Conference kaosws::canada

    Ontario is in for tough times.  Business groups, business leaders, even
    labour groups are all bemoaning the idiocy and naivete of the NDP. 
    
    Personally, I think the NDP are a crock.  They were passed the reins of
    power because the Ontario voting public didn't like the other two
    options. The provincial coffers will be drained supporting the social
    programs of the NDP and the taxes will skyrocket beyond the ridiculous
    rates which are now imposed. 
    
    It's estimated that Ontario residence pay on the average 49% of their
    salaries (that's 49%!!!) in taxes.  The NDP government takes that
    hard-earned cash and pays an unemployed couple with one child the
    equivalent of $40,000/year for not working.  The average starting
    salary for a gradualte engineer is $28,000.  What kind of stupidity is
    this?  A person being introduced into the workforce would have to be
    utterly clueless to try and make a living at honest labour when the
    NDP will pay more to have a person drink beer and play bingo.
    
    I dearly love this province.  I bitterly resent having to pay for
    other people's stupidity, lassitude, and ignorance. 
    
    The bottom line is that taxes will go up.  The NDP will make certain
    that any viable business venture, hardworking individual, or prosporing
    corporation is driven into the dust supporting the weight of its
    beaurocracy and brain-dead social programs.  Goodbye jobs, good-bye
    opportunities.
    
    Kris
              

    Well, at least Pink Floyd isn't curtailing the Grand Canal budget.....

    ;-)

Kris,

Could you elaborate on that 49% taxes business?  I would like to understand
how much the average single and, say, the average two kid family must pay 
if they make a salary of, say, $40,000.

Oh, and by the way, wouldn't someone have to make $60k to be able to get $40k
from Unemployment Insurance?

thanks,

//rick//

    I heard it on CBC; there was a study sponsored by the Canadian
    Federation of Labour and done by one of those three-name accounting
    firms (Hookem, Rookem and Payne, or somesuch) to determine what
    percentage of a persons salary goes to taxes (income, sales, property,
    hidden, etc).  The finding was that Ontario and Quebec residence
    pay between 47 and 55 percent with the average being 49%.  There
    was no further demographic or geographic breakdown.
    
    I did my own calculations on expenditure and tax.  Keep in mind
    that: 
    
    	groceries are not taxed but the carrier, store, employees and
    	producers are all taxed.  This translates to an approximate 15%
    	uplift in price.
    
    	gasoline, cigarettes and booz are taxed at about 70 - 80%
    
    	everything you buy gets 15% visible tax and about the 
    	equivalent hidden tax
    
    	you pay property tax and income tax
    
    
    With all of this, I figure that the 49% figure is low.
    
    The Unemployment Insurance is different from welfare.  Currently
    under the NDP proposal for welfare, a couple with one child will
    be eligible to receive cash, subsidized housing, medical and dental
    expenses, up-keep on property, clothing and food alowances which
    tally up to an equivalent of a $40,000 income level.  This is
    regardless of the persons work history or contribution to any fund,
    or UI policy.  There is a certain path to economic ruin; pay people
    to be unproductive.  The Communist Bloc countries are learning this
    lesson.  My Rae is oblivious to it.
    
    I think Bob Rae needs a severe shot of reality.
    
    Kris

    Got to agree with the base note .. just thinking about it is
    depressing !
    
    .4 doesn't provide what the actual percentage is for taxes, so here's
    my cut at it:
    For a family income of about $40k, with one child
    
          Federal/Prov. income tax          - 52.0
          Property tax                      -  3.75    note 1
          Gasoline/Liquor/beer etc          -  2.625   note 2
          Provincial Sales Tax / GST        -  1.875   note 3
          Misc. (Benefits, etc. )           -   .900
                                             ==========
                                              61.15 %
    
    
              Note 1 - Property tax = $1500/yr    1500/40000 = 3.75%
              Note 2 - Gas/Booze at 70% tax rate, estimate spending approx. 
                       $1500 /yr   1500x.7= $1050    1050/40000 = 2.625%
              Note 3 - PST/GST - estimate spending at $5000/yr, taxed at
                       15%   5000x.15=$750   750/40000 = 1.875%
    
              
    So, that leaves about 39% of your gross income to be spent on:
          - the other 30% for gas/booze
          - the other 75% for consumer goods 
          - a mortgage (mine chews up another 28% out of gross income)
          - anything else you can think of !
    
