Conference kaosws::canada

    Americans are too noisy and they have too many guns.
    
    Did you know that in the state of Texas there are 4 firearms for every
    man woman and child?
    
    That means there are more guns in Texas than there are rats.....
    
    And another thing, they have to many beautiful 4 lane highways all over
    the place! Why don't they just build a canal from coast to coast and
    be done with it?
    
    Glenn

    
    >> That means there are more guns in Texas than there are rats.....
    
    Does this mean there are more rats in Canada than there are guns?
    
    >> And another thing, they have to many beautiful 4 lane highways all over
    >> the place! Why don't they just build a canal from coast to coast and
    >> be done with it?
    
    How else would we get all the Canadian's from Ottawa to Florida in
    January and February ??
    
    ...Mike :-)

�    How else would we get all the Canadian's from Ottawa to Florida in
�    January and February ??

	We could float down the canal...but no, we have to drive...

	Charlie

    As you all know, I'm from Qu�bec and I've worked with many Qu�becois,
    English Canadians, Americans, and Canadians from England.
    
    Whenever Qu�becers tell me that English Canadians are similar to
    Americans, I have to laugh.  Apart from the fact that they speak the
    same language, I find English Canadians and Americans are worlds apart!
    
    I find that English Canadians are much more like the British when you
    scratch below the surface.  Particularly when one examines basic values and
    issues like gun control, socialized medicine, taxes, state vs.
    religion, etc., I find more similarities between English Canada and
    England than I find between English Canada and the US of A.
    
    Anyone else feel the same way?
                                                              
    Normand

    >>> English Canadians and Americans are worlds apart!
    
    Here's one Yanks views on the issues you pointed to.
    
    Gun Control - most Yanks are infavor of it but the NRA has a powerful
    lobby in Washington that has blocked all attempts thru mis-information.
    
    Socialized Medicine - We don't want what you have but we don't want 
    what we have either. The Con's of your system speak louder down here
    than the Pro's. We are going down the tubes (unless your an MD or LLB)
    and something will be done......eventually.
    
    Taxes - we are getting fed up with the concept that more Gov't money is
    the solution to every problem.  Nobody represents the majority of the
    people. Only the minority groups are getting represented. Cut spending
    first. If you extrapilate (sp?) taxes as a % of GNP in 1900 to now,
    where will this take us by 2100 if we're on the same curve. Nobody
    looks at that. Change has to happen soon.
    
    State vs Religion - Separation is what we are founded on. It used to
    be separation and cooperation but some radicals have ruined that. 
    Most of the worlds problems exist in the states that have not separated
    the two.
    
    Now, how are we so different ?????
    
    

    I've heard what Americans have heard about the cons of our health care 
    system are and they are fiction.
    
    Glenn
    

    >> English Canadians are more like the British
    
     I'll go for that. Considering we didn't join in on the revolution,
    accepted many loyalists after the war, and rejected two attempts to
    "liberate" us from England by the United States, I would say our ties
    were initially much stronger with England. Over the years we have been
    influenced by American culture, but the framework of the culture is
    from England and the Land it's self, not America.
    
     and we have the Queen on our money, not American presidents.
    				
    						Derek.		

re: .6, Glenn

>    I've heard what Americans have heard about the cons of our health care 
>    system are and they are fiction.

The major "con" that I've heard has to do with the fact that many Canadians
simply can't get certain procedures performed due to insufficient specialized
facilities and practitioners. The two examples I specifically remember having
been cited were MRI's and various cardiac procedures. The report I recall
indicated that many Canadians are put in a position that the only way they
can avail themselves of these procedures is to come to the States and pay for
them.

Is this inaccurate? What other "cons" might you have heard about?

