Conference napalm::commusic_v1

I'm afraid my experience is limited to rack-mount machines, but I'll
pass on what I've got.  I find little use for effects units of any
kind.  My DX7 does most of what I want inside the synthesizer.  The
one exception is room reverberation, for which I have a rack-mount
unit, the Roland SRV-2000.  It is limited to one effect at a time,
but I don't find that a burden.

My mixer has no built-in functions--I route sound through the SRV-2000
if I want effects.  Again I don't find this a problem.

The SRV-2000 takes only phono plugs, but Daddy's has lots of cables,
so that isn't a problem for me either.

I have never used an effects unit on stage, but I did take the SRV-2000
with me when I gave demonstrations to a class.  Setting up the SRV-2000
a very small part of setting up the whole system, which included an
Apple II, multi-track tape unit, DX7, two TX7s, a pen plotter, etc, etc.
    John Sauter

Foot pedals are generally not very clean but they are much cheaper. I 
have used both pedals and rack mount type effects and I believe that the 
rack mount is your best choice. Foot pedals usually have a lower dynamic 
range available as the voltage is limited to the battery voltage, 
generally 9v. Rack pedals usually use + & - 9 to 12v and this gives you 
a higher available voltage swing for the signal. Stronger outputs, less 
noise and increased functionality.

Noise gates are essentially squelch controls. They shut of the output if 
the signal level is not high enough "gateing" the noise off when the 
instrument is not being played. If you play guitar and use alot of 
distortion which is very noisy then a noise gate wil allow you to cut 
the noise when you are not playing, When you play all of the noise will 
be sent along with the signal which generally will mask out the noise. 
So if you have a noisy instrument then a noise gate will help keep the 
noise down when the instrument is not being played. DBX helps keep noise 
from the tape deck and hiss from the tape down. It does not reduce any 
noise present in the original signal. If your tape deck is a tascam 234 
there is a very good explanation of dbx included in the owners manual.

A major drawback to noise gates is that they will cut off your signal 
when it drops below a certain level, for example when a guitarist uses 
his volume knob to get that "violin" sound by turning the volume up 
after the note has been picked he can't use a noise gate because it will 
switch the signal on at a certain level. So if you vary your volume alot 
while playing to get dynamics etc. then a noise gate may interfere with 
your playing by cutting in and out. i think they are mostly intended for 
guitarists that use alot of effects (effects=noise) or that play 
guitars with single coil pickups (very noisy, strats, teles etc). I 
can't see any practical use for them with a keyboard.

good tunes 

dave

	REPLYING TO THE QUESTION OBOUT MIXERS......IN MOST CASES, I HAVE FOUND
	THAT THE MORE ESOTERIC MIXING DESKS HAVE MANY, REPETITIVE PATCH POINTS,
	DESIGNED TO GIVE YOU FLEXIBILITY OF USE. THEREFORE, THE MIXERS DON'T
	HAVE ROOM IN THE CIRCUITRY FOR EFFECTS, ETC. HOWEVER, "ON-BOARD"
	(NO PUN INTENDED) PARAMETRIC EQ., ETC. IS A BLESSING, SINCE MOST FOLKS
	DON'T HAVE THE $$$ FOR EXCEPTIONAL "OUTBOARD" UNITS. BUYING ANYTHING 
	LESS THAN HIGHEST QUALITY OUT BOARD UNITS IS SILLY, BECAUSE YOU DON'T
	GET THE FUNCTIONALITY, IN THE LONG RUN.

	SPEAKING OF FUNCTIONALITY, I HAVE JUST PREVIEWED A PCM-70 DIGITAL
	DELAY (DELTA LAB). HOLY S__T, BATMAN, THIS THING'S INCREDIBLE!!!

	DON'T LOOK AT THIS UNIT AS "JUST ANOTHER DELAY"- IT'S AN AWFUL LOT
	MORE THAN THAT! AT APPROX. $2250.00 LIST, THIS MAY BE OUT OF YOUR 
	PRICE RANGE, BUT IF IT'S NOT, FIND ONE! WITHOUT A DOUBT, ONE OF THE 
	BEST BUYS YOU COULD EVER MAKE FOR YOUR STUDIO.

re: .3--I meant that I don't find the need for effects with a DX7, because
it can do so much inside the box.  The one exception is room acoustics.
I don't know of any way to send audio signals to a DX7.
    John Sauter

Most of my effects are rack mounted and I'm very happy with them.  I have
one pedal chorus, and I wish it was rack mounted, but that's mostly because
I'm not a guitar player and the way my studio's organized things at eye
level are easier to use.

