Conference kaosws::canada

    This is an article reprinted (without permission) from today's Boston
    Globe:  
    
    (Reuters)
    [Headline] Police officer is slain in Quebec during Mohawk Indian
    protest
    
    [Text]
    MONTREAL-- Mohawk Indians trying to protect their ancestral lands from
    being turned into a golf course fought a fierce gun battle with Quebec
    police yesterday. One policeman was killed.
        The fight errupted after about 100 Quebec policemen in riot gear
    stormed an illegal barricade set up on a hilltop just outside Oka, a
    small own 20 miles west of Montreal. Cpl. Marcel Lemay, 31, was
    pronounced dead a short time later by a Montreal hospital. He had been
    shot in the face.
        The Indians, who are heavily armed, are trying to prevent the Oka
    town council from carrying out a plan to expand a 9-hole golf course by
    clearing land they claim as their own.
        A provincial police spokesman said the Mohawks opened fire on
    police after they tried to enforce a June 30 court injunction requiring
    the removal of the roadblocks outside Oka. But several Mohawks said the
    police started the gun battle even though there were Mohawk women and
    children behind the barricade. 
    [end of text] 
    
    Tom

    <<< Note 329.0 by MQOFS::DESROSIERS "Lets procrastinate....tomorrow" >>>
                   -< WAR, the indians are on the war path! >-

>>>>WE ARE AT WAR,
    
>>>>Now I wonder if Canada will come to our rescue, and what about the
    British?
    
    Jean
    
You mean Quebec Povincial Police is having a problem and you want
intervention from the rest of Canada? It's hardly a federal
problem when a golf course, encircled by Mohawk reservation land,
is in dispute. I believe that the issue is between the Oka town
administration and the Mohawk nation. I believe that if the
Mohawks take the town of Oka, then it becomes a federal problem.

calvin

BTW, on my first year at UBC, I had a French tutor who was full
blood Mohawk. He spoke French better then our Cnanadian
professor.

    Jean,
    
    What about the British?
    
    Putting my British hat firmly back on my head for a moment.
    
    Sorry mate.  We gave responsibility for the whole ball of wax to you
    guys back in 1982.  Not our problem.
    
    And why would you want the British involved anyway?
    
    Cheers,
    	Bob

    
    It was reported on "the National" at 6 pm PDT 11-Jul-1990 ANIK-1
    that the policeman who was killed was quite possibly killed by another
    policeman.  Shot in the mouth.  33 years old.
    
    I did not see any coverage on this incident on the american telecasts.
    
    "The National" coverage ran 10 minutes.  Very interesting reporting.
    
    

    WELL I guess NOW we know who our freinds are if Canada will not come to
    our rescue and if the British army won't as well, then I guess we will
    have to appeal to Gorby, after all he's got all these nuclear weapons
    just waiting to be used somewhere.
    
    Seriously, the whole thing was a mess done by the Oka administration
    and the provincial police.  The indians had been occupying the
    territory for the last six months, 99% of the population was AGAINST
    the expansion of the golf course, the only ones for were most of the 
    town's administrators who were also members of said golf course and
    other members of the golf course and the contractor.  It would have
    remained funny if the policeman had not been shot (BTW he was shot in
    the arm and the bullet ricoched off a bone to enter his body under his
    arm piercing his heart, even tough he was wearing a bulletproof vest).
    
    Jean
    

    RE:  329.2
    
    >> federal problem.
    
    You mean, like Quebec 'National' Assembly...or 'Nationalistic'
    feelings?
     
    JP
    
    (Sorry Jean, I just COULDN'T resist!)

Guess the Injuns don't have a unique society...

    Heard an interesting analysis somewhere or other related to this and
    Meech and all that ... (cannot remember exactly where I heard it
    though) 
    
    .......
    
    Approximately 85% of the land area of the Province of Qu�bec was never
    actually ceded to the province or crown, either by treaty or conquest.
    If Qu�bec declares itself sovereign, and fails to recognize aboriginal
    rights, the Indian nations will claim their lands back as another
    separate nation, leaving Qu�bec as a slim part of what it is now,
    losing all kinds of natural and industrial resources.  Leaving Qu�bec
    bereft of most of its natual resources would probably bankrupt it due
    to the cost of importing all the raw materials and power it currently
    uses for manufacturing.
    
    .....
    
    Judging by the climate in Oka, and the resolve the native peoples are
    starting to show to obtain aboriginal rights such as in Manitoba, I
    get the impression that Canada and Qu�bec has more to worry about than 
    Qu�bec's cession!
    
    Stuart

    
    	RE:.7
    I'm not the type of person to normally write but I am offended and
    appalled by the ignorance of people to what the native americans
    are going through. It takes an act of aggression to make people
    believe that the natives will not bough under acts to take away
    the lands they already have. I am mostly offended by the use of
    "injun" I guess it takes all kinds.
    

    Hmmm, this is  interesting that there are wide fluctuations in
    reporting of this story. I retyped verbatim form the Globe (Reuters
    news service) in .1, and it seems that there are varying
    interpretations of this. 
    
    Naturally, it is a tragedy when someone gets shot like this. My gut
    instinct was that the town council was bullying the Mohawks using the
    "White Man's" legal system (rich & powerful interests AND golfers) to
    get what they wanted. I'm sure that this disagreement has been going on
    for some time, and it finally escalated to this.
    
    Any other comments?
    Tom

    It seems that it wasn't so much the legal as the political system,
    where the elected representatives act supposedly on behalf of the
    people "for the benefit of the town".  Well, sometimes that benefit
    becomes terribly questionable.
    
    Let's just say it's the old adage "Power corrupts and absolute power
    corrupts absolutely".  Town councils often seem to fit somewhere in
    that range.
    
    Stuart
    

I'd be willing to bet that a resolution to the expansion of the
golf course IF the Oka town administration support the public
gambling that the American Mohawks wanted.

Interesting that Paul Harvey news out of Chicago (broadcast on
Denver's KOA news radio) at noon did not report the death of the
Province de Quebec Provincial policeman.

calvin

    Re. 10 
           >> newspaper reports...
    
    From the Montreal Gazette:
    
    OKA - Mohawk Indians yesterday threatened to blow up the Mercier Bridge
    if natives are injured in any resumption of violence by provincial
    police officers against their people.
         The threat came in the wake of a bloody clash between Mohawks and 
    police at Oka early yesterday that left one Surete' du Quebec officer dead.
    The violence began around dawn when a squad of about 100 provincial police
    officers moved in to clear a dirt road through a piece of woodland  the
    Mohawks claim as their own. The Mohawks have barricades on the road
    since March, and the town of Oka had called police.
         Officers drove natives away from the barricade with tear gas and
    concussion grenades at about 8:30 a.m., but gunfire erupted after police
    had moved in to remove the dirt mounds and cement blocks. In the exchange
    of gunfire, Cpl. Marcel Lemay, 31 was fatally shot.
    Police and native versions of the conflict varied sharply, each accusing
    the other of firing first. 
    Natives contend that Lemay shot himself or was shot by other officers.
    The Surete' said he was gunned down by a Mohawk who leaped out of a trench
    in the woods and fired at a group of officers.
    
    (From the July 12 1990 issue of Montreal Gazette - the first 6 paragraphs) 
                Written by Alexander Norris and Mike King. 
    
    FaZari.

Some people will look for anything to be offended by.

Does "Indian" offend?  If not, then why does "Injun" offend?

If it really does, I'll never use it again; I thought it was just a
"western" pronounciation, and not a derogatory term.

/john

"P.S.: I'm offended by "Yank" -- but doubt that the British will ever stop
using it.

    Having talk to my parents in Cornwall last night they mentioned
    that the Warriors (the "law enforcement" group - remember the note
    about the gambling problem) from the Indian reserve outside of
    Cornwall, Ontario were planning on going up to Oka to support these
    people.
    
    I don't think that the problem in Oka is related to the gambling
    issue in New York state. They are separate issuses.
    
    Alan

    John,
    
    Why would we British ever want to YANK your chain?
    
    8-)
    	Bob

    Reported in the Valley Daily news of South King County, Seattle
    Washington.  Auburn, really.
    
    	Date Friday the 13th,  1990
    	Oka, Quebec. Mohawk Indians opened talks Thursday with the Quebec
    gov. after a police officer was killed in a gunfight, but swore
    to keep their barricades up until police leave and they get immunity
    from prosecution.  
    	The confrontation is over gov. plans to build a golf course
    addition the Indians say encroaches on their ancestral land.
    	Police brought in reinforcements THursday, bringing up about
    1,000 the number of officers in the area.
    	The Mohawks dug trenches and strengthened their concrete block
    and barbed wire barriers with crushed police cars as they prepared
    for a possible showdown.   
    	Dozens of police wearing flak jackets and carrying shotguns
    were seen patrolling their new sandbagged positions reinforced with
    concrete blocks. 
    	All day, the two sides faced each other across their barricades,
    about 200 Mohawks at the top of a hill on the highway that goes
    through this picturesque town, 18 miles west of montreal, and the
    police at the bottom of the hill.
    	Late Thursday, Quebec's native affairs minister, John Ciaccia,
    arrived.  He told reporters he would say nothing after his talks
    with the Mohawks.
    	"The police have to retreat completely from the area before
    we can ever work out a deal with Ciaccia," Mohawk spokesman Ellen
    Gabriel said.
    	"Ciaccia said he came here because he has a sense of responsibility
    to help us.  Frankly we don't trust the provincial gov. very much
    but we have to have faith in Ciaccia for the moment."
    	A Ciaccia aide said earlier the minister was negotiating with
    members of the Mohawk band council and their Warriors Society, trying
    to resolve the dispute. 
    	Mohawks wearing camouflage and carring revolvers, hunting rifles
    and assault rifles spread into the golf course.  They raised the
    yellow and red Warrior Society flag over the immaculate lawns and
    commandeered a fleet of golf cars to ferry leaders and messages
    between encampments.
    	The Mohawks claim title to a small pine forest the town of Oka
    wants to cut down so the local golf course can add nine holes. 
    Police intervened at the request of Oka's mayor after Mohawks refused
    to tear down a small barricade they built four months ago.
    	Early Wednesday, a raiding force of about 100 Quebec police
    attacked the barricade.  They retreated after Cpl. Marcel Lemay,
    31, was shot fatally and the tear gas they launched blew back in
    their faces. 
    	Police were not sure whether Lemay was shot by a Mohawk or by
    a fellow policeman.  
    
    End of article.....
    
    not the end of this story though.....
    
    
    jim mckinnon @bwa
    orcas::mckinnon_ja
    DTN 540-1094
    
    
    

    Also, the mayor of Oka was moved to a hidden location.
    This was done for his safety............
    

    	RE:14
    Yes, depending on who you talk to "Indian" does offend. We are not
    from India, but are Native Americans. I don't have any bad feelings
    toward people from India, just we are trying to get our own indentity.
    Some people just don't think before they talk. I don't want to argue
    it's just I have seen and felt the prejudice through the years.
    					John Bigcrane PDO
    					MTHOOD::BIGCRANEJO
    					Portland,Oregon

    
    In the Seattle Times on Friday the 13th, 1990 the story was a bit
    different.
    
