Conference kaosws::canada

    Well, I guess that's the price of dignity.
    
    Glenn

    As much I hate to see our military bled dry by politicians who
    apparently forget the brutal lesson of 1939, the helicopters must be
    cancelled WITHOUT any compensation given to the loosing parties (read
    Quebec's Paramax et. al).  It's a lot of money for something which is
    really of questionable use.
    
    Oh yeah, the deficit will grow before it falls, especially when the
    Liberal spending bonanza starts to hit the books.  People, people,
    people, take the hit now so that we can benefit in the future!
    
    Doug

    I believe the only way out is to can the concept of universality.
    Healthcare is not negotiable. But Old age pensions, baby bonus and any
    other "universal" programs should be re-thought. I don't think people
    over $40K a year need the baby bonus, and same for retired people with
    enough income not needing Canada pension. The time has come to smell
    the coffee, but not throw out the baby with the bath water.
    
    
    							Derek.

Which era are you living in Derek ?  The Baby Bonus no longer exists and
hasn't been universal for several years in that it was taxed back.  Now
it is a tax credit, combining it with what was the dependant tax deduction.
But even so, above a certain income and you don't get any!

And since when is $40K a reasonable limit for a family with kids ?  Where
did you pull this figure out of the hat.  Let me assure you that at $40K
with 3 kids you would have a hard time making ends meet on salary alone.

Stuart

Derek,

Baby bonus has already been re-thought.  I don't get it and hever have for that 
matter.  I believe low-income families now get it but get a bit more that everyone 
used to get.

Canada Pension is something the working people contribute to.  There's a deduction on 
the pay check.  As far as I know, when you retire, you get something according to what 
you put in it during the working years.  If the government is going to cut that then 
they'll owe something to millions of Canadians who've already contributed.

Old age pension, as far as I know, has a claw back, based on a salary of $50,000.  
With time, the government will be a saving with this because the $50,000 is not 
indexed.

Drop in the bucket!

$40B is a lot of money.  Where do we cut?

I say, do what BP did with Digital and start cutting the fat out of the Pubic Service.
Consolidate services.  Lay off TENS OF THOUSANDS if they have the courage.  I don't 
think they do.  Maybe Reform would.

    

    I think yo'all have failed to see Dereks social comment. When Derek
    was referring to the baby bonus, he was referring to the 6.5 million
    people who are getting an average of $553.00 per person, making a
    total of 3.6 Billion. All for just a little whining at election
    time.;^)
    
    
    

    Let's look at this another way ...  Canadians have been taxed too
    much and a lucky few, either through child tax credits/baby bonus, 
    or through Old Age Security (not the CPP) are lucky enough to get
    a small refund of their having been over-taxed.
    
    So, is this sour grapes that you aren't getting YOUR share ?
    
    Stuart

    We can bitch about the debt all we want ... the fact is that the
    Liberals are in power and the debt is going to get MUCH worse.
    
    JC is not going to make any attempt to reduce the deficit much less
    the debt, until the current economic sistuation changes.
    
    Unfortunately for Canada JC has not yet realized that a good portion
    of why we are in the current economic sitiation is the amount of
    our taxes needed to service the debt.
    
    JC will do for Canada what Bob has done for Ontario.
    
    
    
    Just my bitter view
    
    Brian V
    
     

    Well, 9 years of PC Government got us into this mess, so it'll take
    more than 4-5 years of Chretien and the Liberals to fix.  Interesting
    how Trudeau is blamed for laying the foundation of debt, yet when he
    left office the national debt averaged 35% of GNP, and now it's 60%.
    
    The only good thing the PC party ever did was Free Trade.  Whether we
    like it or not, and whether we lose some blue collar jobs to it,
    without free trade and NAFTA, we're sunk globally.
    
    I hope never to see another PC government in my lifetime!
    
    JMHO,
    Otto.