The only effects  I use on keyboards are chorus and reverb.  Both dramatically
fatten up the sound.

I am now convinced that a good reverb (not a spring thing) is absolutely
necessary to get a realistic sound out of a drum machine.  I've got a
Roland SRV-2000 and it's pricey but to call it a toy or just another effect
to buy seriously understates its usefullness.

I'd rather pay for more sends and returns in a mixer than for built in
effects.  That way I can choose my own effects.  My experience with mixer-
provided echo or reverb is that the effects are cheap and sound it.

len.

I don't know whether this reply comes to late to factor into your decision,
Mark, but there are some nice pieces of equipment on the market which 
combine foot pedal functionality with the (I believe) superior signal-to-
noise ratio of the rack mounts.  

I recently bought a Roland SDE-1000 digital delay for my guitar set up
and realized almost immediately that I had a problem: while the 1000
has a foot switch to allow changing pre-sets, the modulation rate and
depth were global.  Thus, if I used the delay for an admittedly gorgeous
chorus effect, I had to manually change the modulation settings when
going to a longer delay setting.

So it was back to the store, this time for the SDE-3000.  Not only does it
have a longer maximum delay, but the modulation rate and depth are part
of the pre-set.  Plus, instead of four pre-sets, it has eight AND all
the parameter values are shown in LED display.  What a joy it is on a 
gig!!  The foot switch only goes one way (i.e. setting 1 ---> 2 ---> 3 etc,
back to 1), but, since I rarely use more than four different pre-sets
in a set of music, I can pre-set those four in the eight different 
positions in the order of the tunes we'll be playing in the set.  The
result is that, after one tune, all I do his hit the foot switch once and
I'm ready for the next tune.

And the digital read-out of the parameters (in nice, big, green numbers)
is great!  All in all, well worth the investment.  I know also that 
Roland has come out with a new series of half-rack mountables (compressor,
choruser, etc.) which take up one vertical rack space but only one half
a space horizontally.  I almost bought one, but, just before forking over
the cash, I noticed there was *no* paperwork - no warranty, directions. . .
nothin'.  They (P.U. Whirlwhizzer) told me, "That's the way Roland is 
sending them."  I told P.U., "Good-bye".

Hope my ramblings are of some use.

Steve

re .7 - you shouldn't hold Roland's marketing decisions against Wurlitzer - 
it's not that unusual these days for "cheaper" toys to come with no
explicit warranty - if it breaks, bring it back to the dealer, and they'll
replace it.  My TR707 came with no warranty card.  Besides, these things
almost never fail unless you really abuse them.  I'm surprosed there are no
instructions, Roland's usually pretty good about documentation.  Besides
all you'll get is something that tells you that the X knob controls the
amount of X.  I think you ended up shortchanghin yourselk over a triviality.

len.

My experience is that Roland is very good about instructions and
paperwork.  If it doesn't have them it may be a ripoff of some kind.
    John Sauter

I just got an MPU-104 and MPU-105 (MIDI input and output switches) from
Roland.  They are part of the BOSS series of half width rack mount stuff
that .7 talks about.  They came in sealed boxes (i.e., no ripoff possible)
with no warranty registration (as I noted in .8, warranty registration is
increasingly rare - even my Tascam 38's return card was only to get you on
their mailing list) and a very brief instruction sheet.

len.

You could be right, Len, about letting a triviality sidetrack me.  When 
I was in the F'ham store, the salesman called Boston and they also said
that there was no paperwork in the boxes.  I decided to put a "hold" on
the purchase and see if later shipments include the paperwork.  I own
several other pieces of Roland equipment and they all came with instructions
and warranties.  I also work for a manufacturing group and can easily 
understand how products sometimes can go out the door without everything
being in the box. . .not that my group has *ever* done anything like
that. . . :-)

Steve

Well, to revisit this topic almost 4 years later...

