Conference kaosws::canada

Also not mentioned on the CBC Prime time news:

- Quebec has the highest percentage of bilingualism

- Quebec is the province where minority languages are best preserved.

/Mario

    Sources for this info Mario ???
    
    Stuart

Actually no.

English as a minority language is better preserved in Quebec than other
minority languages in other provinces.

Mario

Hi Mario,
	Is use of French illegal, in any form, in any province?

Regards, Glenn

    
    The politics of Quebec in the last 10 years is slowly (quickly?) 
    working against english being the "best preserved minority language 
    in Canada".
    
    Ben

Re: .6

Glenn, 

Answer to your questions is no, but...

What's your point?

This topic is not about the sign law which I'm against incidently.

However, even with the sign law, English is in less danger in Quebec than
French is in other provinces 

Regards,

Mario

    Hi...
    
    One thing was clear from those stats on Prime Time News was that
    the french language is being spoken less in Canada than in former years.
    
    So for those people who keep saying that the French language in Canada
    is not in danger, now we know that it is and the erosion is measurable
    and substantial.
    
    This certainly puts into perspective some of Qu�bec's language
    policies...
    
    Normand
    Montr�al                                                               

    re .9
    
    The French language MAY WELL be declining in use, but the solution
    to this problem is not in legislating its use, but giving people
    reason to use it.
    
    For example, there are many words which have been imported into
    French from English in recent years, for which government agencies
    have now substituted what they considered an acceptable substitute.
    Practical usage has often rejected these substitutions.  Eventually
    as a result, bilingual people will begin to express not only the
    imported words in English, but also the context around these words
    because it becomes easier to express it in English.
    
    The problem becomes that it is easier to express many ideas in English.
    Instead, it is important to find ways to make the French easier to
    use.  This is one of the many results of trying to "legislate" language
    use and control the content and structure of the language.  For this
    you only have L'Academie Francais and L'Office de la langue Francais
    in Quebec to blame.  Languages must be dynamic to survive .. as must
    cultures.
    
    Stuart

    
    
    Oh, but Mario, 
    
    	You obviously not been to court, nor had a ticket, or have had to
    use a serivce in Quebec, no?
    
    
    

    I was trying to stay out of this one but,
    
    The study also showed that bilingualism was up (I think the study 
    showed up significantly) among those that spoke English as their mother 
    tongue.  The only reason the use of Fench went down (as a percentage)
    was because of immigrants from countries that do not speak English or
    French.
    
    So the actual truth is that the use of French is up more people are
    speaking it now then before!
    
    Now what's that saying about "lies, damn lies and statistics"...
    
    Regards,
    
    Garry, who's trying to convince his wife our son should go to French
    immersion, but beginning to wonder why...
    

Oh, but Mike,

I have not been to court but a good of friend of my mother's back home is a
translator in the local court and gets called in on a regular basis.  If you're
trying to tell me that English is not to be used in Quebec courts, think
again.

I've had tickets but then again I speak French so I don't have a language
barrier.  I know for a fact that if you receive a ticket in Quebec, you have
more chance of getting a gendarme that speaks English, than a a Frenchman has
of getting a French speaking one in other provinces.

I've never had to use an English service in Quebec but my wife has.  She receives
all of her correspondance (driver's license, registration, medical cards, etc...)
in English because she prefers it that way.

Me    3
You   0

Mario

    Languages change, grow, decline, die.  e.i Latin
    
    It's part of life.

> The problem becomes that it is easier to express many ideas in English.
    
For an anglophone, this may be true.

There is an analyst at Soci�te Radio-Canada whose mother tongue is English
but who speaks French fluently and with ease.

What impressed me about him was that, when speaking French, he *never*
uses English terms or phrases.  It was clear to me, then, that speaking
French correctly was a matter of will, and not of ease. 

> The study also showed that bilingualism was up (I think the study 
> showed up significantly) among those that spoke English as their mother 
> tongue.  The only reason the use of French went down (as a percentage)
> was because of immigrants from countries that do not speak English or
> French.
> So the actual truth is that the use of French is up more people are
> speaking it now then before!
    
It isn't the number of people which is important, but the percentage.

There is a good chance that Canada's new immigrants choose English as their
second language simply because it is the main language spoken in North
America.  As the percentage of Francophones in Canada decreases, so does
their political influence and their ability to protect and develop their
culture, as well as Canada's uniqueness. 

> Garry, who's trying to convince his wife our son should go to French
> immersion, but beginning to wonder why...
  
By learning French, your son will be exposed to some of the world's
greatest French thinkers and writers... Rousseau, Moli�re, Victor Hugo,
St-Exup�ry, �mile Zola etc.

