Conference kaosws::canada

    They were only kidding about using subs to find mines at sea, 
    
    the navy is really going to use them to find all those lost fish off
    the east coast. 
    
    Terry

    I thought they were going to use them to scare all of thefish off
    the Canadian East Coast down further south so that we can meet our
    obligations under free-trade. :-)
    
    sb
    

    Whether this is wasteful spending or not is a matter of opinion.
    
    If the subs were a) made in Canada and b) had Canadian content, then
    they would be less wasteful than simply giving away UI and welfare
    to laid off shipyard workers.
    
    In an obtuse way, it is better for the government to have employees
    than it is to give them UI or welfare.  When they are working, they are 
    a) paying taxes and b) purchasing at home because they can afford to
    buy things, which stimulates the economy.
    
    So, while wasteful is a matter of opinion, it isn't quite as ridiculous
    as it first looks.
    
    If the subs are made offshore, then the subs themselves don't really
    benefit Canadians except in keeping people in the armed forces, which
    qualifies under my arguments above.
    
    A lot of what is classed as wasteful is only wasteful in the eyes of
    some beholders!
    
    Stuart

    Re:  Building subs and employing shipyard workers beats UI
    
    Well if its just a matter of let's find a way to spend money more
    usefully than UI, I'd be happy to let the govt build me a new house,
    employing many idle construction workers.  I'd feel more benefit than
    subs for shipyard workers.
    
    8-)

re .-1

you're right, it is a matter of how and where it's spent.  But surely
you cannot expect a government to directly assist an individual by
building him a house?

There are certainly plenty of make work projcts that would do the country
better than subs ... but in terms of subs or nothing ... subs are probably
better.

Stuart

    I always tought people's money was for the benefit of people.  
    Example: Build a bridge to cross a river, benefits are to the people on
    both sides, PLUS as a bonus, you get people from further away coming to
    your locality, which brings better living.  The bridge gets used
    because there was a NEED for one. 
    
    Is there a real NEED for submarines?
    
    Consider the Hibernia project for which we will pay billions, the
    offshore rigs are going to be built in Korea!!!!  nice way to help the
    taxpayers isn't it.
    
    Jean
    
    

    
    
    
 @   Consider the Hibernia project for which we will pay billions, the
 @   offshore rigs are going to be built in Korea!!!!  nice way to help the
 @   taxpayers isn't it.
    
    
    
    	That's only because they couldn't find a port in Quebec large
    enough for the project. ;^)

    Ok so building subs and building me a house are extreme opposites, but
    there are clearly better ways to spend limited resources than to keep
    our shipyards busy building subs.
    
    We can argue alot as to whether we need to spend it on the military at
    all (yikes those choppers come to mind!!!!), or whether we need to
    spend it at all.   However, spending for spendings sake when we have
    huge deficits and many competing demands seems silly.

    My brother in law came to visit yesterday, he works for the federal
    governement (I don't think ANY level is different FWIW).  Every year at
    the end of march, the "boss" goes on a buying binge to make sure he
    spends ALL the money he was allocated.  My in law now has one of those
    pocket computers, in a drawer because he never uses it.  He told me
    they buy all kinds of things they do not use just to make sure their
    budget is not cut the next year.  
    
    
    All on credit (deficit)
    
    Jean
    

    
    
  :-)  spends ALL the money he was allocated.  My in law now has one of those
  :-)  pocket computers, in a drawer because he never uses it.  He told me
    
    
    	It aint that bad, Jeanny, I've got a drawer at work I hardly
    use either. 
    
    	They're coming to take it away...Oh my
    	They're coming to take it away...Oh my
    

    Jean, I am truly honored to be mentioned in your base note... I think
    
    Just so happens the mines underground tend to explode as well.
    
    I'm really not sure what you're driving at, but I would like to figure
    out a way to twist it all into a Grand Canal topic....
    
    Sincerely,
    
    Mr. Flummery

    Jean, thats why Q3 sales in the NCD always looks so good.  They work
    round the clock at the end of March picking up P.O.'s.
    
    Any sales rep could write a book about that stuff!
                                                          

    If we had a balanced budget, I wouldn't mind so much, but that's not
    the case.
    
    Jean
    
    At least the Grand Canal didn't cost us anything so far.
    
    

>   At least the Grand Canal didn't cost us anything so far.

	It cost us our sanity....

    
    Speak for yourself, Mr. Flummery. There are those that lost it
    before the G.C. was conceived, along with their virginity.
    
    

I'll buy that.

    Speaking of loosing your virginity, read last night's newspaper.
    
    Seemed like Mulrooney and wife spent $1/2M his last year in office as
    compared to (can't remember the exact numbers but they are all under
    $100K) $60-$75K usually spent.
    
    How much d**m booze can that guy drink!  Pork barrel, he bought the
    farm!

	Thats alot of pudding, wouldn't you say Mr. Flummery?

