhile, I'm going nuts trying to get a good snare sound
    out of the SDS-8's, and am going crazy recording 'real' cymbols
    with a cheap mic and no compressor.  Both of these problems would
    be somewhat reduced with the addition of the TR-505/DrumSlave combo,
    but again, I think a poly synth is more necessary.
    	Someone needs to come out with a box called "midicymbols" (like
    midibass) that has 20 or so samples of different kinds of cymbols
    (lots of rides and crashes, splashes, swishes, gongs, etc...). 
    I'm sure it would be expensive though as a high sampling rate would
    be needed for the HF overtones, and lots of memory would be needed
    to handle the long decay time.
    	Len, - Do you have any good "patches" for a snare on the SDS-8's?
             - Does the DDR-30 have any cymbol patches?
    
    Todd "maybe_some_day_I'll_have_a_sampling_synth_to_solve_all_my_
    	  problems" Rhodes
   

    I do not like the Simmons snare sound.  When I was using my SDS-8s
    at gigs, I used only the bass and toms, and used an acoustic snare.
    Sometimes I would use the Simmons snare to "fatten up" the acoustic
    snare, by triggering the Simmons snare channel with a cheap ($3)
    Radio Shack mic; I'd mount the mic on the snare, about 1/2" from
    the head so it would only trigger when I hit the snare.  I eventually
    gave this up, as the Simmons sound was just too different from a
    real snare to mix well with it.  I don't recall the control settings
    I used, but I think you're just having the same experience I did.
    
    There are no cymbals in a DDR-30.  Cymbals are a real problem for
    synthesized drums just now.  I've loosely spec'ed a DDR-30 full
    of cymbal rather than drum sounds - same idea as your "midicymbals".
    Biggest problem is good sounding cymbals take up a lot of storage;
    they have a lot of high frequency energy and they sustain longer
    than most people realize.  A ride cymbal will ring for MINUTES after
    it has been struck.  Practical cymbal samples require about 4 seconds
    of sample time at at least 16KHz bandwidth.  Another problem is
    that cymbal envelopes don't reset everytime you hit them; they add
    to what's already happening.  Adding all the envelopes together would
    require algorithms and storage to handle (4 seconds) * (180
    beats/minute)/(60 seconds/minute) * (2 hits/beat) = 24 hits stacked
    up within the decay time for a representative ride beat.  Your 20
    samples would require (32 KHz sampling rate) * (4 seconds) * (1.5
    byte/sample) ( = 192Kbytes/sample) * (20 samples) = > 3.8 Mbyte,
    without considering the retriggering issue.  24 adds in each sample
    conversion time plus 192Kytes per sample adds up to a pretty fancy
    machine.  Yes, it will come, but not this year.
    
    You (or anybody else for that matter) can have my DrumSlave for
    $200.  It's in mint condition, but of no use to me now with the
    technology I have available to me.  It cost me $600 and the dealer
    won't take it back because I special ordered it and there's not
    a whole lot of demand for it.
    
    I've been burned by losing the net connection while replying.  Trying
    to REPLY/LAST doesn't work because VAXNotes for some reason tries
    the net connection first, and failing to find it won't let you at
    the buffer.  Very obnoxious.
    
    len.
    

Re: REPLY/LAST
    
    If that won't work, you can save yourself a bunch of keystrokes by the
    following ... 
    
	EVE BUFFER NOTES$EDIT
	GOLD 7 (or DO)
	WRITE FILE FOO.TXT		(your text is saved in foo.txt)

    Then do what you've gotta do to get back into NOVA::.  Works for me
    every time. 

8^)

    Good idea, Brad.  I'll do that for every reply from now on (including
    this one).
    
    While were on the subject of the original note, ;-), I have a question
    on the TR505.  After playing with it at Wurlitzers (Framingham)
    and disliking the programmable volume controls vs. the sliders on
    the TR707, I later realized how much of a benefit this feature could
    be. It could make for a rather versatile way of accenting rather than using
    the accent button.  Does the TR505 have the capability to "record"
    different volume settings in step mode (and generate the appropriate
    midi info), or are the volume parameters only considered for playback?
    