    1. Stuart, if one cannot afford children, one should not have them. Why
       should the Canadian tax payer contribute ? As for the TAX BACK plan.
       Only the government can see giving out money, then taxing it back as
       a way to "save" money. I get MY share by living in the country, and
       if I don't need the entitlement, I don't want to bankrupt the
       country just so that I can "get mine" back. If you think Canadians
       are so over taxed, move. (oh yeah, you already did that)
    
    2. Mario, may be I meant Social Security. I believe it is not dependant
       on contributions during the working years (except for the taxes we
       pay of course). The public service, as nice a target as they appear
       to be, will not be able to get us out of this by being slashed. Now
       the money these people spend is another issue !!
    
    3. To All, if entitlements are the largest part of the deficit, which
       should take a hit ? I suggest I don't want to pay for other peoples
       babies, or to fatten the retirement of people who are well off. what
       are YOUR sacred cows that you would be willing to give up ? Mario at
       least, is willing to declare his preference.
    
    							Derek
    						
    
    							Derek.

>    1. Stuart, if one cannot afford children, one should not have them. Why
>       should the Canadian tax payer contribute ? As for the TAX BACK plan.
>       Only the government can see giving out money, then taxing it back as
>       a way to "save" money. I get MY share by living in the country, and
>       if I don't need the entitlement, I don't want to bankrupt the
>       country just so that I can "get mine" back. If you think Canadians
>       are so over taxed, move. (oh yeah, you already did that)

The crazy thing is Derek, I may have moved my body, but for a couple of years
Revenue Canada still has dabs on me .... They STILL want a share until I can
prove to them I am here to stay!  So, I'll still be coughing up for people
up there to have children etc.

Now, as to your argument about not being able to afford children ...  Two
flaws ... the first being that if everybody waited until they could afford
children, then more people wouldn't have children.  Thereupon the population
would stagnate, and there would be too few taxpayers available to pay for
even half the services we have today.

In terms of the baby bonus, the principle of giving it then taxing it back
has gone ... you are now given based on last year's income so the ridiculous
overhead of the left hand giving and the right hand taking it back is
gone.

The deficit is the cost of servicing our accumulated debt and then some now.
The answer is simple ... go bankrupt ... viz devalue the currency ...

Stuart

    Stuart:
    
     So you suggest a lower dollar ? Would that not make it harder to pay
    back the debt which in the hands of other countries more than in
    Canadian hands ?
    
    
    							Derek.

    Otto, the PC government did not get us into this mess, they simply
    continued the tradition of the previous Liberal Governments.  Just 
    bigger numbers as the mess grew.
    
    How do you fill the $600B hole we are paying interest on (or what ever
    the number is)?  The $40B is just another few scoops out.
    
    I don't believe our social services are to blame.  To me it's used as
    smoke and mirrors to hide the truth and raise taxes.  It's poor
    management.  Our social traditions were here long before the National
    debt.
    
    The PC government was a national disgrace and it got what it deserved. 
    The mighty have fallen but unless they rebuild, what other party
    represents national interests and can be an effective opposition to
    keep the Liberals in check?  Not the Reform or the Bloc.  
    
    Unless you expect a short life span, I think they'll be back.

    Lower dollar = increases in a) investment interest in Canadian
    Enterprises b) competativeness of export based businesses c) canadian
    spending at home rather than abroad. This translates into more tax
    revenue and lower unemployment which reduces the current operating
    deficit. Also tends to allow inflation to rise slightly.

Just announced today by Paul Martin:  deficit is $4.5B

One big problem that I see now is the increase in underground economy.  
Suppliers are not charging GST for services and tend to lower their prices 
as a result.  The consumer is encouraged to play along.  This problem is a 
direct result of the GST.

I'm sure there is many $B of federal revenue (probably a substantial amount 
of Quebec provincial revenue too) there that the government is not getting. 
They have to crack down strictly and severely.  If they don't have the 
courage to do that then they should re-consider the GST ASAP.