Nearer to home, your children will be exposed to the poetry
and music of F�lix Leclerc and the literary genius of Michel Tremblay.
I can't imagine why you would want to deprive him of this.

Normand
  

    Re .15 ...
    
    I know many francophones whose mother tongue and daily use tongue is
    French who will swap back and forth in conversation between English and
    French depending on the ideas they are trying to express ... and they
    do it totally without thinking about it.  When asked about it, one
    person, rather amazed, first said "Do I ?", then realized that she did
    and said it is all a matter of the easiest way to express an idea.
    
    Note that Gary said French Immersion school ... that's not the same
    as not learning French.
    
    On the other hand look at the texts written in Latin, Greek, Hebrew,
    Italian, Chinese and so on ... should he learn all of these too so
    that he can read the works of the great masters in these languages too?
    
    Stuart

    I understand the cultural and business benefits of being bilingual, and
    at the risk of causing heart attacks among some of my francophone
    aquaintances, even regret not being bilingual myself.  However, I wonder 
    if it's all worth it given the political climate and deep seated
    prejudices that are displayed so often.
    
    Regards,
    
    Garry
         

    Ease of use of a language is a question of education.  I received 
    my computer training in English, so I would say that I can express
    some ideas with more ease in English.  My mother was French Canadian
    and she taught me how to cook.  Don't ask me for a recipe in English,
    it just doesn't come out.
    
    In our house, we spoke to my mother in French and to my father in
    English.  Italian operas played (endlessly, I might add) on weekends.
    I never appreciated the richness of my environment until I met
    unilingual anglophones and francophones.
    
    Learning another language gives you an incredible advantage, and yes,
    if Garry's son could learn Latin, Hebrew, Greek, etc. the more power
    to him.  His vision of the world would be exponentially greater than
    yours and mine put together.
    
    Kids today can tell you the difference between hip-hop and raving,
    but they can't name 5 different operas.  They can't tell the basis
    of Freud, nor the difference in philosophy between Rousseau and the
    Marquis de Sade.
    
    I think their curriculum should be modified to include a mandatory
    second language in addition to math and grammar.  And if French
    immersion is available... go for it.
    
    Normand                 

    
    As an semi bilingual anglophone married to a fully bilingual
    francophone, the conversation in our household gets a little wild
    at times. Our 3.5 year old son gets about 40% french and about 60%
    english input, the difference being virtually all his friends are
    english speaking (Kanata-West Ottawa). If you ask him how many
    languages he speaks, he says:
    
    
                   "I speak deux langues"
    
    
    
    Obviously we have some work to do, but he certainly has not suffered
    any brain damage yet. Our biggest problem is finding resource material
    in French without paying an arm and a leg for it, or driving to
    Montreal etc.
    
    We also have to continously remind his maternal granparents to 
    speak French to him, though they are getting better lately. He will
    go to a local French school this September.
    
    Pat

    
    
    
    	
    
    	At best, Quebecs protection of other languages is by accident, not
    design.
    
    
    Mario, 
    
    
    	I'm very glad that you too have not had to go to court in this
    province. I guess you have decided that you will not use an english 
    sign posted anywhere on your property.
    
    	The fact that your Mothers, cousins, uncles, friends, relation is
    a translator is nice but not relevant. The Quebec courts have upheld
    the ruling that is not necassary to be tried in the language of choice.
    
    	
    	Why don't you just sit a comfortable chair, and read a good
    book by Darwin. Careful, your life might flash by your eyes.
    
    
    
    	Good reading,
    
    mike

Mike,

You asked for it.  Let's throw insults at one another.

Like I mentioned before, or did you miss it, I am totally against the Quebec
language law.  So you don't have to throw it on my face and make me eat it.

Re: Mothers, cousins, uncles, bla bla bla  If the Quebec gov't is willing to
pay for translators in court rooms, then that shows good will and if it's done
in Vald'Or I can guarantee you it's done in many other places accross the
province.  What would happen to me if I were to be arrested in another province
and would request to be tried in French???  Has anyone ever tried it?
BTW, I only have 1 mother.

Re: Reading books by Darwin.  I don't see what you're getting at.  Do I sound
biased in any way shape or form?  Maybe I'm able to see the two sides of the 
coin some others can't...  It helps to be bilingual you know.

/Mario

    SET /MODERATOR
    
>You asked for it.  Let's throw insults at one another.
    
    Let's NOT throw insults at one another in notes please!
    
    Stuart

    >Learning another language gives you an incredible advantage, and yes,
    >if Garry's son could learn Latin, Hebrew, Greek, etc. the more power
    >to him.  His vision of the world would be exponentially greater than
    >yours and mine put together.
    
