Conference kaosws::canada

    I heard something quite similar while travelling in the States
    this week...something about a town or state or something declaring
    English as the only official language, and that everyone was up
    in arms because it violated the American constitution or some
    international freedom of expression thing....
    
    Too bad Canadians don't have something like that to prevent unfair
    language laws like in Quebec....
    
    Bob.

    The inequality in Quebec holds because they are a minority in the
    English North America, they have to do something to protect their
    heritage and language, otherwise they will be drowned by the
    overwhelming American English. However, it seems to me that if you look
    closely, America itself is also having the same problem, trying to
    protect English from the invading Spanish from the south. The world
    is changing. Let history speak for itself.

�    The inequality in Quebec holds because they are a minority in the
�    English North America, they have to do something to protect their
�    heritage and language, ...
    
    
    I would agree except for a couple of points.
    
    While in the context of north america francophones are in a
    (relatively) small minority, in Canada they make up about one third
    of the population.  I also believe that french (and french culture)
    is still alive in Louisiana, and french speaking Americans are a far 
    smaller minority.
    
    I'm sure there must be better ways to protect you culture and heritage
    than negating your neighbours culture and heritage.
                        
    Bob

>I also believe that french (and french culture) is still alive in Louisiana,

Not really.

    re. French culture in Louisiana

    	The only thing left is Cajun cooking and a real weird dialect.
    Living in a swamp will do that to you though....
    
    I believe the Grand Canal will solve Canada's language problem!
    
    Glenn 8-)

The Grand Canal notwithstanding, the language debacle in Canada is
essentially polarized by two issues: survival and economics.

The survival of the French language is paramount wherever you find
Francophones, and rightly so.

The economics of providing French services and schools is paramount
in non-Francophone communities, and that is not necessarily right.  Sudbury,
Ontario is a designated bilingual community but the additional costs
to the taxpayer were minimal, and most importantly, politically acceptable.

The acceptance of the fact that Canada is a cultural and linguistic mosiac
has not yet achieved universality; moreover, in light of recent
events it would appear that some believe that Canada should be a melting-
pot with one predominant flavour.  What a bland soup!

Pat

    Part of the resistance to official bilingualism is the fact that
    Francophone Canadians are geographically quite concentrated. Here in
    B.C., for example, French is about number 5 on the list of languages
    spoken, after English, Chinese, Japanese and German (or something like
    that). If we don't provide government services in Chinese (we don't),
    why do so in French, which far fewer people speak?
    
    This is all part of a steadily more global world, which is becoming
    increasingly English speaking. *All* other languages are slowly dying
    out. I make no comment on whether this is a good thing, except for the
    observation that if you only speak one languages, then you don't really
    understand it. You must learn another language in order to peroperly
    understand your own.
    
    ...laura

    >> If we don't provide government services in Chinese (we don't),
    >> why do so in French, which far fewer people speak?
    
    I think that 1 good arguement in having to provide French language 
    servces in the B.C. government would be the simple fact that
    French and English are Canada's official languages (not Chinese,
    Spanish, etc.)
    
    Alan    
    

>        B.C., for example, French is about number 5 on the list of languages
>    spoken, after English, Chinese, Japanese and German (or something like
>    that). If we don't provide government services in Chinese (we don't),
>    why do so in French, which far fewer people speak?

    As -.1 said French is officially recognized second language in Canada
    whereas, the above are not. Incidentally, for the languages mentioned
    above, government services are indeed provided in relevant areas, even
    in B.C., - customs/airports/immigration etc.

    As someone once said, (paraphrasing),"a true measure of an enlightened
    democracy in its regard and value of its minorities (opinion/cultures,etc)"

    If we were to do what the Soo (what a bastardized name for
    Sault-Sainte-Marie) did on a provincial scale, where less than 10% of
    the population is english speaking, we would be trated as racists of
    facists.  La ville de Qu�bec, has LESS than 2% english population, yet
    there is an english language tv station and some radio stations.  They
    have a school system (public funded) so who's being treated fairly????
    
    Montr�al (85% french thus NOT officially bilingual) has english school
    boards (public funded) english hospitals (public funded) english radio
    and tv (public funded)!  If we are anything, we are stupid for paying
    for those things, not racists!
    
    Jean
    

    One important thing about the inequality is the perception people
    outside Quebec have, they usually refer to the sign law. I really don't
    understand how Bourassa can come up with this idea, it creates a lot of
    tension and the Federal government did not say anything about it. Now,
    the water is boiling. 

    re: .7 and .8:
    
    Yes, I know French is an official language in Canada, just as much as
    English is. Federal Government services are available in both
    languages. However, I don't know of any provincial or municipal
    government services in French. Regardless of the official status of
    French, it just isn't as important as a number of other languages in
    B.C.

    How about this for a compromise, we do EVERYTHING in french, and the
    rest of CANADA does everything in english,  who do YOU think is going
    to scream the loudest?
    
    Jean
    

    re: .-1
    
    The French.
    
    
    Scooter

     I'd like to add some fuel to this fire,
    
    Yesterday, in Hull, the Youth League of the Partis Quebecois held
    a contest. The  purpose of this contest was to travel all over Hull,
    identify business' and other groups that were using anglais on outside
    advertising and file a complaint form to the ministry that is
    responsible for enforcing francais only signs and advertising in
    Quebec. For each form filed the individual received points, and
    if the filings are found to be warranted and actioned upon, more
    points will be given. The media failed to detail what the prize
    would be for the person with the highest number of points.
    
    Shades of facism!
    
     In another light, one of the Ontario cities that is proposing to
    go anglais only has remarked that the choice is based more on economics
    than anything else. Queens Park (where the provincial government
    of Ontario sits) send out everything to each municipality in both
    official languages. The reasoning is that if you are english only,
    your town would only recieve the english material and thus half
    the paper involved in a;Chopping trees, b;Filing french documents
    never used and c;not having to hire the staff to manage the paper
    and other issues that arise due to the involvement of french.
    
    Regards, R. Tomkins

>         In another light, one of the Ontario cities that is proposing to
>    go anglais only has remarked that the choice is based more on economics
>    than anything else. Queens Park (where the provincial government

    Not true. Did you catch The Journal about 2 weeks ago. They had
    one of the alderman from the Soo, as well as the head of this group
    that led the drive to knock out french from the town. The alderman
    repeatedly said that while the city council was lead to believe
    the reasons were economical, they now realize that they were in
    fact "duped" because it was really a political (racial?) motivation
    by the anti-french group. Most of the city council members it seems
    were rather embarrassd by their own decision.

    >>    fact "duped" because it was really a political (racial?) motivation
   >> by the anti-french group. Most of the city council members it seems
    
    
    Well, well. Since when was "French" a race ?
    
	
    Scooter

    I listened to _Cross Country Checkup_ on CBC Radio yesterday and found
    some of the opinions illuminating.
    
    One caller said that the notion of Canada as a bilingual country was
    more a fiction of Federal politics than a reflection of reality. I
    would tend to agree: Quebec is Francophone; most of the rest of the
    country is Anglophone. A *very* few areas are genuinely bilingual.
    
    I have no problem with paying taxes to support multilingual services
    where there is a genuine need for them. The fact that French is an
    official language does not in itself constitute a need - there must be
    a reasonable fraction of the population who will use the services.
    
    I'll leave `a reasonable fraction' undefined for the moment.

        
>    Well, well. Since when was "French" a race ?

    I suggest you pose that question to those who hide agendas under the 
    garb of political/economical issues.

    Lets stand back and take an objective look at what is being done
    in both Ontario and Qu�bec on the language issue.
    
    
    In Ontario some communities are voting to be unilingual english.
    In Qu�bec all communities with a minority anglophone population
    are automatically francophone.  I understand that this means only
    that the municipality will not provide it's services in the other
    language.  Comparing the two situations, is there really a difference?
    
    
    In Qu�bec it is illegal to put an english (only english or all
    non-french - anybody know?) sign in the window of a business.  In
    Ontario you can put what almost anything you like in the store 
    window.  This is where the inequality comes in, and it's a situation
    which I believe to be peculiar to Qu�bec.  I know of no other country
    or location in the world where such a rule exists.  Does anyone?
                              
    
    My complaint is not with the wish of the Qu�becois to preserve their
    language and culture, but with the methods.  I would prefer to see
    positive steps taken for promotion, rather than the negative steps
    being taken to destroy anything that may impact that culture.  
    
    Bob
    

    >>  I suggest you pose that question to those who hide agendas under
    >> the garb of political/economical issues
    
    Now you are dodging. *You* implied that that a language issue is a
    racial issue, (unless that editorial parenthesis is part of the quote).
    so you should support your assertion. If you don't know if there is a
    racial question, why'd you imply it ? Please prove that language
    bigotry == racism, since you _seem_ to believe it. While you are
    at it, why don't you provide evidence that those who are proposing that
    their municipalities adopt English as their official language have an
    hidden agenda that is NOT polically or economically motivated, as your
    statement quated above implies.
    
    Scooter
    

 >   bigotry == racism, since you _seem_ to believe it. While you are
 >   at it, why don't you provide evidence that those who are proposing that
 >   their municipalities adopt English as their official language have an
 >   hidden agenda that is NOT polically or economically motivated, as your
 >   statement quated above implies.

    I am simply paraphrasing the words of the city alderman from SSM
    who was on the Journal (that's right, the Journal) and went further
    than to just imply, in fact outright claimed, that the anti-french
    people did not have simple economic reasons for eliminating french,
    that they had taken their road show to other townships to rile up
    anti-french sentiment: the results of which we are now seeing 
    in Thunder Bay etc. 
    
    As per your other concerns, in modern times as these, one does not
    outright say, "I hate, this or that", rather we have wonderful covers
    under which we can hide aka: "we are simply presenting a revisionist
    view of Nazi Germany", "we must preserve the Red Serge tradition
    of our Mounties", "its poor economics to spend millions of dollors
    on french services that are never used" ... catch the drift?

    The group responsible for the "Soo" thing has a few companies on its
    black list like: 
    	
    	Zellers because the head office is in Montr�al
    	The Royal bank because the head office is in Montr�al
    	Canadi>n airlines because the bags of peanuts they serve on 
    	flights have french before english! (printed in the US too boot)
    	
    	and other for equally silly reasons
    
    Now if WE were to start the same game here.....
    
    Jean
    
    
    

    re: .23 who is the group responsible for the "Soo thing" ?
    
    re: .22 you are falling into the "New Age Yuppie Trap". Everything
    	has hidden meaning, and is a euphimism for something distasteful.
    	People on the whole mean what they say, even if _this_particular_
    group_ has a hidden agenda, discerning that would be more dumb luck
    than savviness. 
    
    "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean nobody is following me ..."
    remember that saying ?  It _also_ does NOT mean somebody IS following
    you.
    
    Scooter
    PS - what's so special about the Journal - is it supposed to be the
    Paragon of TV journalism or something ?
    
    

    Scoot:
    
    - The National/Journal simply because they are the generally recognized
    as quite credible news show? 
    
    - re: the group responsible for the "Soo thing"
    Did you catch The National last night? Or the local TO news shows
    yesterday? Well, the group is something called APEC - Anglophones
    for the Protection of English speaking Canadians. Their spokesperson
    is Fleit (or something rather), and he held a news conference yesterday
    at the Legislative Ass. of Ont. APEC's basic line revolves around
    a Francophone paranoia -"the french-Canadians have conspiracy"...
    etc. line of thought - similiar to the "Elders of Zion" thought
    used quite effectively by the Nazi.
    
    Check out the T.V. tonight Scoot, I'm sure you'll see these guys. 
    Later.

    re: the National/Journal - no more credible than any other TV News
    program - scale 1 to 10 = ~7 (IMHO)
    
    re: group -
    
    Now I'm confused - Did APEC pass the law in the Soo ?
    
    Scooter

    
    
    	I hope English-speaking and Frech-speaking will join hands across
        the language divide, don't let Jacques Parizeau separate Quebec
    	from the rest of CANADA when Meech Lake accord die (June 23 is
    	the day..isn't it ? )
    
        Luu

>        Now I'm confused - Did APEC pass the law in the Soo ?

    APEC created the atmosphere of urgency/paranoia/pressure to which
    the city council responded, in text-book style, and declared the
    Soo to be unilingual  ... So, in a way, YES, APEC did pass the
    law.

    Hope this clears the confusion, Scooter. Its quite grey isin't it?

    More food for tought,
    
    The leader of "Alliance Qu�bec" said on both english and french radio
    (HE speaks french very well) that the english population of Qu�bec is
    treated a LOT better than the french speaking population in other
    provinces.
    
    Alberta did NOT have to use the "notwithstanding clause" to deal a
    final blow to the french culture in it's courts (nor did Manitoba).
    
    And WE have to defend our positions!
    And WE are the bad guys!
    
    come on, 
    
    Jean
    

    Still more food for thought - the Anglophone minority in Quebec is much
    larger than the Francophone minority in any other province except
    possibly for New Brunswick (anybody got numbers on this?).
    
    If B.C. had a 25% or so Francophone minority, I'd be pleased to pay for
    bilingual services. In fact, I'd insist on them.

    I agree that it's a travesty to call Canada bi-lingual and especially
    bi-cultural, unless borders are drawn and these seem to fall
    "naturally" on Qu�bec's borders and extend a bit from them (Nouveau
    Brunswick, Ontario)  
    
    I know that I didn't see too much french in BC unless I was at an
    airport or I was reading a box of cereal (or my bag of peanuts in the
    plane).
    
    Jean
    

    Malardville in B.C. is nearly all French.

    	I'm kind of suprised this hasn't been mentioned here, but...
    
    		I heard that a patition has been filed with the world
    	court, with 10,000 signatures from english speaking businessmen
    	in Quebec. The jist of the petition was in protest of the sign law.
    	The world court has given the Canadian government 30 days to
   	respond.
    
    		I heard this around the 17th FEB....so far I've seen
    	nothing more about it...
    
    	Brian V
    
    	P.S.	Local to where I am the small berg of EMBRO declared
    		itself english only.

While we're waiting for the Canadian government to respond...

...we could discuss whether the language spoken in Quebec really is French.

Some folks from Quebec whom I met on vacation in France complained to me that
the locals refused to speak French with them; always answering them in English!

/john

    
    
    
    >> we could discuss whether the language spoken in Quebec really is
    >> French.
    
    The French spoken in Quebec is probably more "real French" than what
    they speak in France as the language spoken in Quebec is close to the
    French that was spoken 100 years ago.
    
    >> Some folks from Quebec whom I met on vacation in France complained
    >> to me that the locals refused to speak French with them; always
    >> answering them in English!
    
    My wife (english mother tongue but speaks perfect French) has to
    translate for my mother (french mother tongue but speaks perfect
    English) when she is in Switzerland visiting us. Even though it is her
    mother tongue it is so different in accent and words then continental
    french that neither one understands the other. You can imagine how
    frusterating it is for my mother. 
       

�    The French spoken in Quebec is probably more "real French" than what
�    they speak in France as the language spoken in Quebec is close to the
�    French that was spoken 100 years ago.

 
    If the language of Qu�bec is the same today as it was a hundred
    years ago then surely it is stagnant.  And stagnant things 
    eventually die.  Like latin and sanskrit.  If it doesn't change
    it becomes archaic and modern ideas more difficult to express.
    And laws and edicts to protect a language only cause division 
    and dissent.
    
    Instead change and growth should be fostered.  The language will
    grow strong and not need to be protected.  For a language to be 
    truly vital and to flourish it must grow and develop like any 
    living thing.  

    To add more to this note.
    
    
    	Hawksbury, Ontario has declared itself a Bilingual city and will
    boycot and municipality it deals with that has declared itself
    unilingual.
    
    	Two other eastern Ontario municipalities which brought motions to
    declare themself unilingual, voted recently and the motion was
    rejected. These towns are primarily English speaking.
    
    DL
    
    	

�    Hawksbury, Ontario has declared itself a Bilingual city and
�    will boycot and municipality it deals with that has declared itself
�    unilingual.
    
    Will that boycott include both unilingual english and french
    municipalities?   
                                                        
    If so it could have a problem dealing with most of Qu�bec.

    Only Ontario cities or towns. 
    
    I haven't heard of any towns in Quebec declaring themselves unilingual
    and not supplying English service. Maybe someone in Quebec could
    clarify.
    
    Dl

>    I haven't heard of any towns in Quebec declaring themselves unilingual
>    and not supplying English service. Maybe someone in Quebec could
>    clarify.

Huh?  Are we talking about the same Quebec?  The Quebec where the STOP signs
say "ARR�T" (even in France they say "STOP")?  The Quebec where air traffic
controllers speak French (even in France they speak only English)?  The Quebec
where English speaking residents cannot send their children to the English
schools unless they, themselves, attended an English school _in_ Quebec?

Or are you playing semantic games, since it's the provincial legislature, not
individual towns, that passed the French language laws?

/john

    re .40
    
> say "ARR�T" (even in France they say "STOP")?  The Quebec where air traffic
> controllers speak French (even in France they speak only English)?  The Quebec
    
    John, are you sure this actually happened. I remember a friend who
    works for British Airways saying that it had been proposed, but I got
    the impression from him that the international air transport community
    did eventually get the message through to them that English is the
    language in which _all_ air traffic directions are given.
    If they really are not using English there would be a serious risk to
    the air-travelling public.
    
    Tony

    I remember when it happened. The fact that English is the language of
    air traffic control, even in France, came up many times.
    
    How long it lasted I don't know.
    
    ...laura

    re. Air Traffic Controllers

    	My brother is an IFR controller in Montreal Center and the
    controllers there can use French if they want when speaking to a French
    pilot out of courtesy. English is still THE official language for air
    traffic but in Montreal Center it seems that if a pilot is French and
    wants to speak in French, then the controller will speak French to be
    courteous.

    	They even get into Francophone discussions about the Grand Canal
    and how it's going to hurt air travel once it is completed! 

    Glenn

    A friend of mine was an air traffic controller at Ottawa International 
    Airport up until three years ago.  The ruling made at that time
    was that if a pilot flying from Quebec airspace wanted to speak French 
    - then the ATC *HAD* to respond in French.  At that time only a couple 
    of the ATCs were bi-lingual so Transport Canada ruled that all of the 
    ATCs in Ottawa (and presumably Quebec) had to become bilingual over a 
    period of time (I think it was 5 years).  The unilingual English 
    speaking ATCs had to attend *MANDATORY* French language training.

    My friend, and a number of his colleagues, who did not wish to learn
    a new language, transferred to other parts of the country where French 
    was not required. 

    Re - a few back,
    
    While travelling in France, I encountered the same thing "they would
    speak to me in english even if I spoke to them in french"  this
    happened a couple of time, and each time it was with a person who
    identified us as being Canadians, and in Canada, everyone speaks
    english eh! (well not quite) and they wanted to practice their english
    on us, it was not because of our accent.
    
    Some visitors, who try to speak french here get shunted to english
    quite fast, and I think this is an insult to them.  I think that
    someone that makes the effort to speak another language should not be
    stopped from doing so, on the contrary they should be encouraged, even
    if sometimes it becomes laborious.
    
    Jean
    

�    I think that
�    someone that makes the effort to speak another language should not be
�    stopped from doing so, on the contrary they should be encouraged, even
�    if sometimes it becomes laborious.

 
    I agree with that.
    

    re: practicing another language
    
    A couple of friends of mine and I used to travel to Quebec City every
    August for the long weekend (the one that Quebec doesn't take - it was
    a good time to go because there were a few less tourists than on a
    national holiday). We'd go just to enjoy the restaurants and people
    watching.
    
    One time, we were in Aux Anciens Canadiens and one of my friends was
    fracturing French trying to order his meal. He usually spoke the
    language well enough to be understood (government French lessons,
    don't you know), but this particular day none of us could make out what
    he was saying (probably too many Pina Coladas at poolside that
    afternoon). Eventually the waitress asked him if he spoke English.
    Turns out she was a student from Vermont, working in Quebec for the
    summer to improve her French. Some help Don was!
    
    Another time, at Cafe de la Paix, we had a friend from Ste. Foy join us
    for dinner. After the rest of us ordered, the waiter complimented this
    friend on his French. 
    
    Having been to the Cafe de la Paix about four or five times, I did find
    that the service was slightly better the times we made the effort to
    order in French. I have also found people more receptive to Anglophones
    attempting to speak French in Quebec City than in Montreal.
    
    Ah Quebec City, it's a fun tourist town.
    
    Tom

     Note 264.47 by ::SMELLIE
    
    A great note ! It seems to be one of the best from 1 - 47
    
    
    .47> Turns out she was a student from Vermont <E.U.> working in Quebec
    .47>   for the summer to improve her French ..>>
    
         There !
    
           Here is someone who is not from "mainland Canada" taking the
           learning of another language seriously.
           And you have some "damn, fat, old anglo-clerk" at Eatons who've
           lived in Montreal, Quebec, Canada for over FIFTY years and does
           not  or will not even make an attempt to learn a single phrase
           in French ! What is it ? Grey or Gray matter ?
           
            And there are those bigotted school board members from that
            B.C. school district who recently voted to suspend bilingual
            immersion classes for (was it ?) 3 - 4 grades ?
       
             C'est dommage ? That even the atheistic communist bastards of 
             Eastern Europe and the devious racist pro-apart-hate mongers of
             Pretoria R.S.A are beginning to break down walls of separation.
             And the bigots in Canada are using the discarded bricks of hate 
             to construct a new wall of shame ?  If things continue at the
             current rate, pretty soon there will be (relatively speaking)
             more freedom in E/Berlin & Pretoria than in Boronto & Bontreal ! 
    

    Ahhh, I get it now.
    
    Now that the traditional enemies of whatever-isms are falling left
    right and center, it is necessary to turn misunderstanding of local
    imperatives, historical relationships and decisions, into the
    foundation of a new 'schism'.
    
    Go read a book.
    
    Scooter

From CROC (humor magazine puplished in Qu�bec)

Sault-st-Marie has changed it's name to:

      		SOT-st-Marie

From the Fran�ais-Anglais / Anglais-Fran�ais  Larousse

Sot, adj. Stupid, silly, foolish (v. imb�cile); 
rester sot, to be taken aback. - s. Simpleton, dolt, fool, ass.