I want to play around with my sampler and guitar sounds at home.  I would like
to be able to afford an ART SGE or Roland GS-6 or GP-8 or any hi-fidelity
and the like rack mount FX (to augment my lone MultiVerb) but right now I
have a hard time affording a cable :-(.  Anyway, for purely home /experimental
use I've decided to swing an el-cheapo guitar pedal or two.  Later, if I get
good results and I get a real *big* payraise, I may be able to afford a good 
box.  I realize there is less dynamic range, more noise, etc. inherint in
pedals (especially the cheapo ones) but for home use (maybe, just maybe a 
commusic tape if I ever get anything worth it -- but hen I'll probably visit
someone to make the actual recording anyway) I am not worried about such things
due to my limited means now.

The real question is more technical:  Is there anything like impedence and
other types of mis-matches between what my M-160 sends/returns expect and/or
what a typical unbalanced out from a SGU gives and what the pedal expect?  In
other words, am I looking at technical reasons why it isn't such a good idea?

Also, for a non-guitarist, please give good descriptions of the following
(and more specifically, the differences between them):

distortion
overdrive

I kind of know them but a good description would be welcome.

Thanks

chad

    Chad, one prob I think you'll have is a level (voltage) mismatch...
    most modern SGU's put out LINE level (.776 volts=0DB ?) while most
    floor pedals expect MIC level (.06 volts [[?]]).  This is a 10-to-1
    level mismatch.
    
    What you need is an attenuator cord.. dropping the line level to mic
    level - and then of course you'd have to plug the pedal output into an
    unbalanced mic IN on your mixer.
    
    I detailed how to build a line-to-mic level attenuator cord in an
    ancient note "Low-Tech Stereo Home Productions".
    
    It's still a cool way to stereoize a signal..
    
    karl

    Agree with last reply about voltage mis-match, however I am quite
    successfully feeding a BOSS foot pedal chorus from the Aux send
    of my M240 and feeding the stereo signals back into two of the mixer
    channels. In this case there is probably a lot of headroom in the
    pedal, but by keeping the aux send level down the results are quite
    acceptable.
    
    On a unit such as overdrive or distortion that rely on the dynamics
    of the input, this may not work quite as well.
    
    Ken
      

    Folks have explained the level problem, as to the difference between
    "distortion" and "overdrive", there's no explanation as there might
    be to distinguish phase shifting and chorusing (delay time among
    other things).
    
    Basically, an "overdrive" pedal is intended to simulate the sound
    of an overdriven tube preamp.  It's a "warmer" sound.  Distortion
    tends to be more of a clipped sound, ala an overdriven speaker
    or power amp.
    
    Most distortion pedals use to be nothing more than an op-amp that
    clipped the signal above a certain level yielding a similar set
    of overtones to a distorted amp.
    
    Distortion pedals aren't as "warm" as overdrives and they tend to
    be a bit buzzier as well.
    
    A good overdrive pedal will respond fairly well to dynamics, whereas
    most distortion pedals give you a pretty constant sound.
    
    	db

Thanks all for replies, and db, thanks for the description.   I went over
to Daddy's tonight and plugged 3 boss pedals (a HM, an overdrive, and a "turbo"
distortion) and a rat turbo distortion pedal into the fx sends and returns
of an M160 and loaded the EPS up with a "clean" guitar sound.  Well, I
kind of got the sounds I was looking for and all but there was a lot more
noise then I thought there'd be.  Must be the level problem.  I knew pedals
were noisy but this was a *lot* of *loud* noise.  Anyway, kill the idea of a
cheap pedal.  I guess I'm going to have to just wait until Publisher's 
Clearinghouse draws my number :-) and buy a rackmount guitar processer fx
module like the Art SGE or so.  A "clean" guitar sound from a sampler
run through a guitar fx box provides a better sound than a sampled fx'd sound
imho.  It was worth the try.

Chad

There is actually a simple and accurate decription of the difference between 
overdrive and distortion:

Overdrive is when you stand at the front of the stage, bend a string, arch
your back and adopt that "I've suffered for my music - now it's your turn"
expression.

Distortion is when you stand with one foot on the monitor speaker and point
the head of your guitar at the crowd with that "I've just eaten your mother"
expression.

Easy isn't it :-)

Cheers,

    Derek.