Conference kaosws::canada

    Truth all of it.  Quebec is playing with fire.
    JP

    Another reason why the U.S. would not want to absorb Canada
    is that they would find the Canadian sense of humour dangerously
    subversive.
    
    Tony

Back in the late 60's, early 70's, when the separtists were
starting to be heard, the national Security Council for the then
President Nixon, developed a paper that said that if Canada is to
be separated, the only province that would benefit them would be
British Columbia.

cal

    Why B.C.??  Forest products?  Deep water port?  Agriculture?
    Seems weird...you would think if BC had something that valuable
    (like more valuable than Ontario), they would be doing more to
    exploit Washington state and Oregon...

    They *do* exploit Washington and Oregon - this is painfully obvious
    when you fly over the clear cuts.
    
    As for B.C., they are particularly interested in our water and lumber.
    
    ...laura

Laura,

They also like our natural beauty, fishing industry, and like you
said, water. California is hungry for water and will get it any
way it can.

cal

    I think B.C. makes sense because it separates the lower 48 from Alaska.
    With B.C. as a State, it would be easier to build more pipelines and
    increase energy development.

    Glenn

    Glenn,
    Does this have anything remotely to do with whirly-twirlies?  If
    not, why are you mentioning it.
    
    JP

Shush, Jim!  Glenn's sitting on his washing machine agitator and turned
the dial to...EMULSIFY?!

Pat

    From the Montreal Office Gazette:
    
    I agree, we are the Bangladesh of Canada, if we were to separate, we
    would instantly die of hunger, thirst....we have no industry to speak
    of, most of the population is on welfare and any institution that has
    any standing is state owned.  One would be foolish to live here and
    even worse to MOVE here.  Just keep away from here and you will live a
    LOT better.
    
    
    Jean (try to get straight FACTS before making up your mind)
    

     Jean you forgot to mention that we didn't want to be part of the
    second world war and the first for that matter, so we are coward
    as well.
    
    Marc
    P.S. and 'they' wonder why some quebecquers are considering other
    options. Let me tell you, That i do not have a lot of respect for
    the people that are questionning the value of a different culture.
    

    re: .10 & .11
    
    Pardon?
    
    Jean, where did you get that article from, who wrote it, and what was
    it written in response to?  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me as the
    only references to Bangladesh that I recall were related to the
    physical separation of the Atlantic Provinces from the rest of Canada
    should Qu�bec cecede.  No one mentioned famine, let alone related
    Bangladesh with Qu�bec.
    
    Marc, who are 'they'?  And who are the people that question the value
    of different cultures?  My reading (of this notesfile) is that people
    are questioning the use of legal bludgeons not the culture itself.
    
    Cheers,
    	Bob
    
    BTW, in all cases where a group is oppressed one has the choice of
    lowering the oppressor or raising the oppressed.  Both will give
    equality, only one improves the lot of the oppressed.

    re last. 
    
    I don't understand who is questioning the value of a differant culture?
    Certainly not in anything I've read so far. 
    No one questions the French Culture, or the Enlgish culture or the
    Chinese culture or ANY culture for that matter. 
    
    I think the article was only trying to point out that with Quebecs
    (and it did mention the Atlantic provinces as well) current 
    unemployment rate, dependancy on federal funding, and political
    problems, that it would not be wise for the US to inherit the
    province and all of it's problems. 
    Quebec would not be able to pull the things they are pulling now. 
    In the US, you would NOT be able to say "if you speak X you will be
    expelled", or "you will not have your sign in X language or you will
    be fined". I don't know of ANY free country in the world who would
    permit that kind of OPPRESSION to occur. (but I don't know EVERY
    country and it's customs...of course Iran is probably a possibility).
    
    Speaking of:  WHILE the French speaking Canadians of Quebec were 
    oppressed (which I am still not clear on), were there laws saying that
    ALL signs MUST be in ENGLISH ONLY?
    
    PSS: I didn't know that PQ didn't want to join in WWI or II. What was
    the reasoning? Did we not see Hitler as a threat? I have never heard
    that before. 
    
    -c-
    If it is true, then it was before my time.
    And I'm old. 

Re .12

.10 (Jean) is referring to the base note, I believe.

cal

RE: 325.11 MQOA02::LEBEL "Moi mes souliers avons beaucoup..."

>   Jean you forgot to mention that we didn't want to be part of the
>   second world war and the first for that matter, so we are coward
>   as well.
    
>   Marc
 
Marc,  Can you clarify this?  I have heard that national service during 
the 2nd World War was not mandatory in Quebec even though Canada had 
declared war on Germany.  I find this hard to believe since most of the 
Canadians who gave their lives lost them in France while helping to free
that country.  Why wouldn't French Canadians help the French?  I know of
several Quebec Anglophones who did fight in WW II.
                                         
- Gerry

    ditto the last question. My Dad was in France in WWII. Why did Quebec
    decide not to go?
    
