Conference kaosws::canada

    The GST in itself isn't bad  IF (big if) it was used to decrease the
    defficit. 
    
    I don't appreciate being gouged though. Base prices were suppose to
    drop when the manufacturing tax was remove.
    
    As to cross border shopping I don't see what the government is
    complaining about, they still collect thier precious GST. In my 
    opinion Canada needs to decide wether we have free trade or we don't.
    If we do then take all duties and trade barriers down. If we don't
    then make the duties on all products so high that Canada we effectively
    be a closed country.
    
    As to wages ..... you got to be kidding
    
    Brian V
    

    As taxes go, the GST isn't so bad in as much as EVERYBODY has to
    pay it in one form or another, unless you get a "pass-through".
    
    BUT, the thing I hate about the GST and the provincial sales taxes
    is that although we were promised a visible tax, what we really have
    is a visible tax ,,, after you get to the cash register.  I would be
    far happier to know that the price on the label or in the advertisement
    is the bottom line consumer price ... i.e. what I pay at the checkout.
    I hate the surprises of item a attracts pst but not gst or vice versa
    And I HATE having to rush calculate ... "Item costs $3.89, I've got
    4.50 in my pocket ... do I have enough cash ?"  Only to discover that
    I don't!
    
    I do buy the line that it is a more equitable tax, in that the final
    consumer pays the tax load, whether a product is sold here in Canada
    to Joe Bloggs, or is exported.  In this case, the exporter pays the
    tax ... granted, he'll collect it back in the item price, so the
    foreign importer will actually end up paying it.
    
    On of the things I'd prefer to see is a tiered GST ... for example
    a zero tax rate, for goods that are to be promoted, in order to
    say stimulate the economy, a new home and building materials tax
    rate, a standard rate which we have now, and finally a luxury tax
    rate, for things like luxury cars, jewelry over a certain value
    and so on.
    
    I'd propose that the tax be included in the shelf price, but the
    amount of tax paid in that price be included on the cash register
    slip.
    
    Then we can compare exactly what the costs are.
    
    While I accept that shopping abroad can be cheaper, on the whole
    it is not significantly cheaper to make special trips to the US
    to buy goods, so anything I bring back will be within my personal
    allowances.  One of the affects of shopping across the border in
    any quantity is to cut Canadian tax revenues, which will have to be
    found elsewhere, possibly by increasing taxes on other things, so
    fewer people are shouldering a bigger tax burden.
    
    The GST alone isn't why prices are cheaper in the US ... Average Canadians
    generally seem to have a better "average" standard of living.  In
    the trips I've made to the US, I see far more extremely poor people
    and more wealthy people.  So, this has to be paid for somewhere ...
    On the other hand, we do also see a lot more high price markups on
    goods, often because other goods will not sell.  There is a trade-off
    between lower profit, higher turnover and higher profit, lower
    turnover.  Canadian stores seem to be more conservative and take the
    latter, whereas US stores take the former approach.  A side effect of
    this is that when the economy goes into recession, Canadian stores
    can take a real beating as consumers seek out sales ... Most Canadian
    stores are nearly on a sale a week these days.
    
    As to how to reduce our burgeoning tax load ?  I think we need
    greater accountability fromour politicians at every level.  While
    our form of parliamentary democracy does suffer inequities in some
    ways, the worst has got to be the lack of accountability to the
    electorate once in office.  If the politician knew he could lose power
    at the drop of a hat, budgets starting at the top would be trimmed.
    After all what incentive is there for somebody in the public service
    to cut his own budgetary needs back to what is required from what would
    be nice, if he sees the ministers in his department spending money
    likethere is no tomorrow.
    
    Stuart

    
    
    Are there some things that the GST/Ontario PST doesn't apply to? 
    Perhaps groceries under $4.00 or something?  I seem to recall that
    there was a time where if you bought 2 chocolate bars together, you'd
    be charged with GST/PST, but if you bought them seperately, you
    wouldn't need to pay tax.
    
    Through all this hub-bub, I've lost track and am no longer sure if
    Seven-11 CAN charge you that extra 10 cents for that bag of chips...
    
    Greg

    Instead of the tax being called the GST(Goods and Services Tax), the
    fed's should call it the "B.O.H.I.C.A. Tax"...that is - Bend Over,
    Here It Come Again!!!!
    