    Normand's right on target here.  Instead of dwelling on the negative
    aspects of foreign languages, we should instead focus on the merits of
    learning foreign languages.
    
    E.g., the Innuits have umpteen different words for snow, each with a
    different shading.  There are things such as these which cannot be
    translated easily.
    
    /George

    re .-1
    
    Which is EXACTLY why using different languages to express different
    ideas is actually a GOOD thing and not really a negative thing as
    so many francophones might have us believe.
    
    Stuart

    
    
    	As once said by a very famous francophone (I think)
    
    	If you love a language, let others be freely used,
    
    	If your language stays around, then it is a good and prosperous 
    			language
    	
    	If it erodes into nothingness, it never was.

    Knowing Cote pretty well, I must say that his ideas are as American
    as they could possibly be (ie. America's Way is the ONLY WAY!!).
    
    If we would have used your little poem for the sake of Canada we'd
    be living in Igloo's and tents while our leader would be a Chief
    Tomahawk from some tribe....but hey, I digress!
    
    Andy

    No, not na�ve ... it's really quite profound, and applies to
    anything you care about.
    
    Stuart

    I doubt the use of French will disappear off the face of the earth,
    with 60 million Frenchmen in France, alone.  They will be speaking
    French long after you and I are both dead.
    
    The language, itself, is not threatened.  Its use in North America is.
    
    The latest statistics prove that.  The percentage of people speaking
    French in Canada has decreased, probably as a side-effect of immigration.
    
    The fate of the French language in North America is intimately
    tied to Qu�bec's language policies.  How Qu�bec develops and protects
    the use of French will affect directly the use of French on this
    continent for future generations.
    
    If the government abandons it, and adopts policies synonymous with that
    insipid poem, we'll lose French as an option this side of the Atlantic. 
    
    Born of a French-Canadian mother, I'll work to make sure that never
    happens.
    
    Normand 
    

    
    
    
    	...... Followed by :
    
    		I am FrenchMAN here me roar
    			In numbers too big to ignore....

Normand,

You just don't seem to get it ...

Just because the percentage of people speaking French in Canada, percentage
wise, has decreased does not mean the actual number of French speakers
has decreased.  In fact, they may have increased.  Even assuming that the
number of people speaking French as a primary tongue has not changed, the
number of people capable of using French as a secondary tongue may well
have increased.

Quoting percentages is very misleading in a dynamic environment.

I have said this so many times in here, but I'll repeat it one more
time ... "Language and culture is not protected by legislation ... they
are protected through use and promotion"  You cannot promote a language
by forcing people to use it.

Stuart

I tend to agree Mike's little poem was "insipid," as opposed to "profound."
The politics of language is here to stay in this country, grotesque & silly as
it sometimes gets.

Chantal H�bert's column in the Sunday Ottawa Citizen had a good little
discussion of these numbers, noting the irony that use of French in the home
outside Quebec has been dropping during the period when governments outside
Quebec finally got serious about providing French-language services, and 
anglophone Canadians got serious about bilingualism.    

It should be noted that the New Brunswick Acadian community is an
exception to this trend (of French use dropping outside Quebec.)

The Montreal Gazette's front page headline on the census numbers was something
like "English Declines in Quebec."  Le Devoir was something like "Canada
Anglais, Qu�bec Fran�ais."


The politics of language, instalment 112233445566778899001122334455:

Quebec bureaucrats have ruled that "stop" is a French word, so
municipalities don't have to change all their signs to read "arr�t."  Westmount
plans to use "stop", famously bilingual Rosem�re will have both "stop"
and "arr�t."  PQ spokesperson opposed the decision, saying it will provoke 
vandalism.  St. Jean Baptiste Society's Dorion also predictably opposed.


-Stephen

> You just don't seem to get it ...

    NO, YOU DON'T GET IT!
    
> Just because the percentage of people speaking French in Canada, percentage
> wise, has decreased does not mean the actual number of French speakers
> has decreased.  In fact, they may have increased.  Even assuming that the
> number of people speaking French as a primary tongue has not changed, the
> number of people capable of using French as a secondary tongue may well
> have increased.
    
    The basis of a democracy is 1 vote per person and because we are
    a democracy, percentage counts!  The group of people with the higher
    percentage rules!  The more percentage... the more power.  The more 
    power... the better you are to defend your rights, culture, language,
    etc.
      
> Quoting percentages is very misleading in a dynamic environment.

    OK, Stuart.  What if I told you that the number of people in 
    Quebec who speak English had increased by 1000 over the past 10
    years.  However, I just neglected to tell you that the percentage
    had actually dropped from 25% to 3% because of immigration, and a sudden
    interest in learning and speaking French.  Would you be happy with
    that? 
    