-Jack

    There are infrequent cases of people needing to go stateside for
    specific procedures, but this is usually the exception. Also, if the
    Canadian system approaves of the cross-border procedure, it pays for most 
    or all of it. I feel that this con has been blown out of proportion in the 
    U.S. primarily by those opposed to medicare. You can get the best treatment
    in the world in Canada. e.g. My father had a very new (developed at
    McGill U. in Montreal) cardiac procedure done on him last summer which
    saved his life. He had the surgeon who developed the procedure perform
    the operation.(read best in the country) It didn't cost my dad or the rest
    of the family anything.
    
    The other con I've heard is that Canadians have second rate health
    care. This was certainly not the case for my dad, a poor nobody with a
    bad heart. Only the rich can afford the best in the U.S.
    
    We've got it good here IMHO.
    
    Glenn

    >The major "con" that I've heard has to do with the fact that many Canadians
    >simply can't get certain procedures performed due to insufficient 
    >specialized facilities and practitioners.
    
     "Many" ? That's a stretch.
    
    I've heard that many (read a few million as many) Americans cannot get
    any procedures performed, as they have no health care.
    
    						Derek.
     

It is true that there are very few MRI machines in Canada ... the reason for
this is actually very simple ... the actual NEED for an MRI machine is
amazingly small, so, they tend to be in major centres.  Why is the need for
MRI so small here compared with the US ?  Because Canadian Doctors do not
have to perform such extensive "positive" diagnostic procedures because a)
medical insurance companies do not require it, and b) the Canadian Doctor
is not quite so terrified of having his life sued away from a mis-diagnosis.

That's not to say that Canadian Doctors' diagnostic procedures are inadequate,
it's just that they rely more on their experience.  As a very simple example,
I was recently treated for Strep throat here in Colorado ... strep was
extremely common here during March with lots of people coming down with it.
My US doctor took a strep test and prescribed antibiotics.  In Canada, my 
doctor would, based on an the examination, and a knowledge of the current 
typical ailments, have diagnosed strep without the test and prescribed
antibiotics.  That's not to say they won't use or don't use more advanced
diagnostic procedures, but only as the circumstances warrant.

In this example, the insurance paid the medical visit, the test, and based
on the test, the antibiotic.  In Canada, the Medicare system pays the visit.
You pay for the prescription ... or if you are fortunate, a private
prescription plan pays for the prescription.  The bottom line is that the
public saved $12 for an unnecessary test.  In the case of MRI's the public
saves mega$ for unnecessary tests.

What it boils down to is testing makes easy earnings, and cheap insurance
for doctors ... it makes very expensive insurance for us.  You've got to
put a certain amount of trust in your Doctor's ability ... you're already
paying good dollars for that!

Stuart

re: .9-.11

Makes sense to me. I have to admit that the "cons" I mentioned were from
an American broadcast newsprogram, which may well have been biased.

-Jack

PS. Hi, Stuart.

    What is an MRI?
    
    Ted.

re: .13, Ted

MRI=Magnetic Resonance Imagery

I believe it's similar to a CAT scan in terms of it being a method/device
for obtaining computer enhanced representations of internal body conditions.

-Jack

        
    > Here's one Yanks views on the issues you pointed to.
    
    > Gun Control - most Yanks are infavor of it but the NRA has a powerful
    > lobby in Washington that has blocked all attempts thru mis-information.
    
    I don't have statistics about whether Yanks are in favour of gun
    control or not, but assuming that most Yanks *are* in favour of gun
    control, what does this say about "the greatest democracy in the
    world"?  I don't mean to be sarcastic, but, I've heard the US recently
    being referred to in such terms, and I was wondering which country they
    were talking about.
                            
    > Socialized Medicine - We don't want what you have but we don't want 
    > what we have either. The Con's of your system speak louder down here
    > than the Pro's. We are going down the tubes (unless your an MD or LLB)
    > and something will be done......eventually.
    
    Do the cons of our system outweigh the fact that 30 million Americans
    have no coverage at all?  If so, then you have proven my point.
    