    It seems every time you turn around, you get taxed an extra 7%.
    
    I wouldn't mind paying it if I KNEW FOR SURE that the funds collected
    were paying down the federal deficit and eventualy lead towards lower
    personal income tax. To date since the GST was introduced, I never
    seen a single article in any newpaper which states the government is 
    delivering on its directives and effectively using the peoples' money
    reduce the public debt.
    
    However, judging on the amount of money being wasted on the constitutional
    issues surrounding the "Squeaking Wheel", and the lack of
    accountability in the federal public service, you can bet that
    the additional money from their "CASH COW" are being wasted again on
    government mismanagement.
    
    Personally, I'm sick and tired of being misled and angry at corrupt,
    incompetent politicians. I'm also furious that Canadians don't have
    the wherewithall to raise h**l and let the MP's know who their
    employers are. In my opinion, the GST is killing the country and the
    polity financially and should be abolished.
    
    Steaming_In_Ottawa_and_considering_my_options!
    
    BD
    
    
    

    RE: .4  Agree wholeheartedly!!!  I heard that the cost of administering
            the BOHICA tax (good one!) was eating 70% of the revenue
            collected!  That's sick!  Make a new tax to fund more silly
            servants' jobs!
    Otto.

It seems that the major incentive for Canadians to shop in the U.S. is the large
price difference they see on almost every conceivable product.  My understanding
is that the Canadian Health system is financed by provincial sales taxes.  I'm
not sure what G.S.T. is used for except that usually sales taxes are regarded as
regressive since they impact low income people more than middle/upper income 
earners.  If Canada financed it's health care system via an increased income tax,
then the price differential with goods purchased in the U.S. would be 
significantly lower.

As a Canadian living in New Hampshire for the last twenty years, I must admit to 
real missgivings as to how well governments spend money.  I think of myself as
a small "l" liberal but am conservative in the sense  that I think that tax 
payers should get value for their money.  I lived for three years in West Germany
and was always impressed by the attention the German media gave to how government
programs were managed. Almost every night on the news you would see a report 
along the lines of "so many marks/phennings (sp?) were spent on such and such
a training program and x number of workers were re-trained for other jobs". This
is in stark contrast to any such kind of reporting I've seen in either Canada
or the U.S.. New Hampshire has been wrestling for some time with a proposal to 
adopt an income tax. New Hampshire currently doesn't have either a sales tax or
an income tax.  A more telling point is that although some people complain about
high property taxes, if you compare these property taxes to the states next door,
Mass., Vermont, and Maine, they don't seem particularly high.  New Hampshire does
have a business profits tax, but it's a hidden tax since the average person 
doesn't pay it.  My confidence that the government can manage to spend money 
efficiently on programs that I want is so low that I am very reluctant to 
support an income tax in this state even though I think that it would be a fairer
way to raise money. 

It has always bothered me that people will cry and moan about how they're 
taxed while never turning their attention to the questions of what the legitimate
functions of government are and just exactly which programs are they willing to 
pay for.  Of course, the S & L bail out (orchestrated and written by the banking
lobby) should give everyone pause as to what happens when you don't vote for 
ethical people. Ethical politician - an oxymoron?

-Alex

    On a recent visit to Canada, I was very surprised  ( and very upset )
    in having to pay GST on postage stamps! Paying tax on a tax ( a stamp
    is by definition a tax ) is really insane. I wonder what silly servent
    thought that one up!  Now if the post office really supplied a good
    service I wouldn't be that upset, but since they don't ....
    
    Here in the UK the VAT tax is now up to 17�%. As it is a hidden tax, I
    have no idea what goods I buy have accrued the tax or not. Rather
    annoying.  The what-you-see-is-what-you-pay is rather convenient for
    determining if you have enough cash in your pocket to buy the item, but
    you lose track of how much money the government is raking in.  Very
    convenient for the tax collectors.  
    
    As a contractor here in the UK, I have to add VAT to my invoices. Over
    the year I have paid more in business income tax and VAT taxes than my 
    flatmate  earns as salary. And as usual, there is no government
    accountablity for the way they spent the money.
    