    Oh, and by the way, you now have only 3 English-speaking MNAs in the
    capital instead of 30 because of the percentage drop.
    
    How would you feel?
    
> I have said this so many times in here, but I'll repeat it one more
> time ... "Language and culture is not protected by legislation ... they
> are protected through use and promotion"  You cannot promote a language
> by forcing people to use it.

  No one is *forced* to speak French in Qu�bec.
    
    Normand         
    
    Normand

    Stephen,
    
    Re: STOP signs -
    
    When the CBC (we all trust them, right!) reported the ruling about stop
    signs, they made a point of saying that "STOP" was legal, that "ARR�T:
    was legal, but "STOP" and "ARR�T" on the same sign was illegal!
    
    You figure it out...
    
    Garry

re the poem ...

The poem itself is doggerel ... but the idea behind the poem does have
quite a degree of profundity and does bear a lot of consideration.


re statistics

Relative numbers (i.e. percentages) do have a bearing ... I will agree
to that ... under certain circumstances.  BUT what I am tring to say
is that quoting percentages by themselves does not prove anything,
just as quoting raw numbers doesn't prove anything conclusive.

Larger percentages does not always equate to more power ... there are
lots of other parameters that determine power.  There are many minorities
that control large majorities because they have leverage.

If you tell me that French spoken as a first language outside Quebec tumbled 
from 25% to 3% then, I have no problem with the concept that French is doomed
outside Quebec.  If you tell me that French went from 25% to 20% but the
actual number of French speakers barely declined, say due to immigration,
then the percentage change means little for the survival of the French
language and culture.

>    OK, Stuart.  What if I told you that the number of people in 
>    Quebec who speak English had increased by 1000 over the past 10
>    years.  However, I just neglected to tell you that the percentage
>    had actually dropped from 25% to 3% because of immigration, and a sudden
>    interest in learning and speaking French.  Would you be happy with
>    that? 
>    
>    Oh, and by the way, you now have only 3 English-speaking MNAs in the
>    capital instead of 30 because of the percentage drop.
>    
>    How would you feel?

Why shouldn't I be happy with that ... Quebec IS a predominantly francophone
province ?  If, as an anglophone, I chose to live there, then that is something
I should accept, as long as my human rights are not impinged, I don't care!

I have just moved to the United States on a non-immigrant work visa.  I have
no vote ... I am taxed without representation.  I have certain unalienable
rights even so, under the US constitution.  BUT I have negligible say in
laws that directly affect me.  I accept this.  I don't want to change
Colorado to be another Ontario; the USA to be another Canada.

I don't want to see Quebec become another Ontario; I don't want to see
Ontario become another Quebec.  Diversity is important to me.

Now there are people in linguistic areas not by choice, but by birth or
other fateful circumstances.  I cannot speak for them, but what I can say
is that the linguistic majority must respect that minority.  That's not the
same as catering to their every whim because they are a minority, but 
reasonable compromises should be reached to allow minorities to function
in a majority situation.

>> I have said this so many times in here, but I'll repeat it one more
>> time ... "Language and culture is not protected by legislation ... they
>> are protected through use and promotion"  You cannot promote a language
>> by forcing people to use it.
>
>  No one is *forced* to speak French in Qu�bec.
                   
On the street, no one is forced to speak French but the language laws of Quebec 
force the use of French under many circumstances.  I cannot educate my children 
in English in Quebec for example.  Ontario doesn't force you to speak English.
There are French language schools, French Immersion schools, Chinese schools
and so on and you are free to choose.

Stuart

RE: .34

>> Forcing english immigrants' parents to go to French school:

BTW, that law is currently under review.


RE: .33

"STOP" and "ARR�T" on the same sign.

The way I heard it on the French news is that having both on the same sign will
be perceived as having both the English and French version of the word on the
sign.  Since English is banned on signs, hence the decision not to have both.

My money goes to pay these politicians...

Figure that out.

    Re French school for immigrants ...
    
    Yes ... I was aware that that law was under review ... but the thing
    is that law alone has already cast its effect ... it will take a long
    time for the effects of such laws to wear off.  When the CSC moved to
    Hull, for example, I might have made a different decision regarding
    moving across the border instead of commuting the 20 miles every day.
    
    And to add to my thought re the hypothetical situation of decreasing
    MNAs ... that would not bother me as long as the government as a whole
    still respected the minorities.
    
    Stuart
    
    

    There seems to be a little confusion re the numbers here.  The number
    of french-speaking (primary tongue) households referred to in .0 was
    **OUTSIDE** of quebec (3-4%).  This is entirely different from the overall
    Canadian percentage (25%).  Don't compare 25% to 3%...
    