I also heard that SOT-st-Marie lost a couple of conventions because
of all the bad publicity they got, how's that for money saving eh!


Jean

    To compare Toronto and Montreal in the same breath as Pretoria ranks
    as the ultimate extrapolation.  Agree with .49 ... go read a book.
    
    Martin

Below is an article that appeared in the Ottawa Citizen of Saturday, 
February 24.  Reproduced without permission.

ENGLISH, THE GREAT UNIFIER

By Peter Benesh (a Canadian Journalist living in London) for Southam 
News.

  The breakneck pace of change in Europe masks another more subtle 
movement that will erode differences between people whether they like 
it or not.
  That is the rise of English as the common and unifying language of 
Europe and the world.
  Said David Hicks, director-general of the English Speaking Union, a 
London-based organization that promotes ties among English-speaking 
nations: "It's incredible.  We think there are now one thousand 
million people using English with reasonable fluency.  It's becoming 
the 'lingua franca' - the common language of the world."
  It used to be that Britain's bureaucratic emissaries to the European 
Community were chosen for their ability to speak French.  Not any 
longer - which galls some Gauls.  After all, France was the chief 
architect of the EC.
  Britain has always been tentative about its enthusiasm for European 
unification - more so now than ever with the EC's push for one big 
market.
  Yet, English, spoken as a first language by just one-sixth of the 
EC's 320 million people, is becoming dominant at EC headquarters in 
Brussels.
  In Paris, a German-born official of the influential Organization for 
Economic Co-operation and Development described French as the language 
of diplomacy, German as the language of technology, but English as the 
language of everything.
  France's government has tried to resist the onslaught, but French is 
contaminated by English words such as le weekend and le hamburger.  
Purists call it the "malaise francais," the French disease.
  However, one government policy even encourages the rise of English.  
It requires companies with 10 or more employees to put an amount equal 
to 1.2 per cent of wage costs into continuing education for workers.  
Many companies are investing in English-language training, trying to 
develop fluently bilingual work forces.
  French business executives now talk about "le challenge, le stress, 
le staff and le cash."
  As companies become more international, and as communications become 
more instantaneous, competence in English becomes an essential sales 
tool.  Even the "hold" messages of the switchboards of many major 
French firms are in English as well as French.
  The giant Casino supermarket chain, a fixture in virtually every 
French citizen's life, has succumbed.  "I won't hire a manager who 
doesn't speak English," said Casino chairman Antoine Guichard.
  According to the British Council, another organization fostering the 
use of English internationally, the EC nation where demand for English 
education is growing fastest is Spain, where for decades the second 
language has been French.
  The growth of English-language tourism in Spain has much to do with 
it, as does the demand for new technologies whose common language is 
English.
  Nowhere is the English revolution more powerful, however than in 
Eastern Europe, which is shaking off four decades of Soviet 
domination.
  In Poland, where students are no longer ordered to learn Russian, 
the demand for English education is so great the government cannot 
provide enough teachers.  It would need 67 years to train the 20,000 
English-language teachers required before the year 2000.
  In the past 18 months, 60 private English-language schools have 
opened in Poland.  Only one of four Poles trying to learn "business" 
English can find instruction.
  Last August, when Hungary ditched Russian as a compulsory second 
language, four of five students asked for English classes.  The 
Education Ministry now has a scheme to convert 3,000 surplus Russian- 
language teachers to English instructors.
  Czechoslovakia plans to begin teaching English to children from the 
age of eight.  Even the Soviet Union is preparing new English texts 
for secondary schools.
  Catherine Hickley, a Briton teaching English at East Germany's 
University of Halle, said her students are anxiously awaiting new 
English-language books to replace the old Modern English, with its 
"turgid texts about obscure British Communists."  She said that next 
year, when students can choose among French, Russian, and English as 
second languages, "most will choose English."
  Sir Richard Francis, director-general of the British Council, is 
even more blunt: "If there is one safe prediction for the 1990s, it is 
that the English will become universally recognized as the most 
important key to economic development and personal betterment."
  The tidal wave is overwhelming:  According to the respected London 
magazine the Economist, 75 per cent of the world's telecommunications 
is in English, it is the language of 80 per cent of all computer- 
stored information, 45 per cent of all scientific publications are in 
English... and those figures are growing.
  The European Free Trade Association, a junior EC for the 30 million 
citizens of Sweden, Switzerland, Austria, Finland, Norway and Iceland, 
has chosen English as its official language, although not one of the 
member countries is English-speaking.
  It may even be that the Europeans learning English as a second 
language will surpass Britons in their English-language competence.
  Research shows that the spelling and grammar skills of British 
students are declining.

    Statements such as those in .-1 are not politically correct in Canada.
    
    Scooter

>le hamburger

In Canada this is now "le hamburgeois" (as the pasted over signs I saw along
the Grand Canal indicated).

Has this changed in France?

/john

TRCU11::FINNEY "Keep cool, but do not freeze"
264.53
>    Statements such as those in .-1 are not politically correct in Canada.
>   
>   Scooter

     The article is not about Canada.  Which statements?  Can you be more 
     specific?  
     
    -Gerry

    I don't care what's political. I want results.

    RE: Note 264.49 by Scooter
    
    >> ..It is necessary to turn misunderstanding of local imperatives,
    >> historical relationships and decisions into the foundation of a 
    >> new 'schism' >> (?)
    
    >> Go read a book.
    
    Good advice, so I did ---> ( ISBN 0-03-015601-7 INVITATION -page 273,
    Bonin,Jarvis,Birckbichler:  Holt, Rinehart & Winston Publishing Co.)
    
      
        QUE..
             "Je me souviens" est la divise officielle de la province de Quebec 
et meme aujourd'hui beaucoup de Quebecois n'ont pas oublie' que leur province a
tres` longtemps ete sous la domination britannique. "Quebec libre?" est le cri 
de ralliement du movement Franco-Canadienne.   
Pour les Quebecois il est important de preserver et de proteger la culture et
L'HERITAGE  Quebec/francais. Il y a aussi le probleme de la mobilite' sociale
et de l'acces des francophones aux travaux bien payes qui ont longtemps ete 
reserves aux anglophones. Dans un livre intitule' "Les negres blanc d'Amerique"
Pierre Vallieres a compare' la situation des Quebecois a` celle des 
noirs americains. 
D'autres pensent que revendique conduira a` un isolement culturel et economique 
qui etre pas pleasant dans un mode de plus en plus interdependant. Ils pensent
que les lois qui ont 'etabli le francais comme la seule langue officielle de la
province sont responsables du depart de certaines enterprises commerciales et d'
un certain nombre d'anglophones. C'est vrais que la solution ne sera pas facile!
Mais "Je me souviens" - toujours  dit le Quebecois !

    
Go watch some more Greek movies ! 

RE: Note 51 by TROA02::MISCHNEIDER

>> To compare Toronto (& MonTcouver ?) in the same breath as Pretoria
>>   ranks as the ultimate extrapolation..Agree with .49  go read a book.

Yes Sir ! --> ISBN: 0-87901-134-3  Unit 3 page 286 by Dr.Ian Robertson
an Anglo-South_African immigrant currently residing in Cambridge, Mass.)

[ Like many modern societies, Canada includes racial and ethnic minorities
  most notably the French-Canadian and the indigenous Indian populations.
  French Canadians who form a majority in the province of Quebec, have long 
  endured prejudice and discrimination from the dominant anglophones. 
  In recent years the national govt has given legal protection to the French
  Canadians. Yet the status of French-Canadians and other minorities such as
  the Inuit remains a source of controversy and even tension. ] 
              True or Non-False ?
              -----------------
From Book II -> ISBN: 0-442-23460-0: Minorities in...the Modern World.
Gladys Meyer, Rutgers Univ, & Charles Marden Columbia, Univ.) page 26.
CANADA:
[ Of greatest current interest, however to *the student of inter-people
  relations (Me!) has been the development in Canada of what can be considered
  as "derived minority situation" specially the relation of the Frncophones
  to the dominant Anglophones...  It is clear that there is a strong feeling
  of being superordinate on the part of the anglophones. Whether this 
  bi-ethnic division is a true dominant-minority situation but certainly
  not in the whole nation, it has been and still continues to be a type of
  interpeople division. This is a distinct national problem periodically 
  creating crises. (Hopefully ?) --> Time, with its inevitable acculturation
  between the two ethnic groups, may resolve the problem without the necessity
  of the Francophones giving up the sub-communal entity in order to achieve
  coordinate status..]  (c) 1973 edition.
   
  So whatcmccall'em - Herr Mschneider ? Maybe the comparison should have
  been with Rhodesia instead of Pretoria. Right ? "Mon oncle Cecil Halliday
  remembers Rhodesia too !"  
                              REPRISE !
PARCE QUE....     
             "Je me souviens" est la divise officielle de la province de Quebec 
et meme aujourd'hui beaucoup de Quebecois n'ont pas oublie' que leur province a
tres` longtemps ete sous la domination britannique. "Quebec libre?" est le cri 
de ralliement du movement Franco-Canadienne.   
Pour les Quebecois il est important de preserver et de proteger la culture et
L'HERITAGE  Quebec/francais. Il y a aussi le probleme de la mobilite' sociale
et de l'acces des francophones aux travaux bien payes qui ont longtemps ete 
reserves aux anglophones. Dans un livre intitule' "Les negres blanc d'Amerique"
Pierre Vallieres a compare' la situation des Quebecois a` celle des 
noirs americains. 
D'autres pensent que revendique conduira a` un isolement culturel et economique 
qui etre pas pleasant dans un mode de plus en plus interdependant. Ils pensent
que les lois qui ont 'etabli le francais comme la seule langue officielle de la
province sont responsables du depart de certaines enterprises commerciales et d'
un certain nombre d'anglophones. C'est vrais que la solution ne sera pas facile!
Mais "Je me souviens" - toujours  dit le Quebecois !


Go watch some more Dutch cartoon flicks ! Or translate the above into Inuit
for fellow Canadians !              
___ari              

RE: Note 264.7 by VAOU02::HALLIDAY 

>> ..All other languages are dying out << Action >>

Of course Laura, if the racists/bigots keep doing what they are doing
in B.C. time will surely reverse to BC 4000 !  Like in the following article:

Montreal Gazette:

[ Consider next the ACTIONS (re. 264.56) of the Sechelt District School 
  Board north of Vancouver B.C. The board has decided to end French Immersion
  for children in Grades 1 to 3, and the local Chapter of Alliance for the...
  of Engklish is claiming credit for the decision (Victory ?)
  
 The board's chairman says that none of the members opposes bilingualism ,
 BUT they simply feel this is a better use of resources. ... Too many
 anti-bilingualism campaigners get away with BLAND declarations that they
 aren't anti-French, they're just against having it "imoposed" on them.
 The TRUTH is that not only are these anti-French gangs against having
 French "forced down their throat'  they REALLy DON'T want people to have
 free choice to absorb some for themselves - or have their children do so.
 Deep down they feel that people have no right to acquire this "foreign"
 language.  WE thank the Sun=shine Coast's chapter for revealing this so
 openly ]  Article by Norman Webster, Mont. Gazette Feb. 24 1990 page b-3)

 We've heard this before haven't we ? Like the Nazi Germans saying:
    I'am not anti-semite BUT.." Or pro-apartheid and Alabama bigots saying
  "We are not racists BUT.."  Or Ted Bundy saying,"I'am not a sexist-misogynist
     BUt.."  Bull-scatos ! Whom ya trying ta kid ?  

      THere !   No pussyfooting  !
             

    I would like to share my experience visiting Montreal a few years
    ago. 
    
    I am a Chinese and I don't speak French. I was driving downtown
    Montreal looking for Holiday Inn. I was lost and couldn't read the
    map and road signs. (I must admit that whenever my mind reads
    'incorrectly' spelled word, it will try to do a spelling correction.
    If it failed, it simply rejects the word all together.)
    
    So I stopped at a gas station and asked the cashier in English: 
    "Can you tell me where is Holiday Inn?" The guy simply shake his head
    and said nothing.
    
    I thought this guy must not speak English. So I tried next gas station.
    The same thing happened. I couldn't get any voice output. Then I
    thought: Montreal is a big city and I couldn't believe that they
    couldn't speak English. 
    
    So I went to another gas station and asked in Chinese (actually
    Cantonese): "Ne gi mg gi tou ga yat chou tim hai bin tou?" The guy
    seemed amazed and said, in English: "what do you want?" Then we
    happily communicate with each other in English and I am happy to
    find my hotel.
    
    Lapyiu Ho.
    
    
    
    
    

re the notes from Vermont:

Are you really stuck with a VT100?  Or are you just not willing to use your
compose key to make your French text more readable?

/john

    re .60
    
    I didn't know Chinese is such a powerful catalyst. May be I should try
    it sometimes. 
    
    This HO is from KAO, don't mix up.

    re: the french text concerning the preservation of French Heritage.
    
    The concept of preserving heritage is a social one. Official
    bilingulaism is a political issue at the federal/provincial/municipal
    level.
    
    By adopting heritage as a political issue, as happened in the 60's and
    70's, Quebec's leaders began adopting a stance equivalent to the
    official apartheid laws of RSA, but with different results. 
    
    Legislating the specific nature of treatment of a specific cultural 
    heritage and its standing with respect to the myriad of other cultures
    in Canada inside and outside Quebec is the spiritual brother of
    legislating treatment of specific races. 
    
    re: using Chinese to elicit a response in Quebec. This behaviour
    predates the current string of cultural infighting. When I was a
    kid, my German was a lot better than my French. We lived in Quebec
    City in the early Sixties for almost a year -  I spoke German exclusively
    to adults in order to get responses I could understand - in English.
    
    re: politically correct ambiguity.
    
    The article refered to spoke of English becoming the de facto standard
    language of communication in the Western World, especially due to the
    changes in Eastern Europe.
    
    Refering to English as, or becoming, the standard language of
    communication in Canada is not politically correct. This might be
    because Quebec rejects the notion. 
    
    Quebec's political membership in Confederation is becoming more and
    more tenuous. Personally, I have no desire to see Quebec leave
    Confederation, nor do I desire it to stay. That is for Quebeckers to
    decide. Unfortunately, Quebec's leadership could probably cause
    separation by their political fights to ensure that Quebec is
    different from the rest of Canada.
    
    The whole story is so complex, and many of us have had to live through
    the intrigues and posturing of both sides of the multiple issues that
    we are just tired of it. After 30 years, I'm emotionally worn out on
    the whole thing. I care what happens, I just don't care which decision
    gets made - nothing will solve the "Quebec Issue".
    
    What DOES bother me is how this age old problem has become a cause
    celebre OUTSIDE of Canada amongst the Seal Hunt Banners and
    Others-In-Search-Of-A-Cause.
    
    re: equating with Nazi Germany.
    
    >Sigh< I can't believe that anyone could be so weak minded as to
    believe such drivel. Try this on for size:  in order to make your
    analogy accurate Nazi Germany would have to have had an Official stance
    that "Every German Must Love Jews" or "Yiddish is an Official German
    Language" and all the bureacratic baggage to go along with it.
    
    Also, you must have French-Canadians being deported out of the country,
    gathered in camps, being burned in ovens, and otherwise mass-murdered
    (hey YOU brought up Nazi Germany, not me), and Canada must be striving
    for world domination by force of arms at the same time WITH THE REST OF
    ENGLISH CANADA PARTICIPATING WILLFULLY.
    
    re: treatment of Native Peoples. Shabby, shabby, shabby.
    
    Yet,at the same time, better THAN ANY OTHER SIMILARILY FOUNDED 
    COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.
    
    
    Scooter
    
    

RE:
>> Are you really stuck with a VT100?  Or are you just not willing to use your
>> compose key to make your French text more readable?

    For those who need a "translation" of what this guy is saying...
    
    Yes, my antiquated VTXXX does not compose the following - which were 
    omitted in the French text.
    
    o The accent aigu ( ' ) should appear over certain vowels like - detester.
    
    o The accent grave (`) should appear over some vowels like u -> ou (where). 

    o The accent circonflex (^) should appear over some vowels like over
      the first e --> in honnetes ..
    
    o The cedile (,) not quite) should appear under the C in Francais..
    
    o The trema (")<- not quite) should appear e.g. over  the letter i in Naif. 
    
     Etc....   There !
    
    Hey John, if you don't mind being asked. Are you switching from Anti-French 
    to Anti-Vermont ?  I mean, are you the same guy who made that
    condescending statement in here that "Quebecers don't speak the proper 
    French etc.. that even in France they have STOP ..instead ARRET ?
    I wanted to ask you, since you've mentioned it. What kind of English is
    spoken in Canada ?  I'll remember too !  Are you getting hostile too ? :-|

    RE: 264.63 by Scooter
    
    Everyboby knows that the industrial genocide in Europe during
    Adlof Hitler's European Tour - 1933 - 45  against Poles, Jews, Gypsies..
    etc.. is within a class by itself.  Hopefully it can never be surpassed.
    Remember though, that it did not happen overnight. 
    It began with ANTILOCUTION embedded with hate appeals towards certain
    non-dominants in the reich.  If the dominant anglophones continue to
    spread hate like they are currently doing in Saulte Ste Marie (sp ?) 
    pretty soon some of the anglos might even advocate the "elimination"
    of all those who are not "anglophone aryan/wasps."
    
    Is it not a fact that  an anglophone businessman is making money
    by selling  "cute buttons" that show in a degrading manner
    "Orientals in straw hats, barefeet West-Indians, East-Indian in a turban.."
     being stared at by a small caucasian male.." Under the caption..xxx ?
    
     Re camps: That  also happened to 23,000 innocent Japenese-Canadians ! 
    
     It always begins with Antilocution and xenophobia . Those who are
     strongly anti-French will easily be intolerant of les autres. Like,
     Who's next on the agenda ?  Aliens from Zurich, Kinsgton, Kyoto, Macao? 

    re: BTOVT::BOATENG_K
    
    Maybe this will help clear up the obvious chasm between your postings
    and mine ...
    
    >>>If the dominant anglophones continue to
    >>>    spread hate like they are currently doing in Saulte Ste Marie (sp
   >>> ?)
    
This sentance presumes:
    
    A) Hate is being spread
    B) the people doing it are the dominant anglophiles.
	(implies all, not 'some', 'many' or even 'most'.)
    C) that A & B are happening in Sault Ste. Marie.
    
    Hate is not being spread by the dominant anglophone population in
    SSM.  If HATE is being spread, it is not the dominant anglophone
    population doing it. Passing a unilingual bylaw is not hate-mongering.
    It may be many bad things, but not hate mongering.
    
    >> pretty soon some of the anglos might even advocate the
    "elimination"
    >>   of all those who are not "anglophone aryan/wasps."
    
    Depends on a false premise.
    
    Statements as that are what is known as "fear-mongering".
    
    >> Is it not a fact that  an anglophone businessman is making money
        by selling  "cute buttons" that show in a degrading manner
        "Orientals in straw hats, barefeet West-Indians, East-Indian in a
    turban.."
         being stared at by a small caucasian male.." Under the
    caption..xxx ?
    <<
    
    It is a fact that the buttons are indeed being made. It is NOT a fact
    that they show in a degrading manner anything. The purpose of the
    buttons was to reflect the cultural mosaic. Exaggeration of readily
    identifable features of peoples were necessary on a button measuring
    less than an inch in dia. to reflect the message of the button.
    
    Besides - Using that as an example of hate mongering in Canada is the
    same as using Ernst Zundel as an example that Canada is anti-semetic.
    
    re: camps.
    
    >sigh< You give yourself away so easily ! The differences between the
    camps of WWII in Canada, US AND OTHER COUNTRIES,  and the camps of Nazi
    Germany hardly need to be described, do they. We've been through that
    already in this very topic X replies back. Want to do it again, really?
    
    >>>   It always begins with Antilocution and xenophobia . Those who are
         strongly anti-French will easily be intolerant of les autres.
    Like,
         Who's next on the agenda ?  Aliens from Zurich, Kinsgton, Kyoto,
    Macao? 
    <<<
    
    Don't you *EVER* think for yourself ? Your declarative statement
    must hold up under the burden of proof.
    
    A) What is "it" that always begins with (etc.)
    B) Prove that statement.
    C) Prove that the country is rife with antilocution and xenophobia.
     (Individual, isolated cases don't count - otherwise you will have
    proven that West Germany is Fascist still, Northern Ireland is really
    rampant with peace and harmony between Catholics and Protestants, etc)
    D) Prove that the strongly anti-French (what does this mean, anywway ?
    Anti-French Culture ? People ? Language ?) will easily be intolerant
    of les autres.
    E) That there is an agenda (what agenda?)
    
                                                          
    What is YOUR agenda ?
    
    Scooter 

>    Yes, my antiquated VTXXX does not compose the following - which were 
>    omitted in the French text.

Why do you say VTXXX instead of telling us the real model number?    
    
>   Hey John, if you don't mind being asked. Are you switching from Anti-French 
>   to Anti-Vermont ?

I don't think you can justify calling me Anti-French or Anti-Vermont.

/john

When my parents first moved to Ottawa, we used to go to Montreal
to savour the Chinese food there since Toronto was further. One
time, we had a mandrin speaking waiter so he started in French
and we answered in Cantonese. He shrugged so we went back to
speaking to the waiter in French.

Cal Hoe (This HOE is in Colorado Springs.)

RE:Note .66 by Scooter.  The following is also an explanation and example of
ANTILOCUTION:  A headline from The Montreal Gazette issue of March 4th 1989.

     "ENGLISH-LANGUAGE NEWSPAPERS SHOW ANTI-FRENCH BIAS:" 
 
 Some might ask, "what does that got to do with Antilocution & the French?"

          A non-dictionary definition of ANTILOCUTION follows:                                                    
             ---------------------------------------------
 What people actually do in relation to groups they hate is not always directly 
 related to what they say about such hated groups(publicly). Sometimes the hater
 forgets himself and let it slip unconsciously -> The Freudian Slip .
 It is true that any negative attitude tends to somehow, somewhere, to express
 itself in action. Few people keep their antipathies entirely to themselves.
 The more INTENSE the ATTITUDE, the more likely it is to result in frequent
 degrading bashing of the hated group.  ( This should explain why some people
 are more prone to bash the French and other minorities than others.) 