    It is my belief that the middle class through out the western world is
    a dying breed. We are slowing being taxed to death. We all know that
    the rich don't pay enough ( At what level is one classified as rich?)
    and the poor are just that poor and can't pay.
    
    While I'm on my soapbox, I have one last beef.  It involves that
    wonderous day April 30th.  As I had about $7,000 of investment income
    from Canadian sources during 1991. The government taxed that at the
    normal rate. Thats fine, but then because I'm non-resident they tacked on a
    surcharge of about 50% making the tax bill of about $1,500. So much
    for getting a reasonable return on your investmest. I should have spent
    the money instead! I can most likely get some of that back though the
    British government ( CDN-UK tax agreements ), but the time delay and
    the fee my accountant will charge most likely will eat up any potential
    gains.                                                 
    
    
    Philip 
    
    ( whose blood presure rises at this time of year! $�DF� )
    

    re: .-2
    
    My understanding is that funding for health care is up to the
    individual provinces, but they each get federal transfer payments for
    health, welfare and education.  One of the things that incensed me
    was the fact that although the federal govt did have the intention
    of maintaining certain standards for education across the country,
    each provincial premier could divert the funds to whatever he wished.
    There was very little accountability in the process, certainly no
    articles on the news each night about funding or misappropriations.
    
    We do have a federal auditor general, and I dare to say that the
    previous one Kenneth Dye, pulled no punches and was widely respected
    and quoted in the media.  He was however constrained or muzzled in what
    data he had access to, one of the reasons he quit.  So there is some
    privision for auditing at the federal level....
    
    My bottom line is not whether we trust politicians - there is no
    way of avoiding this, at least not entirely.  The point is that we
    must have feedback in the loop, some accountability.  The fact that
    the recently elected government in BC did an audit and found massive
    discrepancies highlights the fact that there is almost no
    accountability at the provincial level.  I trust provincial politicians
    much less than federal ones, in part because they seem to operate with
    much less scrutiny.  
    
    Alas, the longer term trend is one of increasing power to the
    provinces.  Pierre, we need you!!!
    
    Pieter
    

    re: 02
    
    
    How can Canadians have a better than average standard of living 
    compared to Americans?  Especially with the unemployment rate 
    much higher in Canada than the US. 
    
    Could it be from the generous Canadian Welfare System?
    
    While there are examples in both countries of the welfare system
    gone bad, I feel (from visiting relatives, hearing situations in 
    Canada) that the Canadian system offers more incentives to stay
    on welfare/unemployment.  My cousin worked at a mill two years
    ago taking home over $300/week.  Now he has been laid off for
    two years and brings home $250/week in unemployment.  He's
    single; no children and lives in a modest apartment paid
    by the gov't near Halifax.    
    
    His comment: "Why go get a job when the gov't pays me to stay
    home"  
    
    My response: "What about the other taxpayers; isn't it unfair?"
    
    His response: "So, they pay me to stay home; the pay is better than
    working at McDonald's"
    
    Gang, help me on this one.  
                                 
    Rf
    

    infamous sort of quote
    
    well no....the GST is not an additional tax...it will be replacing the
    manufacturing tax...no we do not expect to bring in any more in total
    taxes due to the GST...
    
    and then later
    
    if the GST does not go through we will be losing *****.** in revenue
    and the national debt will sky rocket
    
    
    
    
    
    
    yeah ....trust me (bend over)
    

	Hi,

	Just thought I would enter something I read in Vogon news yesterday :

     	The UN has published its Quality of Life rankings for 1992. Britain is
	up one place to 10th while Canada has pushed Japan into 2nd place. The
     	rankings are based upon life expectancy, education and income. The 
	first 24 rankings are: Canada, Japan, Norway, Switzerland, Sweden, USA,
     	Austria, France, Netherlands, Britain, Iceland, Germany, Denmark,
     	Finland, Australia, Belgium, New Zealand, Israel, Luxemburg, Barbados,
     	Italy, Ireland, Spain, Hong Kong. In addition, Cuba, one of the poorest,
     	has one of the highest life expectancy and educational attainment 
	levels.

	Found that article a little confusing - Canada is in a big resession
	and yet they have the highest Quality of Life.

