Conference kaosws::canada

    
    Don't get me started, Jean...
    
    Pat

    I want her to win as well, but the video evidence is pretty convincing.
    Her point, and far more valid than calling people names is that they
    have 1 hour to register complaints, and their coaches are standing
    behind them during the shooting to be able to see if a complaint is
    warrented. As it turns out, the targets are usually fresh for each
    shooter. In this case they were only painted once before the
    competition, making the job of the coach difficult, but not impossible.
    If they wanted to complain, they had their chance. That does not take
    away from the evidence that the targets are faulty, or the Gold medal
    from Canada.
    
     The fact that a Canadian benifited from the problem, and CTV followed
    the story so closely is a credit to this country, and our journalists.
    I am sure there is more than one country that would try to cover it up.
    
    By the way, he was discrediting the targets, not the participants.
    
    							Derek.

Turns out though that Karpov, the journalist who uncovered the story, had a 
vendeta against the Canadian biathlon Association (sp?).  He used to be a 
biathlon athlete in previous Olympics himself and never did better than 30 
place.  He thought he would use this story to bring attention to his name and 
sort of stir the pot.

This has NOTHING to do with Quebec Nationalism or Quebec-bashing.  Please 
guys, don't look for trouble where there isn't any.

/Mario

Well I heard that Tonya Harding hired this guy "Karpov" to stir up some 
controversy in the biathlon competition to divert attention away from the
women's figure skating event. :^)

Ben

Expecting a reply from Derek any minute now.  I can hear the keyboard 
going...

    Mario:
    
     Did you see the video ? After many denials even the woman who would
    have won seemed to admit that the targets failed. I think there is
    enough video evidence to make the point, regardless of the axe you say
    he is trying to grind.
    
    							Derek.

    In Ireland they don't even show the Olympics (Winter) on TV, let alone
    cover them in the newpapers. No team, no interest. Can anybody inform
    an exiled Canadian about what it is you discussing?
    
    
    Ted.

    1. Quebecer's are trying to push the point that "they" are winning
    medals, rather than Canadians.
    
    2. The winner of one of the female biathalons was a Canadian (from
    Quebec)
    
    3. The coverage person for the event believes he has seen a problem
    with the targets not registering hits which has effected the resuts.
    
    4. Since the coverage person is not from Quebec some people think the
    English media is trying to take a medal away from a Quebecer.
    
     This "national" paranoia Quebec has is enough to make me puke. I can
    hardly wait to see who they blame after they seperate.
    
    							Derek.

    sorry Mario, I'm just repeating what you told me.
    
    					Derek.

Don't be sorry Derek.

Want a buy a used car?  I got one for sale, it's as good as new.

    Actually, Karpov (the "journalist" in question) made a big bo-bo, even
    the other teams said he was full of manure, the officials said he was a
    pest (the actual quote "not more important than the mud on my shoes").
    CTV for some unknown reason deceided to back him up to the hilt, now
    both of them have egg on their faces, because the targets were proven
    to work right, what Karpov "tought" was direct hit was a peice of
    bullet hitting the target after hitting the outside edge, thus not
    enough to trigger the mechanism and to top it all, if a protest had to
    be lodged, it would have to be done inside of one hour AFTER the
    competition, not 48 hours.  Great journalism indeed, kinda yellowish if
    you ask me.
    
    Do you guys honestly think the Americans would spit on Tonia Harding if
    she does win a medal of any color?  She probably will not get to
    advertise for McDonald's BUT they will still be proud she did win.
    I know many people here who were VERY disappionted Elvis Stoiko (sp??)
    did not win a gold medal, because he deserved it much more than the
    soviet.
    
    Jean
    
    BTW Myriam won a gold in the 7.5Km biathelon this morning.
    

    
    Jean, they don't have kick starters anymore, but I did consider
    pushing the electric starter button.
    
    I am very happy for Bedard, happy for the positive press on the
    shooting sports, and I still wonder why it took so long for
    vindication of the Canadian medal in Synchro swim at the summer games.
    
    Pat 

In terms of the target shooting, at least it is quite proveable that there
is or isn't something wrong.  The "subjective judgement" sports, like
synchro, and skating leave SO much to be desired, and this is not
just an ONLY in Canada problem.  Look at the ice dance the other night ...
There is no WAY the team that got the gold should have ... It was shown
very clearly that there were faults in the judging.  The room for prejudice
in these sports is just phenomenal.

Stuart

What unfairly cost Elvis the gold is his Artistic Impression marks.

It turns out that the judges were so conservative that they didn't pick on 
the artistic feel of his long program, namely martial arts.  But now that 
they've seen it, they may score higher and accept it better in future 
Olympics and competitions.

This is comparable to ski jumping.  In the past when a few jumpers started 
the *open* stance during the jumps, judges scored them low on style.  Then it 
became the norm because it allowed the jumpers to go so much further.  Judges 
now score high on style for open stance jumps.  Every sport has to evolve.