    -c-

re: .13 by -c- PITT 

�    re last. 
    
    Was this supposed to be re: .11?

    re: .14 by cal HOE
    
    Note .10 by Jean refers to an article in the Montr�al Gazette.
    
    My questions to Jean were related to the article and it's author.

    Re. 10
    
    Are you sure you are/were not referring to Clyde Wells' NeFld ?
    
    The economy of Quebec is probably stronger than the economy of
    most of the southern US states. 'cept Texas ? 
    
    [I mean one-on-one comparison. Like Quebec's economy compared to Alabama's
    
    BTW: One US newspaper report stated this:
    
    [ A tourist agency named GLOBAL EXCHANGE has anounced a series of
     tours entiled "Third World in US-America"
     The tour intends to escort tourists to areas of Virginia and West
     Virginia - the appalacian coal mining areas to show them living
     conditions right in our backyards light years away from the glitz
     of Hollywood. ]
    
     This tourist agency is based in San Francisco. A 64 year old woman
     from Minneapolis said "..curiosity drew her and nine others on a
     ten day journey billed as Appalachia: Third World in United States"
       
      Anybody else heard of this ?
     
     Perhaps the 20% Quebecers which W.S.Journal claimed wanted to "join"
     the US Americans can take a few of those trips as a form of orientation.
    

    The article was titled "Montr�al OFFICE Gazette", I composed it and a
    previous note attributed it to THE Gazette so it is quite easy to see
    how the truth or even fiction can and does get distorted when it is:
    posted from memory OR translated.  As to french Canadians refusing to
    enlist and go to war, it is quite true, I guess we must be pacifists.
    Then again it took a declaration of war for the US to enter both world
    wars whereas Canada was at war only to defend the crown jewels (if I
    had a choice between my "jewels" and the crown's, just guess which ones
    I would protect).  BTW were all these draft dodgers from the
    Viet-Nam war unpatriotic?
    
    Jean
    

It wasn't just French-speaking Canadians who refused to go to war,
English-speaking Canadians had a mutiny at Terrace, BC; in the Somme;
and AFTER WWI, in England because they weren't allowed to go home.

Conscription in both wars was met with riots, not as many as in Qu�bec,
but still in other parts of Canada.  During WWII, conscription
for 'home service' was prevalent but you had to 'volunteer' to go
overseas (what a laugh).

On the other hand, I wouldn't call General Georges Vanier and the 'Van
Doos' a bunch of 'Uncle Toms' for distinguishing themselves.

I'm not a monarchist so it came as a bloody great surprise to hear
that Jacques Parizeau asked for respect for the institution of the
monarchy, and that he was actually FOND of the Queen.  My God!! Man
can give birth!

    Jacques only said that because he wants to be king of La Premi�re
    R�publique Ind�pendante du Qu�bec Souverain or because he got used to
    her face on all our coins and bills (ok the old ones) she did kinda
    look nice in 1955, but if he ever saw the old bag today, he may just
    change his mind.
    
    Jean
    

    Re .24
    
    As French Canadians refused to go war. Chinese Canadians as I heard
    volunteered to serve the country in WWII. Even though the Chinese
    population in Canada now stands around 800,000, a visible minority, we
    have been trying hard to serve the country such as building the trans
    Canada railway, many had died during its construction. We the only
    minority required to pay the head tax, but we still love the country.

In WWI, my Uncle Dan just turned 18 so he was subject to
conscription. Just prior to WWI, the head tax for each chinese
baby was imposed on the Chinese immigrants (note, they are
immigrants only because they were not given citizenship,
including those that were born in Canada ).

My grand father sent Uncle Dan back to China to study in a
chinese university.

But that is past. The Chinese-Canadians are represented in
Canadian politics and are very much part of Canadian society.

cal

    Hey Jean,
    
    I'm not a monarchist either so it amuses me when a person, such
    as yourself (intelligent?) starts calling the Queen a BAG. Sounds
    pretty childish. I've always wondered why French Canadians felt
    that way. But just to show you that I'm sometimes childish myself
    I always felt the same way about DeGaule (sp?). Why the French revered
    this gutless wonder I'll never know? And why he spent the war in
    England when he hated the country and the people so much tells me
    a lot about him.
    
    Ted (a CANADIAN QUEBECER)

    Interesting consideration too is that Jacques Parizeau is a graduate
    of Oxford ... no wonder he speaks impecable English.  But, that said,
    Oxford and Cambridge seem to breed more than their fair share of
    revolutionaries, including, I believe Khadaffi.
    

    ok ok ok, replace bag by hag.  We used to call Ren� Levesque "ti-poil",
    Trudeau was PET etc etc.  People in the limelight do get that treatment
    and they should not get upset by it, neither should you.
    