	GST :
	I can also say I am not in favour of the GST. I moved to Switzerland
	4 years ago and come back to Canada at least once a year to visit my
	family. Now, instead of just having to fill out the forms to get back
	the money I spent paying Ontario Sales Tax, I have to fill out forms
	to get the GST money back. ;-)


	Peter

		

    Ahhhhh, GST.
    
    Well, my two cents are as follows:
    
    1. I do try to eat out at restaurants less than before.  Food was only
    taxed provincially before, so when everything went up 7% I decided to
    eat in more and take my lunch to work more.  
    
    2. An accounting of having the GST collected applied to the national
    debt (truly a disgrace that has yet to achieve the attention it
    deserves) would be nice, but is essentially a dream.  In Ontario, the
    jerks in charge applied a $5 tax on all tires sold, with the intent to
    channel those funds to a recycling program of some sort.  To date, I
    think maybe 5% of the money collected has been used for the purposes
    intended.  It's just another revenue stream.
    
    3.  On the other hand, I am quite satisfied with the way that lottery
    funds are distributed.  More than once I have seen signs saying
    'provided with funds from XYZ lottery" outside of some community/sports
    centre.  
    
    3.  I await the day when a political party will arise from the ashes of
    what's left of this truy great country to say NO MORE TAXES!!!!!. In
    Toronto, the headlines today proclaimed a 'MIRACLE BUDGET' in crease of
    only 15%.  To do so would be to touch all those sacred cows in this
    country that always seem to escape the knife.  In some respects I wish
    that the so-called generous social net would be lessened so (small 'c'
    conservative tendencies arising) but then again, I have been fortunate
    enough in this life to never have to rely on that.  The previous note
    about pogey versus getting a job is what always comes to mind.
    
    4.  I am also waiting the day when a truly charismatic leader will
    emerge from the tundra to lead this country into the 21st century.  I
    know there will never be another, but someone like a Kennedy or a
    Thatcher (I know, not liked by everybody, but certainly balanced the
    books in UK) would be in order I think.
    
    Or maybe we should just get Trudeau back in power?
    
    Doug
    
    

	re .12

>    Thatcher (I know, not liked by everybody, but certainly balanced the
>    books in UK) would be in order I think.

	Remember that under Thatcher government recurrent spending was
	being offset by the sale of capital assets.

	Tony

>	Remember that under Thatcher government recurrent spending was
>	being offset by the sale of capital assets.

	In most cases those "assets" were loosing money hand-over fist. 

	By selling them, not only did we get extra money, we also cut public
	spending requirments dramatically, and those benefits are on-going.

	Heather 

	re .14

	I see the U.K. public sector borrowing requirement is substantially
	up this year. Is HMG running out of assets to dispose of?

	Tony

    Or more likely, the costs of the recession have started to hit home ...
    high interest rates ... high unemployment ... ageing population and so
    on.
    
    In Canada, we seem to want to dispose of money making assets and
    keep the money losing assets ... no wonder our deficit is so hard
    to chop ...
    
    Stuart
    

	re .16

>    In Canada, we seem to want to dispose of money making assets and
>    keep the money losing assets ... no wonder our deficit is so hard
>    to chop ...

	Sounds like Britain - selling Amersham International before
	British Rail.

	Tony

    Some things are saleable, some are not ...
    
    Would you ride on BR ?
    
    I would, if there was no other way ...
    
    
    Would YOU invest in BR ?
    
    I sure wouldn't !
    
    
    Would you BUY BR ?
    
    Not on your nellie!
    

	re .18

	So you would say that a government that expected to be able to
	sell BR was off its chump?

	Tony

    So, show me a government that isn't one way or another !
    
    Stuart

>	I see the U.K. public sector borrowing requirement is substantially
>	up this year. Is HMG running out of assets to dispose of?

	Well, they did to cut taxes.

	The theory being that with more money to spend, we will help pull
	ourselves out of the recession.

	Heather

    well, that's more than our Ontario Government did yesterday ...
    
    We were socked with an additional 1.5% Ontario Tax (Which brings it up
    to 54.5% of Federal Tax)
    
    Also, we were hit with a 14% surtax on incomes over $53K.
    
    Ouchhhhhhh!
    
    Stuart

    RE: .22
    
    Well, Stuart, the surtax shouldn't hurt - you work for DEC :-)
    
    Otto.

Surtax will not affect anyone in DEC!

Mario