    Now I'm really depressed ...
    

    re .5
    
    The 52% for income taxes isn't right, because that's your marginal
    rate (i.e. the tax on the last dollar you earn).  The average rate
    on all the dollars you earn is much lower ... at 40k income it's
    closer to 25%
    
    Stuart

	$1,500 for gas AND booze?????????

	we were paying $4.00 for a bottle of beer, that's only  375 bottles a 

	year - thats only 3.5 bottles of beer each a week, at least you wont
	get a hangover!


	Heather

    	$4.00 for a bottle of beer????????
    
    	What part of the country are you from ?
    
    	The Beer Store down the street sells a case of 24 for about $24.85.
    	In my books that works out to about a $1.03 a pint..( including
    deposit ). According to your calulations that changes it to about 13.6
    beers a week.
    
    Any closer to that hangover yet?
    
    John

>    	$4.00 for a bottle of beer????????
>    
>    	What part of the country are you from ?
 
	I was drinking in bars around Toronto, Ottawa, Kingston, and North
	Bay - North Bay was about $1 cheaper.
   	But this was a bottle, not a pint!

>    	The Beer Store down the street sells a case of 24 for about $24.85.
 
	Then either the people who run the bars are rip-off merchants, or 
	somehow the government takes a slice, and forces them to pay more
	than beer store prices.

>   	In my books that works out to about a $1.03 a pint..( including
>    deposit ). According to your calulations that changes it to about 13.6
>    beers a week.
 
	Well, my brother had some of those bottles, they weren't pints as far   
	I could tell, 440 ml I think, a pint is 570ml which is 30% more.
	So, $1.03 + 30 % = $1.34 for a pint if bought from a store
	    �4.00 + 30 % = $5.20 for a pint if bought in bars 

	This is using the UK pint measure, do you use this, the US, or your
	own pint measure?

	Not that it really matters, I was talking of bar prices, as that's where
	I normally drink.

	Heather

    A pint in Canada is an Imperial pint as opposed to the US pint ...
    so what you call a pint is identical to ours.  I think the idea of
    a bottle = pint is just the idea of a typical amount one drinks
    rather than being physically that amount.  (Like a cord of firewood
    is rarely a true cord, but is usually a 12" or 16" face cord).
    
    Anyway, I'll ave ahf, ta!
    
    Stuart

Are you saying that there isn't a big difference between pub prices and
beer store prices in the U.K.?

Both in Canada and in the U.S., beer is pretty cheap at the packie, but
costs quite a bit in bars.  How do you think the bar makes its money?

	Yup there's a difference, from what I can gather here, a pint from
	a bar Canada is more than 4 times the cost of a pint from a beer store.


	UK 1 pint dry Copperhead cider from store is �0.83

	(This is from Savacentre which is cheaper than normal off-licences, and
	 worked out from �2.56 for 4x440ml cans)

	1 pint dry Copperhead cider from a pub is �1.50, less than twice the 
	cost of a pint from a supermarket.
	

	Heather

    A pint in Ottawa Valley terms is a twelve ounce bottle of beer. A case
    is 24 bottles not 12, which in some circles is known as a box of beer.
    As far as the price of beer in a bar it averages around the 3.50 mark.
    The main reason for the difference beteween that and what you pay at the
    beer store is known as capitalism. Call me cheap but since I was old
    enough to buy beer the majority of my drinking was done from beer I had 
    bought at the beer store.
    
    John

	Wally, (sorry...John)

	Why don't you come down this weekend, I've a fresh box and
	nobody to drink it with...it'll be just like old times, puking
	on our shoes and all.

	Charlie

	ps You know where I live, jus' down'd'line past kerp, where the
	beer is cold and the sheep are afraid.

    RE:.-.1,-.2
    
    Chuck
    
    When you were talking about hang-overs, I thought you were talking
    about the thing that keeps Wally's belt buckle warm.
    
    Wally
    
    ps You know where I live, where the beer is cool, and the sheep were
    nervous, but they're in therapy now.
    
    Dog