    
    I leave the argument about English and minority languages in Quebec for
    a minute to focus on the french language outside of Quebec.  I have
    been very interested in this, ever since I moved from Montreal to
    Ontario in the 70's and watched that political master, Bill Davis,
    stickhandle his way out of political problems with respect to french
    language services.  From a political and legal standpoint, this is what
    the issue boils down to, since (outside quebec) there are no
    restrictions on languages at an individual level.  The point: its the
    services offered by the government that are an instrument of policy,
    that are something that we (society) do in a rational and planned
    manner.  If our social plan or objective is to offer **services** (not
    forcing bilingualism on anyone), we can consciously assist in
    maintaining and promoting minority language services.  The federal
    government has done (or attempted to do) this within its scope.  What
    has truly fallen down is the social objective (and services following
    from that) from the PROVINCIAL governements!!!
    
    We get the government we deserve and tolerate.  It is politically easy
    to sacrifice minorities, to listen to hotheads and bigots who demand
    "no special treatment" for minorities (even the ludicrous Committee for
    the Preservation of English).  The premiers even collude with each
    other, assisting each other in their efforts to lower expectations, and
    put down any "minority" activism.  Witness Robert Bourassa's grand tour
    before Meech, basically telling Albertans (and westerners) that Quebec
    will safeguard the french language in Canada, thank you, and please
    shut up.  Ask the president of the Association des francophones hor
    quebec whether she was included or listened to - by anyone!!!
    
    
    Bottom line(s):
    
    1.  Don't blame Canada (or the feds) globally for ignoring the french
        language, and not supporting it outside quebec.  Blame the short
        sighted provincial politicians.
    
    2.  Don't assume that Quebec (the government) is the saviour of the 
        french language - it already has failed outside of quebec.  Within 
        Quebec, the language, the culture is already strong, 
        *********  BUT NOT BECAUSE OF LANGUAGE LAWS!!  ***********
    
    
    Pieter
    

>    Bottom line(s):
>    
>    1.  Don't blame Canada (or the feds) globally for ignoring the french
>        language, and not supporting it outside quebec.  Blame the short
>        sighted provincial politicians.
>    
>    2.  Don't assume that Quebec (the government) is the saviour of the 
>        french language - it already has failed outside of quebec.  Within 
>        Quebec, the language, the culture is already strong, 
>        *********  BUT NOT BECAUSE OF LANGUAGE LAWS!!  ***********
>    

re 1 ...

With any government, it's a matter of political expediency ... if it serves
their purpose to provide services in French (or any other language) then
they'll do it ... if it doesn't they won't.

re 2 ...

Parizeau has made this very plain ... he does not care about the Acadians,
he does not care about the Metis and other small bastions of the French
language in Canada.  But there are 2 forces at work here, with a similar
goal of an independent Quebec ... a) the politicians who seek power and
b) those who believe that French Language and Culture must be preserved
in Quebec.

So, If we are talking about French in Canada, we can talk about two different
agendae .... the first being attached to the politics of the country and
Quebec, and the second being solely cultural.  Let's beware of the difference.

I was only looking at the numbers that were given to me ... I didn't see
them.

Stuart

    Some of you seem to be under the delusion that Quebec is unilingual
    French and the rest of Canada is bilingual...
    
    GIVE ME AN EXTENDED BREAK!
    
    Of all the provinces, Quebec is, by far, the most bilingual...
    
    In 95% of the province, I can be served in both English and French.  I
    can choose a basically English hospital (St-Mary's, Jewish General,
    Royal Victoria, etc.), I can go to an English University (McGill
    University, Concordia, Bishop's) or to a French University and submit
    my papers in English (University of Montr�al, UQAM).  Most store
    personnel are bilingual as are civil servants.
    
    The only area where you might have problems is in rural areas, or the
    odd civil servant that doesn't understand a word of English.
    
    Tell me... would I have the same access to French services in Calgary?
    In Victoria? In Kingston? In P.E.I.? ... French universities, hospitals,
    store personnel and civil servants?
    
    Normand                            
    

>    Some of you seem to be under the delusion that Quebec is unilingual
>    French and the rest of Canada is bilingual...

I certainly didn't say that ...

Tell me ... why are more Francophones (% wise) bilingual than Anglophones ?

Let me surmise ...

1) as a minority on a predominantly anglophone continent English is useful in
business and trade.
2) English is becoming more and more the International language for business,
trade, air traffic control, technology and to deal in the international market
in French alone would be a severe handicap.
3) to follow the majority of cultural happenings on the continent, a knowledge
of English is a prerequisite.

Conversely, why aren't more Anglophones bilingual ... they don't have these
requirements.  Put simply, an Anglophone in Toronto has negligible need of
French ... similarly in Vancouver and so on.