    It was stated in the Auburn paper that 1000 police had been placed
    on standby in the area.
    
    The Seattle paper had the number at "dozen's".  
    
    Both bylines were "AP".....
    
    jim mckinnon 

    	Another update.  The stores are running out of food on the REZ
    and the townspeople were on the telly suggesting that the Mohwaks
    return to hunting off the land.
    
    This is the info that gets to the west coast of usa.  Chek-tv 6

    Re: the word "Indian",
    
    This appellation to the local inhabitants of north-america was only
    given because Cristopher Columbus "tought" he had reached India. 
    Remains from this "error" are the West Indies, what we call corn "bl�
    d'inde" (indian wheat) and the name still given to native americans or
    what we call Am�rindiens.  I don't think there is any derogatory 
    intention in using that name, and if you do, please educate us in the
    proper name used to designate your people (just as I think it's
    improper to call residents of the United States "Am�ricains", since
    technicaly ALL residents of north, central and south america ARE
    Am�ricains)
    
    Jean
    

And before you tell us it's "Native Americans", please tell me why I'm not
one of them, too, since I was born here.

/john

    I'll settle for Amerindian, since I too was born here. As were my
    parents, and (on my mom's side) about 15 generations of parents before
    that. My dad's folks were born in the U.K.
    
    Aboriginal or any variation won't work, because people will think
    `Australia'.
    
    ...laura

    	Native Americans refer to people native to the americas. Since
    some was there to see you or your ancestors arrive, then you are
    not native.
    

    	Considering that we all go back to Adam and Eve, I think it would
    be safe to say that we were all here first. We also know that things
    got all messed up at the Tower Of Babel, that's why we now have
    bilingual money in Canada.
    	Another interesting thing to ponder is, Adam and Eve probably
    didn't have any belly buttons which makes me think of playing water
    polo on the Grand Canal. If only I could figure out a way to keep the
    horses from drowning, this could become another of Canada's National
    Sports!

    	Another interesting thought:

    	Nothing is better than having Brian Mulrooney as Primeminister.

    	A ham sandwich is better than nothing.

    	Therefore, a ham sandwich is better than.....

    Glenn

    I note that CBC commonly uses the phrase "aboriginal people", but this
    seems to cover both the "Indians" and the Inuit. Are the Inuit "native
    Americans?
    
    Tony

    
    What about the term/designation Indigenous Canadians/U.S.Americans.etc?
    

    I prefer the expression "first Peoples" (capital 'P').
    
    Scooter
    (1/4 Micmac)

Who gets to be "first Peoples"?

The first hundred over the land bridge in the Bering Sea?

People migrated into the Americas for a _long_ time.

I'm just as native an American as you; my ancestors came from the East
a few hundred years ago; yours came from the west much longer ago.

How about not using racial labels at all...

/john

    re .30
    
> I'm just as native an American as you; my ancestors came from the East
> a few hundred years ago; yours came from the west much longer ago.

    "To an American a hundred years is a long time. Viewed from any
    perspective other than their own, the Caucasian inhabitants of
    North America are parvenus.
    
> How about not using racial labels at all...
    
    Kind of difficult when the issues you are discussing are based on
    ethnicity.
    
    Tony

    Scooter,
    
    	Are you a Big Micmac?

    
    I prefer Glenn's historical overview and the ham sandwhich
    logic..??????..I think...
    

    re -.1
    
    	Thank you.
    
    	One question though. Wouldn't an enema with horns be painful?

    
    	I knew the Bering Land Bridge was going to be used, and that
    is just a theory. I believe our people have always been here and
    the land bridge theory was brought up just to satisfy their beliefs.
    

    So if you are an evolutionist, man evolved on two sides of the planet.
    That is like lightning striking the same place 30 trillion times. Or
    winning lotto 6/49 every time you play.

    If you believe in creation, which I do, God plunked the American
    natives where they are (Known as Tower Of Babel Transporter Effect or
    TOBTE). I'd tend to believe this theory as God did scatter the people
    throughout the earth as told in Genesis. This could mean he plunked
    them there or lead them across the Land Bridge. Still, man had one
    beginning no matter which way you look at it.

    At any rate, I'm getting the impression that some Natives believe that
    they are special. Well, this could be. Just about every race has some
    similar belief so why should American Natives be any different.

    Glenn

    
    Yes Glen..VERY painful....it makes me do whirly twirlies for hours
    on end...
    

    If I, being of Irish and French descent *but* born here in the states,
    am not Native American, than what am I?  Just plain old American?
    
    I think I'm confused.
    
    Cathy_who_wishes_she_was_Canadian_but_don't_ask_me_to_explain_that_logic_to_
    you_because_I_just_know_that_I_want_to_be.

    Cathy,
    
    	Your statement is interesting. Why do you wish you were Canadian?
    
    
    Glenn

    Always a smart*ss in every group ;-)
    

    	Come on Cathy, I'm serious! Why do you wish you were a Canadian? I
    want to know what other people find so attractive about Canadian
    citizenship. Is it our great sense of humour?
    
    Glenn

    
    Back to the topic people.  Are more cops getting killed?  Are any 
    Indians/natives/abo's/first Peoples *?*  The news story is not
    getting reported on in Seattle, Washington.  
    
    Seattle = Chief Se*lth.  Famous Indian Chief.
    Washington = Famous White man Chief.
    
    

    
    
    Re. 42 by ORCAS::MCKINNON   -< get back to the topic ..>-
    
    A GAZETTE newspaper report filed by Jeff Heinrich & Greame Hamilton
    ===================================================================
    
    CHATEAUGUAY -  Hundreds of white residents milled around a shopping
    centre just outside the Kahnawake reserve last night, angrily
    protesting the native blockade of the Mercier Bridge.
       Some of them were ready to attack anyone who looked like a native.
    About 9pm provincial and municipal police had to form a human ring to
    protect a teenage girl whom the crowd thought was a Mohawk. The crowd
    had started chasing her when she came from woods besides the Mohawk 
    barricade and entered a shopping centre parking lot where the crowd
    had gathered.
                 "Go back home" they yelled, hurling obscenities at the
    teen.  A 22 year old man carrying a skull and crossbones flag, was part
    of the crowd that had chased the girl.
    "We can't go there, so they have no business coming here. If we'd
    caught her, she would have got a good beating " he said.
    An hour later, the mob spotted another woman they believed was a native
    inside a car, and surrounded the vehicle.  About 100 people pounded on
    the vehicle and screamed at the woman as a frightened boy stared out the 
    window. Police officers arrived in riot gear and pushed the crowd back
    with their nightsticks. They escorted the car out of the parking lot and
    on to the street, where it quickly drove off.
    The crowd then turned on the police chanting "chicken, chicken" at them.
    In the afternoon the crowd tried to block an ambulance coming off the
    reserve. A pregnant Mohawk woman in labor was inside the ambulance.
    Surete' du Quebec officers drove the crowd back and forced the ambulance
    through. The crowd spent most of the day taunting the Mohawks just inside
    the reserve as they camped behind a trailer on the road.
    Chateauguay residents watched them with binoculars from atop bus shelters.
       
        Two white men became the first victims of the mob, which first 
    gathered at noon. Hearing a rumor that two Mohawk women were inside the
    supermarket buying groceries to take back to the reserve - with police
    permission - the crowd moved in.
    
    While the women escaped by the back door, two young white men showed up
    in army fatigues, and were chased and beaten.
    Three cars were kicked and a windshield was smashed with a motorcycle
    helmet. Surete' officers moved in and dragged away the men who had been
    attacked, pulling them with their nightsticks at the men's throat, and
    sheltering them behind an empty store next to the Highway 138 barricade.
    While the crowd jeered, a sister of the one of the beaten men tearfully
    pleaded for his release "My brother is not a Warrior" said Darlene Walsh.
    The police then drove the two white men who had been mistaken by the
    mob for Mohawks to a safe location while the crowd jeered. 
    
       (From the front page &  of July 14 Montreal Gazette)

    		Kennebec Journal - July 18, 1990
    
    OKA, Que (AP) - Negotiations resumed Tuesday between Mohawk Indians and
    Canadia officals amid reports that armed forces were on standby and
    that vigilante groups were preparing to use force to open a bridge near
    Montr�al.
    	     The bridge was blocked last week by armed Mohawks who are
    demanding that Quebec withdraw hundreds of provincial police offices
    who have been on patrol since a police officer was killed there last
    week.
    	     The Oka Indians have been disputing with Quebec officials for
    months over a golf course expansion that they claim would encroach upon
    their sacred land. People in Chateauguay, south of Montr�al, who have
    been blocked from easy access to the city by Mohawk barricades, have
    been asking for military intervention. Many said they now have to spend
    an extra two hours a day traveling to and from work.
    	     A report Tuesday in Montr�al La Presse said a group of local
    citizens was arming itself and was prepared to storm the Kahnawake
    reserve if nothing was done to open the bridge, " If the police don't
    intervene and disarm the Warriors, we will take measures into our own
    hands and we can do it," an unidentified man told La Presse, "We don't
    know who these people are," a Chateauguay police officer said, "But we
    are taking this report very seriously".
    	    Meanwhile, an armed forces officer who visited the Longue
    Pointe military base in Montr�al told the Montr�al Gazette Monday he
    saw a convoy of military trucks, hidden from view, as well as armored
    personnel carries, communications vehicles and anti-tank weapons. Some
    administrative and support personnel and equipment have been moved to
    the Longue Pointe supply base "to wait for an evolution of the
    siuation," said Capt. Alain Lefrancois, Quebec public affairs officer
    for the Department of National Defence, "These could be used to
    faciliate Canadian Forces support to provincial authorities if
    assistance is requested," Lefrancois said.
    	    A National Defence spokesman in Ottawa denied there were any
    unusual troop movements and said the department would not intervene
    unless asked to do so by provicial authorities.

    >>>
    A National Defence spokesman in Ottawa denied there were any
        unusual troop movements and said the department would not intervene
        unless asked to do so by provicial authorities.
    <<<
    
    Interesting. Considering that no province has jurisdiction over
    the regular forces ... they have to go through the Feds. The feds
    have been playing "Crisis ? What Crisis ?" to themselves.
    
    re: Big Micmac. 
    
    8^)
    
    re: who's first ...
    
    where do you draw the line - well, considering that there is evidence
    of descendants of the Micmac that goes back to between 7000 and
    13000 years spread from Northern Labrador to east coast U.S. and
    the spread between then and even the Viking's explorations would
    seem to be at least one order of magnitude.
    
    But that's all stuff and nonsense - Treaties were made between the
    descendants of European settlers and the people who were living
    and using the land before the settlers arrived - treaties which
    have been ignored, abused or violated outright. Some disputes before
    the courts go back to well before confederation - the local
    settler's governments have in most cases (to paraphrase) said -
    OK, of these umpteen sq. miles of your land, you only use X%, so
    you reserve that, and we'll figure out how to divide the rest -
    and meanwhile, the rest, while being "worked out" gets settled, and
    all of a sudden we have a fait accompli, with mobs of "civilized"
    folk, demanding the army go in and clear out all those "unreasonable"
    people so that they can use a bridge built on land that their gov't
    didn't even acquire legally.
    