 ANTILOCUTION:
               Most people who have prejudices talk about their biases with
like-minded bigotted friends. Occasionally they may express their antagonism
freely with strangers. But many people never go beyond this degree of 
antipathetic action. 

AVERSION:
          If the prejudice is MORE INTENSE, it leads the individual to avoid 
          the hated group.  This means that if the hated group is being 
          sadistically ridiculed, bashed, degraded, dumped on,...the aversive
          bigot will be oblivious to the pain of the hated group.

An example: It was reported in the Feb.24th 1990 issue of the Gazette
                   that a Francophone employee in Sault Ste Marie who previously
                   ate lunch with fellow workers who happen to be anglohones
                   was all of a sudden being shuned by those he thought were his
                   friends.  Why ?  It's got to be the antilocution factor.
                   Don't you think so ? BTW: It happened after the unilingual 
                   vote.

DISCRIMINATION:
                Here the prejudiced person makes detrimental distinctions of
                an active sort. He undertakes to exclude *most members of the
                hated group in question from certain types of social privileges.
               
ATTACK:
           Under conditions of heightened emotions his prejudices will lead to
           acts of verbal violence or hostility in the form of intimidation by
           using hate appeals to degrade the minorities and to gain the support
           of like minded members of the dominant group.  

            Example: From the Nov. 11th 1989 issue of Mont/Gazette.
            ORILLA, ONT. (CP)
            Opponents of bilingualism disrupted a debate on bilingualism
            at a local high school. A quote from  the "book" of
            Alliance for the Preservation (of whatever) entitled:
            "Bilingualism Today, French Tomorrow" written by a bigot named
             J.V. Andrews was described by a Francophone who was familiar
             with the contents as, "This is the vilest racist, trash you ever
             want to read.."  Why ? Becuase parts of the book make derogatory
             remarks  about Francophones -> quoted: "Quebec families are...xxx ..
             .xxx..it merely helped to speed up.xxx...delivery to ...taverns"  
              This is the kind of books that supporters of Alliance for Engilsh
              groups read and champion as their cause. ( Speaking of causes )
             
[ The following is from page 15 of ISBN 0-201-00179-9: Gordon W. Allport ]

While many people would never move from antilocution to hostile persecution
of the hated group....still IT IS TRUE that activity on one level makes 
transition to a more intense level easier. 
It was Hitler's  antilocution  that led <MOST> Germans to avoid their
Jewish neighbors and erstwhile friends. This preparation made it easier 
to enact the Nurnberg laws of discrimination which in turn made the subsequent
<physical attacks> seem natural.]
                                    
     For example in "Mein Kampf" Hitler wrote:
    "For hours the dark haired Jew boy..waits in ambush for the unsuspecting
     <German aryan> girl whom he defiles with his blood... I detest the
     conglomeration of races...Jews and more Jews.."   Page 389 of Allport's
    
    Most racists bigots use similar hate appeals  when bashing their
    victims.  A.V. Andrews  ( author of Bi-T,F.T.  ) is one such example.  
    And I thought Dr. Josef Goebbels the Nazi regime's master BASHER died in
    1945. Here are his spiritual cousins who've reincarnated in the persons
    of whatcmacall'em that Keagstra(sp?) guy and his teaching of sanitized and
    revisionist history. BTW: He is still in jail ? Anybody knows ?     

 Some example of The Francophone Experience in Anglophone Canada:

From, June 28th 1989 issue of the M/Gazette an article culled from the
Southam News by Mike Trickey )

...the day to day discrimination <faced by Francophones> is..seen in a post
   office (as an example) Where the English speakin clerk in Pickering, Ont.
   hopes to improve the Francophone customer's English by shouting ever louder
   at him. Or it's at the downtown Toronto bank where the English speaking  
   teller informs a Francophone customer who has written her cheque in French
    that, "You Are Now In Canada" - translated to mean <parlez blanc?>
   What is this ? A bigotted sarcastic speech ? Or a sadistic sense of humor ? 
    
    You tell me ! Comment vivre dans un monde lilingue quand les voisins 
                  Chantent "Parlez blanc" ?
                  Comment chanter sa vie 
                  Lorque le rock & roll est interdit ?
                  Ca vaut-tu la peine,
                  Le rock and roll des juenes,
                  Ca vaut-tu la piene,
                  Rock and roule.
 
 And to answer another question: In June of 1940 some 700 Canadian men of
                               Italian background were rounded up under the
                               War Measures Act and transported to Camp Petawawa
         And I read            just north of Ottawa. Handed prison uniforms with
         a book..-->           bull-eye targets on the back, they were detained
                               as *UNDESIRABLE ALIENS.( That's what I meant by
                               "who's next syndrome"alluded to in previous note)
                               Most of them were Canadian citizins,some were
                               born in Canada. In addition to the incarceration
                               many also lost their property when it was confist
                               -icated and sold below market prices. 
                               In the history of this country this event is
                               overshadowed.. Ref. Canadese by Kenneth Bagnell &
                               ARRANGIASI - By Robert Perin & Franc Sturino. 

The continuation of the article mentioned in the Headlines:
TORONTO (CP)  Canada's English-language newspapers were accused yesterday 
             ( March 3rd 1989) of anti-French bias..in reporting on language
              issues. Even newspaper polls, questioning people by phone or on
              the street tend to be slanted in the way they present their 
              questions. ]  From Gazette March, 4th 1989.
What about this notesfile ? Let's be frank with ourselves for Kristsake !
The IT --> refers to Spite and Bashing !  Scooter, is your question answered ?
    Is the majority reticent (on this notefile) when it comes to "uncomfortable
    French issues" ?  Is Reticence Aquiescence? 

    Re: 264.67 
    
    >> What is VTXXX ? >> and...     >> why don't you tell us >>
                                                  ****
     Do you also speak on behalf of everboby ?
     I thought you already knew what the Roman/Latin numeral
     X stands for ? 
                  BTW: What is it to you ? What difference does it make? 
                       If I tell YOU what the model is - can you send me
                       a replacement ?  :-|    No mas !

So you've got a VT30?

Und welche freien Proben sollen wir eigentlich vermeiden?  Und kann ein VTXXX
Substantive nicht gro�schreiben, oder?

/john

    re: BVTOVT::BOATENG_K
    
    Back pedalling already ? Now antilocution only makes it easier to end
    up fascist, not definite.
    
    You read a book. Did that book tell you WHY the Italians were
    incarcerated ? Did the book tell you about the prevailing mood in
    Allied countries against Italy, Japan & Germany ? or the prevailing
    methods of society of the time ?
    
    Times change. Nothing is black & white. 
    
    ...and the hate *seems* to be in your mind only. I'd hold short of
    acussing YOU of hate-mongering.
    
    But the possibility did occur to me.
    
    Remember - prejudice, bias & bigotry DO NOT equate with hate, no matter
    how distateful they may be. 
    
    VT30 - good one!
    
    Scooter

    re. everyone

    	What many people seem to be ignoring here is that the language
    issue in Canada is very close to being a non-issue with the completion
    of the Grand Canal. The Grand Canal will be the catalyst that will
    bridge the gap between English and French Canada. French and English
    will no longer be locked in a bitter confrontation with the advent of
    the mighty Grand Canal. Remember, water is the true international
    language. Without water we all die! I think we all can relate to this.

    All Hail The Grand Canal!

    Glenn

Oh, pass water!

    Also note that "grand canal" is spelled correctly in both languages.
    
    And please cool down the racist comments, unless you have lived trough
    the situation yourself, you can't begin to comprehend what it's like.
    Books can't begin to make you FEEL ridiculed because you don't have the
    right color skin OR the "right" language in YOUR home town!
    
    As for getting people to speak english, you must realise that a LARGE
    portion of the population does NOT speak english (my wife for example
    can't carry a conversation and would be hard pressed to give you
    directions in english).
    
    When I travel, I try to learn and speak the language of the country I
    am visiting, even if it's only "yes and no and thank you..."  and I am
    always pleasantly surprised to find people that speak french, like a
    gas station attendant in Manchester NH, a sporting goods store owner in
    Worcester Ma, a pair of road workers in Louisiana... and I don't insult
    them by switching back to english.
    
    Jean (have to work now)
    

___ari

I am hard pressed to see Quebecois compared to the White-Negros
of America. I am also hard pressed to equate the detention of
Japanese-Canadians to the treatment of Quebecois. Matter of fact,
I see the comparsion as grasping straws tossed in the air.

Perhaps, Quebecois could learn by the changes and acceptance of
Chinese-Canadians into Canadian society. (We're a long ways from
total acceptance but we're getting there.)

Language is only one of the issues; many social issues must
change before the French/English issues are resolved. Catching
merchants who uses English only heats up the bigotry in border
Quebec cities. (I am speaking of a recent incident in Hull,
Quebec.)

cal hoe

     
 >>   Remember - prejudice, bias & bigotry DO NOT equate with hate, no matter
 >>   how distateful they may be. 
    
            Scooter
    
    
    I  don't understand this statement. Can you explain  ?

    
    RE:76
    
>> Perhaps, Quebecois could learn by the changes and acceptance of
>> Chinese-Canadians into Canadian society. (We're a long ways from
>> total acceptance but we're getting there.)
                                             cal hoe
    
    The following is  the Feb. 11th 1989 issue of M/Gazette.
    
    "In general, <our> people find French-Canadians very polite...
     South Asians find Montreal a more comfortable place than Toronto - 
     they find more racism in Toronto than here <in Montreal> 
    
          page A-4  paragraph 24 - an article about immigrants.
    
      Says: SADEQA SIDDIQUI, Co-ordinator of the local South Asia 
            Community Centre in Montreal 
    
    Cal are you aware of the number% of immigrants from Hong-Kong who got
    their visas with the agreement of settling in Quebec (province) then
    settle somewhere else once the visas are granted ?  
    The Quebec govt has an office in downtown Hong-Kong that actively
    recruits potential immigrants. Most of the applicants flock to the
    Quebec immigration office, becuase "the hint" is that they are more
    likely to be granted the visas to Canada than the other offices.
    
    Another article on Feb. 10th 1990 had this headline:
    "Ontario More Rednecked: <says> Calgary Mayor." ( Al Duerr )
    
    Cal (for example) why don't you call Sadeqa Siddiqui the co-ordinator
    of the South Asia Community Centre in Montreal and ask him about what
    he meant in that statement. ( Speaking of proper comparisons -> Ont. & Que. 
    
    ----ari

>>>>Cal are you aware of the number% of immigrants from Hong-Kong who got
    their visas with the agreement of settling in Quebec (province) then
    settle somewhere else once the visas are granted ?  

ari

Given the potential of treatment of Chinese by the Communist
Chinese government, ANY province that offers domicile will
attract visa applicants. I am well aware of the influx of Chinese
from Hong kong and the imparity it is creating for the local
economy.

>>>The Quebec govt has an office in downtown Hong-Kong that actively
    recruits potential immigrants.

You mean the the Province de Quebec has an office don't you? I
believe that the Government of Canada in Ottawa has full
jurisdiction over the immigration of immigrants. At least that
was the way when I immigrated to Canada in 1952.

>>>Most of the applicants flock to the
    Quebec immigration office, becuase "the hint" is that they are more
    likely to be granted the visas to Canada than the other offices.

Are the new immigrants from HongKong told UPFRONT that all their
business is done in French? Are they told that the provincial
taxes are higher based on a lower economy? My visits to a Chinese
grocery store in downtown Montreal to purchase some small ceramic
spoons for my young son. I asked the clerk in Cantonese for the
spoons and he said that he was glad that a country man speaks his
dialect. He said that he is embarass about his French.

We Cantonese speaking Chinese are quite adaptable. We learn the
language where ever we settle and assumilate to the society where
we live. Yet we hold and appreciate our culture as we learn the
ways of the Oxidentals.

>>>Another article on Feb. 10th 1990 had this headline:
    "Ontario More Rednecked: <says> Calgary Mayor." ( Al Duerr )

Now, we have agreement. There is no need for such words!

 
>>>Cal (for example) why don't you call Sadeqa Siddiqui the co-ordinator
    of the South Asia Community Centre in Montreal and ask him about what
    he meant in that statement. ( Speaking of proper comparisons -> Ont. & Que. 
    
   I do not know of this man. I keep pulse of the events in the
Chinese community from the Chinatown_News printed in Vancouver.
You see, I have a hard enough time understanding Chinese
translated to English as the news is often done in Chinatown
newspapers. I also subscribe to Chinese language newspapers
printed in Toronto and Vancouver.

I view the anglo-franco phone affair with interest since it
affects the way future immigrants have to deal with the language
of business and government. Here in Colorado, they passed a law
saying that the language of government will be English. It can be
a powerful tool for prejudice. In many areas of the United
States, such laws are passed or pending. The example of the
anglo-franco phone debacle is held up as reasoning sometimes.

Cal Hoe

    >> >>   Remember - prejudice, bias & bigotry DO NOT equate with hate, no
    matter
    >> >>   how distateful they may be. 
    
    
    >>    I  don't understand this statement. Can you explain  ?
    
	Easy.  If you are multilingual, what is your favorite language for
    communication ?  What is your favorite food ? What kind of member of
    the opposite sex do you find most attractive ? How do you feel when a
    homeless person corners you and asks for money, repeatedly ?
    Would you lend 20 bucks to a stranger to pay back next payday ? How
    about to your best friend ?
    
    If your favorite language is, say your mother tongue - that is a bias.
    If you find blondes with brown eyes most attractive that is a bias, and
    if you usually spend more time with those members of the opposite sex
    when out on the town (hypothetically speaking) then that is prejudicial
    treatment. If you would not lend 20 bucks to a stranger, but would to
    your best friend, that that is prejudicial. If you feel imposed upon by
    a homeless stree person asking for money, if you even feel like saying
    "go get a job, get treatment, get off the Street!", that is a bigotted
    attitude, even if you say nothing.
    
    Yet none of these behaviours imply, require, or suggest hate.
    
    Scooter

    To continue where I left off,
    
    The EEC may have english as it's primary language of communication, but
    when these people get home, they speak their own language, and immerse
    themselves in their own culture.  In fact, english may be used in the
    board rooms, but as soon as they step outside, they will probably ALL
    speak french because in restaurants and hotels in Bruxelles french is
    understood by more people, in fact I heard that in order, the languages
    spoken by more people are french, german and english.
    
    All you people out there in noteland who read, write and speak another
    language, don't you feel you get a benefit from it?  do you want your
    children to understand ONLY english?  
    
    And those of you who came from another country, when your children or
    your grandchildren (this could have been you as well) tell you that
    your traditions and customs (and language as well) are no good and
    "from the old country", do you feel resentment? now if this happened in
    your own country, would you try to preserve your culture or would you
    just let it die?
    
    I will not if I can help it, but it does not mean that my children will
    not speak english, after all I know enough that when you travel outside
    of Qu�bec, you absolutely NEED to understand english, and if I can get
    them to learn another language as well I will.
    
    Jean
    

    re: *.80                     
    
    Bias becomes bigotry when it interferes in your dealings with others.
    
    The parallel with preferences in sex partners is interesting, but
    possibly misleading, because nobody is attempting to legislate
    desirable characteristics in members of the appropriate sex, but Some
    Jurisdictions *are* attempting to legislate which language people use
    for communication. Sault Ste. Marie and the province of Quebec are
    equally guilty on this score.
    
    It's sad that an issue that could unify us (language) is tearing us
    apart instead. I'm reminded of the quote in another note about Canada
    having French government, British technology and American culture, when
    it could have had British government, French culture and American
    technology...
    
    ...laura

    Now having found the correct location on this discussion it seems
    to be one of those 'no light at the end of the tunnel issues'.
    
    From my indirect knowledge of the situation (sister in the Soo for
    8 years) her view seems to be based on the opinion that making 'special
    provisions' for the French Language when 60% plus of the locals
    are of Italian descent is illogical (not withstanding Canadian
    history).
    
    From a European perspective there is another 'difficulty' to overcome,
    that of remoteness...from the Soo it is 250km east to Sudbury and
    650km north/west to Thunder Bay (or does Wawa count...) and this
    is in relatively densely populated Ontario...
    
    Does isolation beget isolationalism ??   wherever you are...
    
    
    There is an argument going on in the UK over whether the Blasphemy
    laws should be extended to cover religions other than Christianity
    or abolish them altogether or do nothing...
    
    Is it 'practical' to have 2 official languages in what has now become
    a multicultural society ?
    
    
    What problems does the EEC have in store with its official language
    policies now that we are heading for more 'integration' ?
    
    
    One 'difficulty' if English is your native tongue and it is a de
    facto lingua franca what other language do you learn ??
    
    
    

    re: .-1
    
�    One 'difficulty' if English is your native tongue and it is a de
�    facto lingua franca what other language do you learn ??
 
    Personally I find that easy to answer.

    I lived in M�nchen many years ago and after that spent a lot of
    time visiting Karlsruhe.  I learnt German as that was the language
    of my "hosts".
    
    In Canada I have chosen to live in an area of Ottawa-Carleton which
    is predominantly anglophone so I choose not to learn french.  If
    I were to relocate to a predominantly francophone area then I would 
    learn french.
    
    My son is/was in french immersion at school.  This meant that he
    took most of his schooling in the french language.  (This is no
    longer possible as he is in the gifted program which makes no allowance
    for gifted french immersion tuition.)  He still take french at an
    advanced level in order to make him as bilingual as possible.  This
    will give him the full freedom later on to choose where in Canada
    he wants to live and work.
    
          
    

    Re. .83

    	After that comment about the Grand Canal, I can assure you that you
    have probably lost all credibility with the patrons of this CANADIAN
    notesfile. Your comment about are great unifying Grand Canal has cut me
    to the heart and I bleed excessively for one who could never understand
    or care for such a humanitarian cause, that is, the Grand Canal.
    	Hey by the way, as long as you live in Vermont, why don't you go
    and proselytize the people in Essex Junction? They work right near Acme
    Paint & Glass, you know.... The people who hate DEC.
    	Interesting that a country full of brotherly love like the U.S. is
    such a dangerous place to live unlike Canada which, according to Ari,
    is so riddled with hatred. Sure we get taxed to death, but at least we
    live longer...

    All that paddlin' on the Grand Canal keeps us in great shape!

    Glenn

    (Hey, if you can't laugh, you can't really live)

    When Canada was formed, it was given that both languages would be
    EQUALY promoted, at that time most of Manitoba, New Brunswick, a good
    part of Ontario and ALL of Qu�bec were french (I'm forgetting other
    parts too) Now history has proven that french was snuffed in ALL
    provinces except Qu�bec, partly due to the relatively large families
    that were promoted by the church at the time for the province of
    Qu�bec, and the fact that the schools were run by the clergy (french). 
    In other provinces, where the schools were run by the protestants and
    thus english, the french culture has all but vanished, and is but
    folkloric, just as are the cultures imported by the immigrants over the
    years (ukranian in the western provinces....)
    
    Now it seems that some people (APEC members {Association for the
    Preservation of English in Canada}) think that french is a menace to
    them, and in some cases, it is, like jobs can be given to BI-lingual
    (french-english) people first, when they must deal with the public. 
    Please remember that it is still a constitutional right to be served in
    BOTH languages in Canada (except in Alberta that is).
    
    We see the same resentment here at DEC, since they openned the Hull
    facility, they have asked for bi-lingual CRRs and RDC and CSC personnel
    and some people just can not fill those jobs because of those
    requirements, who is to blame?   french speaking custommers
    for requesting service in french or themselves for not being alble to
    learn another language! 
    
    You tell me
    
    Jean
    

Now, we could all sit back for a few minutes and relax, take a deep breath
and ponder what has been entered in this NOTE:

	1.  Nothing has been resolved.

	2.  Harmony has not been fostered.

	3.  Sophistry reigns supreme.

	4.  No one has been swayed by the debate.

Those of us who have the good fortune to live in this country and have
taken action to preserve our multi-cultural heritage are to be commended.

They and their school boards, town councils and municipal governments are
the ones who will, in the long run, foster understanding and tolerance.

Certainly, we can point an accusing finger at others who have chosen economics
over culture, but who praises those communities which have maintained
language rights for minority groups and continue to provide language training
in their public school system?

Pat (who lives in area which is predominantly English but where some councils
     have voted in favour of bilingualism)

RE .88
Glenn,

Some of us Canadian DECies happen to work and reside in the US;
others of us may be Americans with Canadian roots. We still can
participate in the opinionizing of the language debate. So, it's
no like it's only Yankees who espouse opinions and not know the
great bi-lingual culture.

RE .89
Jean,

I, personally, can attest that a culture cannot be lost just
because the language of business happens to be English. I am sure
that you have dined in a Chinese resturant where French or
English is spoken along side the dialect of Chinese. I am sure
that you might even observed that my country-men also ate with
chop-sticks, a very part of my culture.

Now if they want to legislate that I must do business only in
language X, I will protest bitterly, but if I am to count on
expanding my business, I will surely comply and do business in
language X.

Calvin Hoe

    
>>    Now it seems that some people (APEC members {Association for the
>>    Preservation of English in Canada}) think that french is a menace to
>>    them, and in some cases, it is, like jobs can be given to BI-lingual
>>    (french-english) people first, when they must deal with the public. 
>>    Please remember that it is still a constitutional right to be served in
    BOTH languages...
    
    
             Why do advocates of "Alliance for (whatever)...
             view French as a "menace" ?
    Any explanation from anyone ?
    
  >>  We see the same resentment here at DEC, since they openned the Hull
  >>  facility, they have asked for bi-lingual CRRs and RDC and CSC personnel
  >>  and some people just can not fill those jobs because of those
  >>  requirements, who is to blame?   french speaking custommers
  >>  for requesting service in french or themselves for not being alble to
  >>  learn another language! 
    