    Jean
    

    I'm not sure your replacement was any better ... in fact, I'd say
    it was worse.  I dunno about not getting upset by it ... I think
    either word has a lot of disrespect associated with it.  There is
    a certain parallel to walking on flags potentially at stake here.
    
    I think what you are probably trying to find is one of those non-
    committal nicknames like Mulroney is often referred to as Mulooney
    after the introduction of the famed coin.  Not really an insult, but
    not really a pet name either.  I cannot think of such a name of hand
    for the queen ... but neither hag nor bag cut it ...  In England
    you might use the term "some old dear" to describe an old woman,
    but not meaning that she was endearing at all (but not meaning that
    she wasn't either).  Just to prove how confusing it is though, at the
    same time we might say "be a dear ..." and intend endearment.
    
    

Or, one could take a page from the Irish and call her 'ElizaBrit'.
That ain't too bad, is it?  Or, Betty Windsor, maybe?  At least
Windsor is ahelluva lot better than Saxe Coburg und Gothe.

Other examples abound where the 'people in the limelight' are given
irreverent names:

	Brian Mulroney      		Lyin' Brian, the jaw that walks,
					The Prime Mover, The Right Horrible
					Brain Baloney.

	Margaret Thatcher		The Iron Lady, Attila the Hen


	Jean Chr�tien			Jean Cretin

	Richard Nixon			Richard Nixon


By the way Jean, I printed the Digital-Qu�bec logo.  Impressive, except for
the pink border.  Should it have been red?  Maybe I should reset my colour
map.

Pat

    ok, I retract everything I said about Her Majesty, it was not meant in
    disrespect not any more than crowning Jacques Parizeau King.
    
    BTW, you can buy $74's worth of Qu�bec's future currency for $2.49
    (Canadian) at some convenience stores and they have replaced Her
    Majesty's portrait with Lucien Bouchard on the $2, Jacquo on the $5 and
    Ti-poil on both the $10 and $20.  They could have put a different
    picture on the $10, like Lord Dorchester, after all Ren�'s name has
    replaced his on what used to be boulevard Dorchester.
    
    Jean
    
    I solemly promise never to make light of the British monarchy as long
    as Stuart could be aware of the delations I may have professed.
    
    PS Stuart do you know what kind of motorcycle I ride these days?
    
    A NORTON, true British iron!  well at least this limey (no disrespect
    intended here) follows MY commands, sometimes because it seems to have
    a mind of it's own once in a while.
      

>    BTW, you can buy $74's worth of Qu�bec's future currency for $2.49
>    (Canadian) at some convenience stores and they have replaced Her
    
    Reminders of the days when some enterprise shipped out fake Confederate
    Money.
    
>    I solemly promise never to make light of the British monarchy as long
>    as Stuart could be aware of the delations I may have professed.
    
    Sorry Jean, I cannot always be around to save you from the monarchists
    and royalists. :-)    Anyways ... people believe I'm a monarchist
    and they might be right!  One day the wolves will get you! :-) :-) :-)
    
    Stuart

    re .27
    
    ditto (and however you say ditto en Francais)
    
    :-)

    I don't have any feelings about the Queen either way. I just wish
    they'd stop calling her the "Queen of Canada". Irish people keep
    telling me my country is ruled by England which reall ticks me off.
    The strange thing is that I pay a ground rent on my house in Dublin
    and the money actually goes to some English landlord somewhere in
    England. And the Irish try to tell me they got rid of the Brits.
    
    Ted.

    As the Queen of England, she is the Canadian Head of State, and as
    such the title Queen of Canada makes perfect sense.  I'm not sure of
    the actual "correctness" of the term, although I've heard it from
    high ranking officials here.  She is also described as Queen of
    Australia and just about every other commonwealth country that
    recognizes her as head of state.  I've also heard her referred to
    as Queen of the Commonwealth.
    
    Until 198? when the Canadian constitution was patriated, it was a
    British act of parliament, so apart from her figurehead position
    of head of state, Canada is no longer in a legal sense ruled by
    England.
    
    Many might say we are ruled far more by the US than England, even
    though we are a sovereign nation!
    
    Stuart

>Queen of Canada... not sure of the actual "correctness" of the term

It's exactly as correct as "Queen of England."  Her actual full title
includes both, as well as all the other places she's queen of.

>Canada is no longer in a legal sense ruled by England.

True with respect to Parliament, but nothing changed with respect to
the monarchy.  'Course she's just as much your Queen as theirs, so I
s'pose that means England is ruled by the Queen of Canada...

/john

>True with respect to Parliament, but nothing changed with respect to
>the monarchy.  'Course she's just as much your Queen as theirs, so I
>s'pose that means England is ruled by the Queen of Canada...
    
