Conference kaosws::canada

    
    Derek,
    
     In reply to your question, I think it is fairly obvious why
    the natives would want no part of a sovereign Quebec. The
    Province of Quebec is notorious for not respecting Indian
    land rights and treating the Aboriginal Indians as a second
    class entity.
    
     You might say that this holds true of both the U.S. and
    Canada as whole countries, but many treaties have been signed
    and are being honoured by the respective federal governments
    today.
    
    So, its' a case of being part of a known entity vs.
    part of a dubious unknown entity.
    
     Off topic, I am under the impression the BQ/PQ leadres are
    purposely fomenting a little strife in domestic and int'l
    circles, attempting to polarize the citizens of Canada for
    or against Quebec separation.
     This little ploy seems to be working, as I read about
    a backlash to Quebec's demands , increasing.
    
     I am of the opinion that if this continues, enough Canadian
    peolpe will be so disgusted at the facade of the BQ representing
    Canada, that the end result will be a major rebellion by
    English Canada , which will unfortunately play right into the
    hands of the likes of L.Bouchard and J.Parizeau.
    
     It appears that this conferderation of ours is very fragile at this
    time, and will be more so in the next few months.
    

Probably because Quebec would be so broke that it would have no money to give 
them, as much as the Feds are currently giving them (the natives that is).

/Mario

    who said that the ROC want's them
    
    as mentioned....remember OKA
    
    on a side note it seems that OKA is again in the news now the natives
    are clearing trees in a disputed area and the gov is ordering a stop.
    
    Same $&i* different day.
    
    
    Brian V
    

    Not to be against all of you, but the english (and the united staters)
    did such a good job on the indians that they present no threat to
    anyone outside of Qu�bec;
    
    	Where else are there reserves VERY close to large urban areas?
    
    	Where else have the natives been given compensation for land
    	used for public good (James Bay, please don't be misled into
    	thinking the reservoirs are polluted because of their sheer
    	size, the contaminants are coming from the air, from the
    	other provinces burning coal, gas and oil to make electric
    	power not to mention all the cars and industries).
    
    Now if any of you ever see the other side of things, you may find that
    the natives in OKA are cutting down the trees they said they were
    protecting in the last skirmish.  People living near these reserves get
    awaken by gun shots, the natives drive at demential speeds on the
    roads, do not obey traffic sings (I have seen this myself, a car driven
    by a native went right trough a major road without stopping at the stop
    sing).  The Mohawks (well some of them) are truly lawless (I was going
    to say savages, but that may be construed as too strong).  The only
    reason the natives would want to seccede from Qu�bec is as one noter
    said before, they would stop getiing all the billions they are now
    getting from the feds.  The natives in the reserves close to Montr�al
    have built a large arsenal with the money they obtained from their
    smuggling operations.  If they were better people, the money they got
    that way would have been spent on their "brothers", that is not the
    case, some got rich while others were in the ditch.  I don't think they
    are better than us (on the whole).
    
    Jean
    

    re: .4
    
    >	Where else are there reserves VERY close to large urban areas?
    
    	Vancouver has a reserve right in the city.
    
    Sandy

    Re:  .4
    
    > smuggling operations.  If they were better people, the money they got
    > that way would have been spent on their "brothers", that is not the
    > case, some got rich while others were in the ditch.  I don't think they
    > are better than us (on the whole).
    
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>  some got rich while others were in the ditch  <<<<<<<<<<<<
    
    
    They've learned a lot from the 'white man' over the last 350 years.
    
    
    Robin
    

    here here!

KAOFS::J_DESROSIERS

 You must be out of practice, your true feelings are showing through the
rhetoric.

>>Not to be against all of you, but the english (and the united staters)
>>did such a good job on the indians that they present no threat to
>>anyone outside of Qu�bec;

 Are you that out of touch, or are you hoping no one else knows anything ?
One example mentioned is the land in Vancouver. The railway runs through it,
but I suppose in your estimation BC would not consider that a potential threat.
More BQ/PQ facts ?

>>Where else are there reserves VERY close to large urban areas?
See above.

>>Where else have the natives been given compensation for land
>>used for public good 
BC has a good record for land claims. I believe that they did not take the good
land and give the native scrub brush and call it a land claim settlement though,
so maybe you and your BQ/PQ buddies don't want to count it because the natives
didn't get screwed.