On that basis, political expediency and cost, it is tougher to get services
in French throughout Anglophone Canada, and comparitively easy to get services
in English in Francophone Canada.

If you travel to Germany, should you expect service in French or Italian ...
(they are neighbours in Europe after all) ... the answer is no.  In Canada,
you can expect Federal government services in both languages ... provincial
government services, maybe, ... private services, questionable.  We go a
long way towards being a bilingual country.

This is an OLD argument, and a very unproductive one.  What is more important
is what does it take to a) make the French language and culture more popular
throughout Canada, and conversely English more acceptable in Quebec.

Stuart

>  You cannot promote a language by forcing people to use it.


	I don't know, we seem to have done welll through the centuries by 
	doing this. English is now the primary, secondary or "official"
	language of many countries other than the UK - due to this principle!

	Heather

    Aside from the sign law, there are other small 'irritants' that may
    make someone less tolerant of Quebec's intentions:
    
    I work in Quebec and I receive a T4 income statement from the Canadian
    government (bilingual) and a Releve income statement from the Quebec
    government (unilingual French).
    I have an Ontario Drivers Licence (bilingual). In Quebec they are
    French only.
    
    -George

        
> On that basis, political expediency and cost, it is tougher to get services
> in French throughout Anglophone Canada, and comparitively easy to get services
> in English in Francophone Canada.

    So we agree.  Canada is basically a bilingual province called Qu�bec
    and 9 unilingual English provinces and 2 territories.
    
> We go a long way towards being a bilingual country.
    
    I think Qu�becers believed this for years under the Trudeau
    administration until they started to visit the rest of Canada and
    suddenly realized that there was, in fact, little will of the people to
    learn French.

> This is an OLD argument, and a very unproductive one.  What is more important
> is what does it take to a) make the French language and culture more popular
> throughout Canada, and conversely English more acceptable in Quebec.

    Again, the delusion that English culture is outlawed in Qu�bec.
    
    I liked your reasons for why a Qu�becer should learn English.  Add to
    that, though, the historical reason that for decades, before The Quiet
    Revolution, francophones were forced to learn English if they wanted to
    work... not because customers were necessarily anglophones, and not
    because of international reasons, but because the boss was a unilingual
    anglophone.
    
    And, of course, even when they learned English, they were
    denied higher level jobs because of their heritage and their french
    names.
    
    Here is an anecdote.  My uncle's first name is Orlando.  This is a
    perfectly acceptable Italian name.  When he went to school, the Irish
    brothers renamed him Patrick.  Why?  Because the name Orlando would
    never be accepted in the predominantly English business structure.
    To this day, we call him Uncle Pat.
    
    Normand
   

    As stated before, and convienently forgotten in the deluge of French
    self pity, there are two provinces that are leagaly bound to be
    bilingual. Manitoba, and New Brunswick. Quebec and Ontario provide
    services in the "other" offical language. This represents a signifacant
    majority of the country, so take your Quebec is nicer argument
    somewhere where people are willing to swallow anything to blame their
    problems on The Rest Of Canada. I resent it being called "English"
    Canada, because it in no way represents the cultural diversity that the
    other parts of Canada have. Wnat proof? Go tell an Irish person they
    are English. (Bring band-aids) 
    
     As for the use of French outside Quebec, does the concept of evolution
    hold sway in the part of thte universe occupied by the militant
    Francophones? If so maybe the erosion can be put down to: use it, or
    lose it. If it were valuable/essential/usefull, it would survive. Since
    it is not, it is declining. Why should I as an Anglophone be blamed for
    the French people outside Quebec not useing French in the home? Yet
    another example of militant Francophones trying to blame their own
    inadequacy on the ROC.
    
    
    	Derek (who now thinks Quebec should join Canada as the constitution
    stands, or seperate)

>    So we agree.  Canada is basically a bilingual province called Qu�bec
>    and 9 unilingual English provinces and 2 territories.

You paint a very black and white picture and seem to miss all the shades
of grey.  Canada comprises 1 province, predominantly francophone with a
comparitiviely high degree of bilingualism (Quebec) and several declared
bilingual provinces, predominantly anglophone with again, a comparatively
high degree of bilingualism, and several other provinces with a comparatively
low level of bilingualism, predominantly anglophone.

This is not the black and white you portray.

>    I think Qu�becers believed this for years under the Trudeau
>    administration until they started to visit the rest of Canada and
>    suddenly realized that there was, in fact, little will of the people to
>    learn French.

It takes more than a will to learn French ... to increase bilingualism, there
must be a perceived need.  In British Columbia, there is a greater need to
learn Cantonese than there is to learn French!