/Mario

    But skating HAS allowed and accepted these things in the past, but
    has done a "back to basics" and alas done it with poor consistency
    and so on.  Also, when you look at the way skating is scored, it
    is so biased by events OTHER than the program they are watching.
    
    The idea is the judges use placement marking ... ie one mark for one
    skater.  Thus if a judge has awarded say marks from 5.6 to 6.0 to 
    other skaters, then someone else comes along who skates better, the
    judge has no choice but to award them 5.5  !  Thus, they have to
    pre-judge the skaters to allow them to keep open certain marks for
    skaters they expect to give that mark.  The system, even if marked
    quite fairly, can STILL produce anomolous results.  The system for
    scoring in judgemental sports really needs an overhaul.
    
    Stuart

    Now that this note has shifted to a discussion of judging...
    
    The simple fact is that any "sport" that is scored by the subjective
    judgement of a panel of judges and includes "artistic impression" or
    "style points", IS NOT A SPORT AND DOES NOT BELONG IN THE OYLMPICS!!
    
    The people participating in these so-called sports are certainly
    talented, but what they are doing should hardly be considered a true
    sporting competition.  The outcome of these events has no more
    credibility than a match in the WWF (which at least has the decency to
    say it's in the "sports-entertainment" industry).
    

    A sport competition is not a scientific experiment. In particular, it is
    not required from the conditions and results of a competition to be 
    repeatable. Once that is recognized, scoring on "artistic impression"
    an ice dancing performance is just as valid as scoring the time of a
    race or the height length of a jump: these are just as much cultural
    standards agreed upon and not real "measures" or "comparaisons"
    significant of the performance. I explain: the challenge of running
    100m in less than 9.xx" is not the same for all athletes, all the time,
    under all conditions (they differ by their individual characteristic: size,
    weight, training, diet, reaction to altitude, temperature, emotional 
    pressure, etc.). The consistancy of their performance or of their relative
    ranking will be affected by thousands of physical and psychological
    variable, which should also be taken into account to provide a real
    measurement or comparaison. Of course, from time to time, there will be
    an athlete performing at a level perceived consistantly high and
    consistantly better than the rest, over very long period of time and 
    over a wide range of conditions. These individuals are to be compared
    to what geniuses are in intellectual practices (and we could argue of
    what such practices are to be: artistic or scientific or both -is
    Einstein more of a genius than Michelangelo? - just as you would ask if
    a baseball player is more of  an athlete than a synchronized swimmer).   
    I personally find the Olympics a painful demonstration of chauvinistic
    moronism, where under the guise of fair and square competition, each
    country tries to reassure their TV-viewer of how much better than the
    rest they are...

    re: .-1
    
    I tempted to simply answer BULLS***, but I haven't read your argument
    thoroughly, so will reserve final judgement...
    
    In any event, my position is very simple - the participants involved
    are the ones who should determine the outcome of the sporting event,
    not the officials.  The officials role should only be to ensure the
    rules are followed and to apply the proper penalties when required.  Yes,
    there will always be some subjective judgement involved (for example,
    sometimes a trip in hockey isn't...), but subjective judgement
    shouldn't be a significant factor in the results AND IT SHOULD NEVER BE
    100% of the result such as in alleged sports such as figure skating,
    syncronized swimming, diving, etc.
    
    Also, there should always be an appeals process - it's impossible to
    appeal a judges subjective judgement in figure skating.  As a result,
    you have the continual moaning about rigged results in figure skating
    and the constant manipulation of judges before and during an event. 
    For example, a figure skater at Lillehammer stated the warm up period
    really isn't to warm up the figure skaters - it's an additional
    opportunity to influence the judges.

    Oh no, NOTES collision and it appears Andy Watters and I agree! 
    Obviously, my comments were not in response to Mr. Watters...

    On the other hand, a sport like figure skating does require a high
    degree of physical fitness and athletic ability, unlike, say, curling.
    Fortunately, curling remains a non-Olympic "sport".
    
    -Stephen

    CTHU26::S_BURRIDGE
    
     Put your foot in it there. 1. although it doesnot require the physical
    abilities of a biathalon, it is most certainly a game of skill. This
    skill is displayed through physical actions, which to me must be part
    of the definition of a sport. 2. Curling is an Olympic sport, this
    set of Olympics were planned prior to the acceptance of curling, and
    they could not provide the facilities. Look out for Canada in '96.
    
    							Derek.

    If curling is a sport worthy of inclusion in the Olympics for the
    reasons you give, then surely darts, crokinole, shuffleboard etc -
    any pastime or amusement requiring a modicum of physical skill - also
    qualify.  The olympics should be for athletes, not just people who've
    developed some skill at such non-athletic activities.
    