    I daresay that is true if you can call our Constitutional Monarchs
    actual rulers.  Although technically possible, I cannot for one
    moment imagine the Queen actually "ruling".
    
    Stuart

    re .38
    
    Isn't it the case that the Queen's powers in Canada are delegated
    to the Governor-General?
    
    Tony

    I know the significance of the Queen as a figure-head in Canada.
    It's all those other non-Canadians who keep telling me all about
    my own country. And everything they tell me is wrong. I don't tell
    the Irish about Ireland. I feel they know more about their own country
    than I do but in a some cases I'm not so sure.
                                                                          
    My wife's uncle, who is Welsh, keeps telling me that the national
    anthem of Canada is The Maple Leaf Forever. I've given up arguing.
    
    Ted.

    <<My wife's uncle, who is Welsh, keeps telling me that the national
    <<anthem of Canada is The Maple Leaf Forever. I've given up arguing.
    
Anyone who has a leek as a 'national' emblem has got to be questionable.

Pat

    
    You mean it's not The Maple Leaf Forever????..say it isn't so!!!!
    
    No wonder I've had such a hard time trying to fit the words to the
    tune they keep playing at all the hockey games...
    

    Rumor has it that the Tories wanted a new national anthem for Canada
    anyway...you know, the one where people at baseball games are polite to
    some Mexicans...(`Jose can you see...').
    
    I never even *heard* _The Maple Leaf Forever_ until I was in my teens.
    
    ...laura

    
    I s this the new anthem for Jose Canseco in honour of his pathetic
    28 million dolaar contract???
    
    Best keep the polticians especially the senators away from this
    guys business manager.
    

    re: .41 by Pat
    
    Careful Pat,  That's my mum you're talking about.

    
    re .39 -
    Yes, please let's hear more about the GOVERNOR-GENERAL.
    Is it within the authority of the governor-general to
    suspend operation of some parts of the government?
    
    For example, to close the water faucet before the Grand Canal
    has become totally filled?
    

    re .46
    
    Just as it is in the power of the Queen to do assorted things to
    alter the operation of government, so it is with the g-g, since
    the g-g is the agent of the Queen in Canada.  Now, in practice, the
    only time the monarch or her agent gets involved is when the p.m.
    requests her action, such as for the dissolution of parliament to
    call an election., or to call by-elections.  These are all in fact
    actions of the monarch and not the p.m.
    
    So, yes it is within the authority of the g-g to suspend operation
    of some parts of the government and he/she regularly does so !
    
    Stuart

    The Queen, Governors General and Lieutenant Governors are, in theory,
    the final decision makers - no bill may become law without their
    assent, which these days means a rubber stamp. In theory the same lot
    appoint cabinet members, but, again, this merely means rubberstamping a
    list proposed by the Premier or Prime Minister.
    
    I only know of one occasion where Royal Assent was witheld - a
    Lieutenant Governor sent a bill back for another look.
    
    ...laura

The G-G is hardly a figure head I'd say. The last one had enough power to put 
the police at the gates of her back yard and keep out all tourists and 
assorted ottawa rifraf (who were fond of taking strolls thru the grouds.

Now when it seems that they are turning this decision around, no-one kan be 
found who made the orignal decision and everyone says "not my shift!". So 
noone can take this much wanted stroll yet.

Thats the best thing about canada, don't you think....trying to make those 
summer guards loose their cool and blink? I betcha amerika has no institution 
like this!

my .02c worth on the g-g

F

    If you were willing to pay, you could put up fences and gates around
    your house and pay for security guards as well to keep out tourists
    and assorted ottawa rifraf too you know!  Mind you do people apart
    from the paper deliverer, mail person and junk delivery people take
    regular strolls through your yard ?
    
    This is hardly POWER !
    
    

    You say the G-G is but a rubber stamp. However:
    
    I had heard that the G-G in Australia dissolved Parliament
    and effectively dismissed the Prime Minister, without
    the Prime Minister wanting these to happen, some time in the
    1970's.
    
    Is that true, and could it happen again, and, could it
    happen in Canada as well?  Were there special circumstances
    in Australia at the time, enabling the G-G to do the above,
    which do not normally exist? Is there some absolute
    constitutional check on the G-G's power, or is he merely
    trusted, by those ruled, not to do anything arbitrary or nasty?
    
    Now, we all know who the queen's art-curator was, back in
    the 50's, right. Blunt or Blount or something?
    

    
    The G-G does not have to disolve parliament when requested by the
    Prime Minister. 
    
    In at least one instance in Canada where the government was in a
    minority, the G-G refused to do this and requested the opposition
    to form a government. This prevented a second election very shortly
    after the one which elected the minority.
    
    In Ontario, the current Liberal government came about exactly because
    of this. The Lt-G requested that the Liberals, who were in opposition
    at the time, be given a chance to govern. As the Liberals had come
    to an understanding with the NDP, they were able to do so. They
    then swept the next election.
    