    This is a typically American attitude.  Canadians and the British were
    faced with the same situation, and they overwhelmingly decided to adopt
    a less-than-perfect system, for reasons of fairness and equity.
    
    > Taxes - we are getting fed up with the concept that more Gov't money is
    > the solution to every problem.
    
    I think that Canadians and the British are learning what the Americans
    seem to have known for a long time.  I agree with you on this one.
    In this sense, Canada and England want to move away from Big
    Government.
    
    > State vs Religion - Separation is what we are founded on. It used to
    > be separation and cooperation but some radicals have ruined that. 
    > Most of the worlds problems exist in the states that have not separated
    > the two.
    
    Let's look at civil liberties.  In the US, practicing homosexuality is
    against the law in 22 of 50 states.  In Canada, homosexuality has been
    off the law books for the past 25 years.
    
    American "Bible belt" fundamentalists hold alot of power, and their
    religious beliefs affect the laws in the US.
    
    Civil liberties in Canada are more aligned with what is going on in
    England than what is happening in the US.
    
    > Now, how are we so different ?????
    
    I say Canadians are different than Americans... not better... just
    different.
    
    Normand
    
    P.S. By the way, one of my best friends is hoping to win the
    immigration lottery to the US and move there next year.  We've had some
    very interesting discussions. 
    
    
         

Re: .13

MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imagery) I believe is a renaming of NMR
(Nuclear Magnetic Resonance).  The reason for the renaming was to 
alleviate fears associated with the word Nuclear.  From my understanding
it is really much less invasive then a CAT scan (Computer Aided Tomography - 
sometimes just called CT scan), and provides much clearer pictures.  I
don't know what if any active components are involved in MRI.  I expect
there are some diagnostic procedures that are better handled with CAT
scans, but I believe the biggest drawback to MRI is cost.

Most medical diagnostic procedures are invasive in nature, although the
medical community doesn't like to label them as such.  A good example is 
the CAT scan, which I have commonly seen labeled as non-invasive.  It 
usually involves the injection of an iodine substance into the blood 
stream to enhance the images, which can cause a severe reaction in a small
percentage of the population.  The scan itself involves a small focused
X-ray projection, which has been linked to longer term problems such as
cancer.

Another procedure that I believe is misleading is Ultrasound.  The so called
sound waves that are used I would refer to as radio waves.  It came as
a surprise to me that the frequency used is 1.5-2.5Mhz, which I would
label as short wave radio, not ultrasound.  I am not aware of any immediate
or long term problems linked to it's diagnostic use, but that doesn't 
mean there are none.  Ignorance cannot be equated with safety, we already
have some very serious lessons in history like X-Rays, and thalidomide.  Lab
experiments have linked high levels (many orders of magnitude than used
for diagnostic purposes) of ultrasound exposure to birth defects in animals.

When used appropriately the value of diagnostic procedures can outweigh
their cost/risks.  In my opinion, they are widely misused (far too often 
and their results not properly interpreted) in North American medicine.

	re .16

> sound waves that are used I would refer to as radio waves.  It came as

	Don't sound waves differ from radio waves in what is vibrating?
	Irrespective of the frequency of a sound wave it is not
	electromagnetic radiation.

	Tony

>
>        Don't sound waves differ from radio waves in what is vibrating?
>        Irrespective of the frequency of a sound wave it is not
>        electromagnetic radiation.
>
	If it is 2-3 Mhz, then it is most decidedly EMR, because, in EMR
the vibrations are subatomic (ie elctrons).  "Sound" is a molecular vibration
and you cannot get air / water molecules to vibrate at 2-3 MHz ... they have
too much inertia.

Stuart

�>
�>        Don't sound waves differ from radio waves in what is vibrating?
�>        Irrespective of the frequency of a sound wave it is not
�>        electromagnetic radiation.
�>
�	If it is 2-3 Mhz, then it is most decidedly EMR, because, in EMR
�the vibrations are subatomic (ie elctrons).  "Sound" is a molecular vibration
�and you cannot get air / water molecules to vibrate at 2-3 MHz ... they have
�too much inertia.


