Conference napalm::commusic_v1

What's your budget?  Any system (short of LucasFilm) can be made
better for "just a little more" money.
    John Sauter 

Re; -1

	My budget?  Oh, say around $5k tops.  If I were rich, I'd just
buy a Fairlight or a Synclavier and be done with it.

	Mostly, I'm wondering (now that MIDI makes this possible) what
kinds of less expensive equipment can be 'patched' together to make
a fairly powerful system.

						- Karl

The problem I always wind up with when I'm debating the MIDI vs. multitrack
controversy is that if you want to do without a multitrack and go totally
MIDI, you have to have a good number of synths, which runs into big bucks
real fast.

My suggestion would be:

	Some kind of 8 channel multitrack and mixer  (mixdown to cassette)

	SMPTE sync to tape device  (would allow you to sync your MIDI sequencer
	to the tape using SMPTE time code)

	A good, general purpose synth of your liking (Mirage, DX7, etc.)

I personally would kill for that kind of set up.  You lose being able to
have several synths playing live while overdubbing, but you gain the ability
to overdub as much as you want, and still have the flexibility to change
synth patches because your performance is recorded in your MIDI sequencer
as well.

Later, if your budget grows, you can add synths (for example, a TX216) to
have more tone colors available in real time.

		Good luck,
		Derek

I agree with Derek. If you have good software on your PC and/or you don't
feel the need for an expensive keyboard, you can do quite well with one
powerful synth like the DX-7 (has keyboard) or the TX-216 (2 DX-7s, no keys)
or the Roland Super Jupiter (no keys). These are all in the under $2000
range. A good 8-track 1/2" deck and a 12 channel or better mixing board
should run you about $3000. I use the Tascam 38 deck and it is so excellent
that I have successfully done 4 ping-pong mixdowns before I heard any
noise added to the music. With 8 tracks and only 1 ping-pong per final
track, you have effectively 7+6+5+4+3+2+1 = 28 tracks!!! To get this much
tonality out of live MIDI synthesizers you'd have to spend about $50,000.
(This doesn't even take into consideration that there isn't a PC on the
market that could, in real time, control 28 synthesizers.) So far, I've
spent $5000 of your money already. I think that initially, you could get
by using MIDI sync to tape without using a SMPTE controller. However,
this lacks some flexibility. John Sauter has an amazing device made by
Roland which will put a SMPTE track on your tape and synchronize the world
to that track. I believe it's around $1000.

	Ted

re;-1 (Ted)

	I appreciate your taking the trouble to respond, but you didn't
get the gist of my original note - it's ONLY sampling machines I want.
DX's are of no use to me.

	The goal is to mimic a traditional classical orchestra.  

	As for needing $50k for direct MIDI, I'm not so sure. 4 Mirages
at $1700 each is only $6800; that's 4*8=32 voices.  I'm wondering if
it is possible to use many cheapo instruments and still end up being
cost-effective.

	(Which, however, brings up a Mirage question - even though it's 
8 notes polyphonic, can it really play 8 separate instruments?  My confusion 
comes from the fact that they usually have only 3 instruments on a disk.)

	As for no PC being capable of driving that many synths in real
time, I dunno.  Doesn't 'Total Music' advertize being able to handle
something outrageous like 199 tracks?  What, exactly, does this mean?

	Keep the comments coming, I appreciate it.

							- Karl

OK, I'll try.  $5K huh?  Difficult...

1 Mirage rack mount		$1300
1 Mirage input filter		$ 150
1 Teac 8 trk and mixdown	$3000
1 SMPTE controller		$1000
1 Mirage VES (MAC software)	$ ???
1 Mirage Advanced Sampler's Guide  50
    				-----
    				$5500 + ???

I would eventually add:

1 88-key MIDI kybd controller	$1900

and maybe later:

1 RX-11 Drum Machine		$ 750(?)
1 Mirage rack mount		$1300 [for doubling without hassle and SFX]

and I could go on with digital delays and reverbs, but I digress.

Not too much different from what other folks were saying.  I went
into Daddy's to listen to the AKAI sampler and the fellow said that
since I had a Mirage already, there was no comparison.  He said that
the AKAI sounded better because of 12 bit samples, but over a much
shorter range, since you could only play one sample.  The Mirage lets
you put up to 16 different samples over the keyboard.  This lets you
create a much better full range sound.  So I never heard the machine
but the fellow said that my fears about 'munchkinization' were true.
I might go back and press to hear the device, but it's not very useful
since I already have a Mirage.

For those who haven't heard, the 'Input Filter' is an add-on that ups the
maximum sampling rate of the Mirage to 50KHz.  That's all I know about it.
When it comes in, I'll learn more (like does it also expand sample memory?).
VES (Visual Editing System) is software available for the Apple (soon also
for the MAC) that allows you to read/write/edit sample data for the Mirage.
It requires the MASOS (Mirage Advanced Sampler's Operating System) which
you get in the Advanced Sampler's Guide.

The Mirage rack mount is a Mirage without a keyboard (but with a disk drive).
Foo.  It only saves about $400 over the regular Mirage.  Not a great savings.
And I don't need n disk drives for n Mirages.  I wrote Mirage a letter
expressing my desire for a rack mount Mirage with neither keyboard nor
disk drive, but obviously hope is slim.  I don't think they have the resources
to do two different rack mount versions.  I was hoping for $600-$700 per
rack mount unit.  I lost by a factor of two...  Ah well.

And on your question of voices, Karl, you can have up to sixteen at once
but that would take some severe restrictions.  It's probably best to think
of the Mirage as a two voice multi-timbral 8 note polyphonic machine.  With
envelope generators and filters thrown in... It's really quite a nice machine
for the price.  And if you need sixteen limited range voices at once, you can
do it (8 notes at a time).

-jim

re: -.1

Is the rack mount Mirage available now?  That would get rid of my fears of
what I considered an inferior action on the Mirage keyboard...    I could
buy a good MIDI keyboard and a Mirgae rack.  Ah, the possibilities.....

	Derek

Re; -1,-2

	I was curious too.  Just called DJM in Nashua and asked about
the rack mount Mirage.  The salesperson said it was not available but
would be in January. Cost "between $1300 and $1400".

							-Karl