    -Stephen

Stephen,

If you believe that curling is a non-athletic activity, I suggest you go try
it!  You'll soon discover that fitness plays a big role in that game of
skill both as a sweeper and a stone thrower.  A good level of leg and lower
body fitness gives the thrower a greater ability to deliver repeatable
stones.  My lack of fitness meant that when I played, repeatability was
a big problem.

Stuart

   >> The olympics should be for athletes, not just people who've
    >>developed some skill at such non-athletic activities.
    
     Tell that to Linda Thom, you know, won a medal for pistol shooting. I
    suspect curling requires more calories than lying down and shooting a
    gun. Maybe it is your definition of a sport that is off, not that
    curling is not a sport.
    
    							Derek.

    Derek,
    
    If merely burning calories were enough to make someone an athlete,
    snow-shovellers would be athletes, too.
    
    Some competitive pursuits require a high degree of physical fitness
    combined with superior hand-eye coordination and other physical skills.
    Others don't.  We draw a line somewhere between the decathlon and
    blackjack.  It seems to me that curling doesn't belong among the truly
    athletic pursuits, i.e. those on the same side of the line as the
    decathlon, which are the ones that belong in the Olympics.
    
    Humbly,
    
    Stephen

    Keep 'em coming, this is getting fun.
    
    Jean
    

    
    >>Some competitive pursuits require a high degree of physical fitness
    >>combined with superior hand-eye coordination and other physical
    >>skills. Others don't.
    
     I could not have said it better. I strongly suspect you have little or
    no experience with actually playing the sport of curling. The
    tournaments are long, and besides getting tired, the sweepers have to
    deal with blisters that then get rubbed off. Now that you have nice
    fresh skin exposed, you still have to perform the activity that cause
    the skin to be rubbed off in the first place. Not for your average beer
    swilling dart player. You look at the old fart at the local rink and
    say he is no athlete, and you may be right. But then again, the average
    guy in a fun hockey league isn't either, does that make hockey less of
    a sport ? 
    
    							Derek.

    Snow shovellers also get tired, and may develop blisters.
    
    -Stephen

    but I have yet to see a World Snow Shoveling Championship, which in
    curling is called the Silver Broom. One could argue that any sport that
    already has world championships is a natural candidate for inclusion in
    the Olympics. Show shovellers need not apply.
    
    
    							Derek.

    All snow shovellers need to do is make a heap ...
    
    You can argue that a lot of sports are really not deserving
    of olympic status on the basis of effort and a little skill.
    
    What kind of sport is ski jumping ?
    What kind of sport is free-style skiing?
    What kind of sport is the luge ?
    What kind of sport is motor racing ?
    What kind of sport is soap box derby ?
    
    Curling requires skill, a certain amount of athletecism, and
    a lot of stamina ... sound like a lot of other sports ... and
    a lot of non-sports too
    
    Stuart

    Since, I started this...
    
    Snowshovelling could be set up so that it qualifies by my definition of
    a support - no pompous side-liners holding up scores!  For example,
    snowshovelling could be scored by how long it takes some one to shovel
    a certain volume or weight of snow, as opposed to "my he makes a nice
    heap".
    
    We'll never agree on what is a sport and what isn't.  I participate in
    competitive ballooning (don't worry, I ready for the Hot Air jokes) and
    ballooning is a sport in Alberta (sits on the Alberts Sports Council,
    gets government funding etc.), but isn't in many other provinces and in
    the opinion of the feds.  We have National, Continental and World
    championships in several different disciplines - gas, hot air, regular
    balloons, ariships etc. but we're not an Olympic sport and the probably
    of becoming one is remote, although other sports aviaton disiplines are
    very close.
    
    I would hope that we coud agree that any "sport" that relies solely on
    sibjective judgement should be considered for retirement for serious
    sporting events.
    

    or get better bozos to do the judging.

    Stuart,
    
    If you truly believe that "all snow shovellers need to do is make a
    heap" then clearly you have never shovelled snow seriously.  In
    serious snow shovelling, the snow must be removed from the designated
    area in a timely and effective manner, so that pedestrians and
    motorists can go about their business.  Moreover, the activity is so
    physically demanding that each winter a certain number of habitually
    sedentary people die of heart attacks sustained while shovelling snow.
    Snow shovelling is not a sport, it is a serious activity.  However, it
    is certainly more physically demanding than a leisurely pastime like
    curling.
    
    However, as I mentioned to Derek, the amount of effort expended isn't
    the criterion.  The criterion is the level of athleticism required. 
    The physiques of many of the big-time curlers we're shown on television
    don't look to me like those of "athletes."  One could say the same of
    snooker players.  I would say that curling and snooker are equally
    deserving of being Olympic sports -- i.e., not very.
    
    -Stephen
    

    CTHU26::S_BURRIDGE
    
     Please define "athleticism" as used in the following sentance (of
    yours)
    
    >>The criterion is the level of athleticism required.
    
    
    							Derek.

    What is a sentance Derek?
    
    Hopefully,
    
    Glenn

    Derek,
    
    .26 describes what I mean.
    
