Conference kaosws::canada

I'm pragmatic enough to believe that Qu�bec can, and will, make it in
a more 'separate' condition than it finds itself now.  I know that if
I were a Qu�becois, separation would be the ONLY option - but, then,
I believe in a united Ireland as well.

If the rest of Canada cannot see the way to establish a new relationship
with Qu�bec (not that Qu�bec should even care what the rest of Canada
thinks), then Canada will only be a bystander to the chrysalis of a new
state.  Canada should view this as an opportunity to form a new partner-
ship, and not remain mired in 19th century relationships.

Qu�bec is at the cutting edge of change, and Canada has an excellent
chance of snatching complacency from the jaws of opportunity but it
could do better, if...

Pat

    re .1
    
    >if the rest of Canada cannot establish a new relationship with
     Quebec
     
    
    What would you like the rest of Canada to do? 
    9 provinces and 2 territories should work to establish a new
    relationship with 1 province who spits on National pride every chance
    it gets??
    
    >not that Quebec should even care what the rest of Canada does
    
    What about the UNvocal folks who live in Quebec? What about the
    veterans who fought for freedom under the (then) Canadian flag?
    What about the French who LIKE being Canadian?
    What about the English who pay provincial taxes and live by French
    Quebecs rules? 
    
    Maybe there are more people who care what the rest of Canada does than
    you think.
    
    
    What is Quebec?
    
    Embarrassing mostly. 
    Home always.
    But I am Canadian first. 
    
    What is Quebec?
    
    One province out of 10. 
    
    -c-
                            

It seems unusual to think that one province out of 10 could not work together
with the rest of them.

Down here we have 50 states from tiny Delaware and Rhode Island all the way
up to Alaska. With the exception of the Civil War over slavery and other issues
back in the 1800's, all the states have worked together because they had
a national pride.  The US has alot of regional and ethnic divisions that 
have their own agendas, but they usually try to work within the system.

The language issue sounds pretty bogus.  It sounds like some people in Quebec
are afraid of growing.  A society has to change to adapt to the times.  Forcing
people to do something for ethnic reasons is wrong, no matter who does it.  To
mandate French-only is to make non-French people second-class citizens.  Some
of the people here have claimed that the Anglo's have done it to the French for
decades.  I personally have never seen it while I was living in Canada and I
used to live about five blocks from Le Colisee.  I want to know from our French
noters:  If the Anglo's really repressed the French people back then, is it 
right that the French do it to everyone else now?  Is deliberate discrimination
justified under any terms??  

At the same time, should the other provinces do the same to Quebec?  I really
don't know how the other provinces treat my place of birth, but I do know that
Canada is a two-language country.  Each culture has its pluses and minuses.
Repressing either is an injustice.  I am proud to have been born in Quebec,
but I am a Canadian at heart: one country, many peoples.

B.

Ms B Wong,

Perhaps if you had participated in some of the other notes, you
response might be crediable.

Calvin

    RE: .-1
    
    That's a MR....
    
    Ms. Pitt had already conveyed the same thoughts that I did; I already
    told her that.  Why clutter up the notesfile with the same comments
    if there's nothing new to be said?
    
    Ben

    Cal, 
    I think that everyone's opinion is valuable, no matter what side of the
    fence you happen to sit on, no matter how many times you decide to
    participate in Notes.
    This is an emptional issue that alot of people feel is not worth
    getting a headache over. 
    
    
    I want to address something that you said in (I think) .7 that I didn't
    really fully understand. 
    It is true that the Chinese were the source of great prejudice in early
    Canada. We cannot deny that. 
    My ancestors came over from Scotland and Ireland and they too had to
    overcome oppression.
    The point here is two-fold. 
    Seems that it is a characteristic of mankind to have to feel that they
    are better than someone. 
    It's not difficult to see. If you put three children in a room, one
    of the three will be ostricized for one reason or another....he is
    the shortest, the ugliest, the only boy, the only XXXrace child, etc.
    Adults are the same, only their reactions are on a larger scale.
    The KKK is just a group of adults playing out ALOT of peoples
    prejudices. (Obviously I am totally against the KKK so don't get caught
    up in that one). 
    
    None of this excuses and oppression suffered by any group of people at
    any time in history. 
    
    The whole point of this is, if we spend all of our time trying to 'pay
    back' past wrongs, we will NEVER 'get on with it'.  Lets start NOW. 
    I will treat YOU like an equal. You will treat ME like an equal. 
    
    At the risk of getting long winded (sorry...I tend to do that when I
    get on a subject that IS so important to me). 
    
    Assuming that the French speaking Canadians decide to seperate and 
    become their own country. 
    How long will it take before they start seeing the samy problems on a
    smaller scale? Who will be oppresses THIS time? 
    It will have to be a minority. Have to be someone who is most 'unlike'
    most everyone else. Have to be someone convenient who probably won't
    fight back for awhile. 
    This is not a stab a French Speaking Canadians. 
    
    Look around you. Do you think that separating will create a small
    Utopia where everyone will love everyone? WHere there will be no
    oppression or prejudice or jealousy between the haves and the have
    nots? Do you think that your life will be better than it is now?
    If so, I'd like to understand what you see for a seperate Quebec.
    Will you give the English speaking Quebeckers a "speak French or
    leave" ultimatum? How do you think THEY will react to the OPPRESSION
    that has already begun? 
    Again, I'm not trying to heat up feelings. I really want to understand.
    
    cathy

    re my last (.8)
    
    when I said >the Chinese were the source of great prejudice< I was
    obviously temporarily out of my mind. The Chinese were NOT the source.
    They were the TARGETS...
    
    sorry if this caused any of you folks out there to leave your seats
    yelling all sorts of profanities!!!!!
    (But I bet it livened up your replies....!!!!)
    