     Scooter with your abundant knowledge about Canada and as the sole
     moderator (why ?) can you explain the above statement ?
     The company is in business to make money by selling products right ?
     The CUSTOMER comes first/last . Wrong ?  Care to explain free from
     emotions of anger, bitterness, phobia or whatever ? 
     I mean an explanation from economic/business standpoint not from
     personal preference - (like "who to osculate today")  
      
    

 >>    Wow!
    
 >>   I show examples of how things AREN'T black & white and I get accused
    of misleading people ! I wasn't drawing parallels - I was describing
    examples where *hate* IS NOT NECESSARILY THE LOGICAL OUTCOME OF UNDESIRABLE
 >>   BEHAVIOUR. Is that clear ?
    
         What is clear ? xxxphobia ?
               
 >>   BTOVT::BOATENG_K has made allusions to hate & nazis etc. ad nauseum.
    Saying it's so doesn't make it so.
    
    �   >> It's sad that an issue that could unify us (language) is tearing
    �us
    �   >> apart instead. 
    �    
    �    Canadian LEADERS like Scooter, should realize this and commit
    �themselves 
    
    Well thank you for the compliment. However, I am not bickering - I am
    discussing an issue. And the discussion is mostly with a non-Canadian
    non-resident who, from a lofty perch, seems to believe every piece
    of material that paints Canada as a hate-ridden, bigot-laden scumhole,
    and refuses to admit that things may not be as perceived from afar and
    second hand by writers of dubious intentions and credentials.
                                   Scooter
                              -----------            -----------
    
    Hey, Mr Sole Moderator, relax will'ya ?
    Laura's and my note didn't say "(You) - Scooter is Misleading" .
    Both notes just said that the example could be misleading, not YOU ? Got It?
    
    Scooter you sound like a wounded dragon. Why ? 
    Are you trying to stifle opinions different from your clique's ?
    Are U trying to SCARE THE SCATOS out of non-members of your anglo-clique?
    >>non-resident>>  What do you mean ?
    
    If you are extremely informed about your country, as you seem -
    Don't you know that the TOWN of DERBY LINE is  in Quebec Canada
    and the other half in Vermont, US..?
    Are you aware that the library in Derby Line is divided into Que/Verm.?
    How do you know who is a resident of what province or state.?
    The NODE BTOVT:: could be in Vermont not the resident .
    Hey THINQUE (sp?) BLENDING ! And stop this US & THEM bull !
    
    p/s I am not angry. Just continuing what you started !

    Since the current line is getting nowhere, I'd like to throw a new idea
    out for discussion...
    
    The concept of Canada is over 200 years old, dating back to when Wolfe
    whupped Montcalm in 1759. Is there any reason why we can't sit down and
    renegotiate the terms of what was originally a shotgun marriage?
    
    The eastern Europeans are making dramatic changes to the way their
    countries work. Perhaps it's high time we did the same. No
    preconditions. No rhetoric. Let's try to find something that works.
    
    ...laura

re:    264.94 by laura halliday

�    Is there any reason why we can't sit down and
�    renegotiate the terms of what was originally a shotgun marriage?
    
    Only two hundred plus years of distrust.
    

Anyone see the debate last night on CBC and Radio Canada?  It was a simultaneous
broadcast (sort of, CBC had commercials Radio Canada didn't) of The Journal
and Le Point.  Barbara Frump and the host of Le Point moderated the debate
between the pro-Meech Lake Accord team of Claude Ryan and Brian Peckford
and the anti-Meech Lake Accord team of Marc Lalonde and Sharon Carscreech.

NOTERS in this topic should feel proud, the aforementioned got nowhere as well.

Pat

    Pat,

    	Did they discuss the Grand Canal issue at all and how its
    completion will affect Meech Lake? e.g. lower water levels etc.
    Was any of this discussed??
    
    Glenn

You know not of what you speak:

>    Don't you know that the TOWN of DERBY LINE is  in Quebec Canada
>    and the other half in Vermont, US..?

False.  Derby Line is in Vermont.  Rock Island is in Quebec.  The two separate
towns share a number of facilities.  One of them, the library, is built
across the international boundary (which is marked on the floor).

You never responded about "No free samples."

>Und welche freien Proben sollen wir eigentlich vermeiden?  Und kann ein VTXXX
>Substantive nicht gro�schreiben, oder?

BTW, Would you be able to write better if I send you the necessary parts to make
your VT100 do the DEC Multinational Character Set (in conjunction with VMS TFF)?

/john

    Dear John,
    
              It's nice to hear of you again.
              How about U & I doing a tug-of-war 
              Across the LINE in the library.? 
    
    You can pull your side of the rope in Greek too, if you want.
    
    Tell me this the "two towns" used to be ONE until a drunk 
    British surveyor was asked to step in to settle the score..
                      False or True ?
    
    << Rock Island is in Quebec>> 
                                  Strange ! Were you the one who said
                                  All the English "signs" have been changed
                                  to French in Quebec province ?
                                  So, why is Rock Island still in English ?
                                  

I've heard the folklore about the drunken surveyor.

I don't know whether it's false or true.

But Rock Island/Derby Line isn't the only place where there's a building
across the border; there's a bar somewhere on the border with New York
which also straddles the border.

Don't be a jerk about the sign business.  We know the signs have been changed,
but proper names were not required to change.  At least not yet.

You still haven't answered my questions about your terminal or your personal
name.  Do you want to upgrade to the DEC Multinational character set or not?

/john

 Re note 264. by John Covert
    
    
>>...we could discuss whether the language spoken in Quebec really is French.


 Look at this !  You are bashing the French language spoken in Quebec as if
    you are some kind of an authority. 
    Speaking of Boateng in note .21 (Gen. Info.) not knowing anything,
    what makes you think you know so much the you have the nerves to
    make ridiculing statements about a language spoken by millions of
    Canadians in Quebec. ?
    
    How could you be so crude in condemning Quebecers and "their language?"
    Are you  some kind of an immortal genius who knows everything 
    about Quebec ? What makes you so sure of yourself ?  
    
    Is this an indication of a deep seated enthnocentric bigotry hidden
    within you ?  If you are xenophobic towards the French in Quebec, Canada
    then obviously you will be hostile towards immigrants. That explains ! 
    
    Remember, I enjoy your kind of hostility, so carry on ! 
    
    BTW: You started it.

    Note 264.40 by John Covert
    
>> Huh?  Are we talking about the same Quebec?  The Quebec where the STOP signs
>> say "ARR�T" (even in France they say "STOP")?  The Quebec where air traffic
>> controllers speak French (even in France they speak only English)?  The Quebec
>> where English speaking residents cannot send their children to the English
>> schools unless they, themselves, attended an English school _in_ Quebec?
                     /john
                            Any facts to support these  French/Quebec
                            bashing statememts ?
           
    If not, then it sounds like hate appeals ==> antilocution .
    No wonder the bickering continues. Experts like g..... have all
    the problems and answers figured out. Blame the French/Quebec just
    like josef the brilliant and knowledgeable would blame the "gypsies ?"
      
    

     Note 264.67                    Language Inequality                     
 By COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert"                      
                        RE:67  -< Don't try >-  I will ! Oops I already did!
    
 .67>> I don't think you can justify calling me Anti-French or Anti-Vermont.
                             ---?---
    
    I don't need to justify anything.   Spitting of x'phobic vibes by genuis
    ethnocentric bgs. should be obvious to most objective observers.
    
    RE:0 >> Bilingualism>> 
    
    A question for those who have figures to share.
    
    What is the percentage of Canadians who are bilingual (English/French)?
    
    o What is the percentage of the Anglophone population in Canada who are
      fluent in French ?         
    
    o What is the percentage of Francophones in Canada who are fluent in
       English ?
                   

    RE:.100
    
    >> There's a bar somewhere on the border with New York which also
    >> straddles the border.
    
    The bar has a linme paint through separating Canada and the U.S.
    The Canadian side is Dundee, Quebec and the US side is Fort Covington,
    New York. Interesting to note that the pool table is on the US as
    the US do not have an entertainment tax like Canada.
    
    Alan
    (who_used_to_take_the_boat_across_from_Cornwall_Ont._on_a_Sunday_afternoon
    for_a_few_"quarts")
    
    P.S. Check out the February issue of National Geographic it has
    an interesting article on the Canada and the US, including a picture
    of the bar in Dundee/Fort Covington.

Taking .34 and .40 out of context seems to be the way you like to operate,
Kwame.  The "is it really French" comment was in response to the issue of
requiring French which is before the World Court of Human Rights (any update
on that?).  The comments about French-only usage were in response to someone
claiming he knew of no French-only declarations.

No one is falling for it.  The only hate-mongering going on here is, as
Scooter pointed out, your incessant attempt to stir it up.

And you're still ignoring my offer of the parts to make your VT100 do the
DEC multinational character set so that you can correctly write the French
language.  You're ignoring my question about your "freien Proben" as well.

/john

    re .105
    
    Are you offering me an upgrade for my Apollo Domain VT100 emulator?
    
    Tony

    RE:105
    
    >> ..the only hate-mongering going is....
    
    On the 12 noon news broadcast on CKBY (Radio Ottawa) Monday, March,19
    it was reported that "The Alliance for The Preservation of English"
    was launching a campaign to help kill Meech Lake.
    The Alliance was said to be preparing an ad blitz that was expected to
    appear in 50 different newspapers across Canada.
    Has anyone read what the ad says ? Any expert analysis of the contents?
    Has anyone heard/read something similar ?
    

    RE: 264.103 
    
    << o What is the percentage of the Anglophone population in Canada who
         are fluent in French   ?
    
    If the rest of the other questions are too difficult for you, why don't
    you answer at least one question, which is related to  topic 264.0
    Repeated questions about model of terminal is an attempt to deflect the
    discussion to something irrelevant to base note. 
    BUT if you insist, then answer all or most of the questions in .103 and
    .108 and I'll answer yours about Latin and others. 
             

          For what it's worth to the conversation, here's an copy of a
          letter  (reprinted without persmission) to the editor of the
          Sarnia Observer, from March 20/90.


                    "Live and let live"

                    Sir:

                    The  Ontario   government   now   offers
                    bilingual  services in a small number of
                    communities where there  are  a  lot  of
                    French-speaking  tax-payers.   You  have
                    received a lot of letters  objecting  to
                    this "waste of money".

                    Let's    put    that    spending    into
                    perspective.   Ontario  spends less than
                    $3 per  person  per  year  on  bilingual
                    services.   Compare  that  to  the  $100
                    million-plus  that  the  government   of
                    Toronto  is  perparing  to spend to dump
                    its  trash  on  our  doorstep.   Or  the
                    millions   governments   spend  studying
                    subjects like toilet seats  in  Honduras
                    or   the   sex  life  of  the  Himalayan
                    tortoise!

                    Maybe you object to  one  group  getting
                    more services than another.  A person in
                    jail gets  "government  services"  worth
                    about  $50,000  a  year!  Does that make
                    you want to turn them all loose?

                    Besides, how can we  be  "English  only"
                    when  we have french toast at breakfast,
                    french fries at lunch and  french  onion
                    soup at dinner?

                    Let's live and let live.  As the  French
                    say, "Vive la difference!"

                    R.O'Donnell
                    Sarnia

    re: killing Meech Lake.
    
    hmmm... both Trudeau and this 'hate-mongering' group want to
    kill Meech Lake ...
    
    Guess that makes Trudeau a hate mongerer too ...
    
    Scooter

    The APEC group is something to watch very carefully. About 2 weeks
    ago, a local Toronto rag, NOW Magazine had an investigative report
    on the APEC and its alliances with extreme right-wing organizations
    in the US. I don't know the details but there are connections upto
    the level of funding/propoganda/roots with American groups such
    as U.S. English, the Contra supporting groups, etc.
    
    So I am not surprised to see them oppose Meech Lake as a larger
    part of their political agenda -- and we thought they only want
    to help stop government spending!! 

    I think Canada should spend MORE on bilingualism. It should also go
    ahead with the proposed retractable roof for the Grand Canal.
    
    Glenn

    I am a foreigner and I don't live in Canada, though I lived in Montreal
    when I was a child. My opinion on the matter can thus be totally wrong.
    The only thing I can tell is that life in a multi-ethnic environment
    can be stimulating and fascinating as long as the different peoples
    respect one another. If I were French Canadian I would probably be
    afraid of losing my identity, culture, etc., but I surely wouldn't
    like to live in an "unpolluted" province where everything, even
    road-signs, must be French. The same is true for English-speaking
    people of course, many of whom are so confident that English is
    some sort of passe-partout that they are usually unwilling to learn
    other languages.
    I enjoyed living in Quebec though, being Italian, I've never grasped
    the "hidden" reasons for this rivalry.  As " a third party" I was
    "forced" to integrate and found that the things that make peoples
    similar are by far more numerous than those dividing them.
    Ill-conceived laws and/or regulations can widen the gap instead of
    narrowing it. 
    Languages are only a "transport"; human beings should add value on it.
    
    Forgive me for breaking in. I love your country and I'm sorry to see
    how being fussy about trifles can make people's lives awkward.
    
    Fabio
    

      To begin. My name is Tom Bowie. I was born in Campbell's Bay, a small
    town is west Quebec. My father is english Canadian, and my mother is
    french Canadian. I'm well informed on some subjects, one of them being,
    Caught in the Middle! I've seen it all! I'm disgusted with all of us,
    myself included.
      Why has language become such a big deal? I grew up speaking english,
    and learned some french along the way. I respect people, they have 
    differences. So be it...
      In my eyes, apathy and ignorance are the 2 main problems in this
    country right now. Open a book, find out what being Canadian is all
    about!! French and english got along for the last few hundred years,
    although tentatively. Let's not blow it now, Canada is too great of a
    country, to see it die.  
     
    
    
    

    re .114 I couldn't agree more ...
    
    Canada has existed well over 100 years, and yes, there have been
    problems with the acceptance of our major bi-cultural identity (let
    alone our multi-cultural identity).
    
    When does this bi-cultural identity become a problem ?  When our
    politicians think they can speed up the process of building this
    identity; when they think that they can force predominantly English
    language provinces to provide services in French; when they think
    that they can force Quebec to promote English.  This kind of change
    has to come slowly ... it cannot be rushed because politicians see
    it as their major triumph while in power.
    
    Canada took many years to form its initial alliance.  It has taken
    over 100 years to reach the position it is in today.  What makes
    our politicians think that the countries bi-cultural woes can be
    solved inside just two more months with just the Meech Lake Accord?
    
    The more our politicians force this Accord upon us, the more the
    polarised the factions become, and now that the accord is on the
    table, nobody is willing to lose face by walking away from it and
    look for a solution acceptable to the people rather than a solution
    acceptable to the politicians.
    
    Our governments, local, provincial, federal, are all ruling as if
    they are ruling by some divine right, without truly representing
    the people that elected them - and it's happening in other democracies
    too.  It is time the politicians actually represented the people,
    and stopped thrusting their ideas of "what's best for the people"
    upon us.
    
    I believe that language and cultual identity are being used as weapons 
    for political posturing.  If our elected officials had the guts to
    negotiate the inclusion of Quebec in the Canadian Constitution in a
    step by step basis over a period of time, instead of "instantly"
    then I'm sure it could be done.
    
    Stuart

    re. .115

    	Yes, but, what about The Grand Canal??? Surely it must figure
    prominently in all of this?

    	By they way, all signs on the Grand Canal are bilingual. 

    Buoy what a relief!
    
    Glenn

    Re  .116
    
    For ideas on the Grand Canal, visit Dunnville Ont, where you will find
    lots of info on the Grand Canal ... but regretably they are likely
    uni-lingual.  From my knowledge, the Grand Canal was forgotten about
    somewhere around the turn of the century ... the last century that is.
    So, the Grand Canal makes the sqare root of the cube of no difference
    in all this.
    
    Sorry to dash your hopes.
    
    Stuart

                    Ahem ! Is the Grand Empire's Illusion coming to an end ?

    Not wishing to burst anyone's bubble, I just came back from vacation in
    Costa Rica, and the stop signs said ALTO, so why can't ours say ARR�T?
    
    Jean
    
    PS It was easier to get guides that spoke spanish / english / french
    there than in the western provinces too!
    

>>so why can't ours say ARR�T?
    
At fish crossings on the Qu�bec portion of the Grand Canal, the stop
signs say WWT not ARR�T.

Pat    

    OK, I'll take the bait on your fish story....

    What does WWT mean?
    

    Woa Woa Tabernacle ?

    (Is this what it means?)

       It my interest some to know that the required breaking system that is
    required by law on the Grand Canal is a handy little 4 ton weight. All
    craft on the Grand Canal will be required to have one to ensure that
    there will be no collisions on the Grand Canal. Kayak enthusiast vow to
    take this one all the way to the Supreme Court, I don't understand what
    all the fuss is about. I think it's about time we start ignoring these
    vocal special interest groups.

    Glenn

    RE: 120 & 121 the Rush & Rich Co. (  P/R consultants for the F-GR)
    
    I thought note #282 has been reserved for all grand(cabal)canal issues.
    
    Or has any of the co-mods moved it to the grand central dumps ?
    
    Perhaps notes 264.120 & 121 should be moved to the grand canal #282.
    
    Is that too much ?

RE: .119

How should the ALTO signs have read?  Isn't Spanish 'the' language of
Costa Rica?  (They aren't foolishly bilingual, are they?)

RE: -.1

A Grand Idea that has apparently been deep-sixed, or scuttled as the
case may be, by the Grand (or is it Gran?) Merry Pranksters.

    Perhaps the builders didn't want to pay the GST on construction
    materials.

Although I continue to think the French language laws in Qu�bec are overkill,
I ran into another example of why the francophone population feels it has to
do something:

The evening before we drove to Montr�al, we were eating in the restaurant of
the country inn we stopped at on our way.  An english-speaking woman who had
lived her entire forty years in Montr�al was talking about restaurants we
should consider when we got there.

She was trying to tell me about "Les Halles" but she was saying "Les Salles".

You would think that someone who lived among the French culture her entire
life would know about aspirated "h"s, at least on words as common as "Les
Halles!"  (Of course, I only remembered it because of being corrected on a
trip to Paris a few years ago -- and I doubt she'll ever make the mistake
again -- unless this is a case of Qu�bec pronunciation differing from France.)

/john

    John,
    
    No the pronunciation is EXACTLY the same, and you just witnessed one of
    the reasons we are so upset.  To think that someone would TOTALLY
    ignore our language for so long is an indication of the kind of respect
    they must have for us.
    
    Kinda like a resident of San Diego NOT knowing spanish.
    
    Jean
    

>Kinda like a resident of San Diego NOT knowning spanish.

Not to start a different rathole here, but San Diego is officially an
English speaking city.

Thus I would compare an English speaking person born in Montr�al not
learning that Les Halles has an aspirated "h" to be more like a Spanish
speaking person born in San Diego not learning that "Yes" isn't pronounced
"djes".

The U.S. has taken a different approach to cultural diversity -- here the
overwhelming majority of almost every ethnic group has decided that equality
is obtained by having a common language and no communications barriers.  The
maintenance of other languages is _not_ a national priority, and can be
considered a hobby, like maintaining other aspects of the culture of countries
of origin (like cooking, crafts, dances, etc.)

/john

    re .127
    
    What John really means is "So far in the U.S. the anglophones have
    been able to beat everyone else into submission."
    
    Tony

    And everywhere else too!
    
    I didn't imply that a San-Diegoan (San-Diego isn't THAT spanish?) HAD
    to understand spanish, but being so close to 100 million spanish
    speaking people (that is NOT counting central + south america) it seems
    natural (to me) that they could at least know how to communicate in
    spanish AND get the pronunciation right.
    
    Jean
    

    Though the melting pot philosophy has its drawbacks, the notion of
    picking *one* language and sticking to it has its advantages. We
    standardize computer things all the time...is language a platform for
    people who think they have something to prove, or is it a tool for
    communication? There is a time and a place for celebrating differences,
    but not when they impede communication and understanding.
    
    ...laura

	re .131

>    people who think they have something to prove, or is it a tool for
>    communication? There is a time and a place for celebrating differences,

	It depends what you are trying to communicate. There are eight words
	in Welsh for which the nearest English word is "love". The nuances
	get lost in translation.

	Standardizing on English could be viewed like standardizing on
	FORTRAN or Unix. Just because something is widely used, it doesn't
	mean it provides the best functionality.

	Tony

    However many words there are, they do me no good at all, since I don't
    speak Welsh.
    
    ...laura

    Did any of you see "the journal" yesterday?
    
    They had about a dozen people from across Canada discussing the
    language issue and the possibility of Qu�bec separating.  It was quite
    something to see the racist arguments coming from some of the
    representatives of the english provinces, like:
    
    "I don't want goddamn french rammed down my troath" !!!!
    
    towards the end there was an emotional outburst from a lady from one of
    the western provinces  "We NEED Qu�bec for our economy to survive" she
    said, "If Qu�bec does separate, we will have no other option than to
    join the US, I don't want to become an american" then she started to
    cry.  Coming from the "let those eastern bastards freeze in the dark"
    people, it was kind of hard to swallow.
    
    The only one who understood what we want was a native indian (who got
    slandered btw)
    
    Interesting show.
    
    
    Jean
    

    re .-1
    
    Jean,
    
    Methinks taking the excerpts out of the context of the whole program
    doesn't really convey the magic that happened amongst those seven
    people.
    
    They took seven people from various parts of Canada, 2 francophones,
    and one of whom was openly a separatist and put them together for a
    weekend to discuss the future of Canada based on predominantly the
    anglo-french relationship.
    
    These seven people came away with a whole new understanding of each
    other.  The most noticeable thing I saw amongst the people in the
    beginning was their not seeing the world from the other people's
    shoes, which lead to comments like the one Jean just displayed.  As
    the weekend went on, you could begin to see that these people were
    starting to see the respect for each others views building, and
    some understanding.
    
    I think that if I were French in Quebec, I would probably feel very
    upset about the lack of tolerance and understanding by the rest of
    Canada for such simple things as language.  As an example, the guy
    who didn't want French rammed down his throat only saw Canada as an
    English speaking country and that when he drove into Quebec he thought
    he was in a foreign country.  What would frustrate me is that he and
    a lot of other Canadians do not seem to understand, mainly because of
    their day to day lack of need to understand it, that Canada is not
    just English only, and just as they feel Quebec is a foreign country
    without English, when a Quebecker leaves Quebec, he feels he is in a
    foreign country too.
    