    So the G-G and the Lt-Gs do have power. However their primary function,
    as is that of the Queen, is to act as unbiased advisors to the
    government and to provide continuity regardless of who gets elected.
    
    Roger

    Very true, but this is totally within their anticipated and expected
    mandate.  It's not as if it is something they have done by an abuse
    of their power.  It is a part of the system and a reasonable one too
    given the cost of an election and the fact that essentially between
    the date of dissolution and after the election, the province or country
    is essentially ungoverned.
    
    I have no problem with this power.
    
    I have vague memories of the event mentioned in Australia, but cannot
    remember the details...  I would presume again it had to have been
    within the defined powers of g-g / Queen in Australia's constitutional
    monarchy.  Remember also, that it is very likely that Australia's
    g-g may have different constitutional powers than ours.
    
    Stuart

    The article in .0 displays typically this disgusting, $-driven only,
    primitive point of view, which makes certain groups in certain
    countries so popular around the world (I mean among those people
    who have some brains left from $-thinking and for whom 'culture'
    is not a four-letter-word)
    
    R.

re:      <<< Note 325.54 by GYPSC::FORST "Rainer Forst @UFC DTN 773-3222" >>>


	You seem to have a very limited view of this whole affair. There
	are many other places in this world (ie New Orleans, New Brunswick)
	that have thriving French cultures WITHOUT a need to legislate
	one into existance.

	I see the reasoning behind ensuring a dominent french presence in
	Quebec, but no one has the right (IMO) to ban the use of other
	languages in any society. This has been done in Quebec.

	Charlie

    'Banning':
    
    	There are (at least) 3 major universities in Montr�al which offer
        their services predominantly in english. Banning?
    	Same true for media. Banning?
    	Same true for sport arenas (Bilingual in 80% french crowd - Forum)
    	Banning?
    
    The 'french cultures' in New Orleans (look at the NAME!) are
    'generously' treated minorities. Alone this completely out-of-balance
    comparison displays a limited view. The people in Quebec are NOT this
    kind of 'exotes', IMO.
    
    To open up your limited view:
    Try to understand that Quebec (and other regions in the world fighting
    for their cultural identity) sometimes desperately try to avoid being
    treated like 'cute little minorities' (see your comparison) ON THEIR
    HISTORICAL HOME TURF by sometimes 'overshooting' regulations.
    The point is, that these regulations do not count in reality (or are
    less dangerous). Real 'banning' is not loi 101 etc., real banning is
    not providing educational facilities/media, is this ignorant and
    careless and respectless assimilation approach. So, in the aspect which
    really counts, Quebec is FAR more non-banning than any other place in
    North-America. You can prove me wrong if you show me a place in that
    continent where you can get along as comfortably as a french-only
    person as you can in Quebec as an english-only. Real every day street-
    live and attitudes count, not some 'banning laws' and stuff like that.
    The latter would be a very limited view.
    
    There is a famous sequence in a Woddy Allen movie. Somebody is asked
    about some other country (don't know exactly which) and says "It was
    nice, but they don't speak english!". Very unfortunately more than a
    joke, and in Quebec you can feel that attitude the strongest (of
    course), but also here in europe. As said elsewhere, I hope that the
    inclusion of eastern europe into the 'functioning' and open part of the
    world will also act as a 'fortress' against the un(i)-cultural
    'porridge'.
    
    Insisting on cultural distinctnesses has nothing to do with banning,
    is not racism or 'limited view of yesterday', but is aimed towards
    mutual respect and cultural richness of this world, IMO.
    
    R.

    RE: .55
    
    Speaking of limited view, since when has Qu�bec "banned" the use of
    other language? No wonder people from other countries can get confused,
    with all that harsh, biased, difformed, prejudiced information
    scattered around. I believe Rainer has a much better understanding
    of the French problem than a lot of Anglo-canadians. The way you
    reason, I am surprised you don't yell at governments for legislating
    smoking, hunting, crimes etc... Legislations are there to prevent 
    previous problems to re-occur. It is often an extreme solution when
    there are no other alternatives. What is YOUR alternative to the problem?
    It is easy to criticize, very hard to understand and for most people,
    impossible to see solutions. I think that only understanding and mutual
    respect would have chances of success. Like Rainer mentioned in some
    of his notes, if a basic respect and attitude of the cultures we
    encounter or live with, would be naturally expressed (like learning the 
    language, at least basics, or even try to) there would never be any
    problem. But too many people try to impose their own culture and 
    language and when this breach of basic human respect forces the
    other to use extreme solutions (like legislate) to protect himself,
    then they point the finger at him and accuse him of their own sins.
    Sorry, too easy! People react to you the way you make them. If you
    are friendly, people will be friendly, if you attack them, they either
    fight back or protect themselves. The second solution is a much more
    peaceful solution, I am glad it is the one that was choosen by Qu�bec.
    