	Drivally yours,

	Mr. Galimatias

    Thank you very much ladies and gentlemen for dialing up this note.

    We intend to provide you will high quality entertainment.

    As for the pudding, I hope it was chocolate. that would be, ah, 166 000
    6 packs of Laura Secord pudding. Wow! Try an fit that into your child's
    napsack before school.

    Sincerely,

    Mr. Flummery

	Mr. Flummery,

	?dialing into the note, what are you saying?

	I hope this is not another '976' type note as my cost center
	was recently charged $500 for my participation in the 'sex'
	notes file. Unbeknownst to myselfishness, that whole conference
	is a '976' type conference.

	Unveraciously yours,

	Mr. Galimatias

	re: Choklit puddn'

	Of course it was choklit, my brother from the enclave, is there
	any other kind?

    Sorry, but what is so surprising about having to spend your budget
    before year end or losing it?   Yes I know it's not the kind of
    behaviour we'd like to see in our public officials, but the way the
    game is played in gov't (and many private organizations) is if you're
    good at spending your money wisely and have some leftover at the end of
    the year, you don't get to carry it over to the next year.  You lose it
    and in all likelihood you'll also get your new budget reduced "since
    you obviously don't need as much money as you got last year!"
    
    So until the system rewards managers for coming in under budget rather
    than penalizing them, don't expect this behaviour to change.

    Heard on the news today.
    
    $11,000 to run a poll in Ottawa to know how the christmass lights look
    $300,000 to buy video casettes to tell us how our taxes are spent.
    $158,000,000 to pay the minister's pensions.
    $?? (didn't hear the amount) to study the growth of garlic in
    Indonesia.
    
    Jean 
    
    Did you know that if Benoit Bouchard and Joe Clark both live to 75
    years old, their pensions will amount to 3 and 4 million each!
    
    

    
    	Study the growth of garlic in Indonesia???  Geez, that's a big
    payback!!  It's suppose to help with long term heart problems!  Double
    the $$$'s for that one!!
    
    KMP

    Over $15,000,000 for the governor general, his suite, his residences...
    of which $800,000 is to design and make medal awarded to (no doubt)
    meriting people.
    
    Jean
    

        RE:-1

        Not unlike marble toilets in Quebec City for provincial ministers. But
        you go right ahead and convince yourself about how Quebec "separatist"
        politicians really give a flying fig for you and how they must be more
        ethical than their federalist counterparts.

        Ben

    re .24 
    
    Could this be one of the reasons why our friends "Down Under" in
    Australia are thinking about becoming a Republic and dropping the
    monarchy. 
    
    The Governor General has become nothing more than a figure head and is
    an expense that should be looked at in Canada. Add on all the
    Lieutenant Governors expenses it all adds up to a lot of pomp and
    pagentry just to represent the queen.
    
    A whole other topic....
    Terry

    Re .25
    
    1- Marble toilets were "probably" bought when we had money, I did not
    check the minister's bathrooms in Ottawa, but I'm sure they are
    decorated just as outlandishly, and probably the same holds true to all
    provincial legislatures in all the other provinces where parliaments
    convene in rather old buildings.  In other words that's the way they
    were built in the old days.  The longevety (sp?) of these sanitary
    installations is a tribute to the early builders and to the wise choice
    these leaders HAD.
    
    2- I don't think a "federalist" politician has any more care or ethic
    (proven time and time again) than you care to give to a "separatist"
    politician (still virgins on parliament hill for the most part).
    
    Jean
    

    > The longevety (sp?) of these sanitary installations is a tribute to the 
    > early builders and to the wise choice these leaders HAD.

	HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

	That's a really good one Jean. You did mean that as a joke didn't you?
	
    > I don't think a "federalist" politician has any more care or ethic
    > (proven time and time again) than you care to give to a "separatist"
    > politician (still virgins on parliament hill for the most part).

	I never said that they did and the opposite is definitely not the
	case. As for the parliamentary non-virgins such as Bouchard, we 
	KNOW what kind of ethical stock they come from. IE: Let's not
	forget their unwillingness to resign their seats in parliament
	before having done enough time to qualify for juicy pensions.

	Ben

    As Kim said (she SHOULD know) the noise you hear are the pigs lining up
    for the trough, talking about the liberals getting a majority in the
    next election.  We have already seen the tories miss a good opportunity
    to cancell the (much talked about) helicopters, probably to grease up
    their buddies.  The airport scandal in Toronto is enough to make you
    beleive the liberals and the conservatives eat from the same plate,
    that's why I'd rather cast my vote to anyone except those two parties,
    and I think we should all do the same for the sake of our future.
    
    Toilets are VERY serious stuff (n'est-ce-pas Glenn), maybe the
    politicians are so full of it they never use them thereby keeping the
    toilets like new for eons.  There has to be SOME good in a politician
    wouldn't you say?
    