    :-)cathy

    one more thing....
    
    
    re .6
    
    Cal,
    I'd like to understand the HORRORS of which you speak in your reply.
    Are you saying now that the French Speaking Canadians not only were
    not treated as equals, but had to endure some sort of HORRORS as well?
    
    Not being treated as a equal is a BITXX, but I wouldn't classify it as
    a HORROR. Now what the JEWS endured at the hands of NAZI Germany was
    a HORROR.
    
    Please elaborate on this point, or let me know if I totally missed the
    boat....
    
    cathy

Cathy

The horrors were unstructured terrorism against a minority group
who were "guest" Chinese labourers to work on the railways. Nazi
horrors were committed as a structured treatment of a minority
group.

As Ben pointed out, this is becoming a rat-hole. Please send me
mail. I am at CXN, just north of Chapel Hills Mall in the
Springs.

cal hoe

    Ok, you;re right . Sorry for the rathole. 
    I misunderstood you to say that the horrors were perptrated against
    French Speaking Canadians. 
    My mistake. That is what I was questioning. 
    
    No more rathole. 
    
    Thanks for the reply. 
    
    This IS a very interesting topic. I am sure there are ALOT of Quebec
    natives out there, both French and English speaking, who have their
    own ideas/feelings on WHAT IS QUEBEC.
    This is an education for me.
    As I said in previous notes, I left Quebec after graduating from high
    school to go and spend 5 years in Newfoundland in the CAF. 
    I try to keep up on the politics through my folks. I AM very 
    interested in the perspective of those who live/lived there.
    
    Maybe is more people could discuss the problems in this type of
    forum, we could figure out just WHAT EXACTLY the REAL problem is. 
    
    thanks
    
    cathy

    
    
    so ANYWAYS.....................
    
    
    
                                WHAT IS QUEBEC?
    
    
 
    
    :-)

    
    meanwhile:
    
    One thing that Quebec has always SEEMED to be to me is a very
    progressive province. 
    The show that was put on for EXPO '67 was impressive to say the least.
    The Metro is something that CANADA can be proud of. 
    When someone finds out I'm from Montreal, ususally the first thing they
    tell me (after they ask if I'm French!!) is that they love the Metro;
    that it is SO clean compared to the subways in the States.
    They also say how much they loved Old Montreal, and how clean the city
    is, how lively it always seems to be.
    
    I know that these are little things, "BUILT" things, but they show the
    pride that the people who live there have in their cities.
    
    cathy  

    Quebec is a place where there is old and the new.  Both can live in
    harmony and they complement each other. 
    
    There is the great park along the St. Lawrence; just as nice as it was
    when I lived there.  There is the Chateau Frontenack (sp?) at the end
    of the park and Old Quebec.
    
    There are all the newer places and buildings all over the province, 
    such as the massive HydroQuebec project.  I was surprised to the
    new Coliseum in Quebec City (though it's been around for a while).
    
    The nice things don't change, but the city (and the province) don't let
    that stop them from looking at the future.
    
    Hey, Cathy, were you at EXPO '67?  I remember sitting in a car for
    hours to get there from Quebec City...
    
    B.
    
    

    Expos '67 was one of the neatest fairs I've ever been to. 
    I remember the little pass booklets you got to take around and get
    stamped at all the 'countries'. And La Ronde. The line for the Gyrotron
    was longer than any line I've ever stood in. 
    
    I also remember the first year at Jarry Park. The bleacher crowds were
    the best. I think I lived there the first few summers. 
    I remember them always saying on the radio that Jarry Park had a
    personality unlike any other parks in the league. I think it had alot
    to do with the fact that the park was so small that it was almost
    ALWAYS full and that we just always had a great time. 
    
    I remember Hockey Night in Canada every Saturday Night and Wednesday
    Night. 
    I remember being on a field trip with my class during the last game of
    the FIRST Canada Russia hockey series. We all stood around the school
    bus listening to the game. WHen Paul Henderson scored the winning goal
    assisted by Pete M, you could feel the pride OOZING out of everyone.
    
    I agree with the previous note. Quebec is a place where the old meets
    the new better than it does in most cities. The old Catholic churches,
    the old schools. Mount Royal.
    Quebec is Unique in its culture. But I think what is unique is the
    combination French/English that Quebec has become. It is neither all
    one nor all the other. But it is in both together that Quebec is so
    special. 
    
    cathy 

    I remember...
    
    ...skating in the yard at the back of my elementary school with my 
    sisters.
    
    ...all the snow...and the humongous snowthrowers...the wall of snow
    down the middle of the street because they couldn't haul it all away...
    and the 30-40 foot high snow piles along the highways...:-)
    
    ...AND Le Carnaval!

    yeah yeah...Bonne Homme Carnival. I never made it to Quebec city to see
    it in person....but I do remember watching that big goofy looking guy
    on TV with my brothers every year...was great....
    
    cathy
    
    (I sure am homesick.....)

Qu�bec is that part of Canada where there are enough French speaking people
that they have been able to legislate that their language be the primary
language.

/john

    
    Finally here's some rain for the St. Jean Baptiste day parade ?