    One thing for sure, this conference is an extremely mild barometer of
    the actual language problem that Canada faces, because of the Notes
    context, but a good barometer anyways. I, for one, has read enough and
    I admire Jean for his patience. I give up, before I forget the context,
    I am going back to the FRENCH conference.
    
    Michel pure laine (DELETE ENTRY CANADIAN)
                           

	Its the law...take a look. French is the only language
	that must be visible on the street in Quebec...give me
	a break.

	Also, a law that effectively forbids the flying of the
	country's flag! Since when does a province take precedence
	over the country!

	As for English universities in Montreal;
	it is only a matter of time before that situation is
	corrected by the Quebec government of choice.

	I grew up in Quebec...Montreal to be exact. I worked in
	alot of the northern towns in my teens. The people there
	were nice people. I learned french in those years and enjoyed
	the experience. While learning french in these northern towns,
	I found the people to be quite tolerent of my halted french.

	On my return to Montreal, I tried to use my new found language
	and what did I get; disdainful and reproachful people who
	have been manipulated by the media to hate me...for Christ
	sake I have French Canadian blood in my viens but I just don't
	speak the language too well.

	Well I have now moved to Ottawa, the west end, I have forgotten
	most of my accomplishment (learning french) through lack of
	use. I want no part of what Quebec has come. If this hurts some
	of you out there, so be it. Its how I feel, bitter for the
	experience.

	At least I tried,

	Charlie
	

< Note 325.54 by GYPSC::FORST "Rainer Forst @UFC DTN 773-3222" >

>>>..countries so popular around the world (I mean among those people
    who have some brains left from $-thinking and for whom 'culture'
    is not a four-letter-word)
    
    Is the word "F O O D"

calvin

    .58
    
    You get the bitter reaction of something major going wrong.
    
    AND: There are french-canadian ignorant assholes, too, as all over the 
    world.
    
    But in principle it is my honest opinion that what has been said in the
    previous entries holds.
    
    My experience was, being able to speak english a lot better than french
    and thus sometimes being mixed up with an anglo, that i was received
    with warm welcome once I tried to speak french or asked to speak
    english. I find this a natural reaction. 
    
    R.

re:      <<< Note 325.56 by GYPSC::FORST "Rainer Forst @UFC DTN 773-3222" >>>

	You keep using the word porridge every time you look at
	culture and when you say culture you always seem to use
	the word language.

	Do you equate language with culture? Certainly language
	is a part of culture but its not the whole ball of wax.

	Travel across North America, or Canada or even Ontario (or
	Quebec). Ignore the language issue and just look at culture,
	I mean get down with the people, visit a neighborhood bar or
	something. Don't look at the TV and see someone elses view.

	If you do this, I'll guaranty you a thriving cultural
	enviroment. Hey, Quebec is one of the best examples. It had
	no culture 400 years ago, its forging its own culture.
	Before anyone screams at this one, think about it. Quebec's
	culture is a far cry from that of France.
	
	I applaud this distinction, this breath of fresh air in the
	threat of cities like Montreal and the porridge that they imply,
	but when my family is constantly threatened with laws and
	restrictions from the government, I'm sorry, but that gets my
	back up.

	I lived there, I know what it felt like. It was prosecution in
	its highest form. The exact thing that the French themselves
	complain was done to them by the English!

	Charlie

    Oh, I lived there, too, went to bars both in the Crescent Street area
    AND St. Denis, as well as places like Trois-Rivieres, Ottawa etc.
    Have friends, both 'anglo' and 'french'. And as an european i'm not
    a TV-addict (by definition, so-to-speak). Don't let get us down to
    that,
    otherwise I start to compare the quality of TV/media ... better not
    for you ...
    
    Sure culture is not = language, but to an extend it is. Being german
    nobody has to tell me that there are very different cultures within one
    language boundary, like in our country. That was not the point in
    these notes.
    
    R.

    Re.  GYPSEC::FORST
    
    Great/excellent notes! Refreshing ! 
    
    Why should Jean be the only one *required to answer for Quebec ?
    Who answers for the anglo-canadians ? A Canadian is a Canadian. Wrong ?
    
    
    Re. 58  Check the psychological meaning of AMBIVALENCE then also check
    what a neurotic form of ethnocentrism is. 
    
     FaZari.

    	Hey FaZari, what about me?!? I thought I pitched in for Jean pretty
    good while he was away!
    
    Glenn (A Qu�becer and a Canadian)
    

    Maybe you did, but you still refused to discuss how it was I didn't
    understand ....
    
    Stuart
    
     1st an individual
     2nd a Canadian
     3rd an Ontarian
     4th etc.....
    