    Todd
    

    I'll have to experiment, but I suspect that, like the MIDI channel
    and key number mapping, volume is a table entry that is referenced
    by the pattern generator.  That is, there is no way to program a
    volume change (other than using accent/no accent.)
    
    John

    
    ..back to the original topic for a minute...
    
    Sounds like the patches can be changed on the fly via MIDI commands.
    
    Is the DRY to WET signal passthru variable via MIDI commands as
    well ?
    
    KM

    Don't think Dry/Wet is controllable, however the smallest room setting
    is for all practical purposes "Dry".
    
    TR
    

    Looked into the question of -.2 further.  According to the manual,
    sending midi values of 0-63 will choose the corresponding reverb
    preset.  Values of 64-128 *will* put the midiverb in dry (defeat) mode.
    
    Todd
    
    

    RE .26 on the TR505
    
    I've got one and I think it's great.  However unfortunately, the
    volume settings are global.  You set 'em and forget 'em.  If you
    want different volume settings for different patterns or tracks,
    you have to make the changes manually.
    
    Re controlling the TR505 from drum pads:  It quantizes your velocity
    info coming in into one of five discrete levels.  What the levels
    are exactly is in the manual.  If anyone's interested let me know.
    
    						-Jeff
    

    I have some question on the MIDIverb:
    
    1) OK, it has stereo outputs AND inputs.  But just how "stereo"
       is it.   If I send a strong signal to the left input, what do
       I get out of the right input?
    
       I.E.  how discreet is the stereo?   I don't need a 100% discreet
       stereo reverb, but I do want something that won't just mix my
       stereo inputs together, and I also would prefer something that
       won't send a noticeable echo of my snare drum to the left output
       if my snare drum is panned all the way right.
    
       I suspect that what most of the lower end reverbs with stereo
       inputs do is copy the direct inputs exactly to the stereo outputs
       but that the reverb signal is actually produced from a mix of
       of BOTH inputs, and THEN some sort of stereo simulation is done.
    
    
          L input >--------+----+
			   |    |    reverb w.	     R >------+
			   |    o>-->simulated                |
			   |    |    stereo outputs  L >----+ |
          R input >-----+--^----+                           | |
			|  |                                | |
			|  |                                | |
			|  |                                | |
                        |  +----------->o<------------------+ |
			|	        |                     |
			|--------------(|)----o---------------+
    					|     |
					|     |
					v     v
    
    					R     L
				       out   out


    2) Does the MIDIverb do effects other than reverb?
    
    3) What kind of control features does it have for live performance?
       (footpedals?  Bypass switch, remote program change (MIDI/Footpedal,
    	etc.)
    
    4) What is currently considered to be a "good" price?
    
    5) Recommendations for places to get it?

    
    	According to Union (Onion ?) Music in Worcester, "There aren't
    any of 'em left".   It is superceded by the Midiverb II, $399 list,
    and they're not discounting them.   Someone told me that the settings
    have to be stepped through, i.e. can't be selected directly from
    the front panel, you have to count up/down from the one you're at
    to the one you want.  I can't vouch for this, since I've never actually
    used one.
    
    	Anyway, its likely that a Midiverb (I) would be cheap if you
    could find one, now that the II is out.
    
    	Reg
    
    	(...and a year ago KM II was asking about front panel control
    because he only had a low tech studio, see early replies)
    

	Wurlitzer gave the lowest over-the-phone price on the Midiverb II
for the stores I called in the area.  $375, if I remember right.  The proverb
can be bought for $325 from them (best quote) and the Micro-verb got the
best price of somewhere around $220.  You can do much better from Mail.

	On the used market, I think $299 for the MIDIVERB I was the lowest I 
saw.  But I don't think I'd give more than $250 for it in light of its 
competition and its not-so-glorious reputation (RF noise).

	Dan

    
    see note on dealers...
    
    and, probably right on the mix trick.....the only reverb that I know
    of that does TWO DIFFERENT REVERB PROGRAMS AT ONCE, on separate
    signals if you want, is the SDR-1000 (no, not SRV...)
    
    The term stereo is to ambiguous when used with reverbs...
    

    re: .RON

    Well, I'm not really looking for something that does two different
    reverb programs at once.  What I want is something that does the
    same program on both channels with a minimum of crosstalk.