    The feeling I had, and I think what the program showed was that our
    apparent hatred, one for the other, comes from that basic lack of need
    to understand.   The two people who really understood the situation
    the most clearly were the native Indian and the Francophone living in
    the Yukon.  The person who understood the least was the guy from Oshawa
    who has absolutely no need in his daily life to even think about French
    other than the irritant of bilingual product packaging and the like but
    even he, by the end of the weekend, began to respect the fact that
    there are French in the country and that they are human beings like
    all of us.
    
    The impression I had of the separatist was that, in the end, althouugh
    she did have some understanding of the anglophones position, she was
    driven by the ultra-conservative (small 'c') notion of preserving the 
    French identity at all costs by detaching Quebec from Canada and
    putting up barriers to all English influences.
    
    The matter of the Quebec flag being treated like a door-mat was brought
    up many times in that program and in the long special before that, and
    what disturbed me the most about that were two things ... the first
    that the incident does not represent all of English Canada, and second
    that the incident seems to have been almost over-publicised by the
    media to the point of being propoganda.
    
    I would hope that a lot of English and French people were able to watch
    that program and learned some understanding for each other, because I
    believe that understanding is what is really needed here, not Meech
    Lake Accords and companion resolutions, or politicians, but vox pop
    understanding.
    
    In a way, I agree with the woman from the west who cried about it, not
    because I see the rest of Canada disintegrating into the US (although
    that's a horrible reality), but because I cannot see a Canada without
    Quebec and its heritage: the two are so intertwined.  I don't care
    about the economic impacts (well I do, but not as my primary motivation)
    but I do care on an emotional basis, just as the separatist saw no
    way for Quebec to be Quebec as a part of Canada, I see no way for
    Canada to be Canada without Quebec.
    
    For the record, I am not 100% Canadian .. I was born in the UK ... of
    Canadian and British parents, spent 13 years of my childhood here,
    16 years back in England, and another 9 back here.  I came to back to
    Canada because it is a great place to raise a family ... a place to
    learn how to live with people of various extractions without the
    prejudice shown for example in England.  It's not perfect, as this
    crisis is showing.
    
    As I mentioned in another note, I do believe our politicians have
    pushed us all Quebeckers and other Canadians too fast into something
    we are all afraid of.  I wish there was a way of bridging this gap
    where our politicians are not afraid of losing face.  Our governments
    have promoted multi-culturalism for so long to help to integrate the
    people from other worlds into our country, but they have failed
    miserably to educate us all in learning to accept our own inborn
    multi-cutural nature.
    
    I think that if not pressured, most Candians would welcome Quebec and
    would believe and hope most Quebeckers would want to embrace Canada.
    Let's give our governments the message to stop the pressure, let things
    cool down and take this procedure step by step, and stop trying to
    put together the Eiffel Tower without all the rivets in place.
    
    Stuart

    If only ALL Canadians were thinking the way you do, we would have
    better understanding for each other.
    
    The native indian did say that his culture was all but a souvenir
    (altough this was scoffed at by one of the anglophones), I for one do
    not wish that to happen to mine.
    
    The woman from the Yukon (francophone) will eventually lose her
    culture, it may take a few years, but it WILL!
    
    I (and many Qu�becois) do NOT wish nor expect the rest of Canada to
    have french signs, packaging.... but here, yes.
    
    Speaking of bi-lingual packaging, just look at them, not to insult the
    english population, the french is often on the bottom, or on the side
    that you don't see (unless you are left handed).  Why can't they do it
    right?
    
    Oh did you notice that out of those seven people only two were
    bi-lingual, and who were they?  the only two francophones, why is that
    so? (it would have been a pretty dull program for the rest of the
    country if they only spoke in french)
    
    Jean
    
    
    

    You know, it's not really that all Canadians aren't thinking the way
    I do, it's just a matter of they don't HAVE to think about it, so
    they can end up with some very prejudiced views.  These aren't
    actively prejudiced, but passively so, and so some real honest
    education, like more programs like last night's Journal, would go
    an incredibly long way to teaching Canadians that their opposite
    culture counterparts are not "out to get them".
    
    You talk about losing cultures ... you seem to forget that we are
    all losing our cultures around the world, and building new ones.  The
    British who came to Canada very rapidly lost their culture ... a
    shadow of the original English culture as they knew it remains.  The
    French in France are becoming 'European' as are the English and
    Italians and so on.
    
    It is communication that is causing this "culture loss".  Look at all
    the languages and cultures of Europe that have survived, in spite of
    having another country only 50 miles away in almost any direction.
    I don't wish to seem insensitive to Quebec's loss of culture, but what
    Qubeckers seem frightened of is part of a natural cultural evolution 
    that is happening on a global scale, not just in Quebec.  The ONLY
    way to preserve Quebec's French culture of today is to build a wall
    around it ... jam all radio and TV from outside ... forbid all visitors
    both in and out.  (This sounds remarkably familiar but for a different
    reason!)
    
    Obviously that is not a practical solution in a real world, so how do
    you preserve the French Culture ... not by legislation ... that just
    gets people angry like any other oppressive legislation, but rather
    by active propogation of things French ... Induce people to WANT to
    use French, to WANT to enjoy French culture ... show them that it is
    GOOD!  Don't force them by forbidding them to use English or whatever
    language they chose, even in Quebec.
    
    Yes the French culture will change, but you are going to have to find
    a way to accept that, and find ways in which to make those changes in
    acceptable ways.  You cannot cling to the French culture of the past.
    Culture is a living thing ... let it live ...
    
    It is interesting that the "French that has been "pushed" down the
    throats of Anglophones" has been primarily as a result of Federal
    policies and initiatives rather than provincial.  I don't know about
    English polices in Quebec ... I don't have that info.  I don't feel
    that French has been pushed down my throat in Ontario, but any 
    Francisation (sorry for the horrible word ... I can't think of a better
    one) seems to have come from the Feds.
    
    The bilingual people being French is not at all unusual, and is an
    international phenomenon.  There seems to be an international rule of
    English ... "if a foreigner doesn't understand you, speak more slowly
    and LOUDER".
    
    Stuart

    Then who is grumbling about the B.C. school districts that are cutting
    back or eliminating French Immersion programs? Who is demanding French
    school boards in B.C. and Alberta?
    
    Who watches channel 26 (CBUFT - Soci�t� Radio-Canada, Vancouver)?
    
    These all cost a lot of money - money that Western folks would
    generally rather spend on other things.
    
    ...laura

>    Then who is grumbling about the B.C. school districts that are cutting
>    back or eliminating French Immersion programs? Who is demanding French
>    school boards in B.C. and Alberta?
    
>    Who watches channel 26 (CBUFT - Soci�t� Radio-Canada, Vancouver)?
    
    Be fair ... it is not Quebec or Quebeckers who are demanding these
    things.
    
    French Immersion programs are being demanded by ANGLOPHONES!
    
    French school boards and French radio and TV are services to
    significant Francophone populations that are not Quebeckers.
    
    Believe it or not, there was serious consideration given this year
    to the cutting back of French Immersion programs in the Carleton
    Board of Education, which covers a huge area of the Ottawa suburbs
    right around the city, including areas that have both majority
    Francophone and Anglophone populations .... Who stood up and said
    these can't be cut ?  Anglophones.
    
    
    Try Toronto where education boards are being forced to provide
    "Heritage Language Programs" for children of foreign extraction.
    And you are bothered by French Immersion ?
    
    Stuart

    Yes there is a definite association in Canada at least of culture to
    language,  the same thing is happening all over the world, the american
    culture has invaded every country BUT in other countries, the language
    is not threatened to the point of becoming extinct.  I know that
    english (read american) music is being played and embraced by the
    young people of every nation, even the remotest parts of the world know
    who Michael Jackson is, they yearn to eat a big mac and drink coke. 
    They listen to the music without any attention being played to what the
    song is all about (ex: Georgie by Rod Stuart, I never knew what the
    song was about until someone told me, then I payed attention to the
    words and sure enough they were right).
    
    We have made great strides in the last 30 years, we have great artists,
    quite a few of which made all francophone nations stand up and listen,
    but so far these feats are still unknown (ignored???) by the english
    community, why is that?
    
    I am not foolish enough to say that every thing english is bad, why do
    they?
    
    We have great comedy shows on TV (one in particular, had it's concept
    adapted to french {France} TV and will be in the US next year) but I
    can't talk about it to the anglophones because they NEVER watch french
    TV!!!!
    
    I hope you see my point of view.
    
    
    Jean
     

    But Jean,
    
    I don't think your average unilingual Frenchman living in France has
    a very high opinion of English culture. And you wouldn't be able to
    discuss the nuances of "The Two Ronnies" with him.
    :-)
    
    Tony

    I sincerely do not believe that the French Language in Quebec is
    threatened to the point of becoming extinct, but as a minority language
    (you cannot deny that) it a) will not remain the same and b) will
    certainly decline but not fatally.
    
    Have you ever been to Europe ?
    
    Look at every country in Europe ... there are Local languages that
    should have died years ago by your prognosis.  In England alone
    there are regionalisms that should be long gone, and everyone should
    by now be speaking Standard English .... but it didn't happen ... and
    why, not because they were preserved by force, but rather because they
    were preserved by being proud of them and passing them from generation
    to genereation.
    
    Look at the little country of Luxembourg, sandwiched between the French
    part of Belgium and Germany ... they still maintain their own language
    (strangely enough it is called Luxembourgish!) ... Luxembourg is about
    50 miles N/S and 30 miles E/W.  How did they preserve their language?
    These people are tri-lingual ... and we have problems with
    bi-lingualism!
    
    The Belgians speak Flemish and French (albeit a regional variation) ...
    Flemish is Dutch-like but it is its own language, and is prominent in
    only a small part of Belgium.  With France to South and French Belgium
    to the East, you'd have thought that by Quebec's logic Flemish would
    also have been long gone.
    
    You can traverse Europe, and you will see this situation repeated time
    and again.
    
    Even languages that have passed away are being revived, not by law, but
    by cultural interest.  Welsh had become a virtually extinct language
    but now the use of Welsh in Wales has become widespread.
    
    Culture and language must be allowed to live ... let them be dynamic
    ... in that way they will not pass away ... they will change and
    that is something that people must learn to accept ... nothing stays
    the way it was ... no matter how hard you try.
    
    
    >We have made great strides in the last 30 years, we have great artists,
    >quite a few of which made all francophone nations stand up and listen,
    >but so far these feats are still unknown (ignored???) by the english
    >community, why is that?
    
    >We have great comedy shows on TV (one in particular, had it's concept
    >adapted to french {France} TV and will be in the US next year) but I
    >can't talk about it to the anglophones because they NEVER watch french
    >TV!!!!
    
    I think what you are seeing there is the effect of Americanisation ...
    we are so busy on the one hand try to follow the "American dream" here
    in Canada, while on the other hand trying desparately to declare
    ourselves not Americans.  We are too busy admiring American TV to watch
    French TV!
    
    As a nation, we are great at putting ourselves down. We have a few
    heroes and that's about it.  If we started blowing our own trumpet more
    supporting our own people then we might start supporting each others
    culture more.
    
    You say you don't talk about this French comedy program with
    Anglophones because they don't watch French TV ... You've given up
    on us before you start you see ... Tell Us about them !  Tell us about
    good things French, tell us about good things in Quebec ... You are
    making the same mistake we do ... "They're xxxxxxphone, they won't be
    interested anyway!"
    
    This is like a marriage ... the partners must communicate, not just
    talk when they want something!
    
    Stuart

    Wait a minute now, when the english members tell me a show is good, I
    try and watch it to make up my own mind, and some of them are good, but
    the reverse is not quite true because for them it would take an EFFORT
    to learn french and appreciate what is shown, I have not given up on
    them, they have, all by themselves.
    
    As for the uniformisation (is that a word?) of languages and cultures,
    the best example is the US itself,  they used to have great accents,
    but with mobile families and that ever present blender the TV (and it's
    sibbling radio), they are fast dissapearing, the same is happenning to
    other countries France and Italy are prime examples.  But in all those
    countries, people are trying to preserve these differences like the
    Breton dialect being revived in Bretagne (France)... are they right for
    doing this? are we for trying to preserve french in Canada? for trying
    to preserve a french facade to the world?
    
    Have a nice weekend
    
    Jean
    

re: 264.140 by Jean

�    I am not foolish enough to say that every thing english is bad, why do
�    they?
    
    Jean,
    
    Who are the they?  There may be a small minority who say that
    everything french is bad (old english proverb: empty vessels make most
    noise) but it is not the majority.
    
    I am unilingual english and I watch french TV, even though I can't
    understand much of it.  Not much french TV admitted but some.  And I 
    don't believe that I'm alone in this (am I?).
    
    What is needed is some active "valuing differences" not taking firm
    stands.
    
    Salut,
    	Bob

    Jean,
    
    You are being overly optimistic about the human condition if you think
    more than a very few people will learn a language to get access to the
    associated culture.
    Far more are motivated by practical or economic need. What was _your_
    original motivation for learning English?
    Now clearly, someone who has no French is in no position to make
    critical comment on French culture. But the tone of your remarks is
    one of cultural snobbery. "I am better than you are because I am
    bilingual" seems very similar to "I am better than you are because I
    like Beethoven as well as/instead of Michael Jackson."
    
    Tony

    My first motivation was to find out what my parents were saying behind
    my back, spelling words stopped being efficient past the first grade. 
    The second one was to find out why they (my parents) were laughing so
    much at Jack Benny's show.  The third was to raise my average score in
    class (english was easier than calculus) and the last was to get a job,
    because without english, in 1969, I could not get one altough an
    anglophone (unilingual) could.
    
    I am NOT saying that I am better than anyone else because I know both
    "official" languages, to me english is a tool that enables me to
    communicate with other people who can't speak french, it also enables
    me to understand what is going on in the big cultural magnet (the US).
    
    Every time I travel to a spanish speaking country, I keep telling
    myself that I should learn the language and I only add a few words to
    my basic knowledge of that language, I guess this is mental lazyness
    and my excuses are probably the same as the english people who don't
    learn french but (big BUT) the exposure to spanish is not on my
    doorstep, I would have to find the time to go to spanish classes, get
    cable TV to get the community chanels...not quite the same as spending
    your ENTIRE life in the second biggest french city in the world and not
    knowing enough to get directions (at least I can do THAT in spanish)!
    
    Jean
    

    You gave the two main reasons why Anglophones don't often learn 
    French ...
    
    1) The major cultural magnet to the south ... (not that it's a
       particularly good culture to be magnetised to, but it's EASY).
       The CRTC is fighting all the time to keep Canadian content in
       Canadian broadcasting -- that applies to English as well as
       French programming.
    
    2) Laziness ... with that great cultural magnet to the south, it's
       far easier to learn some Americanism than it is to learn French
       -- both are on our doorstep.
    
    As to learning to get directions ... remember that the differences
    between English and French compared with French and Spanish are
    enormous.  Because they are both so heavily Latinate, the similarities
    make Spanish far easier to learn than an Anglo learning French (or
    Spanish).  ( Go to Majorca in Spain ... it is the holiday spot for
    English people who "want to go abroad" ... they go there, eat English
    food, do English things, talk in English and so on ... you'd hardly
    believe you were in Spain!)
    
    One other factor ...
    
    I know some French ... probably enough to get by, with a lot of
    patience from those I'm talking to ... but I have a near zero
    confidence level ... so I'm afraid when talking to a Francophone,
    I'll use English and hope that the person I'm talking to does too.
    I went to Luxembourg many years ago, and spoke my best school-boy
    French and got answered in English.  I went to Montreal a year ago
    and went to a restaurant and asked for my meal in French, to have
    the waitress rattle off some question in French.  I asked her to
    repeat a little more slowly (in French) and she replied in English
    saying it was far easier if she spoke English.  That's how to blow
    your confidence, already low, down to zero.
    
    
    As an aside ...
    Also, have you ever heard what some English speaking people do to
    the pronounciation of European Languages ... put simply, they have
    cloth ears, because they just cannot hear the different sounds.  I'll
    never forget one poor fellow trying to learn the German word for
    International ... Internazionale  ... He could not hear the z
    pronounced as 'ts' and the concept pronouncing every letter was
    out of the question.
    
    
    Stuart

    I know that a LOT of people do not have the patience and time
    (especially a waitress at noon) to let you or someone else practice
    your french, but outside of Montr�al, people will give you a chance.
    
    Don't think that learning english is easier for us than for you to
    learn french, I know a lot of people that can't speak english any
    better than you can speak french (probably, because I don't know your
    level)
    
    As to radio and TV, french and english (Canadian) are completely
    different, in Montr�al, there are three "broadcasters" SRC (Soci�t�
    Radio Canada) CFTM and Quatre Saison (CIBV) the last two private, all
    have original programming and fill the "holes" with imported or
    translated series.  All the english networks have to offer is original
    US series or some that are so close to US TV that it is hard to find
    out where they hail from (Night Heat and ENG are good examples).  The
    only exception to this are the public affairs programming on CBC (like
    the fifth estate, the Nature of things...)
    
    Jean
    

    I understand that a waitress, especially if she also speaks fluent 
    English, would probably rather use English than wait for me to struggle
    in French, and I have no complaint over that, but as I said, it does
    nothing for one's confidence.
    
    I wasn't trying to suggest that learning English is easy ... from what
    I can see, it must be one of the worlds most difficult to speak
    correctly ... although you can speak it very badly and still be understood!
    My comparison was only meant to Spanish.
    
    Learning a language seems to hinge on having the time, the inclination
    and the necessity.  As you have discovered it is probably more
    necessary for a Francophone in North America to learn English than the
    other way around, and with the US to the south, that will not change.
    
    It's a shame but the English do have a poor track record about learning
    French ... but there is no necessity, so it all hinges on inclination.
    
    I have been known to watch French TV ... I actually have Francophone
    relatives in Hull ... and that gives me slightly higher inclination
    than most I suppose.
    
    I think for the most part we see eye to eye, except that I am less
    afraid of cultural change than you ... but then that is easy for me
    when I am a part of the more prevalent culture on the continent ...
    so I do understand even if I don't totally agree with your prognosis.
    
    Stuart

    Let me expand this line a bit from my previous reply, lest it is 
    misunderstood ...
    
   " ... although you can speak it very badly and still be understood!"
    
    
    English can be spoke very badly and the meaning can still be conveyed,
    and on the other hand it can be spoken very well and be totally
    misunderstood.
    
    Just to be clear, this was not a comment about the way anyone here
    uses English!
    
    Stuar

>I'll never forget one poor fellow trying to learn the German word for
>International ... Internazionale  ... He could not hear the z
>pronounced as 'ts' and the concept pronouncing every letter was
>out of the question.

Actually, the German word for "international" is "international", but you
are correct about the "ts" sound.  For some reason that sound is desperately
hard for some people.  I was trying to get my wife to pronounce "Zucker" (sugar)
correctly.  We'd start with "rat soup", progress to "ratsoup" and on to
"ra-tsoup" and then try to go to just "tsoup" but it always came out "zoup".

/john

    I don't know why Jean forgot to mention the fourth french station:
    Radio-Qu�bec, but beside that, I believe he is a good reflection of the
    way most of us, Qu�b�cois, feel about the language issue in Canada.
    I don't feel as comfortable as he is in expressing intimate feelings in
    english, so I will let him continue the excellent work he is doing.
    However, I felt he should know that a lot of us are supporting him in
    his crusade. It shows he has not given up on Canada yet. I would also
    like to thank Stuart for being so patient and controlling the dialogue
    in such a way that there has not been any blood effusion. You mentioned
    that you were not 100% canadian, surely your universal culture is being 
    a great asset in this sort of discussion. They are many reasons for being 
    frustrated in Qu�bec, when you are a french canadian. The worst is the scorn
    that english canadians that live in Qu�bec show for the french people.
    Like someone was saying earlier, how can someone who, deliberately
    decided to live in Montr�al for over 40 years, not understand at least
    some basic french? If you decide to live somewhere, it should be
    because you like the area where you are going to establish yourself and
    you should try to blend into the culture of the place that welcomed
    you. It should all come naturally and be like a personnal challenge,
    a way to adapt to a new environment to the fullest, a rewarding and
    fulfilling experience that will enhance your culture... If I was to 
    decide to establish myself in Italy, it would be because, to me, it 
    would be a better place to live (otherwise, why move there?) and I 
    would learn Italian and my kids would go to an italian school and 
    the whole family would blend in with the italian culture. I would 
    not try to create my own italian Qu�bec in Italy! It is, in my opinion, 
    this sort of unrespectful attitudes that caused the feud between french and
    english people leading to controversial legislations. People only react
    that dramatically when they feel threatened. I am for one convinced
    that if the attitude of english canadians would have been different,
    the Qu�bec culture would have probably evolved naturally towards an
    integration, because they would have felt welcomed and accepted and
    because it would have been the logical way of evolving in the american
    continent. Just tell your teenager daughter that you FORBID her to see
    THAT boy and she will run and marry him! 
    
    I don't even expect that other canadian provinces will make any special 
    effort in learning french and if I visit a canadian province, I will 
    naturally comply to their protocol and speak their language the best I can.
    Although, provinces should supply services that are needed where the
    need justifies the expense and/or when it is for the good of the community.
    Because they are things like culture and mind aperture that are not
    accountable in dollars...
    
    But there is this barrier that exists, and a lot of it was created by the 
    medias only showing the negative aspects like riots etc..., this attitude 
    that the canadians have towards french canadians that makes me feel uneasy
    when I travel outside Qu�bec in Canada. Funny that I never felt this
    anywhere I traveled in the U.S.: it almost feels just like home!
    
    I am an optimistic and I definetely believe that there is hope for
    both cultures to survive harmoniously and the key to success resides
    in a little bit of respect for each others. We are living in times
    where the Wall has fallen, and where a lot of nations are finally
    reaching freedom. Our problems should be a lot easier to resolve!
    
    
    Michel.
    

re: 264.152 by Michel.