    I certainly do not rate being an Ontarian more important than being
    Canadian ... never would, never will ... not that I'm not proud of it

What French culture in New Orleans?

Oh, you mean the one that speaks only English, and sort of remembers a few
French words from songs and such?

/john

    Having travelled to both Louisiana and New Brunswick, I can testify
    that french is only alive as a cultural reminder of a distant past in
    the first location (and only on street signs and toumbstones at that)
    and is being rapidly stamped out in the latter.
    
    Hey Mr. Lacaille, if I had done what you have done, I would not be
    writing these notes now.  The key is try and try again until you get it
    right.
    
    As for rights, I will write some more when I come back from vacation or
    have some more free time on my hands.
    
    Jean
    

    That reminds me that any time I write to an address in a foreign place,
    I use an address format and spelling etc that is used in the
    destination, with any necessary clarification for local postal
    authorities to get it to the destination.
    
    For example, I never translate, either spoken or written the names of
    streets.  For example the new CTH facility is on Boulevard des Haut
    Plaines ... I would never translate any part of that ... although
    I have seen High Plains Blvd. and Haute Plaines Blvd.  Similarly
    when sending mail abroad ... place names are left "au naturel" and
    a translation only provided if it might be unclear for the local
    post office here.  e.g.  Ghent, 
                             Vlanderen (Flanders), 
    			     Belges (Belgium)
    
    I have seen roads in West Qu�bec with English names being translated to 
    French ... for example between Hull and Aylmer is Mountain Road ... it 
    always used to have a signposts that said Mountain Road ... they've been 
    replace recently by "Rue de la Montagne".  The Ontario commuinity of 
    Orleans (no accent) is trying to change it's name to Orl�ans.
    
    Stuart

Ahh, so the English aren't the only ones to be found translating 'foreign'
names into their native language, eh?

So where's the complaint, now?

    I used to live in Quebec, in a place called Val Cartier (I think), and
    though I was only 4, I very quickly learned to speak French. My best
    friend's Mother was a French Teacher, so I learned to speak 'real'
    French. (No insult, slur or whatever intende here. Sorry) Although my 
    Mom and Dad could never speak French, I have great memories of being 
    treated so friendly by the rest of the community. We were always
    invited to their local festivities. (My Dad was in the army so we moved
    around a lot, and consequently we never really got to know our
    communities that we lived in)
    
    It saddens me to think that this might not happen anymore. It didn't
    matter about the languages, we were all Canadian.
    
    I take Rainers point about Anglos not bothering to try to speak another
    language. I comment on it all the time. It bothers me when I go to
    mainland Europe, and large groups of multinationals get together, and 
    they all end up speaking English, so the Anglos don't get left out
    and so well, too. I am ashamed to say that I cannot speak French
    anymore, and all attempts to relearn it have failed miserably. I will
    try again this autumn. However, I can speak enough German to hold a
    half decent conversation (I used to be better, but I have forgotten
    so much) and I can speak enough Spanish to get by. I have just returned
    from a Holiday in Greece. I found that if they didn't speak English,
    they spoke German, but occaisionaly, they spoke neither, so I had a go
    and did a good job.(Boy, their alphabet is tough !)
    
    I do hope that the current problems can be sorted out amicably, and
    that at the end of the day, all will be friends again.
    
    Wayne.
    
    P.S.
    Rainer, do you live very far from Frieburg in the Schwarzwald ? I will
    be visiting my Dad close to there (Lahr) at the end of September. If you 
    are not to far, maybe you can buy me 'ein bier' in a Gasthoff. 

    Wayne,
    
    no i'm not living near to Freiburg/Schwarzwald, and I will also most
    likely be out of the country by that date (probably at your side of the
    pond). That for the friendly invitation anyways.
    
    AND: No sane person can hold the fact that english is a
    'quasi-standard' around the world against the anglophones. Nobody
    (sane) has
    a problem with that. The problems arise when - say - the less delicate
    members of the 'anglophonie' display the attitude that they regard it
    as the 'real', mandatory standard, which unfortunately happens
    sometimes. In fact, sometimes I feel sorry for the anglophones, because
    they are not forced to the same extend to learn foreign languages as we
    germans and other 'main-land europeans' (and other people around the
    globe) are. Some laziness is human and if german was this
    'quasi-standard' i have no problems to admit that my knowledge of
    languages would be weaker. Both english and french are more important
    than german. I learned those languages (as good as possible). It's
    mainly a 'market-driven' mechanism and we, the speakers of the 'minor'
    languages, are 'privileged' in the sense that we feel a stronger
    pressure. I'm now considering what is next, spanish or russian.
    Spanish is more important around the world, russian is a 'neighbouring'
    language (even more so after the latest political developments), still
    don't know.
    
    R.
    