	You are of course correct in suggesting that sound waves utilize
	or require mass to propagate. EMR on the other hand, by its very
	nature, does not require a substance, as such, to carry its vibration.

	This is why Electro Magnetic Radiation not affected by a vacuum;
	light, radio waves, heat and all the other forms of EMR exist
	quite happily in a vacuum. As EMR comes in contact with mass, it
	does slow down; ie the speed of light in a vacuum is different
	than that in air or glass.

	Sound waves do not exist in a vacuum, no matter what Star Wars
	might make you think (2001 a Space Oddessy is probably the only
	movie that keeps true to this fact)

	Charlie

    re. -.1

>>	Sound waves do not exist in a vacuum, no matter what Star Wars
>>	might make you think (2001 a Space Oddessy is probably the only
>>	movie that keeps true to this fact)

    Charlie, I must disagree with your first line there, I was using my
    vacuum yesterday and there were plenty of sound waves emanating from its 
    general vicinity.

>>	This is why Electro Magnetic Radiation not affected by a vacuum;
>>	light, radio waves, heat and all the other forms of EMR exist

    I have also noticed that my vacuum affects TV and Radio signals much
    like an electric razor or blow dryer. So I must again disagree with
    this statement as well.

    Glenn

    re. -.8
    
    My 7 year old son recently had the experience of under going 2 tests 
    using the MRI at the Ottawa General Hospital. The MRI machine is 
    shared between the Ottawa General and the Childrens Hospital of Eastern 
    Ontario. The hospitals are interconnected using a pedway system. My son 
    was placed under by the anesthesiologist  (sp ??) at CHEO and wheeled 
    through the hallways to the MRI machine.
    
    We had absolutely no delays in getting him booked for his testing. His
    first test was inconclusive due to the fact he coughed during the scan.
    One must lie prefectly still during any testing. He was not sedated for
    the first test. 
    
    The testing I was told costs approx. $2000 cdn for what amounts to
    about 10 minutes of actual MRI time. 
    
    In Ottawa there is one MRI machine to service roughly 1 million people.
    In Halifax there is one MRI machine to service approc 1 million people
    from 4 provinces.
    
    In speaking with the MRI technologists during my son's scan we spoke
    about the use of the machine in Canada and the US. In Canada the
    specialists tend to use the MRI as a last effort to diagnose a problem.
    In the US it's the exact opposite - they tend to use it as a first
    step. I heard on a PBS show that the city of Seattle has more MRI
    machines than the province of Ontario. This is a little excessive,
    hence the high cost of medical insurance in the US. 
    
    I have studied the cost of medicare in both Canada and the USA as I am
    a member of several parent medical groups in both Canada and the USA.
    Somewhere there is a happy medium between our countries medicare
    systems. Both are getting out of control, however I'll gladly stay in
    Canada for the time being. IMHO the Canadian medicare system is one
    example of your tax dollars at work.
    
    Regards,
    Terry
    

    Terry,
    
    I also hope that your son is okay!
    
    Ted
    

    There were two things that reminded me of home... er make that 3.... on
    a recent visit to Vancouver form the UK. And these are... Range Rovers,
    Marks and Spencers (truly a home from home this one) and Coronation
    street on the telly on Sunday mornings. Appart from these things I felt
    Vancouver had more of an American feel to it than British.
    
    I'm told by my Vancouver chums that Victoria is the real haven for the
    Brits, but I never actually made it to there personally so I don't really
    know.
    
    I thought that the Canadians I had the opportunity of meeting were
    quite reserved in nature like the Brits... or certainly more reserved
    than the Amwericans I've come across.
    
    As a slight asside, but on the earlier mentioned subject of medical care, 
    there have been instances reported in the UK press where American medical 
    insurance companies have sent people from the US to the UK to have specific
    types of non-emergency operations performed... even with the cost of the 
    flight, the cost was still cheaper than having the same operation performed
    in the US.
    