    -Stephen
    

    >>What is a sentance Derek?
    
    
       Something I have a hard time constructing without making a spelling
       mistake.
    
    								Derk.

    I was hoping you would help define where you thought the line between
    decathalon and tiddly-winks was WRT what is a sport or not. I have a
    feeling you define sport = sweat, which is not the way I would define
    it.
    
     What sports do you play? Maybe that is where your bias against
    curling, shooting etc. comes from. If you are a Triathalon type, I can
    see why you scoff at curling. I still would say you are wrong, but I
    could understand your perspective.
    
    			       				Derek.	

    I thought I made it abundantly clear that I do not believe
    "sport=sweat."  I don't know how you can persist in this misconception.
    As I said some time ago, if burning calories were the criterion, snow
    shovelling could be an Olympic sport.
    
    All I'm saying is that curlers have more in common with snooker
    players, say, than with decathletes, or figure skaters, or hockey
    players, or other serious athletes.  Wherever you care to draw the
    line, I say the curlers are on the wrong side of it.
    
    Stephen 

    In which case so are a lot of other "sports".
    
    Stuart

    

    Controversy,controversy,


    After KAOFS::WATTERS usual lunchtime bantering about how a Quebec
    athlete had won yet another gold medal, I became leery when I heard
    that controversy was plaguing the womens biathlon results. I took
    it upon myself to get a copy of the much discussed film, and make
    a decision for myself. After watching the film in slow mo, using my
    super techno-weenie zoom picture in picture, in Dolby surround sound
    include rear channels avec sub woofer, I carefully scanned the film
    for anything which looked well, funny.
    	It became apparent, thru study, that this said women from Quebec
    might be an impostor. Subtle to the amateur eye maybe, but still quite
    obvious, this lady was not wearing lots of makeup, nor was she wearing
    high heels. Who was this Myriam Bedard? Not from Quebec I say.

    	Did no one else notice this?
      
                                       

    CTHU26::S_BURRIDGE
    
    >>Some competitive pursuits require a high degree of physical fitness
    >>combined with superior hand-eye coordination and other physical
    >>skills.
    
     I think I figured it out. You don't think it is a sport because of the
    physical attributes of the compettitors. Curling requires superior
    hand-eye coordination, and other physical attributes. The only one
    missing is "high degree of physical fitness".
    
    I will point out thet the chubby ones are usually the skip, who gets the
    job beacuse of greater skill at shooting, and well as reading the way the
    ice is curling, as well as strategy. A washboard stomach will NOT qualify
    one to be a skip. 
    
     Is this you objection ? Are the people just too fat to be an athlete?
    Once they are not considered to be an athlete, does that disqualify the
    activity as a sport ? Feel free to avoid answering the questions.
    
    							Derek.

    
    Derek,
    
    	Are you a skip?
    

With the record amount of snowfall that Lillehammer has had this year,
the Olympic Committee is seriously considering SnowBagging as the demonstration
sport of the 1994 games. Studies have shown that this sport is far superior
to the primative sport of snow shovelling. It is environmentally sound and 
does not leave heaps of snow for the spectators to wade through. A city 
beyond Canada's capital has been asked to send judges. Why this city you may
ask. Well it was the birth place of the sport.

    Finally some recognition by the IOC!
    
    I'm crying tears of joy.
    
    Glenn

    KAOFS::M_COTE
    
    >>Are you a skip?
    
    
     It must have been my superior hand eye coordination that gave me away.
    
    							Derek.

    RE .45
    
    KAOA00::KAU138::MCGREGOR
    
    Do the competitors have to have washboard stomachs, or can they be like
    skips in curling(crafty staypuft marshmallow guts)?
    
    Are there categories for different engine sizes and swath sizes of
    snowblowers.  I believe that someone who has a 5 hp snowblower with a
    12" swath would be more athletic in nature, as they would have to make
    more passes to clear the area in question than someone with a 10
    horsepower 25" swath snowblower.
    
    I also believe that electric brooms should be banned, as they do not
    have snowbag attachments.  Also I've heard that they're fun to use until 
    your friends see you(right mike?).
    
    Shane

    To Derek "Skip" Street:
    
    Certainly Olympic competitors should be athletes.  Otherwise, why not
    have bridge tournaments, "bake-offs", etc. as part of the event?
     
    Letting in curling may just be the thin edge of the wedge.
    
    -Stephen

    If bobsled and luge (tobogganing) is an Olympic Sport, then so should
    Curling.
    
    I would like to see the 1000m Snow Shovel Relay get in though, I think
    you could bank on it being a success, if you get my drift.
    
    
    Glenn

    
    
    When I'm doooing the driveway, I've got Candu power backing me
    up, not those whimpy little 8Hp B&G's, thank you very much!

    CTHU26::S_BURRIDGE
    
     I see you took the oppertunity to not answer the questions.
    
    						Derek.

re:48

Well snow bagging is a team event. The blower may be quite full.