    I'd really love to know the answer to my question about the
    "discreetness" of the channels.   I'm somewhat surprised that this
    hasn't been asked before.   Make we nervous to think that my
    expectation of how it would be used might be different from how
    other people are currently doing things.

    I'm beginning to think that the ART Proverb is the right choice
    for me assuming that it sounds good and is quiet.

    	db

RE: ART PROverb

    Dave - in my opinion, the presets on the PROverb are pretty lame.
    The MIDIverb II beats it hands down.  To boot, the Alesis unit has
    better frequency response and is not as noisy as the PROverb.

    PROfound Sound (again) is selling the MIDIverb II at $335.  That's
    the best price I've seen.  1-800-63-SOUND.  Ask for Shane, use my
    name.

8^)_whose_real_name_is_brad

    re: .37
    
    Thanks brad.
    
    I also just discovered that the ART can only step through program
    numbers, whereas the MIDIverb II has a more convenient way of accessing
    a particular program (numeric keypad???).
    
    Also, I thought only the Proverb had standard DDL effects in addition
    to the reverb effects.  Apparently, the MIDIverb does all the standard
    DDL effects also.
    
    So I am now leaning to the MIDIverb.  Stay tuned for hourly updates.
    
    	db

    Dave (et al) -
    
    	I'd be willing to sell my MIDIverb I for a fair price.  Or,
    did you have your heart sent on the MIDIverb II?
    
    							- km_1

    Actually, in a complete turnaround, I've decided to get the SRV-2000
    (hopefully, Sam Ash still has some left).
    
    I've just heard TOO many accolades for both the unit, and the price.
    
    	db

 RE.39    Karl, 
    
               What would you call a "fair price" for your MIDIVERB I?
    
    
    
    Mike D
    

    re. ? : true stereo
    
    In my previous quest for a reverb, I tryed just what you suggested:
    panning hard left on a midiverb has no affect on the output panorama.
    A magazine review, electronic musician perhaps, also confirmed that the
    inputs are just mixed to mono. 
                                                                  
    I doubt that there are any discrete two channel units out there
    under $2k.

This is confirmed on the MIDIVERB.  The reverb field is pseudo stereo. 

Then again, unless you're recording a sound using multiple mics, you're 
probably in the "pseudo stereo" domain anyways...

The MIDIVERB does allow the stereo input signal to be retained in the dry 
part of the output signal...

Todd.

	I can't remember where I heard this (notes or elsewhere...) but would
someone please confirm or deny the fact that the MIDIVERB (both versions) delays
are single-tap only (i.e., no feedback)?

	Dan

    
    umm, there isn't a "feedback" pot on the MVII but different settings
    have different multitap values. 
    
    /pjh

    Well, there's a bunch of single-tap delays that vary on the MV2
    up to about .5 sec.  Then, there are some multitaps and echos that
    aren't as flexible.  No specs in front of me ...
    
    Steve

    FYI- The new list price for the MIDIVerb II is $269.00. I bought
    one at Union Music last night. 
    
    They also had a ton of MicroVerbs available for $170. Is that a
    happy deal?
    
    Edd

    
    Re: .47
    
    Sounds like MIDIVERB III is on the way ????
                                           
    

    Microverbs were going for $150 at Pianos 'N Stuff.  (Blawnox, PA).
    
    $170 ain't so bad.
    
    Steph
    

    at this date, Midiverb II goes for $239
    at Rogue Music, N.Y.C........Rich
    

    If you shop around, you can get one mail order for around $200. I got
    mine around 5 mos. ago for $210 or $225 (don't remember which). 

    As for price posting, there's a note dedicated to best prices - a
    bulletin board type thing that Dave (DREGS::) Blickstein used to
    maintain.  Send mail to him, or if he's not doing it, I guess I'll try
    and find time to get at it someday. 

-b

DEMCS Price Bulletin Board  --  Note 1523.1

Prices have been decreasing since last summer. I will volunteer to
update this note if db is not available.

dave

    I have been available to update the board, but no one has sent me
    any price quotes in months.
    
    	db

    Make sure you use the new topic up front for the postings, ok db?

-b

I restored 1523.1 to 9.2. Please update but do not delete.

dave