    Reargards,
    
    Stephen
    
    Ps: Oh... and one of the other differences between Americans and Canadians 
    (that I spotted) is that Americans don't say "ai" at the end of asking a 
    question.
    

>
>Appart from these things I felt Vancouver had more of an American 
>feel to it than British.
>

Oooo, I dont think I like that comment.  I'd say we have more of a "Hong Kong"
feel than American!  But then most Europeans make no distinction between Canada
and the U.S.A.  They are quite supprised to find that Canada extends more than
40 miles north of the 48th parallel.  I think that's because most maps of the US
only show that much of Canada.

Your chums are right, Victoria is the real Brit haven.  A walk down Government
street would convince you of that.  Too bad you didn't make it there, Victoria
is a great city.

Cheer,
Dave_give_me_Vancouver_or_give_me_death!!

    Well, having lived in Vancouver from '75-'81 and again in '87-'88, I
    agree it's more "Americanized" than other parts of Canada.  In fact it
    always struck me as California North.  But it may have changed now...
    
    As for the British influences like Marks & Spencer and CornyNation St.,
    we have those in the rest of Canada too!  But can't say I've seen many
    Land Rover's in the east.
    
    Otto.

    From what I've heard, Europeans love Canadians and despise Americans.
    Show you're Canadian passport and you're treated like a King, so I have
    been told.
    
    Glenn

Glenn,

Your quite right, Europeans love Canadians.  However, most of them don't really
know the difference between Canada and the U.S.  I've been to Europe a few
times, mainly Germany, but each time I mention I'm from Canada, I'm always
introduced as coming from "America".  

If that's not enough, most think we drive dog sleds, wear parkas year round and
our main industry is fur trading.  I can understand where the image comes from; 
I remember one night watching a German news cast and the weatherman made 
a comment that it was "-25 C in Canada today", there was no mention of the
location of this measured temp.

Cheers,
Dave.

P.S.  I'll see if anything has changed, I'm off to Germany in two weeks.

    Gee, everybody should know by now that we switched to catsleds during
    the war. Turned out to be much better 'cause when you got stuck you
    could use the kitty litter for traction.

    Wow, what ignorance.

    Glenn

    From a personal point of view I disagree with .26; I have enjoyed
    meeting the Canadians and Americans that I have been lucky enough to
    meet. But (should never start a sentence with "but") the consensus is
    right about the fact that in Britain at least (don't really know about
    the rest of Europe) we do find it difficult to spot the difference
    between Americans and Canadians. If there's a show inside our tv's
    which originates from your side of the Atlantic, there is a tendency in
    the UK to assume that the show and the people involved originate from
    America... Eg. most folks here think John Candy is American ! 
    
    He isn't, is he ?
    
    Mind you it works both ways.... My Vancouver chums work with some folks
    who assume that Britain is permanently fogbound, has lots of rain, and
    everyone eats fish and chips and lives Coronation Street Stylee....
    
    Well I am here to tell you that we've got McDonalds, TGI Fridays,
    Burger King, Baywatch and Jeep Renegades (steering wheel on the RHS
    thanks very much), CD's,  Super Nintendo and Nike sports gear.   
    
    Hell, we've even got our own version of 'Gladiators'... 
    
    But I'm digressing again.
    
    
    In case it didn't come across earlier... I thoroughly enjoyed my time
    in Vancouver... Appart from the bit when some drunk guy gave chase; I
    wuz' saved by a mountie on a mountain bike !
    
    Seriously though, if I had to live in a city I'd pick Vancouver every
    time... Stanley Park is the biz... How'd them squirrels get to be so
    tame ?
    
    Reargards,
    
    Stephen
    
    
    

    ...If Vancouver loves the Range Rover... Just wait 'till you get the
    Land Rover Discovery !!
    
    There I go digressing again....