The bagger him/herself must have great upper body strength. 

The draggers are very strong and muscular (Arnies and Arniettes).


Of course the various snow conditions makes this sport very exciting to 
watch. Powder at the start, followed by slush, and to get to the finish
they must endure the dreaded ice. The relay event is quite spectactular. 

This sport will definately clean up the games.

    > Is this you objection ? Are the people just too fat to be an athlete?
    >Once they are not considered to be an athlete, does that disqualify the
    >activity as a sport ? Feel free to avoid answering the questions.
    
    I answered the last question specifically, the other 1 I think pretty
    clearly when I referred to the fact that curlers on tv don't look much
    like athletes to me, and compared them to snooker players.  To clarify
    still further, you can call curling or snooker "sports" if you like,
    but I don't think they belong in the Olympics.
    
    Is that clear enough, or should I try to find words of one syllable in
    which to express the idea?
    
    Cordially,
    
    -Stephen
    
    

    
    I, for one, would hesitate to go up to a sumo wrestler and
    tell him that he is too fat to be an athlete.
    
    Is sumo wrestling an Olympic sport? If so, it should be. One of
    the main training methods is to have a nap after a really large
    meal. Sounds like my type of sport.
    
    Pat

    This may be just a gut feeling, but I don't think sumo wrestling is an
    Olympic sport.
    
    Glenn

    Sooo, you are willing to admit that curling is a sport "if I like".
    Well I do like, so it is a sport. Now to the issue of entry into
    Olympic competition.
    
     What exactly are the grounds you are useing to disqualify it ? I am
    often accused of putting words in other peoples mouth, so in your own
    words, why is this SPORT not a valid competition at the Olympic level?
    
    							Derek.

    re .56
    
    I understand its not an Olympic sport, as most people couldn't stomach
    watching it.
    
    Gut

    CTHU26::S_BURRIDGE
    
    >>Cordially,
    >>-Stephen
    
     Is this some sort of insult? The word has more than four letters, so I
    don't think it is, but since it also has more than one silly-bull, I'm
    confoosed.
    
    							Derek.

    
    Typically, a sport is not a sport if you are too embarrassed to tell
    anyone you've partook in it. Ie bowling. I have bowled on a Friday
    night, 'cause the couple we were with wanted to. I failed to mention
    that "I went bowling on Friday" to my colleagues at work on the Monday.
    Starting to get the picture, Skip?

    I curled for two seasons, and not very well (but then is that not
    surprising with my crossed eyes!) and I have NO problem admitting
    to anyone that I curl, and I'm proud of it.
    
    One of the major problems with curling is that "it looks easy" ...
    like bowling "looks easy".  Reality out there on the ice or on
    the lanes is that it is NOT that easy.  But at the same time, I
    don't believe that bowling is on the same calibre as curling, in
    terms of degree of difficulty, amount of athletecism required etc.
    
    Yes, curling does seem to attract men with beer bellies ... or
    produce them, with after match drinking ... but one of the great
    things about curling is that it is a sport with a need for good
    skill; it is a team sport; and it can be played at some level by
    most people.  (I can't play hockey ... I can't play baseball ...
    I can't play football ... I can't play basketball at any level to
    make me a viable player ... where I can curl well enough!)
    
    Using your criteria for rejecting curling should cause the rejection
    of numerous other sporting activities.
    
    Stuart

    Curling is a very technically demanding sport, as much as golf is. And
    if you're sweeping, you will exert yourself quite a bit. And then when
    you've played the last end, you may find yourself 4 sheets to the wind.
    
    Glenn
    
    Enjoying this debate to the T.

    Ive never curled.  Tried it once in high school, thought it incredibly
    boring.
    
    Skip,
    
    My position on this issue is a simple one; I've re-stated it many
    times.  You seem to want me to keep putting it in different words, in
    hopes of finding some mis-statement you can pull apart.
    
    Sure, you can call curling, or snooker, a "sport" if you like.  TSN
    shows some pretty unlikely "sports."  However, the Olympics is meant to
    be a competition for world-class athletes.  To my mind curlers, and
    snooker players, don't fit this description, for reasons we have
    discussed (and you have admitted to be valid.)
    
    Simple enough, I think.
    
    Regards,
    
    -Stephen

    Snooker is nowhere near the same as curling. Curling is a team sport,
    it is also a very popular winter sport.

    Where is the athleticism in going down a toboggan run? Push your toboggan
    for 10m and jump in, and hang on. Wow. I find that incredibly boring to
    watch.
    
    Glenn

     Re .64
    >Where is the athleticism in going down a toboggan run? Push your toboggan
    >for 10m and jump in, and hang on. Wow. I find that incredibly boring to
    >watch.
    
    Obviously you've not seen the slow motion replays of that event. Those
    people are really quite diverse in their talents.
        
    Cola

    Nice of you to pop in.

    >>However, the Olympics is meant to be a competition for world-class
    >>athletes.
    