�    If I was to 
�    decide to establish myself in Italy, it would be because, to me, it 
�    would be a better place to live (otherwise, why move there?) and I 
�    would learn Italian and my kids would go to an italian school and 
�    the whole family would blend in with the italian culture. I would 
�    not try to create my own italian Qu�bec in Italy! 
    
    Change Italy to Florida.  I believe that there is a little Qu�bec in 
    Florida.
    
    If one was to move to Italy then learning italian would be a matter of
    survival not choice.  To function effectively in that society one would
    have to become involved with local language and custom.
    
    This is not true in Montr�al where french would be useful but is not
    necessary to function day-to-day.  Qu�bec City on the other hand ...
    
    I am one of those people who finds a second language difficult to
    learn.  I will therefore not learn another language unless I have to. 
    I have lived in Ottawa for nine years since coming from England and I
    still haven't learnt french.  I keep meaning to try but it never gets
    high enough on my list of priorities.
    
    Bob
    

    About le "petit Qu�bec" in Florida:
    
    Hey we are not perfect, but this "ghetto" was established for people
    (like you) who can't/won't learn another language, it is a business
    catering to those people.  The ones going there don't go there to
    colonize the state of Florida as the english had done to India and
    other NUMEROUS countries in which they had their clubs, restaurants,
    institutions, schools, hospitals... catering ONLY to them.  It is this
    very attitude that spawned the french english rivalry in Qu�bec, the
    chiefs were always english and the indians french (or REAL indians).
    
    To live in Montr�al without french is possible, but as I said
    previously, it shows a clear lack of respect for the MAJORITY of the
    population.
    
    Jean
     

re: Note 264.154 by Jean 

�    Hey we are not perfect, but this "ghetto" was established for people
�    (like you) who can't/won't learn another language, it is a business
     ==========
�    catering to those people.  
    
    Jean, you do not know me so, and please don't make assumptions about
    me.
    
    I can and will speak a second language, but only if there is a need to.
    ==============
    
    I worked for a german company and lived in Germany for a while.  My 
    german was good enough at one time to be mistaken for a local.
    
    My point was (and is) that I have no *need* to speak french. I can
    therefore easily find ways to spend my time and money which do not
    involve learning french.  If I were to move to Qu�bec, then that would
    be different.
    
    The problem with the current set of issues is that they are emotive. 
    This tends to make both sides insist that the other be perfect, and to
    jump on the flaws when they are not.
    
    Bob

       An interruption from a recent visitor: what is an 'allophone'?  We
       saw this term several times in both the French and English press,
       and couldn't figure out if it refers to an Anglophone who has
       learned French, any non-Francophone, or what.  
       
       --Mr Topaz

    I too have seen this, and cannot remember what it referred to, but
    with my tongue in my cheek and a smile on my face (and absolutely
    no offense intended here) it was a the name someone just learning
    French gave to the Telephone, for everytime a French person answers
    the phone you hear the phrase 
    
    "Oui, allo ?"
    
    Hence the allophone ...
    
    
    Stuart

An allophone is a variant sound of a specific sound from a specific
language.



A device that automatically plays the chorus from Handel's 'Messiah'.



A manufacturing device for facilitating the insertion of aloe juice
into bottles of hair shampoo.

    An allophone is any standard telephone supplied by Northern Telecom
    which, when it rings, is answered by an individual using the
    non-language specific 'allo'.
    				8-)
    
    Bob

>       An interruption from a recent visitor: what is an 'allophone'?  We
>       saw this term several times in both the French and English press,

"Allo-" is greek for "other", thus this refers to someone who speaks something
other than or in addition to the language in question.

Compare "allotropie" n.f. (gr. allos, autre, et tropos, maini�re d'�tre).
Propriet� de certains corps, comme le carbone, le phosphore, de se pr�senter
sous plusieurs formes ayant des propri�t�s physiques diff�rentes.

/john

       Thanks, John, and thanks also to other notes which help,
       admittedly anecdotally, to add some insight to the issue.
       
       We couldn't help but notice a significant difference in the
       approach that the French and English media took to the Qu�bec/
       Meech Lake issue: Le Soleil and La Presse and Radio Canada
       reported the events in the framework of an impending political
       crisis---it seemed to me similar in many ways to the mood of the
       media when Nixon threatened not to hand over the Watergate tapes
       in 1974, and politically aware people were concerned with the
       constitutional implications of the Executive branch defying the
       Judicial branch. The English media that we saw (The Gazette and
       the all-news TV network), on the other hand, seemed to
       characterize the problem as an ephemeral issue that was really one
       of political personalities---what a jerk Mulroney was for bringing
       the separatist Bouchard into the cabinet, Bourassa might be hoist
       by his own petard, the coalition in Manitoba is shaky---and a
       surprising number of columns in The Gazette tried to poke fun at
       thye whole situation. 
       
       It seemed to both my wife and me that the issues of Lake Meech and
       the continued inclusion of Qu�bec in the Dominion are perceived to
       be significantly more important and long-lasting issues by most
       French-speaking Qu�becers than by most other people in Canada.
       
       --Mr Topaz

    Re. Note 264.128 by RTL::HINXMAN
    
    >> What John really means is "So far in the U.S. the anglophones
    >> have been able to beat everyone into submission."
    
     How true !  

.154
>    To live in Montr�al without french is possible, but as I said
>    previously, it shows a clear lack of respect for the MAJORITY of the
>    population.
    
.162
    >> What John really means is "So far in the U.S. the anglophones
    >> have been able to beat everyone into submission."
    
If you don't speak French in Montreal, it's disrespect for the majority.
But if you don't speak English in the U.S., it's OK, we are expected to
value your differences (sic).

Cliff

    As an English speaking EX-Quebecker, I have to look back and wonder
    where the HELL all of this Language crap came from. 
    From my earliest rememberances, some of my best friends were French.
    We were all bilingual. We were too young to be political or to think
    that either of us were being discriminated against.
    Stop signs were in TWO languages. Store signs were in TWO languages.
    There were French schools and English schools. There were even Catholic
    schools and Protestant schools. Everyone loved Les Habs. If the game
    wasn't on the English channel, you watched it on the French Channel.
    I called Marc "frog" and he called me "bloke". And we never took it
    as insulting. 
    That is what made Quebec so special.
    
    Then when I was in 7th grade (I happened to be in a French Immersion
    program at the time), The FLQ crisis happened. The Rose brothers.
    Martial Law. DeGaulle yelling "vivre the Quebec Libre". And suddenly,
    (or so it seemed to my friends and I), we were all political. 
    The French seemed to suddenly realize that they had been treated like 
    second class citizens (or at least that's what that fat lady on channel
    2 was telling us....sorry, I cant remember her name).  
    It came as quite a shock to all of us, French and English.
    
    I didn't grow up rich. Probably lower(much lower) middle class. So did
    my friends.  We went to differant schools, then came home and played
    together. Our parents were fabulous friends. 
    No body told us there were problems between us until it hit the papers.
    
    And now. My parents still live there. I am trying real hard to get them
    the *HELL* out. But my Dad..he'd old, and "they'll have to carry me out
    dead". So be it. As for the seperatists...sad to say they screwed up a
    great thing.  I can kind of equate them to the womens libbers who
    insist that if you're a housewife then you ARE unhappy and you SHOULD
    do something about it and that you HAVE been taken advantage of. 
    
    I'm sorry, but I never saw it. I never saw the french language in
    danger. I never saw opression. I never saw any of it. There were alot
    of opressed EVERYBODIES. 
    Bill 101 Pixxes me off to the max. How unconstitutional can you get?
    As for the seperation? Go ahead. It will be everyones' loss...but if
    the French think that it will help them regain their 'lost identity', fine.
    
    But one rather interesting thing. I ALSO remember when the Canadian $$
    was HIGHER than the US dollar. I remember when prices were reasonable.
    I remember all of this changing right around the time we started being
    reminded how opressed French Quebec is. 
    Do we think that things will get better if Quebec is left under the
    ever wise leadership of the Bourassa's of the province? 
    Sure wish my Dad wasn't so stubborn.
    
    my 2cents (was more like $5...but I get that way).
    
    -c-
                         
    

I wish I was as eloquent as .164

When I lived in Quebec, I didn't speak French, but I never thought that French
was dying.  There's nothing wrong with people speaking French in Quebec, but
to MAKE everyone speak French?  That sounds a bit tolitarian, eh?  I also don't
see a problem with the rest of Canada accepting the fact that there are
French-speaking people in Canada and Canada is a bilingual people.  Too bad
all these people see only their own point of view and aren't willing to 
negotiate some middle ground.  I was born in Quebec and quite proud of it; I'm
happy to have been in that bilingual environment.

A Habs fan in Bruins country. 

RE .164

Cathy,

In the southern states, before the civil rights activities,
blacks and whites lived in separate but equal harmony. All your
experience might have been under the tone of your environment.

I grew up in Vancouver in the 50's. Subtle racial laws were
overturned by liberals; reacted to by conservatives. A law that
forbid asians to own land was such a law.

As a child, you may not have been involved in these subtle
restrictions.

cal hoe

    re .166
    
    you're right. As a child, I WAS not *politically aware*. 
    
    But I DID notice that my best friend's family, A French speaking
    family, owned an ESSO gas station. They OWNED their home, and he had
    all of the latest greatest toys. AND***they had a car***. We, on the 
    other hand, rented our flat, took the bus, and ate alot of baloney
    sandwiches. 
    I never looked at who had more or less because who spoke which
    language. I don't think our financial status was the result of anything more
    than the luck of the draw. 
    They were not 'restricted' or oppressed. Nor were we. 
    
    Honestly speaking....I think that, like alot of other things, SOME
    people will always feel that they're not getting an equal shot. 
    They look at their own lot in life, see that it doesn't equal someone
    elses, and blame it on oppression. 
    I guess I didn't have anyone to blame for anything. 
    
    If the French speaking Canadians would look around, they'd see that
    for the most part, they are no differant from anyone else in the
    country. They can get an education, they can buy food, they can get
    jobs....
    
    Sorry. I don't buy the 'restricted' or 'oppressed' thing.  I listen to
    it here in the States all of the time. *I* am not as rich as *YOU* so
    therefore it is *YOUR* fault. 
    
    More thoughts:
    I was thinking last night, that the really SAD thing is that we are all
    hung up on the words that come out of our mouths. 
    Culture? What is the differance between French speaking Canadians and
    English speaking Canadians.  THE WORDS THAT COME OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS. 
    I'm sorry. I never saw it. I STILL don't see it. The food we eat?
    Not in Quebec. I ate tourtieres as much as the next guy. Religion? Naw.
    There are English Catholics too. God is God when you're Catholic. 
    
    So I really still don't understand. Guess I'd like some examples from
    those of you out there who WERE oppressed.  If you work for DEC, then
    you at least had a good education if nothing else.  
    
    I must say, I used to be so proud of Quebec. Now I'm only embarrased.
    
    cathy
    
    

    There were many such restrictive laws that have, thank goodness
    disappeared as the years have gone by, but there are probably
    still a good many on the books that just haven't been enforced
    because of their inequities.
    
    I have an aunt who comes from a Franco-Manitoban family, where
    when she was a child at school, it was illegal (not just forbidden)
    to use French at school.  There were and are a lot of repressive
    laws and ideas ... the laws can sometimes be dealt with although
    there is always someone willing to impose laws on others for "their
    own good" or out of fear of things they don't understand.
    
    All the inequities of the past are unfortunately used as weapons
    today, rather than being mended and put to rest.  I am saddened
    that such oppression happens/ed in a land noted for freedom, but
    we are only in the latter part of this century, with the dramatic
    increase in communication, realizing that there are still so many
    laws that impinge upon basic civil rights.  Mind you, this applies
    to most of the so-called free countries of the world.
    
    Stuart

    re .168
    
    then it would seem that the *simple* solution would be to wipe out ANY
    laws on the books that are discriminatory, oppressive, predjudice, or
    against the constitution. Wouldn't that make alot more sense than
    splitting up the country?
    
    I don't think that ANYONE in CANADA cares to see oppressive laws on the
    books.  This is NOT 1800s America. 
    
    Maybe you're right. The Quebec I grew up in was the Quebec that I hold
    near and dear.  Maybe it is a naiive, child-eyed perspective. 
    
    But it WAS great growing up in the surroundings that I did.  
    
    BY THE WAY:  Does anyone remember when the Canadian Flag replaced the
    Union Jack? And when we started singing OH Canada instead of God Save 
    The Queen in school? 
    Seems like there was alot of National Pride then. 
    Even in Quebec.
    
    -c-

    The problem is that getting rid of such laws is never as easy as it
    seems, for they got put there for a reason ... to attempt to get rid
    of some of the laws sometimes will only serve to fan some long hidden
    flames.  Take for example the attempt to clear up the mess on abortion
    legsilation.
    
    Unfortunately, laws don't change people's feelings, and there are now
    a lot of ill feelings in the country.  Not just along the language
    lines ... there are many provinces or groups that have had raw deals
    in recent history ... any attempt to remedy one injustice seems to
    dig out another two groups who have suffered an injustice some time
    in Canadian history who want their situations put right immediately.
    
    Part of my childhood was spent growing up here in Canada and part was
    spent growing up in England.  One major thing I remember when comparing
    the two countries was the strong sense of civic and national pride we
    held in Canada.  It didn't exist in England ... there was no national
    anthem sung every day in school ... there was no flag flying on the
    school ... there wasn't the sense of national pride.
    
    On returning to Canada 9 years ago, I don't see the same pride ...
    I see so much doubt about the value of being Canadian from within
    Canada by Canadians.
    
    This was also noticeable in the US of recent years, and one thing that
    Ronald Reagan (whatever you might think of his politics) attempted to do, 
    and was moderately successful at was the restorattion of some national 
    pride in the US.
    
    All through my school years in Canada (1956-1966) I remember singing
    both "Oh Canada" and "God Save the Queen".  Flags (I cannot remember
    the date, but it was in one of the trivia notes in this file when the
    Maple Leaf was adopted) until the new flag were both the Union Jack
    and the Canadian Red Ensign ... Union Jack upper left and the Canadian
    Coat of Arms in the red field.
    
    Stuart

    re,  .166
    
    " In the southern states, before the civil rights activities,
      blacks and whites lived in seperate but equal harmony."
    
      Are you possibly referring to the southern states in the
      USA ?  If so, I can't believe you weren't flamed for 
      that statement.   Must not be many students of American
      history in this notes file.   They certainly lived
      seperately, but equal ???  Never.  Not then.  Maybe not even today.

    .171
    
    you're right. There was no "equal" and very little "harmony", at least
    not in the south. The North wasn't quite so bad, but they were the ones
    pushing for the Bill of Rights and Freedom for all races.
    
    I guess we as Canadians haven't progressed that far yet.
    Or so it's being made to sound.
     
    
    

    re: .70
    
    You mention that when you grew up there was no sense of national
    pride in England but that there was in Canada.
    
    Of the countries that I know reasonably well only the "new" countries
    demonstrate their pride.  England has it's pride, but as an old
    established country it is secure in and of itself and therefore does
    not need to demonstrate it in the same way.
    
    Bob

    re .173
    
    Bob, you are to some extent very right, but then that also goes with
    the Brits historical reservedness.  But, my  point here is that
    Canadians seem to have lost some of their sense of pride for their
    land over the years ... not that they are not showing it.

< Note 264.171 by ELWOOD::MONDOU >
                        -< .166  "Equal Harmony "  ?? >-

Perhaps tongue in cheek statement, no? Definitely, the blacks or
metis were not equal. The history books of that era says so,
however. Even to the point that the FBI thought thought the
"agitators" were communist agents. J Edgar Hoover did hsi best to
destroy Martin Luther King's reputation.

But that is not the topic here. The topic is the hidden
inequality.

Cathy,

The laws passed and renounced that held the franch speakers back
did not take place over night. Along with the attitude of people,
it takes time befor the next generation will realize their
liberties are restored.

cal

    An interesting thought (at least to me!).
    WHen I was in high school a FEW years ago (back in 74 actually), we
    went to a provincial track meet in Pierrefonds (SP??sorry!).
    It was at the local high school there. It was unlike anything I'd
    ever seen. 
    The gymnasium had three FULL basketball courts, and two volleyball
    courts, all set up, with seating room between each one. Surrounding
    them was a 5 lane track. In addition there was a gymnastics complex
    with all of the latest equipment, and a weight room, also fully
    equipped. 
    My friends and I wandered the halls in amazement looking at all of the
    beautiful features. It was really spectacular. 
    It was also a "French" school. 
    
    I still haven't heard/seen examples of the Oppression that occured,
    except for the example of the aunt in Manitoba. That was interesting.
    I have never lived there though, so I can't really comment. 
    
    I have yet to see an 'oppressed' area that is stricly French. Ville
    Emard housed as many "poor" 'Anglais as Francais.  Same with Lachine
    and Verdun and Lasalle (which really wasn't that bad a place). 
    We were ALL EQUALLY not-rich.
    
    Please, I really WOULD like more real live examples of the inequities
    that french speaking Canadians have undergone in Quebec.
    
    -c-

cathy,

that is a few years back; my experience with the beginnings of
bi-lingualism was back in 1961, I was in the French imersion
lessons (classes were taught in French, written and oral replies
were in French). We had a fine system that helped financed end of
year party (a nickle for each english that we could not prove in
was not in the French dictionary.

well, I can still read but can't speak to get me out of hot
water.

cal

    
    Cal I'm not THAT old!
    
    And my folks have been Bi-lingual forEVER. And THEY are OLD!! :-)
    
    cathy
    
    anybody out there from Verdun?????????????????????????????????????
    I'm homesick....

      RE.264.177 by CSC32::PITT
    
    >> Please I really would like real live examples of the inequities that
    >> french speaking Canadians have undergone..
    
    
    You don't REMEMBER ?  Perhaps you've not read it (previously). Here are
     :samples: not EXAMPLES, mind you.
    
    
    AOSWS::$1$DUA3:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CANADA.NOTE;1 >>>
                  -< CANADA - The True North Strong and Free >-
================================================================================
Note 264.58                    Language Inequality                     58 of 178
BTOVT::BOATENG_K "Keine freien proben !"             59 lines   2-MAR-1990 00:02
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Note 51 by TROA02::MISCHNEIDER

>> To compare Toronto (& MonTcouver ?) in the same breath as Pretoria
>>   ranks as the ultimate extrapolation..Agree with .49  go read a book.

Yes Sir ! --> ISBN: 0-87901-134-3  Unit 3 page 286 by Dr.Ian Robertson
an Anglo-South_African immigrant currently residing in Cambridge, Mass.)

[ Like many modern societies, Canada includes racial and ethnic minorities
  most notably the French-Canadian and the indigenous Indian populations.
  French Canadians who form a majority in the province of Quebec, have long 
  endured prejudice and discrimination from the dominant anglophones. 
  In recent years the national govt has given legal protection to the French
  Canadians. Yet the status of French-Canadians and other minorities such as
  the Inuit remains a source of controversy and even tension. ]
                           [ A "prophecy" ?]
     
              True or Non-False ?
    
    
     
             -----------------
From  -> ISBN: 0-442-23460-0: Minorities in...the Modern World.
Gladys Meyer, Rutgers Univ, & Charles Marden Columbia, Univ.) page 26.
CANADA:
[ Of greatest current interest, however to *the student of inter-people
  relations (Me!) has been the development in Canada of what can be considered
  as "derived minority situation" specially the relation of the Frncophones
  to the dominant Anglophones...  It is clear that there is a strong feeling
  of being superordinate on the part of the anglophones. Whether this 
  bi-ethnic division is a true dominant-minority situation but certainly
  not in the whole nation, it has been and still continues to be a type of
  interpeople division. This is a distinct national problem periodically 
  creating crises. (Hopefully ?) --> Time, with its inevitable acculturation
  between the two ethnic groups, may resolve the problem without the necessity
  of the Francophones giving up the sub-communal entity in order to achieve
  coordinate status..]  (c) 1973 edition.
   
          The following is from a textbook.  My terminal does not
          compose the accent aigu (') grave (`) cedile (,) etc.. So
          fill in the blanks.                                     
          
PARCE QUE....     
             "Je me souviens" est la divise officielle de la province de Quebec 
et meme aujourd'hui beaucoup de Quebecois n'ont pas oublie' que leur province a
tres` longtemps ete sous la domination britannique. "Quebec libre?" est le cri 
de ralliement du movement Franco-Canadienne.   
Pour les Quebecois il est important de preserver et de proteger la culture et
L'HERITAGE  Quebec/francais. Il y a aussi le probleme de la mobilite' sociale
et de l'acces des francophones aux travaux bien payes qui ont longtemps ete 
reserves aux anglophones. Dans un livre intitule' "Les negres blanc d'Amerique"
Pierre Vallieres a compare' la situation des Quebecois a` celle des 
noirs americains. 
D'autres pensent que revendique conduira a` un isolement culturel et economique 
qui etre pas pleasant dans un mode de plus en plus interdependant. Ils pensent
que les lois qui ont 'etabli le francais comme la seule langue officielle de la
province sont responsables du depart de certaines enterprises commerciales et d'
un certain nombre d'anglophones. C'est vrais que la solution ne sera pas facile!
Mais "Je me souviens" - toujours  dit le Quebecois !

          (From page 273-274 ISBN 0-03-015601-7 (student edition)
           Jarvis, Bonin, Corbin, Birkbichler -
     
___ari => FaZari.             

    Re. Note 264.177 by CSC32::PITT
    
    >> Please, I really would like real live examples of the inequities
    >> that french speaking Canadians have undergone ..
                  [and undergoing..?]
                       
    Free samples...--->
    
              <<< KAOSWS::$1$DUA3:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CANADA.NOTE;1 >>>
                  -< CANADA - The True North Strong and Free >-
================================================================================
Note 264.59                    Language Inequality                     59 of 179
BTOVT::BOATENG_K "Keine freien proben !"             32 lines   2-MAR-1990 00:42
                -<  pourriez-vous m'epliquer cela ? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Note 264.7 by VAOU02::HALLIDAY 

>> ..All other languages are dying out << Action >>

Montreal Gazette:

[ Consider next the ACTIONS (re. 264.56) of the Sechelt District School 
  Board north of Vancouver B.C. The board has decided to end French Immersion
  for children in Grades 1 to 3, and the local Chapter of Alliance for the...
  of Engklish is claiming credit for the decision (Victory ?)
  