There is a far greater need for a francophone to be bilingual, being in a
minority, than an anglophone, except in certain areas of the country, and this
is a situation many Quebecois seem unwilling to accept, but it is a fact of
life in anglophone North America.

>> This is an OLD argument, and a very unproductive one.  What is more important
>> is what does it take to a) make the French language and culture more popular
>> throughout Canada, and conversely English more acceptable in Quebec.
>
>    Again, the delusion that English culture is outlawed in Qu�bec.

Again you are looking in black and white ... I didn't say that is is outlawed,
I said *more acceptable*. 

I do not deny that there were civil rights infractions by the anglophone
majority on the minorities in days gone by ... even by their standards ...
but remember you are looking back and putting todays values on actions of 
yesteryear.  Remember that you should look at the changes from then until
now.

Today, I would not call you Norman ... your name is Normand, just as today
people are far more respectful of calling me Stuart rather than the Stu
nickname (which I dislike).  In my parents generation, I would have had
little choice ... it would almost be forced on me.  So, be careful which
measuring stick you use.

Stuart

How about this:  one bilingual province where use of English is officially
discouraged (Quebec); one bilingual province where the two languages are
officially equal, though English has historically had privileged status
(New Brunswick); one predominantly English-speaking province where extensive 
services are offered in French to the francophone minority(Ontario); and seven 
other provinces, mainly English-speaking, where the status of the francophone
minority varies, though it's not very visible except in small local areas (e.g.
Ch�ticamp or rural Yarmouth County in Nova Scotia.)  Manitoba also has a
peculiar constitutional status that led to the massive effort to translate all
its laws into French a few years ago, though the francophone minority is not 
large.

Generally, though, it's true, Quebec is predominantly French-speaking, though
more bilingual than anywhere else, and most of the rest of the country is
predominantly English-speaking.

Though English-speaking Canadians are not going to abandon English, there is
considerable interest in learning French, as the rise in French immersion
schooling for children across the country shows.  I think Canadians are
generally proud of the country's bilingual character, however the attitudes of
Quebec nationalists may irritate them.

The language laws seem to have had the desired effect; there's been a massive,
continuing outmigration of Quebec anglophones, and French is now the language
of much of Quebec business. 

-Stephen

    I , for one, vote to strike the Official Bilingualism policy in
    Canada. As a Canadian who has travelled from coast to coast on
    numerous occasions, I have personally witnessed how ridiculous
    it can be to even attempt to promote "the French language" anywhere
    but in the immediate vicinity of Quebec.
    
    One only has to venture out past Eastern Ontario to realize that
    French immediately becomes a foreign language , aside from very small
    pockets of francophones interspersed in some Western provinces
    and New Bruswick.
    
    Why am I taking this stand you ask?
    
    Because as a former Quebecker and non-Francophone with a similar
    background to Normand Cardella's, I have experienced the animosity
    between Francophones and Anglophones in Quebec for many years.
    
      This was not the principal reason for my leaving Quebec, but
    it definitely was a deciding factor.
    I feel that there is an inordinate amount of posturing in the
    Provine of Quebec by the respective language groups.
    If we examine the issue practically, Quebeckers of both
    language groups would realize the importance of the English language
     in business and commercially, especially with the Rest Of Canada
    and , with the advent of "Free Trade", in the GLobal Economy.
    
     It is understood that the Francophone population wish to preserve
    their language and culture, but restricting use of the other
    language is definitely not the solution to further these aims .
    
    One just has to view the incredible amount of English and
    American media which is currently being pumped into homes
    via TV and other forms of Entertainment.
    As Stuart mentioned, there must be a goal presented to preserve
    the French language into posterity, not just " let's use it or
    lose it".
    
    
     I apologize for digressing, but it would make so much more sense
    for the people in Canada to just accept the fact that the
    French language is a Quebec phenomena and cannot be expected to
    be wholeheartidly supported across Canada.
    Everytime I travelled to points west, namely Vancouver I realize
    our folly and can't for a second fathom a unilingual Francophone
    person surving in this and other cities outside Quebec.
    
    Have Quebec with the nations largest Francophone population
    by all means promote the French language among its' people,
    but not at the expense of pouncing upon the other language
    through legislation.
    
    I've replied in this fashion, because I find it ridiculous
    to continuously read about the scenario of a Francophone
    travelling or residing outside Quebec fully expects
    a complete French environment to surround him/her.
    
    This delusion only perpetuates the problem, I'm all for 
    French for Quebec and possibly immediate surroundings,
    and English for the Rest of Canada, as the demographics
    of this country demonstrate.
    