    But might makes right, right ?
    
    or does it ?
    
    Scooter
           

Canuks;

  What the &*^% has happened to "us".  Here is a country that is supposed
to be a world leader, and we are acting no better than South Africa, Iran,
and the rest of the so called scum.

  Where is the leadership??  Imagine, the Red Cross needs to supply food to a
group in Canada that is blocked from going to the store.  Something that we
can all be very proud of!  

  Hey guys....where is the uproar over the fact that morons are playing with
people lives, and our world image like it was a school ground.

  What happened to adults talking to each other?

    

    If every person who was ever deposessed of his land tried to get it
    back, we would ALL be in deep doo-doo.  Just look at what the English
    did when they deported the Accadians in 1755, do you all think they
    should get their land back?  What about people who were expropriated to
    build airports, bridges and roads?
    
    What the Mohaks have done in Oka, is protect the land they NOW have,
    this I think is right, altough I do NOT approve of the violent way they
    have been doing it.  But what the warriors have done on the south 
    shore IS wrong, and they should stop doing it if they want  to keep
    public opinion on their side, and public support is fading fast since
    they keep a LOT of people hostage by tying up that bridge.
    
    
    Jean
    

An AP dispatch in the Denver Post said that the Canadian
government is going to buy the land in dispute. Is that true?

calvin

    That is the plan ... IFFFFFF the standoff ends!  No negotiation with
    guns at heads.

<<No negotiation with guns at heads.

Why are they holding toilets hostage?
  

    
    I went to Campbell River on Vancouver Island over the week-end and
    there was a symbolic roadblock set up by the *indians* that live 
    in the area.  Some artwork was displayed and they had signs that
    made remarks about being *prisoners* for the last 110 years.  
    
     

    
    It's a symbolic toilet Pat...not a real one..
    

A 'symbolic toilet'?!?  You must be daft!

"Oi, mate!  Wot yer doing on my bloody floor?", says the gaffer.

"Oooh!  I am so deeply sorry but I didn't realise that your toilet was
 only a symbol.", said Malcolm Milquetoast.

    
    Sorry mate...must have been the prune daquiri's I had for lunch....
    

    Prune daiquiris, bran muffins and jalipeno peppers.

    Symbolic toilets will help you get ahead.

    
    With that lunch menu Glenn the term being regular would be symbolic...
    

CNN reported that the Oka town folks requested Canadian Forces to
help in the dispute.

calvin

    Now, if Quebec were an independent nation, how would they have sorted
    this lot out?
    
    Tony

    They would have held a referendum, which is certainly what Newfoundland
    would do!
    
    
    Or they would have held a whirly-twirly festival.
    
    8^)

    
    The Quebec government has requested that the military man the
    blockades. There has been no request for direct military action
    against the Mohawk barricades.
    
    LtGen Foster, commander of the army, stated in a press conference
    that troops would not be on the line before next week. Also that
    the disposition of troops would be under direction of the QPP but
    that no direct action would be taken without consoltation and approval
    of both the Quebec and Federal governments.
    
    He also said that the situation required much more study as the
    Mohawk position is very well fortified and the inhabitants were
    well armed. It is not a position where you can just take a bulldozer
    and knock it over.
    
    We'll see what happens next week.
    
    Roger

The Indians in Northern Vermont, bolstered by a successful suit allowing them
to fish without fishing licenses, are now suing for return of all of their
ancestral lands.  This includes all of Vermont, all of New Hampshire, and
much of Northern Massachusetts...

/john

    Sounds reasonable.

    After all the white man gained control of the area by force of arms,
    which is the same right by which Iraq today holds Kuwait.
    
    Tony

    
    .61 must be talking about the Abenakis under a leader named
    Homer St.Francis. 
    
    A Chief at the Oka settlement in a recent M/Gazette article claimed
    that he has been assaulted and intimidated by armed Mohawk Warriors
    who he claims are NOT the legitimate representatives of the Mohawk
    Nation/Society.
    
    An editorial in a Gazette article referred to the Mohawk Warriors 
    (mind you not the Mohawk Nation) as a "band of thugs.. who are
    terrorizing everybody including their own people.."
    
    About 27 of the so-called Mohawk Warriors manning the blockades in
    Oka, Quebec are said to be wanted in the State of New York for 
    various criminal acts according to a police chief from New York.
    
    Meanwhile the disputed land has been sold to the Federal Govt. so
    that it could be given back to the Mohawk Nation as soon as the
    blockades are removed. 
    
    FaZari.

    It was reported that most of the natives on the reservation at Oka
    have upwards of 15 firearms per household!  That's probably more
    fire-arms per person than the Canadian army!

    A few facts,
    
    The Mohawks do not recognize the governement of Qu�bec and seem to hold
    the federal governement in contempt yet they still cash all their
    welfare and unimployement checks from both levels of governement, they
    have all the benefits brought by the whole of society (medicare...)
    without paying ANY taxes.
    
    If they want to live by themselves, fine, but we all should not have to
    pay for that privilege.
    
    Jean
    

    How much do you think the land stolen from the First Peoples costs
    ? (Not counting, of course, treaty lands, which were freely bargained
    for, and which same treaties are almost worthless considering the
    number of times that they have been violated by the white man, who,
    by the way, also created the laws that are used to "resolve" disputes,
    and rebuff those natives who sought and seek redress).
    
    How many centuries worth of welfare & unemployment cheques do *you*
    think would be sufficient recompense for such treatment.
    
    There are efforts underway to bring to the World Court charges that
    the occupation of Canada by the current & all previous Canadian
    govt's is illegal according some agreement document that existed in England
    in the last century *prior* to the BNA Act and which has neither
    been negated nor revoked. I'm hazy on this, but I _think_ it's related
    to some mutual defence pact between Natives & the Brits against
    the Americans (well before the Fenians, I think). These efforts
    at the world court have been going for the last year or so.
    
    Won't it be pleasant to wake up some day and find that you are a
    member of an "occupying" force ?
    
    Maybe it would be better to just finally wake up some day.
    
    Scooter                                   

    
    	Well said, And it's not all Native Americans on the reservation
    that are on welfare, etc. And if you counted how many are and to
    the number are not Native's is probably less than you think.
    					Bigcrane
     

    From the front page of a BTO Free Press newspaper.
    SPOTLIGHT, AP
    [ The Canadian goverment's decision to negotiate with Mohawks who have
      blocked a bridge into Montreal in a land dispute has sparked fears
      that the move sets a dangerous precedent. Other Indian groups are 
      closely watching the dispute, and analysts are concerned that if the
      armed Mohawks win concessions, there will be rapid spread of violence
      to press land claims.  Page 3A for.. ] Monday Aug.20th Jeffery Ulbrich.   
    
    "Any outcome at Oka short of a bloodbath will send a powerful message
     to native people across Canada whose grievances far outweigh those at
     Kanesatake."     Desmond Morton, Univ. of Toronto historian.
    
    
     Question: Are these statements/analysis very accurate or not ?

    	Yes.
    
    	To be quite frank, I wish the governments would fix all this up so
    I wouldn't have to listen to it on the news over and over and over and
    over and over and over and over and over and over...............

...don't you have an 'on/off' switch on your Victrola, Glenn?

    What mystifies me is why the police threaten to bash white peoples'
    skulls in when they block roads, but they just sit and watch when
    Indians do.
    
    ...laura

    	That shouldn't be such a mystery, the Indians have got automatic
    weapons and intercontinental ballistic tomahawks. (ICBT)

    General Custard

    re .72
    
    I thought it was the mysterious desire of the Surete de Quebec to
    bash heads of all colours that had got the situation to its present
    mess.
    
    Tony

    Re land claims,
    
    Where do you draw the line? or how far back in time do you go to
    establish possesion of land?  Can Qu�bec claim Labrador back from
    Newfoundland?  Can France claim back ALL of north america? or could it
    be found to belong to Spain.....what about Russian hill in California,
    and Alaska? the Russians could just say the deal was rotten and give
    the US their money back and move in.
    
    Land disputes were always disputed with weapons, now it's done in
    courts (for civilized countries anyway re Irak-Kuwait), and the victor
    was (is) the new "owner".  
    
    Jean
    

    Re.75 
           Excellent point!
    
    ..otherwise the Monguls could claim a large chunk of Asia -
    Mandelas's people could claim the whole of R.S.A and drive
    the anglos, dutch, euro-caucasians..out of Pretoria -
    The Babylonians could re-claim Jerusalem -
    The Alexandrian Greeks could claim Saddam's Iraq (formerly Mesopotamia)-
    The Egyptians could claim Lebanon, Syria, Jordan ...
    The Moors (of Morocco) could re-claim most of Spain and parts of France...
                       [ END-Less...]
    FaZari.

    Adam and Eve could claim the 'ole lot they could!
    
    Give it back to God, it's His anyway.

    re .76
    
>   Mandelas's people could claim the whole of R.S.A and drive
    
    Except that Mandelas' people are mainly Immigrants who moved there
    for the jobs. It would have to be Chief Boutalsi's (sp) people (Zulus)
    claiming the land back.
    
    Wayne.

    Re. 78 by CRATE::ROWELL
    
           -<Slight correction...should be Buthelezi...
    
    BTW: Botha, John Voorster.. will strongly disagree with you.
         As far as they are concerned the land was empty when they
         arrived from Holland, England, Belgium..so that will make
         your slight correction irrelevant. But thanks anyway.
    
    FaZari.

    SETON PORTAGE, B.C.
    
    On Tuesday (Aug. 21st 1990) the RCMP arrested about 40 Indians blocking
    a rail line for defying a court injunction that ordered them to end
    their action.
    
    The Indians, who offered little resistance, had asked Inspector Jack
    Latimer to charge the British Columbia government with theft of their
    land.
    
    They set up the blockade Friday becuase they were unhappy with the
    provincial government's response to their land-claims proposals.
    
    Latimer warned the Indians thru' a bullhorn: "In my opinion you have
    violated an injunction are are committing an offense of Section 127 of
    the Criminal Code of Canada."
    
    The section covers disobeying court orders and lays out possible
    penalties. He then motioned 60 officers to start arresting people 
    blocking the BC Rail Line.
    

This morning AP report on the local paper that Canadian Forces
moved armored cars are in position at the barriers with the
Mohawk Warriors in Oka. Any more developments?

calvin

    Yes,  The Mohawks had been getting supplies by crossing the bridge they
    were blocking and by boat in Dorval, VERY angry people blocked all
    those accesses so now the Mohawks get a taste of their own medicine.
    
    Meanwhile the army moved within a few meters of the barricades in Oka.
    