 The board's chairman says that none of the members opposes bilingualism ,
 BUT they simply feel this is a better use of resources. ... Too many
 anti-bilingualism campaigners get away with BLAND declarations that they
 aren't anti-French, they're just against having it "imoposed" on them.
 The TRUTH is that not only are these anti-French gangs against having
 French "forced down their throat'  they REALLy DON'T want people to have
 free choice to absorb some for themselves - or have their children do so.
 Deep down they feel that people have no right to acquire this "foreign"
 language.  WE thank the Sun=shine Coast's chapter for revealing this so
 openly ]  Article by Norman Webster, Mont. Gazette Feb. 24 1990 page b-3)

   I'am not anti-semite BUT.." Or pro-apartheid and Alabama bigots saying
  "We are not racists BUT.."  Or Ted Bundy saying,"I'am not a sexist-misogynist
     BUt.."  Yep ! 
                     
     FaZari.

    Re. Note 264.177 by CSC32::PITT
    
    >> Please, I really would like real live examples of the inequities
    >> that french speaking Canadians have undergone..
    
      [ and still undergoing..?]
    
    Free Samples..
    
              <<< KAOSWS::$1$DUA3:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CANADA.NOTE;1 >>>
                  -< CANADA - The True North Strong and Free >-
================================================================================
Note 264.69                    Language Inequality                     69 of 180
BTOVT::BOATENG_K "Keine freien proben !"            132 lines   2-MAR-1990 23:35
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ANTILOCUTION:  A headline from The Montreal Gazette issue of March 4th 1989.

     "ENGLISH-LANGUAGE NEWSPAPERS SHOW ANTI-FRENCH BIAS:" 
 
 Some might ask, "what does that got to do with Antilocution & the French?"

          A non-dictionary definition of ANTILOCUTION follows:                                                    
             ---------------------------------------------
 What people actually do in relation to groups they hate is not always directly 
 related to what they say about such hated groups(publicly). Sometimes the hater
 forgets himself and let it slip unconsciously -> The Freudian Slip .
 It is true that any negative attitude tends to somehow, somewhere, to express
 itself in action. Few people keep their antipathies entirely to themselves.
 The more INTENSE the ATTITUDE, the more likely it is to result in frequent
 degrading bashing of the hated group.  ( This should explain why some people
 are more prone to bash the French and other minorities than others.) 

 ANTILOCUTION:
               Most people who have prejudices talk about their biases with
like-minded bigotted friends. Occasionally they may express their antagonism
freely with strangers. But many people never go beyond this degree of 
antipathetic action. 

AVERSION:
          If the prejudice is MORE INTENSE, it leads the individual to avoid 
          the hated group.  This means that if the hated group is being 
          sadistically ridiculed, bashed, degraded, dumped on,...the aversive
          bigot will be oblivious to the pain of the hated group.

An example: It was reported in the Feb.24th 1990 issue of the Gazette
                   that a Francophone employee in Sault Ste Marie who previously
                   ate lunch with fellow workers who happen to be anglohones
                   was all of a sudden being shuned by those he thought were his
                   friends.  Why ?  It's got to be the antilocution factor.
                   Don't you think so ? BTW: It happened after the unilingual 
                   vote.


            Example: From the Nov. 11th 1989 issue of Mont/Gazette.
            ORILLA, ONT. (CP)
            Opponents of bilingualism disrupted a debate on bilingualism
            at a local high school. A quote from  the "book" of
            Alliance for the Preservation (of whatever) entitled:
            "Bilingualism Today, French Tomorrow" written by a bigot named
             J.V. Andrews was described by a Francophone who was familiar
             with the contents as, "This is the vilest racist, trash you ever
             want to read.."  Why ? Becuase parts of the book make derogatory
             remarks  about Francophones -> quoted: "Quebec families are...xxx ..
             .xxx..it merely helped to speed up.xxx...delivery to ...taverns"  
              This is the kind of books that supporters of Alliance for Engilsh
              groups read and champion as their cause. ( Speaking of causes )
             
[ The following is from page 15 of ISBN 0-201-00179-9: Gordon W. Allport ]

While many people would never move from antilocution to hostile persecution
of the hated group....still IT IS TRUE that activity on one level makes 
transition to a more intense level easier. 
It was Hitler's  antilocution  that led <MOST> Germans to avoid their
Jewish neighbors and erstwhile friends. This preparation made it easier 
to enact the Nurnberg laws of discrimination which in turn made the subsequent
<physical attacks> seem natural.]
                                    
    

 Some Free Samples of The Francophone Experience in Anglophone Canada:

From, June 28th 1989 issue of the M/Gazette an article culled from the
Southam News by Mike Trickey )

...the day to day discrimination <faced by Francophones> is..seen in a post
   office (as an example) Where the English speakin clerk in Pickering, Ont.
   hopes to improve the Francophone customer's English by shouting ever louder
   at him. Or it's at the downtown Toronto bank where the English speaking  
   teller informs a Francophone customer who has written her cheque in French
    that, "You Are Now In Canada" - translated to mean <parlez blanc?>
   What is this ? A bigotted sarcastic speech ? Or a sadistic sense of humor ? 
    
    You tell me ! Comment vivre dans un monde lilingue quand les voisins 
                  Chantent "Parlez blanc" ?
                  Comment chanter sa vie 
                  Lorque le rock & roll est interdit ?
                  Ca vaut-tu la peine,
                  Le rock and roll des juenes,
                  Ca vaut-tu la piene,
                  Rock and roule.
 
  FaZari. 

    Re. Note 264.164 by CSC32::PITT
    
    >> ..I have to look back and wonder where the HELL all this Language
    >> crap came from..
    
    "You yourself have said it". This "crap comes from the hellish minds and
     hearts of hellish dominants.." 
    
    Re.164
    >> From my earliest rememberances, some of my best friends were French..
        
              Exactly! It happens all the time!
    
    *Currently my best friends are anglo-American women.
    So, does it mean I can give an objective lecture about anglo-American   
    women ? Why not ?  
    
    FaZari.

    I remember going for a job interview at RCA in 1969, the test was all
    in english and for doing electronics work they had english litterature
    questions in the test, if that test was not designed to weed out french
    applicants, what was?
    
    When I was hired at Burrough's, they had unilingual anglophones hired
    at the same time getting $10 per week more than I was getting and they
    had the same level of expertise that I had (read none at the time) why?
    
    When I would go to Eaton's (or Morgan's = The Bay now), it was 
    IMPOSSIBLE to find a french speaking clerk, I won't even mention what
    language the manager spoke.
    
    When 90% of the population is francophone, is that not
    under-representation, just like the blacks in the US, who needed laws
    to give them a fair chance, now they are doing OK, maybee a bit too
    well for some people because now they feel their positions being
    threatened by this rising class of Americans.
    
    
    
    Jean
    
    Proverb: There is none so blind as one who will not look.
    
    (or something like that)
    

    RE: .184
    
    Same here, when I joined Sperry Univac (now Unisys) of Montr�al, in 74, 
    all the interview was in english. If you could not speak the "white man's" 
    language, as one guy told me there, you just can't get a job. It is
    ironic to see that this company will probably have to learn japanese
    soon, at the rate they are being bought |-). Worst, when I signed on
    the dotted line (after my "yes" and "no" answers seemed to
    have been given in the proper sequence) I had no idea what I was
    signing. The same day, one of the most brilliant student from my 
    electronic class was refused the job (field service engineer)
    because he could not speak "enough" english, but a young english
    canadian wich knew nothing about electronic (had flunk grade 12) got
    the same job as mine, at the same salary!?!?! For a long time, in
    Qu�bec, the belief was: "If you speak english, you will make it".
    Even today, it is hard in some places, even in Montr�al, to be served
    in french in some stores or even restaurants. Mind you, some of these
    people do understand but just refuse to. You see, laws are never passed
    "before" a problem develops. Laws are created after sad events, to
    prevent the such events to reoccur. Laws are not even there to correct
    problems and that is why it always create other ones. They are all
    patches, like VMS patches, and until a next release of the operating
    system, will remain patches, with their pros and cons.
    
    Michel.

    This is soooooo weird....
    
    When *I* was living in Quebec, it was sooooo hard to find people who
    spoke English...
    
    I had to take two transit buses (in the first grade) to get to my
    school, even though there was a <French> school down the block.
    
    	B.

    Michel,

    	Anglophone Canadians don't understand what it is like to be
    discriminated against because of their language.
    	If the tables had been turned and big business in Ontario was run
    by Francophones and less qualified French guy got hired over the more
    qualified English guy, then there would be some understanding.
    	It is unfortunate that the reality is; legislation is the only way
    to change the inequities. Just like legislation is the only way to
    clean up the environment even though we all know that pollution is
    killing us.

    Glenn

>    It is unfortunate that the reality is; legislation is the only way
>    to change the inequities. 
    
    That's fine as long as you don't swap one inequity for another.
    
    

    
    ok. Thanks you for all the examples. The 'first hand' accounts I will
    respect and value, but the ones written by newspaper columnests and the
    like seem like so much propaganda to me.
    
    I was not BLIND to 'prejudice'. I think any co��mments implying that are
    unfair and sound so much like "you see, they are all alike"....
    YOU ARE THEY. We are ALL they. Like it or not.
    
    Funny you should talk about what it's like going for a job and not 
    getting  because of the language you speak. 
    
    How would you like to go for a job and not get it because you're a
    Woman?  Or get paid $10 less cause you're a WOMAN?
    Same thing isn't it???????? I can relate to this kind of thing.
    
    BUT** Women can't go off and form their own country and disregard
    everything and everyone else around tm. 
    Blacks can't go off, take a couple of States and make their own
    country.  Should the Gays in San Francisco separate?? 
    What will it solve?
    
    Will you spend the rest of your lives on an Island? 
    No.
    You stay. You educate. You do the best you can. You make progress. 
    
    I'm tired of the whining.  I listened to it in the Military when I
    was stationed in Newfoundland with a couple of separatists. 
    All I heard was whining about how wrongly French Speaking Canadians
    were, but THEY couldn't tell me when THEY were wronged. They had just
    been filled with the same propaganda. 
    Like I said, it's the old "You MUST be UNHAPPY". 
    
    I'm not saying that there are not cases of prejudice. But there were
    just as many French clerks in Simpsons who WOULD NOT speak English.
    You TOO are blind. I did not notice the English who would not speak
    French, and YOU did not notice the French who would not speak English.
    Who is blind? No one.  
    
    
    I'm not trying to start any kind of violent argument here. 
    I have nothing against you. 
    If anything, I feel sorry that you feel the way you do about OUR
    Country. I feel sorry that we can't get TOGETHER and solve the BIGGER
    issues. But bottom line, we're fighting over what words come out of our
    mouths.....and we call the IRISH foolish. 
    
    I call Quebec my home; I will never give up my Canadian citizenship
    even though I will probably not move back. 
    I'm sorry you feel persecuted, but I wish French speaking Canadians
    would step back, take a few deep breaths and say "what the hell"...
    
    -c- 

cathy,

I, too, call Canada my home. I am an alien resident here and
prefer that status (in the USA).

Tomorrow is Dominion Day, a day that I pull out the Canadian flag
and fly it with pride. On July 4th, I fly the American flag for
my spouse and son.

cal

    Only generals and deserters fight wars from afar, I am still here and
    still fighting MY battle on the front lines.  
    
    There is a big difference between CAN NOT and WILL NOT.  I WILL NOT
    speak english to a store clerk and if THEY CAN NOT speak french, I will
    take my business elsewhere after telling them why in the language they
    DO understand!  This and my voting power are the weapons that I have
    and I do use them.  However, I am not impolite and I will give
    directions in english if asked, because I assume the person asking may
    be a tourist from another country or Canada.
    
    PS Cathy, what language did you and your french freinds speak when you
    were together?  if it's the same as the english freinds I had (*) then
    it must be english.
    
    (*) I said had because after november 15 1976, THEY must have felt
    betrayed and stopped returning my calls and would not come to my home. 
    Looking back, I had to enter their world, they could not enter mine. 
    That is to say they could not relate or talk about anything that had
    french remotely connected to it, they were living in an english ghetto,
    where all their dealings were done in english.
    
    Jean
    

< Note 264.192 by MQOFS::DESROSIERS "Lets procrastinate....tomorrow" >


>>>Only generals and deserters fight wars from afar, I am still here and
    still fighting MY battle on the front lines.  

Jean,

Why must it be a battle? It's only a battle if you perceive me to
be your enemy.

Also, why are you not replying in French? I read French but not
fluent enough to think in French. English, being a second
language to me, has become easier since my mind translates my
native Chinese to Canadian-English.

calvin

    

>Why must it be a battle? It's only a battle if you perceive me to
>be your enemy.
    
    Here! Here!
    
    I see this both verbally and by attitude all over the place.  Anyone
    would think we were still back in the days of Wolfe and Montcalm on
    les plaines d'Abraham.  It's a matter of outlook.  I don't think of
    trying to discuss these issues as a battle ... nor do I think of
    working for a united Canada as a battle.  I look at it as a pleasure
    to do for my country.
    
    As the saying goes, "You can attract more flies with honey than a
    fly-swatter" ...
    
    The more I look at this, I see less of a problem of language and
    cultural differences and more of a problem of attitudes.  Because
    attitude and emotion are so inter-linked, escalation of negative
    attitudes runs rampant.
    
    Stuart
    
    

    >>>Only Generals and deserters fight wars from afar, I am still here
    and still fighting MY battle on the front lines.
    
    It also appears that you are the only one who thinks there is a battle.
    
    Pardon me...you WILL NOT speak Engligh to a store clerk? 
    PARDON ME??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
    
    I will not comment further on that.
    BUT I HAVE TO SPEAK FRENCH TO THAT SAME CLERK????????????????????
    
    ok...
    
    to answer your question, when I was with my French friends, which was
    mostly always, USUALLY I spoke in English, they spoke in French. It
    was a perfectly good relationship in that we each learned the others
    language. It felt perfectly natural. Sometimes we would all speak in
    French and sometimes in English.
    
    It was NEVER an issue. We NEVER made anything out of it. Live and Let
    live, you know?? Even as CHILDREN we realized that the words we spoke
    were no big deal.
    
     
    
    ok..now I'll comment on the fact that you WILL NOT SPEAK ENGLISH to a
    store clerk...
    
    WHO THE HXXX DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?.????????????????????????????????
    Why should the English bend over backwards for you but you will not
    bend. you obviously speak English well. What are you trying to prove
    by your stubborness???????????????
    I DO NOT understand your attitude.
    
    This is EXACTLY like the WHITE FOLKS who would NOT ride the same bus 
    as a BLACK person after the law stopped the discrimination. They 
    would rather walk than be civil and fair to EVERYONE.
    
    And if a store clerk WILL NOT speak English, I should speak French to
    them, right??? Well I do. Even though I know that their "je ne parle
    pas d'Anglais" is a STUPID STUBBORN ACT put on by a self centered store
    clerk who thinks that the whole damned world revolves around her. 
    I WILL SPEAK FRENCH to them regardless because I CAN and because
    I WILL NTO GET INTO SUCH A STUPID BATTLE OVER WHAT DAMNED WORDS I 
    CHOOSE TO SPEAK.
    
    It all sounds so petty to me. 
    How disappointing. 
    
    cathy
    
    
       

    Pardon, ce n'est pas ridicule de demander d'�tre servi dans sa propre
    langue lorsqu'on paye, et je comprends tr�s bien ton d�sir de vouloir
    la pareille.  Mais pourquois donc ce d�sir ne peut qu'�tre r�alis�
    SEULEMENT au Qu�bec dans un pays qui se targue d'�tre BILINGUE???
    A Montr�al 85% de la population est francophone, au Qu�bec c'est 96% de
    la population qui parle fran�ais, il est donc aussi "normal" de tomber
    sur une personne qui ne parle PAS l'anglais que de tomber sur une
    personne qui ne parle PAS le fran�ais dans le reste du Canada
    ou moind de 20% de la population parle fran�ais et si on ne compte pas
    le Qu�bec moins de 5%!
    
    J'ai d� me battre pour la reconnaissance du fran�ais autant que les
    noirs Am�ricais ont d� le faire pour pouvoir parler aux blancs sans
    avoir a dire "massa" (master).   Consid�riez vous les blancs du sud des
    Etats Unis comme les ennemis des noirs?   Consid�rez vous maintenant
    les Africains du Sud comme les ennemis des noirs?  Vous �tes vous
    appitoy�s sur le sort des fermiers de cotton de l'Alabama ?  Verserez
    vous des larmes quand les mines de diamants de l'Afrique du Sud seront
    sous contr�le noir??  Alors que ces "pauvres" anglais du Qu�bec sont si
    maltrait�s, pensez-y, DEVOIR parler fran�ais quelle abomination.
    
    Jean
    
    Le plus triste dans cette r�ponse, c'est que 90% des lecteurs n'y
    comprendrons pas un mot!
    
    

    re -1
    
    Jean,
    
    I didn't say that it was 'ridiculous' to expect to be served in the
    language of your country, WHATEVER the language is. I said that I
    thought it was PETTY to DEMAND to be served in that language if you
    can speak either language anyways. 
    EVERY ENGLISH language school in PQ teaches French. EVERY English
    speaking student MUST speak and WRITE French (and all those verb
    tenses!) in order to graduate. I do not know if the criteria is the
    same in French language schools, I am simply saying that implying that
    (sorry, I forgot the percentage you used) XX Anglais are bilingual
    in PQ, CANNOT be correct. My parents are BOTH Bilingual. This is not
    by being taught it in school (because back in their day not alot people
    got to stay in school very long), but by osmosis (?). They are quite
    fluent in French. I DO NOT KNOW ANY Anglais in PQ who cannot speak 
    Francais. (But you're right. I don't KNOW every English speaking
    Quebecker!) 
    
    What I have seen for a LONG time was the English making the attempt to
    speak the French (when the HAD to). But I did not see the opposite 
    happening.  FROM MY EXPERIENCE I saw alot of cases where the French
    clerk WOULD NOT speak English even when she saw the Anglais struggling
    with French for the same reason that you will not speak English to
    an English clerk. 
    
    When I came across the border from Boston to PQ last winter, I was
    greeted by the RUDEST Francais I had ever met.  She ASSUMED I was a
    STUPID-ENGLISH ONLY-AMERICAN when I asked her in English (since it IS
    my native language) if she was going to give me the exchange rate.
    When she started babbling off in Francais about how they don't GIVE the
    exchange rate and wouldn't to anyone who would not speak French, I
    think I kinda surprised her when I blasted back in as good a French as
    SHE spoke that I CAN speak FRENCH and if she wasn't so DAMNED IGNORANT
    SHE COULD LEARN TO SPEAK 2 LANGUAGES TOO. 
    
    ...trying to remember what else you said...
    
    The Blacks in America? 
    They are struggling.
    They are making great headway.
    They are EQUAL UNDER THE LAW.
    There will ALWAYS be biggots. ... in both directions. 
    
    Those folks in the southern states that you speak of?
    There are ALOT of biggots down there. There are ALOT of biggots
    everywhere. 
    But DON'T you understand?
    YOU are NOT a stupid person. YOU are already way ahead of the game by
    being fluent in BOTH languages of your country. 
    Will it improve things by ACTING like one of those people in the SOUTH?
    Biggotry is a sign of lack of education. Lack of understanding of the
    peoples you are biggoted against. Hatred of their customs or the things
    they do.
    
    Our customs (yours and mine) are NOT differant. Our cultures are so
    intertwined that WE ARE YOU and YOU ARE US.  You have less in common
    with France than you do with Toronto, and I have NOTHING in common
    with Britain. The Culture that you speak of is QUEBEC/CANADIAN culture.
    
    But sorry. I am off the subject. 
    
    It is sad to think that only 10% of the people reading your note will
    understand it. But how many of them do you think will IGNORE it or
    pooh pooh it because it is French? If you have something to say,
    people will try to understand you. Instead of faulting them for not
    yet being as bilingual as you are, why don't you applaud the efforts
    that MOST of them are making in that direction? 
    
    I DID NOT become bilingual out of necessity. I did it because there
    were people that I wanted to communicate with. They made it worthwhile
    for me. 
    
    Diamond mines in Africa? Cotton fields in Alabama?
    Who are you comparing to WHOM in this point? Are you saying that the
    English speaking Quebecers (the minority) are ruling the French
    speaking Quebeckers (the majority).  If that is you point, I don't agree.
    ALl you have to do is go to the Epicerie to see WHO runs the province
    and WHO makes the laws. 
    And explain Trudeau. (Ok so you may not have LIKED him, but he WAS
    French).
    
    Well, sorry. I'm off on a tangent. yakyakyak.  
    I lost my train of thought when I got called away several times....:-)
    
    We are not so differant. 
    Maybe if we looked at what we have in COMMON instead of the thing that
    seems to be pushing us apart, Canada could STAY Canada. 
    
    cathy
    

    $set flame/simmer
    
    :-)
    
    It'd be kinda nice if certain people would *encourage* other people 
    to do something neat, like learn another language.  If people are
    forced to do something, they'll rebel. (did I already say that?)
    
    I didn't think about learning French after moving down to the states,
    but I have a very nice friend here who speaks fluent French and was 
    trying to teach a bit of it to me.  It became enjoyable to learn
    French.  I was looking for a french class for this fall (because I'm
    sick of taking computer classes).  One of the main reasons that I never
    learned Chinese was because everyone was insisting that I learn it; no
    one ever made it *fun* (except for an old girlfriend, but that's another
    story).
    
    By the way, Cathy, I was still learning French when I wagoing to
    school in Quebec so I was far from fluent (I was only in grade 2 then).
    Back then, my family never encountered any hostility because we
    couldn't speak fluent French.  I guess people were alot nicer and more
    tolerant back then than they are now.  There still are people in Quebec
    who appeared tolerant of us Anglais; when I went up in '88, there were
    alot of vendors during the Carnaval who were very helpful and patient
    with me even though I didn't know French.  I'd hate to think that these
    nice people were the exception rather than the rule.
    