>>Now if any of you ever see the other side of things, you may find that
>>the natives in OKA are cutting down the trees they said they were
>>protecting in the last skirmish. 
They were protecting a burial ground (ie. LAND) not trees. Tree hugging is
mostly confined to the left coast.

>>People living near these reserves get awaken by gun shots,
I agree this is bad, but what has it to do with the self determination of
Natives if Quebec seperates. (other than charactor assination)

>>the natives drive at demential speeds on the roads, do not obey traffic
>>sings (I have seen this myself, a car driven by a native went right trough
>>a major road without stopping at the stop sing). 
Comming from a Quebecer this is truely funny. Anyone living along a Quebec
border will know what I mean. But again other than charactor assination,
what is the point.

>>The Mohawks (well some of them) are truly lawless (I was going
>>to say savages, but that may be construed as too strong).  
More assination. How about this one. French people are bloodthirsty killers.
I have seen one (on TV) go into the Quebec Provincal Parliment and shoot people.
If you are not convinced that French people are killers by nature, I'm not
surprised. Please don't be surprised if your "logical argument" is dismissed
out of hand.


>>The only reason the natives would want to seccede from Qu�bec is as one noter
>>said before, they would stop getiing all the billions they are now
>>getting from the feds.
 With your track record for speaking for the ROC, you must admit YOUR opinion
of what motivates others is not generally accurate. 


>>If they were better people, the money they got
>>that way would have been spent on their "brothers", that is not the
>>case, some got rich while others were in the ditch.  
And the new Quebec will be a socialist paradise where the fruits of the labour
of all will be shared equally. Your bias is showing, and it is not pretty.

>>I don't think they are better than us (on the whole).
They have names for people who classify people by race. It too is not pretty.


							Derek.
 
    

    SET MODERATOR
    
    Please discuss the issues ... not the people ... this note has
    stepped perilously over the line.
    
    NO PERSONAL ATTACKS.
    
    This will be the ONLY warning.  One complaint will be the end.
    
    
    Signed
    
    Your moderators.

    CSC32::S_BROOK
    
    >>    NO PERSONAL ATTACKS.
    
     Please tell us the policy on racial slurs.
    
    				Derek.

Yes, the Squamish Indian band is smack in the middle of West Vancouver. 
However, much of the land the band owns is leased, including the land that
the rail line runs through.  For this reason, they could not barracade the
rail line if someone or something upset them.  Another interesting fact is
that the Squamish band is one of the richest bands in all of Canada, yet
their reserve looks no better than any other reserver (ie. pretty dumpy). 
The exception to this are a few select, rather lavish, houses which happen
to belong to band council members who control all the bands money.  Figure
that one out.....

The comment about the "indians learning from the white man" is a load of
bunk!  That's one excuse some people try to use for giving land to natives.
Like "we screwed up so bad for so long, they must be able to do better"...
reality check!!!

>
>BC has a good record for land claims. I believe that they did not take the
>good land and give the native scrub brush and call it a land claim
>settlement....
>

True, however what the natives then do with the land is another story. 
Because they are natives, any backlash over their use of the land is easily
put down by them saying the land is their's and they can do as they please
with it.  I site an example that happened up near smithers a few years ago: 
The Nass (I believe) indian band was given rights to a large section of
prestein forest that was slated for logging by one of the logging
companies.  The Natives called the land thiers and refused to let any
loggers in.  The town of Smithers also joined in because the area attracted
a lot of tourists.  So here we had native and whites fighting side by
side.  In a political move, the Natives were eventually given rights to the
land.  A year later, they decided they needed some jobs and started logging
the area.  The town of Smithers put up a protest but the Natives told them
to take a flying leap, they land was thier and it was thier righ to log it!

I fully support Native land claims as long as there is some kind of
governing body, within the Native community, that ensures the land will be
protected and left accessable to all people, whites and natives.  That
means some kind of self government for Natives.  HOWEVER, natives have a
long way to go before they are ready for self government (eg. lavish homes
while the rest of band lives in shacks, arsonal of weapons while the rest
of the band starves.)

Cheers,
Dave.