    Jean
    

			Kennebec Journal / Aug-24-1990


   OKA, Qubec (AP) - Mohawk negotiators suspended talks with the Quebec
   goverment Thursday after armored personnel carriers moved into
   position near a barricade the Mohawks erected six weeks ago in their
   land dispute.
   "It's clear to me this is an intimidation tactic" said Mohawk negotiator
   Joe Deom, surrounded by masked, gun-toing members of the Warriors
   Society milling about the army vehicles "They're making it more and more
   difficult to stay at the table."
   Maj. Richard Larouche, an army spokesman said the soldiers advanced their
   position because armed Warriors were spotted coming in and out of a
   milewide area separating army and Mohawk lines. The army said it would stay
   in the new position, about 35 feet from the baricade. Despite that, native
   spokesmen - not identified - said the Mohawks were ready to return to the
   bargaining table. Larouche said the military closed the gap after sending
   armored personnel carries to accompaty a busload of Mohawk negotiators.
   Tempers in the region, 18 miles west of Montr�al were high.

   Residents were frustrated and furious over commuting hardships and loss of
   business revenue caused by the Mohawk blockade of the Mercier Bridge linking
   several communities on the south side of the St.Lawrence River with Montr�al
   Crowds have tried to stop medical supplies and food from reaching the
   Mohawk community and to keep Indians from leaving.
   The government guarantees access to the reserve while negotiations continue,
   under and agreement reached Aug-12. Federal troops are at Oka in response
   to a request by Quebec Premier Robert Bourassa.

   As local police watched Wednesday, Mohawks and whites brawled after a crowd
   halted three cars with Mohawk passengers at Ste-Catherine. Soldiers 
   intervened and arrested five Indians. About 50 whites carrying crowbars and
   baseball bats patrolled another road from the reserve. Tires were slashed on
   two Mohawk vehicles and a van was overturned before the Indians fled. A
   Montr�al demonstrator said " The police have to let them through with their
   food. We DON'T".
   The dispute arose from Oka's plans to expand a golf course onto land said
   to be ancestral. One officer was killed in a gun battle on July-11 when
   Quebec police tried to remove a Mohawk barrier, blame in the death has not
   been fixed.	
   The Mohawks put some demands in writing for the first time Wednesday. It was
   expected the Mohakw will propose giving native reserves in Ontario and
   Quebec sovereignty over economic development. On Thursday, the Mohawks
   boarded a rented bus bound for negotiations at Oka when they were met by
   armored personnel carries. "The one in front lowered its machine gun at
   the bus and they said they were here to escort us to the talks" said
   Mohawk peter Diome. Diome quoted the soldiers as explaining that death
   threats had been made againts Indian negotiators. But the Mohawks called off
   Thursday's talks, branding the army movement and "act of aggression".

   On Wednesday, angry whites stopped and ambulance from the Kahnawake reserve
   carrying a Mohawk woman who had just given birth. She was being rushed to
   a Montr�al hospital because of birth complications. "Two of the protesters
   insisted on looking into the back of the ambulance to verify there were no
   weapons and it was a real emergency" said Mireille Sigmen, head of
   communications for the ambulance service. She said the service is filing a
   complaint with provincial police.

    Everyone seems to think that the natives are better at handling
    "natural resources" because they have been doing it for eons, this is
    not quite true, they have "evolved" too and they are just as greedy for
    money and power as we all are, sometimes they are right (Oka) and
    sometimes they are wrong (many salmon rivers have been emptied by their
    nets {they have the right to fish like that}).
    
    They did OK when they were fewer people, just as the whites did and
    like the blacks did, the only guilt that anyone can have is to be alive
    in this century and on this overpopulated earth.  It is becoming
    increasingly hard to cope with the population explosion and conflicts
    like this one can only increase in number as the years pass.  Only
    trough understanding can we overcome these problems, this means
    individual rights WILL give way to collective rights.  So a handfull of
    individuals, be they "indians", blacks or whites can not moraly hold
    thousands of citizens hostage for any lenght of time and still get my
    sympathy.
    
    Jean
    

    Oh ya?

    Well, what about the platypus?
    


    	I don't know why I said that, it just seemed like the right thing
    to do......

    ;-)

    In Qu�bec we say "pas assez fou pour mettre le feu, mais pas assez fin
    pour l'�teindre" for people who are whirly twirly artists, or "plus on
    est de fous, plus on rit"
    
    And what about the platybus?????
    
    Jean
    

It's a 'platypus', Jean NOT a 'platybus'.  One is flattened road-kill,
the other is a flattened public transit vehicle.

Your pedantic grammarianness

Patsy

    
    The army have been ordered to remove the roadblocks at the Mercier
    bridge. The Quebec government has asked for the action because the
    Mohawks have not been negotiating in good faith, according to the
    government.
    
    Women and children have been leaving the Kanewake reserve en masse.
    
    The Chief of Defence Staff has stated that he hopes the natives
    do not resist but if his troops are fired upon they will respond.
    Also, all military personnel are 'peace officers' and if there is
    any resistance they will make arrests.
    
    It is expected that they will proceed with their orders today.
    
    Roger

    ... and according to some 2 dozen international observers, it is
    and was the two governments that have been not bargaining in good
    faith, abusing civil and human rights, etc.
    
    Way to go Canada !
    
    Jean, et al: Your wishes are about to come true - them pesky
    Indians are about to be put in their places - maybe six feet under.
    
    Riddle me this : How many dead people will be enough to compensate
    for your "inconvenience" in not using a bridge that has been
    practically unusable for the last few years anyway ? lessee ...
    one little, two little, three little dead indians ? More ?
    A dozen, two ? a few dead Vandoos too ?  Maybe the army should
    replace the smoke cannisters in their 105 mm howitzers with HE and
    just wipe the whole lot of out. THAT'LL teach'em to muck with your
    bridge.
    
    Welcome to Rumania.
    
    The whole lot of you make me sick to my stomach. 
    
    "Native Land Claims" is a misnomer. The Native assertions are for
    things that according to treaties THEY NEVER GAVE UP.
    Treaties are agreements, contracts. You do this and I'll do that.
    
    If you signed an employment agreement with Digital, and they then
    moved you OUT of your home (mortgage paid off), set you up in a
    condo somewhere, would you be upset ? Where in your employment
    agreement do you agree to that ?
    
    Very many Canadians I've spoken with these past days have said,"
    I always thought the Indians got everything they asked for."
    Wrong. For decades the Native Peoples have asked, "respect our
    treaties". The response has been oh, here, take this take that,
    here's money, free schools ? - here have that to.
      
    But never, ever would the Great Canadian Government live up to
    its side of the agreement. The VERY closest they have ever come
    is "oh yeah, we'll let you USE it, exclusively, and in some
    cases we will let you CONTROL it, but no, you can NEVER OWN it
    again." 
    
    Except one thing - nobody ever gave it to the Great Canadian Government.
    They also didn't win it by force of arms - yet.
    That is what the Great Canadian Government is trying to do right
    now, after all these years. Win the land by force of arms.
                                                   
    Get a life of your own, the whole lot of you. Oka will not be the
    end of anything - just the beginning.
    
    Scooter
                     
                                                    
    

    Pardon me .... when did it suddenly become fashionable to allow
    persons (whatever their cause and justness of their cause) to carry
    automatic weapons, disguise themselves so they cannot be recognized,
    build barricades that may be rigged with explosives, and generally
    break every law that WOULD put you and I in a federal prison.
    
    I DO have sympathy for the native cause.  Blockades have been used
    in other situations to draw attention to cause, but not with automatic
    weapons backing up their demands.  So quite frankly, my sympathy
    has been dwindling and yes IT IS TIME to restore law and order.

    I do NOT have sympathy with causes that have to do with the right
    to flout national laws regarding gambling, tobacco importation etc.
    I have to live by these laws, so they should have to as well.  The
    concept of a sovereign nation with a nation is a CROCK unless we
    are willing to carve Canada into a bunch of countries (seems many
    Premiers have the same idea anyway!).
    
    I DO NOT relish the thought of natives or soldiers being killed.
    All this talk about massacres and bloodshed happily overlooks the
    point the Army commanders have made, there will be no shooting unless
    shot at.  If the weapons are laid down, nobody gets killed.  They've
    got public attention, but enough is enough!

    I was disgusted to see the antics of the mob attacking the convoy of
    people leaving the reservation.  And the actions of the police in not
    preventing it and arresting those responsible.
    
    This mob had not been attacked by anyone so it was not self defence, it
    was just revenge, pure and simple, for having been inconvenienced.
    
    When I chose to live in Canada I thought that this was a non-violent
    country.  Seems that I was mistaken.

    Yes it was disgusting ... yet it is easy to look from afar and cast
    our own stones.  Perhaps if your commute to work had been extended
    by 3-4 hours per day for the last month or so, your temper might
    also be frayed.
    
    Your still right though, the police SHOULD have prevented this from
    happening, just as they should have prevented barricades backed
    by armed warriors.

    so what?!?!?

	Its about time someone started standing up to the Canadian/any
	provincial government.

	If more of us in the armchair lobbiest group (I count myself
	in on this) were to get off our fat asses and demonstrate
	against some of the unfair government practices in this
	country and the one South of our border, a hell of a lot more
	might get done and faster.

	Yeah I'm talking about the environment, the poor, taxation
	inequity.....and on and on and on and on....

	Charlie_stoicly_glued_to_his_office_chair

      <<< Note 329.89 by TRCO01::FINNEY "Keep cool, but do not freeze" >>>

>    
>    "Native Land Claims" is a misnomer. The Native assertions are for
>    things that according to treaties THEY NEVER GAVE UP.
>    Treaties are agreements, contracts. You do this and I'll do that.
>

Scooter!  I have been in Canada 27 years, all my school here etc...follow all 
the news, just watched George Erasmus on TV, followed it from the beginning, 
read all about Louis Reil etc etc....and this is NEWS.

If you are right than I am totally on the side of the Indians.  But how come 
this is not public knowledge (not common anyway!)? Did YOU learn this in 
school? Certainly they never taught this to me in Alberta schools!
I would like to hear more about this....not from doubting you Scooter or 
anything like this.  But is this is true than why is this not used to sway 
general public knowledge?

Fred


                                                    
    

    
    Some ray of hope.
    
    The barricades at the Mercier bridge are being dismantled peacefully
    and jointly by Mohawks and the army.
    
    Negotiations are continuing at Oka and hopefully a similar result
    will come of them.
    
    Roger

    
    I sympathize with the Mohawks and many other of our Native People
    who have been mistreated and lied to over the years. We should be
    doing things to make our governments realize that it is time to
    deal fairly with these people and to resolve their legitimate claims.
    
    However, I also believe that the stance taken by the Mohawks at
    Oka of armed disobedience to the law is wrong and must be stopped.
    This is not simply breaking a weapons law, this is insurrection
    and the government is right in using the military to put it down,
    using whatever force is necessary.
    
    Saying that, I also do not believe that the majority of Mohawks
    are in agreement with the Warriors who are manning the barricades.
    If they were given a chance to vote on the proposals made to them,
    I am sure the barricades would be down by now; but that the
    negotiations would be ongoing. They wouldn't be totally resolved.
    
    Perhaps from this will come a better appreciation by the Canadian
    people of the problems between the Natives and the governments with
    which they are dealing. I hope so.
    