     So if Canada sends defending world champions, why are they not "World
    Class" athletes ?
    
    							Derek.

    Is the World Champion of snooker a "world class athlete?"
    
    Stephen

    Stephen & Derek, you two are in a class that's out of this world.
    
    Glenn
    
    Now, if Snooker was slated as an Olympic sport, which pool would Canada
    play in?

    A lot of people want bobsleigh and luge OUT of the Olympics.
    
    I guess 40+ years ago there wasn't enough world wide winter sports
    to add to the Olympics so toboggan was added.
    
    Andy

    CTHU26::S_BURRIDGE
    
    >>Is the World Champion of snooker a "world class athlete?"
    
    
     Hey !!! Question asking is my tactic, no fair. But since you asked,
    yes. How does this help your argument ?
    
    
    							Derek.

    Fine, we can end this.  You feel "sports" like snooker and curling
    belong in the Olympics, I don't.  I certainly hope your views aren't
    widely shared.
    
    Stephen

    Well as curling is an Olympic sport, it would appear my views are
    widely shared. Your hopes not withstanding.
    
    							Derek.

I think the comparison between snooker and curling is not a fair one.

Snooker is an individual sport.  A snooker player relies on visual acuity
and accurate ball pacement.  Nothing changes from one game to the next
except the pressure on the player.  Tables are consistent if of professional
quality, there is no difference playing on one table as another.  They
play with their own cues, which apart from a little chalk on the end and
the eventual wear down of the leather tip, it won't change during the
course of a game or match.

Curling is a team sport.  The curler relies on visual acuity and there
the similarities end.  The ice varies during the course of an end, let
alone during a game.  The ice varies during the course of ashot.  It is
the ability of a curler to deliver a stone that his team can "play" by
sweeping or not that makes the game ... not just the initial aim.  Once 
the snooker player hits his ball, that is all there is to it, if he has
read the table correctly  Snooker balls have very high degree of consis-
tency.  The eight curling stones vary ...  they are certainly similar,
but each stone has a personality you sometimes must take into account.
The ability of a team varies during the events due to physical strain,
let alone the emotional endurance required for snooker.  So the players
must take into account the physical tiredness too.

If you want to reject curling, find a more reasonable comparison non-Olympic
sport!

Stuart

    Snooker will never be an Olympic sport. There are currently no
    national snooker teams, there are lots of national curling teams
    however. 
    
    Once again, comparing snooker to curling is stupid.
    
    Glenn

    No way are they similar.
    
    It's like asking "What's the difference between an organge?" The answer
    is "It's like ice cream, it has no bones."
    
    Glenn

    It was never suggested that the two 'sports' were similar, just that
    one had as much business being in the Olympics as the other. A loser 
    sport is a loser sport! Bowling is another sport which was developed 
    by someone who obviously had no talent to allow talentless people
    to have something to do on Friday nights along with their talentless
    friends. Simple!
    
    

    And I discussed why Snooker shouldn't be and curling should!
    
    Why is discus throwing in th olympics, or hammer throwing or
    running or any sport come to that ? We could save a lot of money
    if we didn't put on such competitions, and help reduce the competetive
    nature of people which only serves to promote their aggressiveness.
    
    Then we could disband the NHL, NFL, NBA, and kids could go to school
    to study!  Boy what a novel idea1  And then there wouldn't be
    athletes getting clobbered, and give those reporters something to
    waste time money, electricity and trees on ...
    
    Boy we could revolutionize the world!
    
    It has me so excited I could cry!
    
    Staurt

    Oh and by the way ....
    
    would someone in Hull go and throw a curling rock at 
    
    Mr KAYEHOHEFFESSCOLONCOLONEMUNDERSCORECOATEH?
    
    He is developing a mean agressive attitude since I left town that
    MUST be stopped.
    
    Stuart :-)

	I trust that the people who want to exclude curling from the
	winter olympics are not the same ones who favour including
	target shooting in the summer olympics.

	And, if horse riding can get into the summer olympics,
	when is dog-sled racing going to get into the winter olympics?

	Tony

    

    As we speak, the Americans are busy trying to include Drive
    By shootings as an official Olympic sport. As for the dogs,
    well, we all know we can't teach a new dog old sports.

    Good point on dog-sled racing, a great winter sport indeed. 

    A horse rider is the same calibre of athlete as a snooker player
    though, so be careful what you say. A snooker player should be the
    measuring rod for the inclusion or exclusion of sports in the Olympics.

    Put a picture of a dogsled team next to a picture of a snooker player,
    you'll agree that the dogsled team should be allowed to compete and
    that the snooker player should be beaten within an inch of his life
    then have his nostrils slit, his leg cut off and his liver pulled out.

    Glenn

This discussion about what is and what isn't a sport and what should
and what shouldn't be a competition in the Olympic Games is
particularly interesting given the way some participants seem to
connote their own meanings to certain words used in the arguments
presented. 