    Jean

    Last week I was on training, our class was all DECcies except one lady
    from the Ontario ministry of labour.  The training course was a one day
    seminar on WNT.  This lady had previously taken NUMEROUS courses from
    us, she told me she had spent over $17,000 on training during the last
    year, all on computer hardware and software.  Some examples of the
    training she received: Novell Netware, PC hardware...
    
    The day she was on my course, she slept half the day and "tried" to
    talk to me the rest of the time, she even left early because she had an
    important school reunion.  She told me (when she was awake) that she
    abhorred computers and would rather write on paper, she also told me
    the only reason she took these training courses was that she was mad at
    the governement for cutting them some days of work and that they would
    not get any increases in pay.
    
    I sure HOPE all civil servants are NOT like that one!
    
    Jean
    

    Sounds like she was civil, but just a little tired. I applaud all such
    manifestations of those who toil within the public trust. If not for
    they, then what would we strivest for? Alertness in our toil in the
    private sector? Heaven forbid. 
    
    Glenn

Has anyone in or outside Quebec heard of the Quebec government version of 
Club Med?

It's apparently a place where Quebec public service employees go to when 
they've been *layed off*, when their jobs have been considered redundant.  
They only qualify for this perk after 2 years of seniority.  It's a nice 
place with offices where they go everyday - and do nothing - to wait until a 
job that suits their skills is available.  Some of the spend many months 
there doing NOTHING and getting FULL pay.

The Quebec government has a law that says that any employee with 2 years of 
service is guaranteed his/her job.  They are put in Club Med with full pay 
and benefits until something becomes available for them.  This law was put in 
place 30 years ago.  Maybe the government should look into it's own backyard 
and get it's own act in order before they start cutting social benefits.

How much is this costing Quebec tax payers?

/Mario

    
    On the other hand , a sleeping public servant is not messing with
    your life.
    
    FWIW count your blessings.
    
    Speaking of wasteful spending, how do you like your tax dollars
    spent on keeping Buffalo newspapers out of Canada ? (eg Carla
    Teale's Story) Seems the border guards are quite zealously 
    stripping returning Canadians of information gathered while
    outside the country. Sounds quite Orwellian to me. Poor little
    sheep, can't be trusted with what they read.
    
    Pat

    Heard on CBC radio news (from a CTV program the night before)
    
    $100,000 in an embassy for PERSONAL phone calls
    $50,000 for liquor and cigarettes in an embassy with no accounts as
            to who or where the booze and fags went.
    
    From a newspaper clipping of La presse (late november)
     
    The leader of the opposition gets $64,400 of salary + $49,100 for being
    the leader of the opposition + $21,300 non taxable allocation.
    
    The parliamentary leader of the official opposition also gets a bonus
    of $23,800, the whip $13,200 and his aide $7,500.
    
    The leaders of the other parties with more than 12 elected members gets
    a $29,500 bonus (+ salary and + allocation), their whips and aide
    receive $10,100 and $7,500 respectively.
    
    Before the elections, Jean Chr�tien and Audrey McLaughlin were
    receiving $31,400 each for their private chauffeurs.
    
    Stornoway, the official residence of the leader of the opposition cost
    US $126,400 last year (why not just buy a new house each year and
    raffle it off?).
    
    Jean
    

    An area of government spending can be reduced by the voting population
    of Canada.  Every election citizens could refuse to vote for anyone
    running for re-election.  After a single term in office, these
    honourable folks would not be eligible for pension.  After a number
    of years the pension pay out will be to a realistic amount.  My
    opinion anyway.
    

    re -.1
    
    Did you know that a representative voted out of office gets six months
    of salary + benefits + office space for 6 months.  True, this is less
    than a lifetime pension, but it is still a waste of OUR money.
    
    Jean
    

    These kinda expenses are nickel and dime problems, and, a lot of these
    are really unavoidable. 31K for a chauffeur? Big deal. At least the
    chauffeur is doing something and paying taxes. Embassy's have all kinds
    of weird expenses, it's part of international relations. Also, we
    should reward people who want to represent us in government. I would
    say most MP's work very hard and endure a lot of stress during their
    tenure. Even so, paying for these people is still nickel and dime
    stuff.

    If we as Canadians want to cut expenses, we've got to start looking at
    the UIC and welfare systems and start tightening them. approx.55% of our tax
    dollars goes towards our social programs and 12% goes towards the
    federal payroll (of which 1/3 comes back). Hey, let's start pulling the
    beam out of our eye before we try to start picking out the speck in the
    civil servant's or politicians eye.

    Well, now I've done it.

    Happy New Year!

    Glenn

    Glen, are you serious?????   What's going on????  WWhat did you eat or
    drink to lay down those lines????
    
    Jean

    I drank one Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster too many I guess. And for that
    I am deeply sorry. It will never happen again unless I find myself on
    Stavromula Beta.
    
    Sincerely,
    
    Arthur Dent