    Roger

    Disobediance of the law ? Whose ?
    
    In the U.S. there are laws that don't exist in Canada. Should you,
    as a Canadian be arrest, villified, or have rocks thrown at you
    IN Canada for doing something IN Canada that is not illegal IN Canada
    but is illegal IN the U.S. ??
    
    re: a few back about never hearing about native treaty violations.
    
    Of course its new to you, its a reflection of the huge problem in
    Canada wrt the First Peoples. The media is your only real source
    of info, and unless something dramatic happens, as at Oka, nothing
    was reported.
    
    Scooter

re .97

>>    However, I also believe that the stance taken by the Mohawks at
>>    Oka of armed disobedience to the law is wrong and must be stopped.
>>    This is not simply breaking a weapons law, this is insurrection
>>    and the government is right in using the military to put it down,
>>    using whatever force is necessary.
  
Roger,

The last line is the same that Trudeau used in his famous "Bleeding Hearts"
speech in 1970, when the pressure was enormous during the October crisis.

Too bad he's not been around lately.  Where is the Prime Minister?  Fishing
with Bush.

Great.  French TV showed us those two things one after the other last night.

While I sympathize with the sensitivity of the issue, no one has the right,
as you say, to take the law into their hands like that.

rick ellis

>   Too bad he's not been around lately.  Where is the Prime Minister?  Fishing
>   with Bush.
    
    The report I heard, was that he was Fishing *FOR* Bush, and caught one
    too !  ;-)  ;-)
    
    Wayne
    

    Re -.1
    
    I think it's legal in the US to stuff a president ;-)
    
    Jean
    

    I heard a good quote the other day about the situation - about how it's
    so easy for such a situation to get totally out of hand when there is
    no leadership coming from Ottawa.
    
    ...laura

    Scooter, I for one suffer no inconvenience from either blockage, in
    fact since I live in the city, the more people stuck outside, the
    better it is for me.  But I think that 150,000 people on the south
    shore may indeed suffer from all this, and possibly enough to fray
    their tempers a little.  Also there are thugs in all mobs as seen
    recently in Chateaugay, in Ville la Salle and at a soccer match in
    England (I think it was there).
    
    Latest update:  The army  moved in this morning after some members of
    the Mohawks asked them to, this was sparked by Warriors having beaten
    up (with baseball bats) members of their tribe who had spoken up against 
    them (the warriors) having wrecked and stolen the contens from freinds
    of the Mohawks's homes.
    
    Right now thare are about 20 warriors, a few journalists and some women
    and children (Mohawks) confined to an area 800 by 200 meters in
    Kanesatake.
    
    Jean
    
    Grand Canal (just tought I might slip this in somewhere)
    

    The police were able to intercept some communication between the
    warriors in Oka (Kanesatake) and the long house in Kanawake, what is
    most interesting is that all those communications were in english, now
    if I was a Mohawk I would tend to use my own language to communicate
    with members of my tribe, especially to keep information from my
    ennemies, this is assuming that some of those natives still do speak
    "Mohawk"!
    
    Lose the language, and the culture goes away too.
    
    Jean
    

    That *is* interesting...I noticed it too. You would think that people
    as (apparently) passionately nationalistic as the Warriors would at
    least use their ancestral language.

    .104> "If I was a Mohawk I would tend to use my own language to
           communicate"
    
    Well Jean, That sounds pretty hypocritical coming from a Quebecker.
    
    I guess that the Indians should consider themselves lucky that they 
    were not shot at for speaking English.
    
    Maybe the Indians feel their culture is so strong and diverse that they 
    do not consider it taboo to speak English.
    
    
    					Ralf 
    					(feeling sorry for the Indians)

    Re.106 by KAORSC::R_VIERICH
    
    >> Ralf ( feeling sorry for the Indians)
    
    Are you sure the above statement is not *Condescending ?
    
    There is a difference between being sympathetic and being *Empathetic.
    If you "feel sorry for them" then it appears you are not empathetic so
    that will neutralize your supposed concerns for "the Indians.." 
    
    Re. 104 & 105  Are you two feeling like ganging-up and bashing some
        Mohawks(who happen to be fellow Canadians) this morning ?  
    
    FaZari.

    
    A few notes ago, there was some reference made to the demands of the First
    People being much different than what most people would perceive them
    to be. (That's what I gathered anyway). Could someone maybe calify that
    issue? Also, could someone tell us how those demands could possibly be
    met. (IE - if BC is granted to the First People, where do the people
    from BC go?)
    
    R�al
    

re:      <<< Note 329.107 by BTOVT::BOATENG_K "Ahem,Keine freien proben!" >>>
           -< A taste of "our" own medicine we've been dispensing? >-


	Hey Roget, give us a break. I think we all understood
	what Ralph said, why do you have to cloud the issue.

	Charlie

    The issue is as clear as mumble, muddle, driveling...
    Where have you been ?

    re .107, I am not bashing the indians, they pretend that they are
    different than us AND than the Canadians, as far as I know, the ones
    living in Kanawake are closer to me and you than to their ancestors.
    
    They only seized the opportunity to raise hell when the police attacked
    Mohawks in Oka.  Mohawks in Kanawake make their living running
    businesses and by working for others in the Montr�al area, their
    "reserve" is more a town where all inhabitants have some measure of
    native "blood".  What some of the fighting is all about is that some of
    those businesses border on the illegal side of things, they bought
    cigarettes and alchool in the US, devoid of any taxes, and sell them to
    anyone, again without taxes being collected to any level of
    governement.  They run huge bingo halls (and casinos in St-Regis)
    without respect to Qu�bec's or Canada's laws in the matter.  
    
    If these "businesses" were for the good of the people living in those
    reserves, this "might" make their pligh acceptable, but it seems that
    only a few individuals profit from the gambling and smuggling that is
    going on.
    
    Like I said before, sometimes they are right, and sometimes they are
    wrong.  Did you see what they were doing to the forest they were
    "protecting" from the golf course?
    
    Latest update: Natives in Ontario have claimed responsability for
    knocking down some power lines that crossed their territory.
    
    Jean
    

re:  .111 by Jean

�    re .107, I am not bashing the indians, they pretend that they are
�    different than us AND than the Canadians, ....
    
    Now let's see ...
    
    "...., I am not bashing the Qu�becois, they pretend that they are
    different than us AND than the Canadians, ...."
    
    
    Sorry Jean, just couldn't resist what with the events this year and
    all.
    	8-)
    
    Cheers,
    	Bob

    Different language, different culture!  IF their culture is different
    than yours (not mine) why don't they communicate in their "native" 
    language?  THAT is what I was talking about.  In all this mess, I have
    only seen (heard) a few people make declarations in Mohawk, and these
    were of the older generation.  NONE of the warriors have spoken in a
    language OTHER than english, it is even hard to find Mohawks living in
    Kanawake able to speak french with any fluency.  The spokeperson (Elen
    Gabriel) had a hard time explaining to french TV what was going on and
    also she did not understand all the questions they asked her (sometimes
    they {the journalists} would ask her questions in french and then
    seeing that she did not understand translate the question to english.
    
    I know they are different than ME, but are they that much different
    than YOU?
    
    If you remember the CBC journal during the meech thing, when they had
    people from across Canada in a chalet for a weekend, the only
    am�rindien present admitted that HIS culture was just a souvenir,  he
    may not have spoken for ALL natives, but the recent uprising and
    focussing of the media on the natives have shown that very few of them
    still can communicate in their native tounge(s).
    
    Just to show that we are not an "indian bashing mob", there is a duo of
    Montagnais who have sold over 100,000 copies of an album composed and
    sung only in Montagnais, they had a number of songs extracted from that
    record that made it to the top of the charts (here).
    
    Jean
    

    Jean,
    
    I beg to differ with your statement "different language, different
    culture".  It may be true that people of a different language most
    probably have a different culture, but people with the same language
    may have a different culture. Just look around Canada and you will see
    that there are very many different cultures within groups of people
    speaking the same language. I believe the culture is much more that just
    just the language. The fact that the Mohawks do not speak their native
    language does not by any means imply that they do not have a different
    culture.
    
    R�al
    

    But what pray tell were the origins of those "cultures" you speak of?
    In my travels across Canada I have come across regionalisms, but the
    uniting factor was always the language, this is why you or your peers
    feel "at home" wether you are in Vancouver or St-Johns, Toronto or Los
    Angeles.  You may be a Canadian but you still watch Cheers and Roseanne
    (the ratings are there to prove that) just like the United Staters.
    
    But this getting far from the subject.
    
    Jean
    

    Obviously, you are missing my point ... It may very well be that the
    origin of the language is the same, but in the case of a conquered
    nation, for example, it is quite easy to see that a certain amount of
    the culture will be modified due to the overwelming presence of the
    conqueror, and that in order to communicate with the conqueror, who now
    you have to deal with to get food, loging, work ...., you will have to
    use his language. With time, the original language is lost, replaced by
    the conquerors' one. I believe that even though the language might be
    lost, the culture isn't necessarily. Only a part of it is, since, as I
    implied earlier, language is a part of the culture, it is not the
    culture.
    
    I hope this last comment regarding Cheers and Rosanne wasn't directed
    at me specifically, since you have never met me and you don't know the
    first thing about me. Therefore, it would be quite ridiculous to make
    such an assumption.
    
    R�al

Real, you don't seem to understand, do you? The Indians use that 
culture issue for cash, it's as simple as that. Any excuse is good
enough for them since all they want is the land, so they can turn
around and sell it back to us (just like they're doing w/ booze and
cigs). Sadaem Husseim(sp?) is using the Holy War excuse to get 
what he really wants; oil (ie. cash). I believe that what the 
Mohawks/Warriors did on July11th was an 11th hour decision, a 
desperate decision and it worked, they got the media attention
they rightfully deserved. Problem is, they've went too far and
the ones that are still standing behing the barricades must pay.
The only way out of this for good would be to make the Amerindians
become Canadians so they can stop leaching on the rest of us.
Therefore the Gov't should negociate a deal w/ them to include
them in Canada w/ certain conditions (make them pay taxes, give
them some land and special rights, etc...)
Anyways, it's too bad that they had to do this to wake up our
Gov't. 

A biaised opinion :*)

Andy

    Re. >> The original topic
    
    CKBY (FM 106) Ottawa, reported on the 12.00 (EST) newsbreak that
    there was an altercation between a Canadian Forces soldier and a
    Mohawk Warrior in Oka, this morning.
    During  the altercation the Canadian soldier
    was shoved into barbed wire and was slightly injured. 
    
    A Montreal Gazette article in today's issue said that the Mercier
    Bridge is expected to be opened for normal traffic this morning at
    6.20 am.
    
     
     FaZari.

    re: .117
    
    
    As usual, Andy, you give a very simple minded answer to a very complex
    question. 
    
    'nuff said,
    
    R�al
    

    Grand Canal
    
    
    
    I think you're onto to something here Jean....
    