The government created the problem in the 1st place and now has to fix it.

/Mario

    Mario:
    
     From what I have heard, the yearly deficit would be almost eliminated
    if the underground economy were taxed. Just look a cigaretts as an
    example. I saw a show recently that said Canadians are becomming a country
    of tax evaders. If you find a way around a tax, your friends will applaud.
    If the trend continues, there will be no way for the government to
    collect the taxes needed. They are pushing us too far, IMHO.
    
    
    							Derek.

    Interesting article in Sunday's Ottawa Citizen.
    
    The Canadian Senate sat for a total of 43 days last year.
    
    The Senate reporters, those who transcribe the proceedings in the
    Senate for the official record Hansard are paid annual salaries of $60k
    per year. If these guys were paid for what they worked, they averaged 
    a whopping $6,600/week. There are a dozen full time Senate reporters.
    
    To make matters worse, because their is so little work for them to do
    in the Senate, these guys rent themselves out to private 
    firms which have gov't contracts, at a cost of approx $300/day - paid 
    by you & I - Joe Taxpayer.
    
    One of the reporters was quoted " it's all a double-dipping windfall
    which has been quietly condoned for years as part of the cozy old-boys
    club in the Senate. Taxpayers are being ripped off. But no one in the
    Senate cares - I once worked for 11 days and got paid for the whole
    year. The rest of the time we made a fortune freelancing to other gov't
    agencies like the Federal Court. They (Senate administrators) just told
    me to keep a low profile and keep my mouth shut"
    
    Want to eliminate some debt - start with the Senate and all it
    represents in Canada - patronage, financial mismangement,
    cash-for-life.
    
    Terry
    
    The article goes on to say that the Senate reporters on average work for 
    only 100 days per year, with last year being low due to the election.
    
    

    Our new Finance Minister, Paul Martin, addressed the country yesterday
    on our current financial status.
    
    Doesn't look good - every Canadian is carrying around a debt load of 
    $17,000 and growing. Deficit is now estimated at $46 billion.
    
    Martin says that the Liberals must take responsibility for 
    correcting the current financial mess and forget about finger pointing
    as too who is to blame. (As if we don't know who is to blame)
    
    Says the government must begin to manage it's services more efficiently
    and that social programs don't have to be cut, but need to be managed
    properly and be brought into the 90's. Many programs are a product of
    the 60's and earlier and may now be out of touch with the 90's.
    
    Also heard that roughly 8% of our economy is an underground economy,
    paying no taxes or avoiding as many taxes as is possible. The lost
    revenue on contraband cigarettes was startling. (I forget the actual
    numbers) as was the estimated loss in the GST.
    Canadians it seems have found a nice way to stage a tax revolt. 
    
    Terry

Underground economy lost revenue:  $4.4B - $6.6B

Tax returns more than anticipated:  $1.5B

In my opinion the government is allowing too much RRSP contributions.  I 
realize if they cut down that would not allow us to same so much on tax but 
then this to me was a perk that was added a few years ago that we didn't 
need.  Now that we have it, if the gov't tries to remove it, everyone will 
cry foul.

/Mario

	I do not think that RRSP's have anything to do with the debt.

	When many people out there retire, they are going to wish to
	God that they had put more [or even something in some cases]
	into RRSP's. When we are old and grey Mario, Digital will
	not have the money to give us and neither will the government.

	Also take into account that the dollar we put away today will
	probably be worth 10 cents when we retire...

	Charlie

>        When many people out there retire, they are going to wish to
>        God that they had put more [or even something in some cases]
>        into RRSP's. When we are old and grey Mario, Digital will
>        not have the money to give us and neither will the government.

	Digital will because they're bound by their benefit package.
	The government will because of the CPP/QPP money you and I put
	away every pay cheque.  You can forget about the Old Age Security
	cheque though.  Days are numbered for that one.