From my trusty Funk and Wagnall's: 

  athlete n. 1. One trained in acts or feats of physical strength and
  agility, as in sports. w. In classical antiquity, a contestant in the
  public games. [ < L athleta < Gk. athletes  a contestant in the games
  < athleein  to contend for a prize < athlos  a contest < athlon  a
  prize] 

  Olympic games 1. In ancient Greece, athletic games, races, and
  contests in poetry held every four years at the plain of Olympia in
  Elis as a pan-Hellenic festival in honor of Zeus. 2. A modern
  international revival of the ancient athletic games, held every four
  years at some city chosen for the event. Also Olympian games,
  Olympics. 

  sport n. 1. That which amuses in general; diversion; pastime. 2. A
  particular game or play pursued for diversion; especially, an outdoor
  or athletic game, as baseball, football, track, tennis, swimming,
  etc. 3. A spirit of jesting or raillery. 4. That with which one
  sports; a toy; plaything. 5. Mockery; an object of derision: to make
  sport of someone; also, a laughingstock; butt. 6. Biol.  An animal or
  plant, or one of its parts, that exhibits sudden and spontaneous
  variation from the normal type; a mutation. 7. Informal  One
  interested in sports or games that involve gambling. 8. Informal  One
  who lives a fast, gay, or flashy life. 9. A person characterized by
  his ovservance of the rules of fair play, or by his ability to get
  along with others: a good sport. 10. Archaic  Amorous fondling;
  wanton dalliance. -- v. 1. To amuse oneself; play; frolic. 2. To
  participate in games. 3. To make sport or jest; trifle. 4. Biol.  To
  vary suddenly or spontaneously from the normal type; mutate. 5.
  Archaic & Dial.  To make love in a sportive or trifling manner.  --
  v.t. 6. Informal  To display or wear ostentatiously; show off. 7.
  Obs.  To amuse; divert.  -- adj.  Of, pertaining to, or fitted for
  sports; also, appropriate for informal wear: a sport coat: also
  sports. [Aphetic var. of DISPORT] 

Thus, I believe that we should perhaps not call all participants in
the roaring game (curling) athletes, but as long they recite poetry
while playing, I think that curling should be allowed as an Olympic
event. 

Tom,
The former Granite Junkie

    
       Someone's got time on their hands ;*)
    
    

    
    	I am glad Curling  is an Olympic sport in '96. It requires, more than
    <god> given athletic ability, Practice, conditioning, Practice,
    strategy, Practice, a close knit team....did I mention Practice?
    I really really like that it's a sport you can start as soon as you
    are strong enough to propel the rock and can continue until you die.
    
    I will concede that for those who like curling, they REALLY like it,
    and for those who don't, don't understand it at all.
    
    	                Candace, another granite-junky.
    
    
    	

96 is the Summer games in Atlanta, there won't be Curling there.

The 98 games in Nagano won't see curling either as it wasn't an official 
sport when Nagano was awarded the Olympics.

It will be an official sport in 2002 hopefully, in Quebec city if I can dig 
deep enough in my pockets to pay for them.

/Maroi

    
    
        I hear the downhill in Qu�bec is not presently up to 
    Olympic standards.  There seems to be some problem with the design
    of the run.  How do you think Qu�bec City will alleviate this problem
    to improve their standings for the upcomming bid?
    BTW, I heard this on the CTV News this weekend.
    
    Blair

Bring on the curling.

We need this "gentler" sport.

Come on guys, where else do you hear a person standing on ice screaming...


		HURRRRRRRRRYYYYY       HARRRRRDDD!!!!!!!!

(certainly not at D_STREET's place)

So where is that darn happy face key?  I have one of those new keyboards.
    

    Oh goody, more support to "draw" on.

    
    	My mistake (re the next Olympics including curling) was parrotting
    the local sports news, and my embarassment at not having these facts
    burned into the corner of my brain devoted to the roaring game!
    
    Candace,hang-dog at the hog line.

    
    I feel like jumping into this fray.....
    
     I tend to agree with Stephen, in that any Olympic sports should
    be definitely physically demanding along with a high degree of skill.
    
    I am not denying that curling, snooker, bowling , etc.......
    are not enjoyable activities to participate in, great social
    activites,but Olympic sports,
    puhleeese!!
    
    The problem with including all or any of the above is that we would be
    opening up the Olympics to all types of activities that claim to be 
    sports. I shudder to think that maybe even " golf" might be included
    in a future summer Games.
    The true spirit of the original Olympics must be maintained, and
    the Games kept small with select sports.
     A defined set of "Classic " sports should be chosen weighing heavily
    on both physical prowess and skill.
     It seems that this Olympics
    is already growing at too fast a pace with the inclusion of 
    certain "seemingly sedentary" activities.
    
    
     Aren't the participants in the Olpymics considered athletes,
    " Olympic caliber athletes". Then, how can anyone classify a
    "curling, snooker, bowling" type person in this category.
    