    

    Thanks for the invitation, i mean, of course
    ------
    

	re .71

>    pressure. I'm now considering what is next, spanish or russian.
>    Spanish is more important around the world, russian is a 'neighbouring'
>    language (even more so after the latest political developments), still

	Germany is separated from Spain by France.
	Germany is separated from Russia by Poland, Czechoslovakia, etc.

	Why is Russian "neighbouring" and Spanish not?

	Tony

    .73
    
    You are right, that needs clarifications:
    
    	- Spain is in the Europ. Common market, like Germany, but I don't
          think we have especially strong economical or political relations
          with Spain. If it was for Spain alone (and not the whole south
          and middle america as well), not many here would even think about
          learning spanish.
    
    	- The french culture, a strong representative of the global
          'francophonie', is much more of an isolating factor between
          germany and spain than Poland, which is and was always strong-
          ly influenced by Russia and Germany, can isolate germany and
          russia. That is the historical problem of Poland, those
          'influences' were for the most part not really positive, as we
          all know, but it is a fact (no new german imperialism meant at
          all) that you can get along in Poland speaking german and/or
          russian, while you cannot get along in France speaking german
          and/or spanish. So, in effect, we see Poland and Russia within
          a 'neighbouring' block, while Spain and France look very distinct
          for us. I hope I could make this point clear and I also hope that
          nobody understands that as a new 'downgrading' of Poland.
    
    	- the most important aspect, as always, is business. Many here hope
          that the new political devel. in eastern and central europe gives us
          (Germany) a tremendous market chance in eastern europe, the
          representative 'neighbour' being russia, because it is so big
          and thus has much more business potential relative to the other
          ex-socialistic countries in central and south-eastern europe.
    	  Spain, of course, is not such a representative for western
          europe.
    
    For those reasons I think your comparison cannot hold.
    
    Finally, as ugly as they were in history for the most part, the ties
    between germany and poland as well as russia were closer traditionally
    (and will probably develop  again in that direction, this time
    hopefully positive for the most part) than they were to the Iberian
    peninsula (Spain and Portugal; I can hardly imagine a more 'remote'
    europ. country from my german point of view than Portugal). Germany is
    not western europe, it is central europe, as Poland, Hungary, CSFR are
    as well. That difference is for real, it was just overlaid by the
    result of WWII.
    
    That is my opinion/feeling, I can't claim to speak for all germans, but
    i'm definitely not alone with that point of view.
    
    R.
    
    

	I still find it very funny that a province in this country
	can legislate its flag to have precedence over its country's.

	Gee, I wonder if the Armed Forces were forced to cover their
	insignia with fleur-de-lys while in Quebec...Ha!

	Re: Desrosier

	Its kinda like banging your head against the wall, it feels
	so good when you stop.
	As for French cultures in New Orleans and New Brunswick, yes
	they are cultures derived from a French background. Maybe they
	no longer speak french, but whats your point.

	re: .62 (FaZari.)

	Not ambivalence at all. I like the culture I hate the politics
	Sorta like hating oranges and liking apples. Since you seem to
	have an opinion on this matter, why don't you share it with all
	of us in a more comprehensive manner. I look forward to an
	erudite observation from an adjudicator such as yourself.


	Respectfully,

	Charlie

	ps  A question of interest for our German friend. In Belgium,
	    how have the various governments handled the language issue.
	    Have there in fact been any tyrannical decisions to tip the
	    language scale in any way?

	    I am truly interested.

    Re. Note 325.75 by POLAR::LACIALLE
    
    >> re: .62 (FaZari) >>
    
    Wrong dancing partner my dear! Note 325.62 was posted by GYPSEC::FORST
    Go back and check!  

    Well, when asked, I answer:
    
    I claim to know Canada/Quebec better that Belgium (funny enough, I
    used to live a mile away from the Belgium border for about 5 years),
    but I can tell you that Yes they do have language/culture problems
    and Yes there were some 'tyrannical' developments (mostly on
    city/county levels). 
    
    But if you want to try to compare that to Canada you are royally wrong
    (I don't say you ARE trying to compare, just in case).
    The french part of Belgium is neighbouring the 'mother' France, as does
    the french part of Switzerland. The 'francophonie' in north-america
    (Quebec for the most part) is isolated. A BIG difference. Here in
    Europe they don't have the fear to be culturally extinguished (not even
    virtually), in Quebec some of them (not too few, I think) do.
    
    You brought up yourselves Louisiana and New Brunswick. As I understand,
    this is exactly what the Quebecois don't want to be eventually, a cute,
    ancient, folkloristic minority, good for sight-seeing (maybe to
    experience a pseudo-european feeling without crossing the atlantic
    ["Oh, it's so european, isn't it honey?"; heared that in ville de
    Quebec very often], but not respected as a real 'societ� distincte'.
    
    I don't blame them for not wanting to be like that.
    
    R.