    Re: .10
    
    Policies and complaint procedure are clearly laid out in 535.* 

Mohawks of Kanesatake

Population			1,760
living on territory		1,130
living off territory		  630
male % of population		  45%
female % of population	  	  55%
funding from federal gov.
  for fiscal 93/94 	 $5.7 million
band deficit		     $700,000
land base		 931 hectares
claimed land base     67,342 hectares
# houses on territory		  327
% of population suffering
  alcohol or drug abuse		  65%
# students in elementary, 
  high school			  287
# in universities, colleges	   71
student dropout rate		  60%
# employed by band		   90
# otherwise employed, full or
  part time, on territory	  135 
# employable residents,
   aged 18-64 	                  752
unemployment rate		  62%
% of unemployed on ui		  37%
% of unemployed on social 
  assistance			  45%
% of employable attending school  12%
paved roads on territory      4.6 km
gravel roads on territory     4.6 km
organized fire-fighting        none

Animosity to the provincial police is said to be so great that there has been a
breakdown of law & order since 1990; there's no local police, and the
provincial police won't always respond to calls.

Reserve territory is not contiguous, but scattered "patchwork"; federal
government has been buying adjacent land for reserve since 1990.

    going back to the base note.
    
    Natives have said that they would like to go back to the 1867 borders.
    
    However isn't most of northern Q crown lands...read federal owned.
    
    re -1. 
    I did the math and was surprised to see that the $5.7 mil is really
    only $3238 per person. Does this figure include welfare and other
    government aid or what.
    
    
    Brian V
    
    I still feel that the best way to resolve the whole situation is to 
    start negotiating the division, and that way people would understand
    the real costs involved. Do the people of Q really want to separate 
    if to do so would leave the province raped of finances and resources.
    Or how much would the ROC be willing to pay just to be done with it.
    
    BV
    

    I typed in the table as it appeared in the paper.  My guess would be
    that the figure for funding is for administering the reserve & doesn't
    include ui, etc, but I don't know.
    
    Polls published a month or so showed that a large percentage of
    Quebeckers had a mistaken idea of how well the natives on Quebec
    reserves live.  A step toward dealing with the situation is to clear
    away such misconceptions.
    
    Separatists who deny the legitimacy of native aspirations to
    self-determination & self-government are obviously being inconsistent.
    
    -Stephen

    If you remember years ago, everyone was proud to have at least a bit of
    native blood coursing trough their veins, now the reverse is true,
    largely due to bad (real???) press on the natives.  The image they
    project at this time is not good, especially in Qu�bec (I don't make up
    what they do even if one of you thinks so all the time) where in
    addition to their actions, there is also a language barrier (most
    tribes speak english).  There is a BIG difference with the tribes
    living far from Montr�al, where this language barrier does not exist
    and where the reserves are not dumps.  Now don't make the equation
    natives_who_speak_french = OK, All it probably means is that the Hurons
    were/are better at managing their business than the Mohawks.  The
    Mohawks did such a poor job of promoting themselves in a positive light
    that it is going to take many years for my opinion to change.  To think
    that the only recourse they have is to take all the benefits from the
    system while putting nothing in is pure gangsterism.
    
    I said this quote from F�lix Leclerc many times before;
    
    "La meilleure fa�on de tuer un homme c'est de le payer � ne rien faire"
    
    (The easiest way to kill a man is to pay him for doing nothing)
    
    Which is what has been going on for a long time with the natives, plus,
    you can't "buy" peace.
    
    Jean
    

    Yes, I agree, the Mohawks have not done well in promoting their cause.
    I think it's a shame really, the way Native issues have panned out.
    However I still believe that the Natives could have been treated much
    better. Just because they promote themselves poorly doesn't mean they
    should be treated poorly.

    Guess what I am saying is that both sides are to blame at greater or
    lesser degrees depending on the issue for there are many issues.


    Glenn

    I heard on the radio that the land the natives are fighting over in OKA
    belonged to a religious order and they tried to settle this matter
    YEARS ago when Jean Chr�tien was minister of indian affairs, at that
    time, there was no golf course, the land was not occupied.  Just
    letting things go sometimes results in a rotten situation.  
    
    The natives may be right on the claims they have on the land, but the
    way they are going about it has put off everyone.  With no public
    sympathy, they have a long fight on their hands.
    
    Jean