>        Also take into account that the dollar we put away today will
>        probably be worth 10 cents when we retire...

	The purchasing power of the dollar itself will be worth 10 cents.  
	But if it grows at a rate higher than inflation tax free, then you 
	gain, not lose.

    Mario:
    
     You have an interesting idea there. Stop giving people loopholes to
    avoid paying taxes. Let's be real here and admit that only the less
    finacially challenged can take advantage of it anyway, so they truely
    can afford to pay their share. But I think there would be a larger
    return if ALL profit making companies had to pay tax. As it stands many
    rich Canadians and Profitable companies pay ZERO tax, because of
    loopholes, and the having the money to take advantage of them.
    
    
    							Derek.

�	Digital will because they're bound by their benefit package.
�	The government will because of the CPP/QPP money you and I put
�	away every pay cheque.  You can forget about the Old Age Security
�	cheque though.  Days are numbered for that one.

	Sorry, but Digital and the Government are not bound by anything.
	The only reason retirement is affordable right now is because
	the monies extracted from the working population easily supports
	those who are retired.

	When I am 65, the tables will be turned and there will not be
	enough of a working poopulation to support the retired population.

	This translates to a simple answer. Those who are retired in the
	future had better have nice sum of money stashed away because no
	one else will be able to support them.

	This is why the government pushes RRSP's, it allows the population
	to create their own income for their retirement years, they realize
	that handouts are going to become harder and harder to afford.

�	The purchasing power of the dollar itself will be worth 10 cents.  
�	But if it grows at a rate higher than inflation tax free, then you 
�	gain, not lose.

	Yes of course you gain slightly but this is minimal. In order for
	compound interest and consistant paying into an RRSP to translate
	into a comfortable living when one retires then the levels the
	Government has set for RRSP contributions is far from ridiculous.

	Charlie

Charlie,

If you need a lesson on retirement planning let me know.  I can recommend 
you one or two good companies to deal with.  Then again, it maybe it's too 
late for you to start now, I don't know how old you are.  ;-)

/Mario

    The fact is, government pension tampering is already being discussed
    within the main political parties of this country. When I'm 65, there
    will be no government pension money heading my way, that I am sure of.
    I wish I could opt out of the CPP and put that money away.
    
    Glenn

Do people here know the difference between CPP and Old Age persion??

Just curious.

/Mario

    
    

?? Do people here know the difference between CPP and Old Age persion??
    
    
    	The spelling?

There are two plans ...

Old Age Security

and

Canada/Quebec Pension Plan


The "Old Age Pension" is one or the other or both depending on who you are
talking to ... quite honestly ... For those who have been unable to
contribute to CPP, OAP is just Old Age Security ... for those who contribute
to CPP, OAS probably means very little in$ value, so OAP is CPP.

Confused ... wait till they give these new names to remove the age stigma ...

Stuart

Old Age PeNsion, everyone gets once they turn 65.

CPP, you get an amount according to what you contributed throughout your
working life.  You can start getting it when you turn 55 but it's a 
lesser amount.

If anything may be in jeopardy in the forseeable future, I'd say it would
be OAP since it's universal.

CPP apparently has no funds to sustain the on-going payments.  Government has 
to go to *other funds* to get the extra money.  QPP (Quebec version of CPP) 
on the other hand has plenty of funds (read $Billions) to sustain the load.

/Mario

    As an aside I just yesterday heard rumor to the fact that the $100,000
    tax free capital gains option is quietly being removed by the
    government.  This is a method to increase tax revinue that they have
    let slide.  Has anyone else heard such a rumor?
     

    re.-1 from TROOA::DHODGSON
    
    Dan, remind me: until when did I buy in the coffee fund ? 
    Your worrying about the capital gain tax exemption made me wonder if
    there is more to that coffee fund than one would think.
    Just thinking...

    Louis
    You still owe for 2 weeks
    dan

    re. -1
    Did you notice I barely touched the stuff recently ?