Conference kaosws::canada

    It's Our first, so you might be able to understand why we're so worked
    up about it. My belief is that this will turn out NOT to be random.
    Rather the perps shot up a few other things to try to make it look
    random. Could be wrong, but that's what happened the last time I heard
    of a "drive by" shooting in the Ottawa area.
    
    								Derek.

    
    
    Drive by shooting! Sheesh! Here I thought it was Drive-Thru shooters
    offered by one of those bars frequented by the college kids down on the 
    market. What has this city become!!
    
    	Derek, Hurry! Get RobinRayhood  to increase the dole before crime
    overides this country.

    Saw this interesting stat the other day
    Number of voilent crimes per 100,000 population
    Toronto	1044
    Ottawa-Hull	1301
    

    Isn't that Lies Damn Lies and Sadistics ????
    

    Obviously the solution here is that we import lots of guns. I think
    this will help. Of course, once the guns are here we should take steps
    to curb their use.

    Yes, perhaps that's the best thing.....


    Glenn

    sadly, I appear to be wrong. The paper today says the police are
    looking for three "youths" that were driving a small white car. They
    suspect the car was stolen for a "joy ride". As if stealing a car is
    not enough "fun" they decide to take shots at people and things, and
    end up killing someone. Man they sure must have had a "good time".
    
     Lets hope they catch them, and show them the meaning of "hard time".
    
    
    							Derek.
    
    							

 
    	Without an arrest, everything is speculation I suppose but
    it was also implied in the paper that it was retribution for the
    conviction of a member of the Brave Star Gang (in the Richard Ropertz
    murder).  This scares me very much.  If it's organized screwed up
    killer child gangs now doing this awful stuff, we're in big trouble.
    Reform of the juvenile system can't come soon enough for me.
    
    Candace

    Hi Candy,
    
     I think murder is a very adult crime, and unless the perp is 12 years
    old, should be tried in "adult" court. If these "youths" are tried in
    juvinile court, I may have to take a few days off to go down and
    protest at the trial.
    
    
    							Derek.

    

    	Each potential case should be reviewed individually. I do not agree a 
    blanket policy should be put in place. Gotta start looking at the 
    juvenile's environment when you're talking a 13 year old kid. 

Did my eyes deceive me or did we get a coherent reply from KAOFS::M_COTE?

/Mario

    KAOFS::M_COTE
    
     Sounding more and more like a socialmite there Mike. I must be having
    a positive effect on you. I was going to use 13 as my example, except
    that 13 is not what it used to be anymore.
    
    							Derek.

    
    And some people in here are sound a little REFORMish?
    
    Pat

    re:
    
    |    KAOFS::M_COTE
    |
    |     Sounding more and more like a socialmite there Mike. I must be
    |having a positive effect on you. I was going to use 13 as my example,
    |except that 13 is not what it used to be anymore.
    |
    |                                                        Derek.
    
    Well, perhaps in this case 2 wrongs can make a right....
    
    
    Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.
    
    Glenn
    

    POLAR::RICHARDSON
    
     I thought it was three lefts make a right. Only on a different plane.
    
    							Derek.

    Ya.... that'll fly.
    
    ;-)
    
    Glenn

    I heard at noon that an arrest has been made......press conference this
    afternoon.
    
    pete 

    >>Number of voilent crimes per 100,000 population
    >>Toronto	1044
    >>Ottawa-Hull  1301
    
    Very misleading!!  Particularly when the media don't explain how the
    statistics were derived.
    
    The data are derived from the municipality's police force records. 
    Thus, Toronto which has a metropolitan force covering a vast area,
    including downtown, has a population of about 1.5 million.  Ottawa,
    which does not have a metropolitan force, covers a smaller area
    including downtown where most of the violent crime is committed.  The
    population base that the Ottawa Police cover is about 300,000.
    
    Statisticians have stated that if the same area of Toronto, including
    downtown, were used as that of Ottawa (effectively excluding the low
    crime suburbs which 'level off' the crime rate for a metropolitan
    municipality) then the violent crime rate would be more realistic. 
    That is, Ottawa would be less violent that Toronto.
    
    Maybe the solution is to include the stats from Gloucester, Nepean,
    Kanata into those of Ottawa. ;^)
    
    Also, the reporting of crime has increased NOT the incidence of crime.
    

    I suppose that the rape of the rest of the country by politicians
    in Ottawa isn't considered a violent crime.
    
    
    ; )
    
    Brian V
    

    I heard at noon that an arrest has been made..
    
     Best news I have heard all day. Thanks for the update.
    
    						Derek.

    Re: .18
    
    Statistics are, as we all know, malliable to the point one wants to
    prove. I don't know exactly where the stats I quoted were originally
    derived the magazine article did not attribute them, I presume they're 
    from, as you suggest, the stats the police provide to the CCJS
    (Canadian Center for Justice Statistics, a part of StatsCan). 
    
    I don't buy your arguement though, 1.5 million represents the
    population of Regional of Metropolitain Toronto, the greater Metro area
    population (Toronto and the Burbs) is about 3.5 mil. Ottawa/Hull's
    stats don't include Glouchester and Nepean; Toronto's don't include
    Mississauga and Markham.  
      

    All in all, it sounds like everyone could use a good gruntling. People
    in this country are pretty disgruntled.
    
    
    Glenn

     To add to this, it seems the "young offenders" were known to
    police, and of the 3, some had long previous records. How many
    more like these are out on the streets?
    
    On top of this, Elgin St., where the shooting occurred, is usually
    bristling with police, and the station is within a few blocks of
    where this young Northern Telecom engineer was murdered.
    
    5 years max if the accused is convicted of this crime. Big deal.
    
    Pat

    
    I notice how much of an uproar this one isolated drive by shooting has
    sent you Canadian folks into. If only it were that rare here in the States.
    
    Unfortunately, our Media is boared with Drive-by's and are looking for 
    something more diabolical to shock us with.  Hopefully, they won't find 
    anything.
    
    Steve
    

    >>I don't buy your arguement though, 1.5 million represents the
    >>population of Regional of Metropolitain Toronto, the greater Metro area
    >>population (Toronto and the Burbs) is about 3.5 mil. Ottawa/Hull's
    >>stats don't include Glouchester and Nepean; Toronto's don't include
    >>Mississauga and Markham.  
    
    Precisely, the more suburban area you include, the lower the rate.
    
    Try this on:
    
    	we'll use the area and population density that is used for Ottawa as
    	the template and apply it to Toronto, i.e. predominantly a downtown
    	and urban area, so let's use a population of 300,000.  Also, let's 
    	normalise to the same violent crime rate as that given Ottawa, 1300.
    
    	So, now we have the same population in the same type of environment
    	and we get the same crime rate.  Now add 1.2 million people from
    	predominantly a suburban area and what happens to Toronto's violent
    	crime rate?  It drops.
    
    	300,000 people in a downtown, urban area = violent crime rate 1300
    	1.5 million from the same area + the 'burbs = 1040
    
    	That means that the 'burbs have a violent crime rate (for the 1.2
    	million people who live in them, in the Toronto area) of 928.  The
    	combination gives the overall rate of 1040.
    
    
    	You can apply this to almost any city in the Western Hemisphere
    	(it's been done) and get the same results.  You have to get more
    	information about HOW the stats were derived before you can begin
    	to understand the results.

Factor in the city of Scarborough and the violent crime rate
of Metro Toronto can go nowhere but up.

I havn't read about JANE-FINCH in the news lately, but I read 
about Scarborough every day.

/john