    
    
    

RE: .30
    
>I have said this so many times in here, but I'll repeat it one more
>time ... "Language and culture is not protected by legislation ... they
>are protected through use and promotion"  You cannot promote a language
>by forcing people to use it.
    
    Stuart, when England controlled Ireland, the Irish language (Gaeilge)
    was not protected by legislation.  In fact, the English made speaking
    Irish against the law and punishable (not to mention a lot of other
    activities).
    
    Today, thanks to this policy and other economic factors, there are
    barely 60,000 full-time Irish speakers left in the "ould sod".
    So as history shows, you can successfully promote a language by
    forcing people to use it...  Ask any Irishman.
    
      /
    Slan beo,
    George

>    Stuart, when England controlled Ireland, the Irish language (Gaeilge)
>    was not protected by legislation.  In fact, the English made speaking
>    Irish against the law and punishable (not to mention a lot of other
>    activities).
>    
>    Today, thanks to this policy and other economic factors, there are
>    barely 60,000 full-time Irish speakers left in the "ould sod".
>    So as history shows, you can successfully promote a language by
>    forcing people to use it...  Ask any Irishman.

You said it in one here ... "when England controlled Ireland" ...

Canada does not control Quebec ... it does not FORCE English on Quebec,
just as it does not force French on the rest of the country.  It is
closer to free market forces that are driving the language issue except
by those who believe they can protect the french language by legislation.

Yes, Quebec could force all anglophones to speak French, but you can be certain
that free market forces would soon impinge upoon the well being of Quebec.

If you want to make comparisons, look at the resurgence of the Welsh
language throughout Wales ... it too was nearly extinct but a desire to
learn Welsh by the Welsh people made it popular again.  It was not
legislation.

Stuart

    Let me input a bit here as a citizen of a deprived, backward,
    unilingual (officially) country.  The USA.
    
    I feel really deprived that I was not forced to take/learn a language
    in School.  I learned (against my will) english in school, and I hated
    having to take a language at all.  I an lucky that I had a good
    teacher, she insisted on the diagramming, and all the other bad things.
    Now I can appreciate all the work that she put in.  Later I found out
    that she could teach German, French, Italian and other languages also,
    but our farming village could not afford anything but the basics, so we
    were not even offered any languages.  
    
    I wish that I had been forced to learn a language in school.  I learned
    German in later times, and I understand written French some, and I am
    somewhat versed in the Nordic languages... Norsk, Dansk.  
    
    What a backward country...  The countries that are making moves in the
    industrial world today teach other languages in school.  
    
    Dave

    What some of you do not seem to understand, is that Canada HAS
    legislated to outlaw french in the past and "market forces" are now
    "ruling" french out as a language in Canada.  We do not need to
    preserve english anymore than the English governement has to keep Welsh
    from ever stamping out english in Wales (or scott in Scottland...)
    
    A few weeks ago, my children had a hockey card from the early 1900s of
    the Qu�bec Bulldogs, there was not a single french name in the whole
    lineup, so my conclusion was that we only learned to play hockey later
    than 1930, just as blacks only learned to play baseball past 1950!
    
    Jean
    

    Jean,
    
    Certain PROVINCES outlawed French ... yes.  But as you say ... this was
    in the past.  Please stop waving the far gone past at us today as
    examples of what is wrong today.  The kind of discrimination you are
    using as an example was unfortunately acceptable in the past.  Such
    discrimination is not acceptable today.  You are measuring today's
    society by yesterdays examples and yesterday's atrocities by today's
    standards; neither of which is particularly valid.
    
    Market forces are making all kinds of languages obscelescent in the
    international market ... but that hasn't wiped out the languages
    existence.
    
    Stuart
    
    

    "outlawed French?"  How do you mean?
    
    -Stephen

    Stuart,
    
    	I don't think you would have such a "politicaly correct" attitude
    if the language you speak now and have been speaking for all your life
    was any other EXCEPT english. 
    
    	What ever you say, succeding language laws in Qu�bec HAVE made a
    difference, and to echo Jacques Parizeau's sayings, I do not count on
    anglophones and anglophiles to preserve MY language and culture.  If
    a person WILL not integrate, let them leave for what they perceive as
    greener pastures.
    
    Jean
    

    
    
    Jean,
    
    	Your attitude makes me laugh. Good one! hahaha.
    
    	Its like saying, "Hey Frenchy, go back to France where you came
    from!!"
    
    	Nice 

    Jean,
    
    Sounds a lot like " if them boys don't want to segregate let them move
    on up to them Yankee pastures up North". 
    
    Jacques Parizeau = George Wallace = Lester Maddox
    
    Yes, if people don't like the laws they are free to move on.
    (tongue in cheek)
    
    Ted.