      I'm glad this note came up, because this has become a personal
    sore point for me, i.e. , inclusion of ridiculous demonstration sports
    in the Olympics at a frenzied pace.
    
    
    Norm

    Then they should take out the 2 man luge at least. Anyone who would
    consider it fun to go whizzing down a hill at 120 Kmh with a man lying
    on top of him should at least take up snooker as a hobby.

    Glenn

There were no Original Winter Olympic games.  There was no ice hockey, there
was no skiing, there was no figure skating, there was no luge, there was no
bob-sled in the original olympics, so the idea that the games should be
based on the original games is a load of codswallop.

If you do not believe that curling is not both physically demanding and
mentally challenging, then that is clear evidence that you have not played,
or you treat it much like golf, which you dislike anyway.  Just because you
don't like it is no reason to say that it shouldn't an olympic sport.
I dislike discus, javelin and hammer throwing ... they are boring ... let's
remove them from the Olympics ... running too ...

You imply that a curler cannot be considered in the same class of athletecism
as, say a hockey player.  Most curlers probably can't, but there are some
at the height of their game who probably are.  BUT curling is a game that
can be played at all ages, by all levels of player.  Most of us can't
even begin to play hockey, or figure skate, or ski-jump or bobsled or
luge.  It is a great thing that this is one sport that CAN be played with
minimal investment and at any level.  Even GOLF can't be said to do that.

The Olympics isn't about elitist sports ... it is about athletes and sportsmen
and women in the peak of their career showing their ability to the world.
And Curling belongs there just as luge or bob-sledding.

Stuart

    
    
         An Idea!   Watersliding for the Summer Olympics!
                    ------------
    
    

    
    
    Ok,Ok!!  Curling can stay.
    But snow shovelling has got to go, especially the
    light , fluffy snow shovelling competition.
    
    I mean if we're going to have snow shovelling, it should be
    the heavy, damp type , and you must use a wide shovel
    and you must have 7ft. snowbanks on either side of the
    driveway, er, track .......
    
    

	re .91

>    The true spirit of the original Olympics must be maintained, and
>    the Games kept small with select sports.

	The original Olympic sports were skills necessary for the
	successful practice of war in ancient Greece - throwing the javelin
	or the war discus, etc.

	The Winter Olympic biathlon seems a logical development of the idea.
	What other activities should be admitted on this basis?

	Tony

    Well there you are ... 
    
    Curling makes absolute sense ...
    
    How to bowl over your enemies by sliding 40 lb hunks of granite
    at him to knock him off his feet!
    
    Stuart :-)

    It would be nice to see Canada sweep the curling medals in '98.
    
    
    Glenn

    
    
        Does anyone have any further information on Qu�bec City's
    problem I was referring to in note .87?
    
    
    Blair

	Olympic shoveling? Come now people, the next thing you
	know they'll be adding Codswallop loading to the games.

	Charlie

    
    Now, how about javelin *catching*?
    
    
    A true spectator sport...
    
    Pat

    If the sportperson can be wrapped in spandex, then it's an olympic
    sport.  That's why baseball and curling will never make it in the
    olympics (fat guts don't look good in spandex).  Hockey would be more
    beleivable as an olympic sport if the padding was worn OVER the spandex
    suit.  
    
    Jean ;-)
    

    
    re .102
    
    >sport.  That's why baseball and curling will never make it in the 
    >olympics
    
    BAD NEWS!
    
    Baseball is an Olympic sport.  It was added at the '84 games in Los
    Angeles.
    

    Javelin catching will never be accepted because people poke fun at it
    all the time. Looks like fun though, maybe I'll take a stab at it one
    day....
    
    Glenn

    
    Of course, your reply's trajectory hits the bullseye, unlike
    others who fly off on tangents.  Concise and to the point. Someone
    has to put a stick in the ground sometime, and stand by it.
    
    Pat

    Well, javelin catchers have been getting shafted by the IOC for years.
    
    Glenn

    I prefer discus catching personally.

    Oh Stuart, don't be so silly. Everybody knows there's no such thing as
    discus catching. If you're going to be silly, please do it in the
    logging note. The author of it is a remarkably silly man.

    ;-)

>    Oh Stuart, don't be so silly. Everybody knows there's no such thing as
>    discus catching. If you're going to be silly, please do it in the
>    logging note. The author of it is a remarkably silly man.


Actually, you just reminded me of my other favourite sport ... Catching
the Caber ... Tossing it is just boring ... Catching it takes skill!

Stuart :-)

    POLAR::RICHARDSON
    
    >>The author of it is a remarkably silly man
    
    
     Do we need a "Kettle calling the Pot black" note in here ???
    
    							Derek.

    Sounds like a jolly good idea.

    Perhaps a kettle catching note is in order as well.

    Sincerely,

    POLAR::RICHARDSON, in a white wine sauce with shallots mushrooms and garlic