    ;-)

    Well no wonder they can't speak Mohawk!!!!  the "famous" warrior
    nick-named "lasagna" is in reality Raynaldo Casalpro from the Bronx
    (sp??) in New York, one of the Mohawk woman is from a US university and
    is doing a term paper dealing with indians vs whites in this day and
    age.
    
    Most of the warriors in Oka have been identified and most come from a
    reserve in New York state where they get their "training" (in
    terrorism???)
    
    Jean
    
    PS R�al, les commentaires sur les �missions te t�l�vision n'�taient pas
    dirig�s sp�cifiquement � toi, mais � la majorit� de la population
    Canadienne, car les sondages indiquent la pr�f�rence de la majorit�,
    pas d'une personne en particulier.
    

	Once again, equating language to culture. Titch titch

	Here we go:

	culture area Sociol. A region characterized by similar
		      	cultural patterns amount the groups inhabiting
		      	it.

	culture pattern Social. A complex of culture traits within a
			particular culture.

	culture trait Social. Any socially transmitted element or
			feature within a culture.

	culture n. 	A specific stage or period in the development
		   	of a civilization.

	FUNK & WAGNALLS STANDARD COLLEGE DICTIONARY (its even a Canadian
	edition.)

	Now nowhere in these definitions do I see the word 'language'
	mentioned. Language certainly can be a major contributing factor
	in a culture but certainly not a mandatory one.

	Read the definition of 'culture' carefully. I see two very important
	words mentioned 'stage' and 'period'. Both of these words imply
	a state arrived at through change and a state that is possibly
	transitory, a step to further development of a group of people.

	The Mohawks have a culture. Go and live with them on a reservation
	and you will see that is is drastically different that how any one
	of us lives. So what if they don't speak Mohawk, they don't run
	around in buckskin either but does that make them any less an Indian?


Re: A few back (I think it was Jean)

	Regionalisms, what is that. I think the word you want is culture.

	You mentioned something about 'You and your kind feeling
	comfortable in St. John's or Vancouver'. I hope you are
	not suggesting that Language has anything to do with this.
	I would feel a lot more uncomfortable walking into a
	'red-neck' southern type bar than I would almost any French
	bar in Northern Qu�bec. I was going to say Montr�al but I
	would feel very uncomfortable walking into some east end bars.

	I'm very glad that culture is a lot more than just language.
	If not, Qu�bec would be one large France, but it isn't. It is
	Quebec. And Qu�bec is not a culture either. I love the
	cultures present in Northern Quebec. They are vastly different
	from what I find in Montr�al and Qu�bec City. It it just goes
	to show all the different cultures in the area of land
	bordered by the province called Qu�bec.

	There are also a slew of other cultures present there too.
	English, Indian, West Indian, Chinese, Italian, Jewish.

	The cultures present in both the Qu�bec society and the Indian
	started their mutation right around the time the first French
	explorer set foot on North American soil. Both have evolved
	into hundreds of different cultures (not to mention all the
	others that have been created and are being created by the
	Dutch, the Pakistani, the Germans....the list goes on).

	So I feel comfortable in St. John's or Vancouver or Montr�al
	or Bancroft or Sarnia ;) what's your point? Are you saying that
	you would not? Maybe feeling uncomfortable in different places is
	more of a personal failing and not a cultural one. Perhaps there
	is a psychological term for this...where's FaZari(sp?) when
	you need him/her (sorry I have no idea as to your gender)

	Charlie english_with_a_RC/french_history_living_in_scottish/Protestant
	_ottawavalley_very_comfortably.........


	ps I hate to disapoint you buddy, but I don't watch Roseanne;
	   do you read 'Allo Police'? What the heck, lets generalize, eh!

	   What does a television show has to do with culture I will
	   never know.

    First I like to think that people who work for Digital are not morons
    and as such do NOT watch shows as insipid as Roseanne (now I have
    insulted the Roseanne watchers) I do not read "Allo Police" and I don't
    think you read the national enquirer, but someone must do these things
    otherwise they would not be on the supermarket shelves and the Roseanne
    would not be paid zillions per year to "entertain".
    
    Culture I'll get back to later.
    
    As for "lasagna", his father IS a Mohawk (I don't make these things up,
    I just relay the latest news to you noters) and his mother is of
    Italian descent, thus the nick-name.  His father does live in
    Kanesatake and "lasagna" is a member of a motorcycle gang in Aquasasne
    (sp??? or St-Regis).  He was wanted by the police before this thing
    started.
    
    Jean
    

    Did they do the fire dance or the Nobel dance?
    
    Jean
    

Glenn, Pat I was right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did you see what the pagan tribe is doing in Alberta???

They are digging the Albertan continuation of THE GRAND CANAL.

And we said the grand canal would never flow in Alberta (ref: the GRAND CANAL
note).  All the while we were thinking that the Mohawks were digging trenches
for their own protection, they are digging their part of the grand waterway.
I am sure they are ready with their NPCs (nuclear powered canoes) and they
are going to claim sovereinty over OUR canal.  THIS HAS GOT TO STOP, we
are mad as hell and we are not going to take it anymore (hey this has a nice
ring, maybe they will put it in a movie sometimes).

When a crime is committed, find out who profits from it, said Sherlock Holmes
or was it Columbo or Perry Mason or Ironsides or Raymond Burr or.... 
never mind, someone said that, now I formely accuse the moderator who is 
� (big)MicMac (of his own admission) of masterminding a plot to take over 
the GRAND CANAL.

Now get this "Scooter" (<-- before they rode horses, now it's iron horses??)
grand canal afficionados will not let you or your people take over what is
not rightfully yours, we will trade you a case of fire water (also known as
screech) and some valueless trinkets (it worked for Mahattan) for eternal 
peace and non incursion in the grand canal, especially with NPCs!

Jean

    
    
    Here Here!!!!

>================================================================================
>Note 329.128          WAR, the indians are on the war path!           128 of 128
>POLAR::RICHARDSON "Help save the Nolton Nash Pine!"   3 lines  14-SEP-1990 13:31
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                   -< Well, all I can say to that is...... >-
>    Here Here!!!!

	Where? Where?

Tim :*)

    If you noters out there are not two faced, you must then be in favor of
    kicking out ALL jews out of Israel and giving back the territory to the
    ORIGINAL settlers (the Palestines) or is it the other way around, the
    jews were there before as per the first/last testaments and the arabs
    are the invaders.
    
    Anyway, all in favor of giving southern Ontario to the am�rindiens,
    respond to this note with a YEA!
    
    Jean
    

    Jean,
    
    Isn't the problem that Quebec has the same problem recognizing the
    Iroquois as a separate and distinct society as Canada has recognizing
    Quebec as a separate and distinct society :-) ?
    
    Tony

Touch�

    We have no problem recognizing them as a distinct society BUT if they
    still want to live WITH us, I and Qu�bec's population do expect them to
    obey OUR laws, meaning: NO machine guns, NO drugs, NO tax free sales of
    taxable items.  If on the other hand they want to live by themselves,
    then a border must be put up and it will be respected by both sides.
    
    Jean
    

    When I read this last note, I'm not sure if it is a joke or not.I
    do not see any faces on your not so I'm assuming your serious.


   >> We have no problem recognizing them as a distinct society BUT if they
   >> still want to live WITH us, I and Qu�bec's population do expect them to
     Do you really think they want to live with us? Or should that be
    for us.It seems that we are dictating how they should live.

    Your laws as you call them, should in fact be my laws, but under
    the grace of your self-determination, Quebec(with a couple of
    '''thrown in on that name)have in fact created a laws$specific.
    What is good for the Country is not necessarily good for the
    Quebec nation.
    Your reasoning or methodology is trying to force human nature in
    a direction different than a destined course.Society changes as
    its environment does.With change hopefully comes values which 
    dictate new changes.With laws, these changes are kept measured,
    but changes still do happen.Survival of the fittest comes to mind.
    If it can't take care of itself, then it wasn't meant to be.
   

    Peace and love
    mike

re:   <<< Note 329.133 by MQOFS::DESROSIERS "Lets procrastinate....tomorrow" >>>

>    We have no problem recognizing them as a distinct society BUT if they
>    still want to live WITH us, I and Qu�bec's population do expect them to
>    obey OUR laws, meaning: NO machine guns, NO drugs, NO tax free sales of
>    taxable items.    

	Come now Jean, are not you being a tad bit to pious here?

	Lets take NO machine guns to start with. Are you saying that
	Indians are the only ones in Qu�bec with machine guns? That
	is a load. Between the guns owned by Mafia and gang groups
	you could probably build another bridge between Montr�al
	and the mainland.

	Granted this is still illegal as hell, but at least I only
	see the Indians using the rifles as levers in their fight
	for their rights (whether or not these rights are valid at
	this point I am not arguing either way), and not for gang
	killing as we see in Montr�al every other day.

	Now, how about NO drugs. I am afraid that you may not like
	a lot of your fellow Qu�becers for this restriction. You might
	as well kick half of the population out for this one.

	And the last, NO tax free sales. jealous ;-). Seriously though,
	they (if I remember correctly [I'm sure you will correct me if
	I am wrong :]) contend that since they do not live by our laws
	they do not have to pay sales tax.

	I do not agree with this one either. If they don't want pay
	taxes then they should should form their own government and
	society. This meaning that they would not longer get federal
	assistance. I think that they might start to see the merits
	of a taxation system then.

	
	IMO the points above are not really the issue here. I think
	that the real issue is the less controversial one. There is
	a rebellion by the natives all across Canada. The rebellion
	has nothing to do with the media sensationalized items that
	you have picked on, it has to do with rights. The right
	for the native population of this nation to have land claims
	negotiated within a reasonable amount of time, not 5 to 100
	years! The right for the native population to have a voice
	in the government.

	The Indians are fighting for their way of life the same as
	any Qu�becer. The difference being that Qu�bec has lots
	of high ranking officials in politics and big business, the
	natives do not and therefore are crushed by our power hungry
	society.

	I think I can understand the feeling of helplessness that forced
	many of these people to retaliate in the way that they have.

	Charlie

    Anybody watch the News coming out of Chateauguay/Kanawake last
    night? THESE Indians were acting like SAVAGES, somewhat like
    when the Chateauguay residents threw rocks at Indian driven
    cars a month ago, but this time it was a lot worst. LOT WORST.
    
    Andy 

    And ALL of you condemed the FLQ for doing a lot less than the
    Am�riendiens are doing right NOW.  They have hinted at blowing up power
    lines wherever they crossed the land they claim, they have also
    threatened to do the same to railroads and roads.  Now just wait until
    YOU are either disturbed or out of work because of these "actions" and
    YOU can't provide for yourself or your family, then YOU WILL get your
    own sub-machine gun and restore law and order.
    
    As far as I know anti-tank weapons ARE ILLEGAL, drugs are ILLEGAL, not
    paying taxes is ILLEGAL.  Just try to do that and you will be trown in
    jail, I guess THAT is what they mean by distinct society!
    
    
    Above was part of the story, and the Mohawks doing most of those things
    ARE crooks and also called "warriors".  We can not put all people in
    the same boat, like ALL Am�riendiens are doing illegal things and ALL
    Qu�becois are FLQ terrorists.
    
    F�lix Leclerc wrote in one of his songs "La meilleure fa�on de tuer un
    homme, c'est de le payer � ne rien faire" = the best way to kill
    someone is to pay him for not doing anything.  The Am�riendiens
    troughout Canada have been given this "priviledge" they have the
    highest rate of alcoolism, the lowest number of graduates from ANY
    grade in school, so few university graduates that it is shamefull, and
    ALL levels of schooling is FREE for them, they even get their lodging
    paid for if they go to another town/province!  Now you tell me what
    would you do in their place, work like a dog to go to university for
    the priviledge of working the rest of your life or drink beer and hunt
    (where it is possible to do so)?
    
    ALL governements have tried the same way to get rid of them, I guess
    the only amazing thing is that they are still there, just like us
    (Qu�becois) and THAT may make their society distinct, just like mine!
    
    Jean
    

	re .137

>    ALL governements have tried the same way to get rid of them, I guess

	I hadn't realized that. I thought it was only the U.S. who had
	addressed the problem of indigenous populations by selling them
	smallpox-infected blankets.

	Tony

	Jean,

	Why bring the FLQ into this? I think that is a dirty memory
	that most people would rather forget. I hope the Indians
	never stoop to the level of kidnapping and murder to make
	a point.


	Please re-read my previous reply. I do agree that drugs,
	guns and tax avoidance are illegal. I just do not agree
	that they are an issue. Except for the Montreal Indian
	situation, most of protest across the country is done
	without violence and guns. As for taxes and drugs, well
	I think that is one group of Indians and as you said
	yourself, one cannot judge a people on the actions of
	one of its groups.


	You seem to take offense at my use of Quebec as an example.
	I have not meant what I say as derogatory. If I were to
	remove Quebec from the discussion the answer would be the
	same; its the Natives against the big_business/politicians
	regardless of language or culture or what ever other diversity
	you want to throw at the this issue.

	How would you like it if your goverment (municiple, provincial,
	federal, state whatever, who cares) told you that you would have
	wait for anywhere from 5 to one hundred years to know whether
	you own your business or not, AND during that time (since it
	may not be yours) the government will keep all your profits.

	Granted the above statement does not hold quite the same as the
	Indian issue but I think you get my meaning.


	Just tell me. Do you agree with anything the Indians are fighting
	for? Or have you decided that they are all a bunch of no good,
	rifle-toting, beer-guzzling uneducated bums. (a philosophy that
	I do NOT prescribe to myself.)

	Charlie

	ps  I guess that you would not have hired the Native American
	    architect that recently was paid a substantial amount of
	    money to design the Museum of Civilization � Hull in order
	    that he contribute his heritage to the building.

    I do agree that wrongdoings were done BUT violence is not the way to
    right the wrongs.  The parallel to the FLQ was to condemn violence, I
    did not bring it up to glamorize what they did.  We (Qu�becois) have
    come a long way in the past few decades and most of the progress was
    done with education and taking care of our own business, not with
    weapons or by circumventing the Canadian or Qu�bec's tax systems.
    
    If the Am�riendiens want to survive as a society, they will have to
    educate themselves.  They will have to take care of their OWN
    businesses and if those businesses are in Canada, they will have to act
    like Canadians.
    
    Jean
    

    Wow ! The hypocrisy and hysteria is hitting even this notes file !
    
    Lessee - The Canadian ARMY, armed with M-16 assault rifles and M-60
    Machine Guns enters Mohawk territory, puts up _razor_ wire, and
    the Mohawks fight back with fists and stones. The ARMY fires several
    _dozen_ rounds into the air (anyone ever wonder where those rounds
    came down ? In a school yard in Lasalle ? The side of a hospital on
    Montreal Island ?) ...
    
    ... and lo and behold, its the Mohawks that you accuse of being
    _savages_ !
    
    ... and equating unarmed Mohawk men and women of all ages 
    confronting the armed soldiers with the healthy and strong men who 
    stoned the women, children and old people on the Mercier bridge - 
    well, this is rather revealing, isn't it ? 
    
    
    wrt government assitance. That is a rather subtle distortion. You see,
    part of the Native's beef with the Cdn gov't is this business of Yearly
    Allotments. When a treaty deal _is_ worked out, the Cdn gov't agrees
    to recognize that certain lands are the territory of one Native Nation
    or the other, and recognizes that other territory, already settled and
    "developed" (ie. irreversibly mutilated by buildings and roads) and so
    will be compensated for by money, they deem that the money will be paid
    through yearly budget allotments the the Dept. of Indian Affairs. Well,
    the white bureaucrats of DIA "know" that Natives can't handle money,
    so they allocate it in programs - so much for schools, so much for
    hospitals, assistance etc.
    
    And at the end of this process, uninformed whites (most of whom don't
    want to be informed ) see this as social assistance or welfare money.
    It isn't. It is the government's way of 'controlling' the Natives
    even during those rare moments when they concede that the Natives
    have been screwed by the white man. 
    
    For those that are still having a hard time understanding this -
    
    lets say you get hit by a drunke driver and crippled - you sue and the
    other guy offers to settle out of court - a large settlement. The lawyers 
    of the driver then tell you, "we will only pay you by paying for actual
    needs the rest of your life. Once a year you present us with a
    projection of your needs for the next year - how much for food, how
    much for rent, how much for tuition for you children, etc."
    
    You, not having  enough money  to sue again,and having spent years in court 
    already, agree. 
    
    This is a classic gov't tactic because it does two important things -
    it creates a dependency on the gov't for income ( pulling the natives
    into the white man's econmic structure ) and secondly, allowing the
     gov't to control the natives by forcing them to give up administration
    of their own lives to the gov't - in a rather subtle way.
    
    Scooter 
    
    

    >>  If you noters out there are not two faced, you must then be in favorof
    >>    kicking out ALL jews out of Israel and giving back the territory tothe
    >>    ORIGINAL settlers (the Palestines) or is it the other way around, the
    >>    jews were there before as per the first/last testaments and the
    >> arabs  are the invaders.
        
    >> Anyway, all in favor of giving southern Ontario to the am�rindiens,
    >>  respond to this note with a YEA!
    
    This seems to imply that the author thinks that the Natives want to
    kick the non-Natives out of Canada, or more specifically, at least
    Ontario. This reveals a huge part of the problem. 
    
    Communication. You people, like the Canadian gov't, aren't listening
    to what the First Nations are actually saying. You are reacting,
    out of some deeply-harboured guilt, in a kneejerk fashion. Upon
    hearing that there is a dispute, you seem to assume that the desire is
    to kick everybody out. Why is that ? I can only assume it is because
    you feel that you really have no right be there in the first instance.
    
    Well in a sense, that may be true, but only in a minor way. You see,
    I can't think of an Indian Nation that believes  that the
    Non-Natives don't have a right to be here, live, and develop.
    
    Surprised ? Well don;t take my word for it - LISTEN. Pay attention
    when you hear people like George Erasmus, or Bob Wilson or Phil
    Fontaine speak. Their ancestors AGREED to share the land with the
    Europeans when they arrived. The original treaties _guaranteed_ that
    the First Nations would live side-by-side with the white man.
    
    The Indians lived up to their commitments in the treaties - they
    want the Canadian Gov't to, for once in it's pitiful history, to live
    up to _it's_ side of the bargain.
    
    When the Canadian Gov't stops speaking with forked tongue, maybe the
    hysteria in certain sectors of the canadian public will give way to
    some true understanding and peaceful coexistance.
    
    Arabs and Jews have their own problems. They sure aren't even
    close to the ones we have in Canada.
    
    Scooter

    >>>I do not agree with this one either. If they don't want pay
            taxes then they should should form their own government and
            society. This meaning that they would not longer get federal
            assistance. I think that they might start to see the merits
            of a taxation system then.
    <<<
    
    Well, that's a start. Now, go out, call your MPP, MLA or whatever
    provincial rep you have, call your MP, or write letter, write or call
    the PMO and DIA, and pressure them to do just that.
    
    The bit about the assistance, I've explained earlier. If you don't
    want to compensate the Natives for their land, give it back. If it is
    too difficult ot painful (ie. on those that live there ) to give back
    the land, pay for it. We are Not talking about ALL of the land, just
    the land which, by treaty, the Canadian gov't has itself recognised as
    being Native Territory, but went ahead and used and developed anyway,
    simply because the Natives had no way of stopping them.
    
    But rid yourself of this rascist and patronizing notion that only
    Canada knows how to "look after" the Native Nations.
    
    Scooter
    

    What's wrong with trading all the lands owned by the natives with
    southern Ontario, it's got nice houses, big buildings all kinds of cars
    and lots of people who will become their slaves and don't forget, the
    GRAND CANAL runs right by too.
    
    Jean
    

    Oui Oui!! Le Canal Grand!

    Let the Grand Canal bring this bitter dispute to an end!

    We'll get all of the Southern Ontario slaves to work all the locks!
    They'll do it in several combinations! It will unify this country and
    hopefully restore the 'title' to this great conference!
    
    Glenn

    	This is the 146th reply to this note.
    
    
    
    	LOOK OUT SARNIA!!

    Does a reply having the word "Sarnia" count towards the total of
    replies for the Sarnia note?
    
    Jean
    

    If I were the Sarnia topic, I'd be nervous!

    

    	.148

    Oh yeah?!?!?!
    
    Well..
    
    
    
    1001101101100110101010101010101011010100011101011010101 !!!!!!!
    
    
    Glenn

Did any of you see Jesse Jackson make an ass of himself at Oka 
yesterday? Jesse is now a 'reporter' w/ his own show and came
to Mtl to do a spoof on the Oka War. The Army and/or SQ wouldn't
let him in thru the barricades. Imagine Jesse's face when they wouldn't
let him to talk AmerIndians but just last week he got to talk to
Husseim. Anyways, things went from bad to worst when he decided to
have a 'press conference' in front of the barricades, Jesse mentionned
that 2 people got killed at Oka. A reporter quickly asked who were
the 2 (there was only 1). Jesse couldn't answer and just kept 
rambling....

Andy

    If it's bloodshed that he came to stop, then why doesn't he go back to
    Washington D.C. where the murder rate is eclipsing that of Detroit?

    Jesse Jackson in an opportunist extraordinaire!

    If you can hear me Jesse...
    


    1010101000101010101010101010101010101000010110101001 !!!!!!
    
    	

    re .151
    
    Andy,
    
    I think that Jesse reffered an old mohawk (over 100 years old) who
    supposidely died as a result stress due to all the events that happened.
    
    M.

    The ordeal in Oka is all over, the assholes came out like a bunch
    of SAVAGES and the Mohawks in Kanawake did the same later on.
    Lock 'em up and THIS TIME let's hope the Gov't learned a lesson.
    
    Andy

    <<The ordeal in Oka is all over, the assholes came out like a bunch
    <<of SAVAGES and the Mohawks in Kanawake did the same later on.
    <<Lock 'em up and THIS TIME let's hope the Gov't learned a lesson.
    
Suffering from malignant stupidity are you??

    Hey bud,
    	This has nothing to do w/ them being indians. The way they
    acted sometimes during this whole ordeal was unbelievable. It 
    reminded us of the Chateauguay residents throwing rocks at 
    Mohawk cars last month (they too were SAVAGES). 
    
    Happy Duke?
    
    Andy

    Hey maybe Jesse's presence WAS good after all!
    
    I admire the Mohawks, we only managed to draw the october crisis (1970)
    for 59 days, they on the other hand made it to 77 days, WOW like awsome
    man.
    
    But seriously, we should invite the reverend Jesse Jackson (any
    relation to Michael??) to fathom the depths of the GRAND CANAL after
    doing a few wirly twirlies on the banks.
    
    Jean
    

    100011010010101001010100101010010100011101010 !!!!!

	>><<The ordeal in Oka is all over, the assholes came out like a bunch
	>><<of SAVAGES and the Mohawks in Kanawake did the same later on.
	>><<Lock 'em up and THIS TIME let's hope the Gov't learned a lesson.
    
	>Suffering from malignant stupidity are you??
    
    He does, I sit next to him, and let me tell you ........
    
    
    Real

    100101010101001 !!!
    
    In other bits,
    
    
    
    reply .160!

	What does this one say -   

01000110 00100110 01100011 01101011 00100000 01000000 01100110 01100110


	;-)

	Btw  set your brain to 8s.

    I can't think in octal....
    
    so I think I'll place a HEX on you!!!
    
    
    0123456789ABCDE
    

    re .162
    Don't you mean:
    0000 0001 0010 0011 0100 0101 0110 0111 1000 1001 1010 1011 1100 1101
    1110

01000110 00100110 01100011 01101011 00100000 01000000 01100110 01100110


	Actually Glenn, that was binary (8s meaning eight bit space)
	but since like it in the hex, I'll translate;

	46 26 63 6B 20 40 66 66


	:-)

	BTW have a nice weekend all, the colors should be nice
	    (on the trees that is). Of course the coat eh will
	    not care, that stuff and digital is for wimps..:-P

    .165!

    re: .162
    
    >>>I can't think in octal....
    
    >>>so I think I'll place a HEX on you!!!
    
    
    >>>0123456789ABCDE
    
    
    Glenn where's the F, you?  Did you forget it, like you forgot
    the difference between octal and binary?
    
    dog
                             

    I'm sorry, I forgot, and I do feel a BIT silly.
    
    F
    
    

    With the last reply, and the inclusion of the missing F, I can see that
    you are NIBBLEing away at the answer.
    
    dog

    YOU GUYS ARE JUST ADDING NOTES TO CATCH UP TO SARNIA.
    

re:       <<< Note 329.171 by POLAR::BAYNE "relax folks, enjoy the show" >>>
                                -< Yes we are >-

    

    What a ridiculous accusation!

    .173

	There you go again Mike, on or off should be in the
	digital discussion.

	Ya ken dres'm'up but ya kent take em out

    This is getting a BIT out of hand!!!

    See I knew what you where up to.
    

    Thanks for the help!
    
    
    
    	.178

How do you recognise a baby warrior in a nursery?

He wears his diaper on his face.

Jean

P.S. I have a few more but they only make sense in French.

		save your jokes, stupid as they are.

	Jean,

	Geez, from reading your anti-french rebukes in this conference
	I wouldn't have pegged you as a bigot...

	Charlie

    Now, now, let's not do whirly-twirlies over this..
    
    I don't do whirly-twirlies when someone makes fun of me, I just tell
    them:
    
    	"You'll have to come out of your house one day!"
    
    
      !!!!!
       o o
        ^
        o
    

	I can appreciate a certain amount jibbing amongst the
	members of a conference. However IMO there was no call
	for that joke. Derogatory jokes belong in a jokes conference
	not here.

	And since I am still entitled to my own opinion....

	Charlie

	ps I don't think that Jean would have appreciated a French
	   joke in one of the language debate notes.	

    I have been treated to ALL kinds of jokes BECAUSE I am french and some
    of them are quite funny.  My feeling is that if you are not worth a
    joke, you are not worth much, and if every person who ever made fun of
    another one was labeled a bigot, we would all be united by that fact
    alone!
    
    This was told to me in St Johns (Newfoundland):
    
    A pakistani (sp??) took his neighbor to court because one day he was
    cleaning an area carpet by beating it as it was draped over his clothes
    line, his neighbor said "what's wrong buddy, won't it fly?"
    In court his defense was that he would be constantly suing just about
    every one for making newfie jokes.
    Case dismissed the judge said.
    
    Jean
    

    There is also a BIG difference between situation jokes (the warriors
    wearing masks) and biggoted jokes that hint at a whole population being
    dolts, dirty or having some outstanding physical attributes.  I didn't
    think the joke I made was at all derogatory and the others I have heard
    are not either, but they twist indian words so they make sense in
    french.  Ex: How do you say condom in Mohawk? OKA (au cas)  this is NOT
    making fun of the am�riendiens at all.
    
    Jean
    

	...save it for the HUMOR notesfile.

	Charlie

      re:.185
      >>>I didn't think the joke I made was at all derogatory
    
    From your viewpoint perhaps it was not derogatory, however I would like
    to know what a Mohawk Indian would have to say about the joke.
    
    shawn

    NOW CAN WE GET BACK TO SOMETHING RELEAVNT IN LIFE?
    
    CAN ANYBODY TELL ME WHO SCORED FOR LES HABITANTS AGAINST THE SABRES
    LAST NIGHT?
    
    MERCI BIEN,
    
    TED.

	GEE TED I DON'T KNOW. AND I ALSO DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT
	HAS TO DO WITH THIS NOTE OR...

	Why you feel inclined to type in capital letters.


	Charlie

     The reason why Ted is shouting is that he's typing all the way from
    Dublin!

    What's the Indian word for cane?
    
    Kanawake (Canne-a-walker).  It's french but it's still a good one.
    
    As for the ones that feel these jokes are deragatory, get a life.
    (...and you know who you are)
    
    Andy

    As far as I'm concerned, it's water under the bridge.........

	Well Jean, I realize that we tend to be opponents most of
	the time in this conference, but I feel truly sorry for
	you now.

	Andy Watters has taken your side.... 

	Charlie

    re -.1
    	Typical response. This must be the time when you take 
    a note and make it totally off-topic. You've done it so many
    times.... :*)
    
    Andy_who_was_just_fed_up

    Andy, were you fed up with the situation or with you ex-buddy?
    
    I'm glad to let you join in with me, comme je l'ai deja dit, plus on
    est de fous, plus on rit.
    
    Jean
    

    RE -.1
    	     BOTH.
    
    Andy

    
    Wow ! Andy joins Jean ... I wonder who is going to be the brain in that
    dynamic duo???
    
    :-{)
    
    R�al
    

    
    
    I think you're talking failover at best.....:-)
    
    Mike C�t�

    
    .199
    

    This one is just to mark this important milestone of the 200th reply to
    this note, granted they were not all relevant, especially the one
    dealing with binary and octal (courtesy of Mr Charlebois et Mr C�t�),
    but then again not all replies in the Sarnia note are either.
    
    Jean
    

    Sorry to have to correct you ... again ... but I had nothing to do what
    so ever with the binary/octal/hexadecimal string of notes. Lets stick
    to the facts shall we.
    
    RC

Mr Charlebois, sorry to bring this up but when the 'binary/octal/hex'
string of notes came about you were running and screaming to whomever
would listen that you'd tried in vain to make sense out of these
strings. In your last note you say "let's stick to the facts", then
what is note .197? I call it stirring shit, hence I understand that
you are from AmerIndian decent which is still no excuse in my book
but in others is allowed. Your narrow-mindedness... 'me d�passe'.
It seems that you and Mr. Cot� are on the same wavelength on this
whole issue; this must be quite a 'wavelength', even scary if one
bothers to think about it... :*)

Andy

	Well, we've done it! Take a look Glen, the divine moment
	has been attained. Check out definition 1.


	Whirly-Twirly (wur.lie' - ta.wur.lie') n. 1. Ambiguous, chaotic,
	and viscious circle.  2. Sometimes used in reference to statements
	made by the great statesman Korf [Korph] Barbunk. 3. A spicy
	sausage originated from the Carp of Ontario region of Canada.
	4. Almost anything else that comes to mind or not to mind.
	Abbr. WT., wt.  [<Dial. supurl. eh <Stark raving lunacy]

	Removed with permission from the Boluvian Abridged Dictionary
	and cookbook.

	Charlie

    Re .202
    
    Andy, Andy, Andy, slap yourself, you just might come out of it. Once
    again you are falling off the deep end. I realize an attack on your
    cerebral capacity is hard to take, but lets not kid ourselves. :-{)
    
    Lets talk facts -
    
    >Dear Chief Woodchuck
    
    I may be of Amerindian decent, but I was never a chief.
    
    >when the 'binary/octal/hex' string of notes came about you were running
    >and screaming to whomever would listen that you'd tried in vain to make
    >sense out of these strings. 
    
    First, anyone who knows me will know that, being the calm level headed
    person that I am, I never run and scream.
    
    Second, "to whomever would listen" ... hog wash, I only mentionned it
    to you, wondering what it was all about, only to find out it was
    another one of Mike Cote's demented idea of a joke. :-{)
    
    >In your last note you say "let's stick to the facts", then
    >what is note .197? I call it stirring shit, 
    
    You are right, for a change,  .197 was just that, stirring shit. But it
    has nothing to do with not sticking to the facts. You might want to get
    someone, preferably with a mind, to explain to you what sticking to the
    facts means.
    
    >hence I understand that you are from AmerIndian decent which is still
    >no excuse in my book but in others is allowed.
    
    Blah, blah, blah ... did this make sense to anyone? Shure didn't make
    sense to me. Possibly a feeble attempt at being 'dr�le'.
    
    >Your narrow-mindedness... 'me d�passe'.
    
    I have re-read .108,.114,.116,.119,.159,.197, and .201 and I fail to
    see where you detect narrow-mindedness in there. As far as something
    'qui te d�passe' I am not overly surprised.
    
    >It seems that you and Mr. Cot� are on the same wavelength on this
    >whole issue; this must be quite a 'wavelength', even scary if one
    >bothers to think about it... :*)

    Well, don't bother too much, Mike and I are hardly ever on the same
    wavelength. I'm not even sure that Mike is on a wavelenght anyone could
    ever be on. If the FACT that Mike and I both poked a little fun at you
    and Jean puts us on the same wavelength, I will admit, that perhaps for
    a fraction of a cycle, we may have achieved resonance.
    
    
    :-{) :-{) :-{) :-{) :-{) :-{) :-{) :-{) :-{) :-{) :-{) :-{) :-{) :-{) :-{) 
    
    R�al
    

    Latest update:
    
    R�al has just made a barricade outside his cubicle, blocking all access
    to his desk, he is wearing a funny hat, sunglasses and a kimwipe in
    front of his mouth.  He is treatening all passers by with a weapon made
    from a ruler and elastic bands (illegal in KAO)!
    
    A suivre!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    Jean reporting from afar