    And Cathy, with regard to your 264.197, thank you.  I wanted to say all
    that but I had a hard time putting together the right words.
    
    Ben

>   I think I covered most of it...:-) >-

>I am simply saying that implying that (sorry, I forgot the percentage you
>used) XX Anglais are bilingual in PQ, CANNOT be correct.

Um, where in one of Jean's recent replies did he say anything about what
percentage of Anglais are bilingual in PQ.

/john

Jean,

I am amongst the 10% that reads French. Your point is well taken;
though your comparsions to the blacks in South Africa and
Southern USA are reaching. A year ago in May, I met some
relatives of ours in Montreal, we were treated to a family
banquet in a Chinese resturant where the owner/matre de was multi
lingual to a point where we were greeted in French, Mandrin, then
Cantonese. My point is that the attitude of this man was that he
was there to do business and he adapted to the cuisine and
language of Montreal.

Stuart Brook's reply was that if it's attitudes that you want to
change, you might want to do it in a more tactful manner. Yet, I
also was in the position to react (the same way you did) when I
found people who patronized me when they first met me.

Ben Wong, I removed all my interaction with your notes in the
What's_Quebec note thinking that it was out of place. One of your
replies said that Chinese must adapt to the ways of the Oxidental
society; your reply surely points to the contrary. My grand
parents taught me that if the anglo-phones treat you with
disrespect, remember your heritage and your culture. What I am
trying to tell you is the same thing, remember the experience of
your culture and learn from their experience.

Flaming against franco-phones is, in essence, showing disrespect
for your elders. I don't care if you flame at me; I do care if
you misrepresent the Chinese heritage.

Calvin Hoe

    Les r�ponses pr�c�dent exhibent la probl�me avec clart�.  C'est un
    sujet des �sp�rances raisonables.  Ce n'est pas raisonable �sp�rer
    un commis Qu�becois parler l'anglais sur demande.  C'est raisonable
    expliquer, s'il est vrai, que vous ne parlez pas bien le fran�ais
    et demander service en anglais ... mais s'il (elle) ne parle pas l'anglais,
    ce n'est pas un situation d�raisonables, pour vous �tes dans un
    pays �tranger.  Comme l'expression en anglais "When in Rome do as
    the Romans do ... if you can".
    
    Il y a aussi une probl�me d'�motion ici.  Quand l'un montre une
    attitude d'�motion l'autre repond avec plus d'�motion et le sujet
    de discours est perdu au milieu.  Discussion logique et raisonable
    est perdu.  Quel dommage!  C'est manifestement �videmment par ici
    dans ce fichier ce que se passe et pourquoi il-y-a beaucoup de tension
    entre les Qu�becois et les anglophones.
    
    Il-y-a besoin pour plus de tol�rance et moins d' �motion.  Il-y-a
    besoin r�aliser que quelques �sp�rances l'un de l'autre peut-�tre
    demandes immod�r�es.  Aussi, c'est important perdre les fautes pass�s
    et aussi laisser les emotions dehors.
    
    Et maintenant, en conclusion, je voudrais dire que composer ce r�ponse
    en francais est un plaisir, mais c'est tr�s dificile, et je pr�fere
    composer les r�ponses en anglais a ce moment.  S'il y a beaucoup d'
    erreurs de langue, j'offre mes apologies.
    
    A bientot
    
    Stuart

>    un commis Qu�becois parler l'anglais sur demande.  C'est raisonable
                                          ^^^ ^^^^^^^
    
    J'ai decouvert une erreur.
    
    
    
    un commis Qu�becois parler l'anglais sur revendication.  ...
    
    
    In English ... I meant on *demand* rather than on asking! 
    
    Stuart

    Another small analogy: DIGITAL is in the business of selling computers,
    we will and do sell and service machines running VMS and UNIX, we may
    not like UNIX, but we still "talk" that language because our customers
    demand it, if we did not, they would go to other vendors.
    
    If I go in a store where they don't have anyone speaking my language I
    will go to another one where they do, it's that simple, it is my way of
    telling them (unilinguals) that it pays to be at least bi-lingual.  I
    don't want them to listen to F�lix Leclerc or Gilles Vigneault, just to
    be able to answer my querries in my language.  You ALL do the same
    thing, if service is bad in a particular store you don't go back there,
    well here the language in which you get that service is part of the
    package, so no need for the "who the h*** are you" type of accusation.
    
    And why is it a MUST to get service in english OR french in Qu�bec when
    I can't expect the same in Toronto or Calgary or.... we are
    "officially" a bi-lingual country are we not?
    
    Jean
    

    It's all a matter of what we class as "officially bilingual".  If it
    was intended that most Canadians become bilingual in Canada's official
    languages, then I think that whoever opted for that interpretation is
    sadly out to lunch.  It's just downright impractical.
    
    I believe what officially bilingual originally meant was that Federal
    and Provincial government services be available across the country in
    English or French.  Now, that doesn't have to mean rewriting laws
    in English and French, but it does mean that if a Francophone requests
    a government service in Toronto in French, he should be able to be
    serviced, and similarly for an Anglophone in Chicoutimi.  It may not
    always be easy to do but that is the aim.
    
    That does not mean that services in stores be bilingual ... although
    it's easier if they do.  It does not mean that John Q. Public be
    bilingual.
    
    It does mean that John Q. Public should be aware and willing to accept
    this bilingual reality as a part of living in Canada, and not bemoan
    its costs and so on.
    
    There are going to be ongoing injustices as a part of that reality,
    like someone somewhere is not going to be able to get service in one
    or the other language at some time or other ...  It's not always
    easy to provide that kind of service.  There are going to be bilingual
    requirements for jobs and some people may get burned in the process,
    but care by management should eliminate this problem, even if it
    means the requirement for translators in certain departments of
    government.
    
    Business will find a bilingual approach obviously advantageous when
    doing business across the country, and hence there will be a
    requirement for increased public bilingualism.
    
    BUT IT WILL NOT HAPPEN OVERNIGHT.  It will take generations to achieve
    greater bilingualism, and there will still be areas where it will not
    happen, and there will still be complainers.  Rome wasn't built in a
    day.
    
    It's like the so-called Greening of Canada ... it will take time to
    get Canadians environmentally conscious.  Fortunately people can see
    some of the benefits quickly.  Regretably people don't see the benefits
    of bilingualism until it hits them in the face.
    
    If I go to a store where they don't speak my language, I am not so
    quick to leave ... I treat it as a learning experience (usually).
    Unless of course, the product I want is widely available in stores
    where they would speak my language.
    
    Frankly, I really don't see that there should be such a chasm between
    us, but I can see how it happens and I can see why it happens but I
    wish I could see a simple way to bridge it.
    
    Stuart
    

I just spoke to my father, a retired civil service and a Vet of
Hong Kong, Burma and India. He tells me that he was just recently
turned down court interpetation jobs because he does not speak
French (mind you, this job is volunterary and fees goes to the
Chinese Community in Ottawa). Dad has been doing this since 1978
in Vancouver and in Ottawa when they moved there April 1989.

Dad speaks several dialects of Chinese and several of Asian
languages so it's ironic that he cannot volunteer any more. He
said that he is planning to learn French but his fluency might
take a while.

calvin

BTW, if you watched tv last sunday in Ottawa, you may have caught
dad talking to Queen Elizabeth and shaking hands with the PM. He
said that the Queen commented on his Burma service medal.

I am driving to Montreal for two weeks, so I come here to seek 
information.  Well, I also discovered some interesting debate on
the French-Anglo relation in this notesfile.  Well, for what it is worth...

I think the French speaking Quebec has a legitimate concern over the 
future of French in Canada.  From their point of view, the French language
is gradually disappearing from the North American continent.  It used to
be that some of the Atlantic provinces were French speaking, but now
they have all become English speaking.  The Quebecois look at the situation 
and find the trend alarming.  They feel they have to do something to
make sure that their French heritage will endure.  I don't think mandating
French through legislation is the answer as someone said it previously:
"If you force people to learn something, they will rebel."  However,
the Quebecios see no other alternatives that could reverse the trend.

In U.S., although there is no declared official language, English is the
de facto language.  Most people coming to U.S. learn to speak English
and the next generation usually become English speaking only and become
part of the mainstream America (how many Schmidts in U.S. speak German?).
Of course, many aspects of the culture heritage brought by the immigrants 
are preserved and to a certain degree influenced the mainstream American 
culture for the better (German beer for example :-)).  The result is a 
healthy dynamic American culture.  This is the way successful
immigrants are made (the American dream).  This has worked wonderfully
in U.S.

But the French Canadians do not think themselves to be immigrants (like
the Chinese or Germans who came to North America during the last century).
Indeed, theirs is as native as the English culture in Canada.
While it is true that many aspects of French culture will survive and
even manage to influence and change the English culture of Canada, the
French culture, as it is today, will suffer irreparable damage if French
is no longer the spoken language in Quebec or the rest of Canada.  This
is exactly the trend the French speaking Canadians fear, and it is difficult 
to convince them otherwise with the history of the Atlantic provinces.

re .200,

>My grand
>parents taught me that if the anglo-phones treat you with
>disrespect, remember your heritage and your culture. What I am
>trying to tell you is the same thing, remember the experience of
>your culture and learn from their experience.

I agree that we should remember our heritage, but I find the above passage
a bit arrogant and condescending.

>Flaming against franco-phones is, in essence, showing disrespect
>for your elders. I don't care if you flame at me; I do care if
>you misrepresent the Chinese heritage.

I think flaming anyone is a bad idea, but how does "flaming" relate to
"showing disrespect for your elders" is beyond me.  Also, I am curious 
as to why you choose to question the culture heritage of a fellow ethnic 
Chinese (namely Ben Wong) when so many other people are "flaming" in this 
note.  The ethnic Chinese is not a monolithic group.  Our experience is 
diverse.  I may or may not agree with his view, but Ben Wong's experience is as 
representative of the Chinese culture as yours.  Let's not get into a "who
represents Chinese" debate here.

Eugene

< Note 264.206 by HPSTEK::XIA "In my beginning is my end." >

>>>In U.S., although there is no declared official language, English is the
de facto language.

Not true, in some of the western states, English is the declared
language of government. Colorado is one of those states.
Partly to do with the Quebec experience and the rise of
spanish-speaking immigrants.

The French and English are the dominant settlers of early Canada;
their languages, however, are not the native language. It is law
that Canada is bi-lingual in the language of government and some
businesses.

>>>>The result is a healthy dynamic American culture.

Canadians do not like to be compared to Americans.

re .200,

>>>I agree that we should remember our heritage, but I find the above passage
a bit arrogant and condescending.

Yes, it is arrogrant of me to tell a fellow Chinese-Canadian that
there were hard, prejudice within the lives of Chinese-Canadians
who helped build the railroads of Canada and America. I was,
indeed reacting to a statement by Ben who calls the franco-phone
issue bogus; because he never saw problems growing up in Canada.

>>>The ethnic Chinese is not a monolithic group.  Our experience is 
diverse.

Absolutely right, Eugene. We know it but to many westerners, we
represent one in culture. Between us, you may represent the
immigrant, I, the immigrant child who grew up in North America
and Ben, the first generation born in Canada. Yet, we are all
Chinese to the westerners.

calvin

I've been read-only for several months in these language-related topics trying
to understand what is perceived to be the problem.

I recall reading some notes from a person who lives in the Ottawa area, speaks
German after spending time in Germany, but doesn't speak French or want to.
Strikes me as being a bit strange as I reckon that one would sieze the 
opportunity in a case like that, instead of shunning it.

Lately, Cathy, you wrote the following which doesn't leave me any closer to
finding out what the problem really is:

>>    language of your country, WHATEVER the language is. I said that I
>>    thought it was PETTY to DEMAND to be served in that language if you
>>    can speak either language anyways. 

Therefore, you think it is petty of Jean to demand to be served in his 
language when he is in Qu�bec.

>>    When I came across the border from Boston to PQ last winter, I was
>>    greeted by the RUDEST Francais I had ever met.  She ASSUMED I was a
>>    STUPID-ENGLISH ONLY-AMERICAN when I asked her in English (since it IS
>>    my native language) if she was going to give me the exchange rate.

However, it is not petty of you to start off your conversation with the
douani�re in your native language even when you are entering Qu�bec and you
are able to speak French just as well as her.

I am starting to better understand why some feel that Qu�bec should get a
"some pigs are more equal than other" status.

Maybe throwing out a couple of questions would help:

Would you speak french to the Qu�bec douaniers if it would help keep the
country together?

If you lived in Rome would you not learn at least some Italian?

If you knew (know?) how to speak Italian and went to Rome, would you start 
talking in English or Italian?

Hope this is not interpreted as a holier-than-thou effort:  I am just trying
to understand the situation.

rick ellis

< Note 264.206 by HPSTEK::XIA "In my beginning is my end." >

>In U.S., although there is no declared official language, English is the
>de facto language.  Most people coming to U.S. learn to speak English
>and the next generation usually become English speaking only and become
>part of the mainstream America (how many Schmidts in U.S. speak German?).

Eugene,

I did some more research. There are 22 states that has adopted
American-English as the official language of government.
Officially, it is to save money since minorities have the right
to ballot information in their own language. Un-oficially, it's a
phobia of any-lingualism, especially with the huge incresase of
spanish-speaking legal and illegal immigrants.

I do know that City of Vancouver (Canada) supply ballot information
in English, Chinese, Viet-Namese, French and some other languages that I
do not know of.

calvin

    .208
    
    I would ALWAYS attempt to being a conversation in my NATIVE language.
    I assume that most everyone else would too. I had no idea if the clerk
    was French or English. I spoke to her in my comfortable language, and
    was more than willing to adjust as necessary. It was her response that
    provoked my anger. It was NOT that she would not speak in English to
    me, it was because ***she assumed I could NOT speak French and proceded
    to tell me how she would not give the exchange rate to anyone who cold
    not speak French". She of course said this in French, because I was
    a 'dumb American tourist who couldn't understand her". 
    If she had simply responded that she could not undertand English, then
    I would have adjusted and asked for the STINKING exchange rate in
    French.
    
    In Jeans case, i believe that he said that he REFUSED to adjust to
    English because the clerk could not (would not perhaps?) speak in 
    French. 
    
    There is a differance.
    I hope that this clears it up.
    
    I'm having a hard enough time getting anything across in this note
    as it is...
    
    
    :-)
    still smiling anyhow.....
    
    cathy
    

Are you _sure_ that's what she said in French?  After all, you did seem to
think that Jean had said something about what percentage of Qu�bec Anglais
are bilingual, ...

    
    you're right John...and since you're ALWAYS so DAMNED RIGHT....I think
    I'll just beg out of this note...
    
    you really do get on a person's nerves...no matter what stinking
    language they're tryng to converse in.
    
    :-(  later.

    Pat,
    		Have you got a cold?

>    I would ALWAYS attempt to being a conversation in my NATIVE language.
>    I assume that most everyone else would too. I had no idea if the clerk
>    was French or English. I spoke to her in my comfortable language, and
>    was more than willing to adjust as necessary. 
    
    When I go to Qu�bec I normally attempt to start a conversation in
    French, even though I do not speak it at all well.  If I have problems
    then I will ask if the other person can speak English.  When I went
    to Austria many years ago, and I do not speak German, I learned a
    few words to recognise them, and the phrase to admit that I cannot
    speak German and ask if the other person speaks English.
    
    If you go to an area where another language is prevalent, then it is
    only fair to at at least learn the phrase that asks "Do you speak
    English?" instead of using English and expecting them to understand.
    Even to use a phrase book is reasonable.
    
    Now, I know there are people who go into Qu�bec and do as you did,
    but to the Qu�becois that is like telling them that their language
    doesn't exist and that you have no respect for their language.  You
    may not have meant it that way, and in another time it may not have
    been taken that way, but that is the reality of Qu�bec today.
    
    
    > It was her response that
>    provoked my anger. It was NOT that she would not speak in English to
>    me, it was because ***she assumed I could NOT speak French and proceded
>   to tell me how she would not give the exchange rate to anyone who cold
>    not speak French". She of course said this in French, because I was
>    a 'dumb American tourist who couldn't understand her". 
    
    You definitely met somebody took the language issue to heart.  Did she
    actually call you a dumb American tourist ?
    
    Your anger is certainly indicative of what is going to break this
    country up, not pull it back together.
    
    The replies that followed Cathy's reply that I based by response on,
    are at best potentially inflamatory and at worst down right personal
    attacks and insults that have no place in notes and I think it would
    befit all parties here to remove them.  This notes file is often
    filled with trivialities and in-jokes, but remember that notes is
    a reflection of Digital and this notes conference in particular
    is an advertisement for Canada.  Draw what conclusions you will.
    
    Stuart
    

    Stuart,

    	Loosen your corset a little will ya?

    	If you want to see real inflammatory notes, then go into soapbox or
    world_forum. They'll chew your head off if they don't like you. If
    you're really brave and a Habs fan, go into the Boston_bruins
    conference and say something like the Habs are the greatest hockey team
    that's ever existed then sit back and prepare to be tarred and
    feathered! 8^)

    Glenn

    I know what soapbox is like ... but this isn't soapbox.  I can enjoy
    a bit of fun as much as the next person, but I don't call back-talk
    like "Good riddance" fun, and I don't call it polite either.  If you
    chose to think that of someone, then that's fine, but if you want to 
    broadcast it to the world, then it's not.
    
    Hey, you want to talk about bravery wherever I am ... I'm a Leaf fan!
    
    :-)
    
    Stuart

    
    
    Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...i like the Leafs as well..and the Argo's
    and the Blue Jay's....now that's what you call suicide living
    up here..:-)
    

    Borda;
    
      Your right....Shhhhhhhhh.  In any language you care to put it,
    cheering for the Leafs is as silly as banging your head against the
    wall.
    
      I know, wait till this year!!!

    Re. by  CSC32::PITT
    
    >>...rude response .9. A tooth for a tooth is not always correct..
    
    Wrong !
            
                When a tooth falls out it should be replaced with a tooth.
                Imagine replacing a tooth with a nail.
    
    
    >> I do not know any Anglais in PQ who cannot speak Francais.. 
    
    What are you trying to say ?  That since all the anglos you know
    speak Francais it means 99.999% of the PQ anglos also speak French ?
    
    Just this past Saturday I was invited to dinner at a friends house
    in Brossard (a suburb of Montreal). This person is an anglophone who
    has been married to a Francophone for nearly fourteen years yet he does
    not speak French. Their two kids 7 and 9 however speak both languages
    fluently. At the same table was a married couple (friends of the family
    I was visiting)
    
    The male is an anglophone who has lived in Montreal for so many years.
    In fact he did his masters, Ph.D, MD.. all at McGill in Montreal but he
    does not speak french even though the wife who is also an MD speaks
    French fluently. 
    
    Point is: not all the anglos in PQ thaT I know speak French. 
    
    Re. 197 by CSC32::PITT
    
    >> Biggotry is a sign of lack of education >>
    
    Says who ? If higher education automatically makes individuals
    non-bigots then what about the historical fact that Josef Geobbles
    the demonic propaganda chief of  Hitler's regime had a doctorate.
    
    In a speech by Elie Wiesel, Ph.D (1986 Nobel winner for Peace 
    and a prof at Boston University) he stated that all those men who 
    gathered at a villa to formulate plans for the liquidation of
    non-aryans & les autres in Germany had Ph.Ds except five. 
           [Have you ever heard of the Wannsee Conference ?] 
     
    BTW: Dr. Elie Wiesel is a nazi death camp survivor         
    
    "You don't have to be a dumb ass to be a bigot." 
      ( Spotted on a bumper sticker in Alabama )
    
    
    FaZari.

    re: .208
    
    I'm the one who said that I used to speak german but don't speak
    french.  Not because I don't WANT to but because I don't NEED to.  
    There's a big difference.
    
    BTW, my son speaks french, although with an abysmal accent.  When he
    speaks french in Qu�bec, instead of applauding his efforts to
    appreciate them and learn their language, they always seem to switch to
    english.  (Perhaps Jean or Glenn can explain why this happens.)  He
    finds very discouraging and it puts him off even trying.  
    
    (He will not be learning any further french at school so is reading 
    french novels and watching TV so he doesn't lose the language.)
    
    Cheers,
    	Bob

    Bob,

    	I do not believe that for the most part the ones that switch to
    English are trying to make it difficult for your son to speak French.
    They hear the 'abysmal' accent and the reaction is "he's having
    difficulty, I'll help by speaking English."  If your son would then ask
    if he can work at his French, I believe they would applaud his effort.

    	It's the same here, if someone who was French started speaking
    broken English to me, my reaction would be to help that person out by
    speaking French not realising that that person my be trying to work at
    his English. You see? Not rude or impatient but trying to help.

    Does this answer your question?

    Glenn

Bob,

Sorry to have turned your word "need" into "want".  I still think that anyone
in the Ottawa-Hull area would want to be able to speak at least some of
the other language - enough to order a meal, talk to someone in a store, 
give directions, etc..  But I think I also read that you came from the UK
9 years ago - that's quite different from someone who has lived in Ottawa 
all his life and doesn't speak the other language.

re. -1

I dunno Glenn.  Since so very few non-francophones ever really get fluent
in the language, I think that some of the francophones take pleasure in
being able to say to themselves "Ha, no one can speak our great language 
properly!!".  I can't comment on the Qu�becois in particular, but certainly
the French are sometimes like that.

Otherwise, lots of people just see you struggling and switch if they're 
good enough at the other language.  Just to see people making an effort 
is what it's usually all about.

Cathy, sorry not to reply earlier, but I still think that if you want to
avoid problems (and I'm not sure that that's the case judging by some of your
emotion in this conference) you should start off in French when crossing into
Qu�bec.  Similarly, I would think it normal for a Qu�becois crossing from
Washington to BC to start off in English.

What's all the fuss about??

rick ellis

    Re "switching to english"
    
    I for one, take the time to let others practice speaking french to me,
    sometimes it is quite laborious, but I am sure they appreciate it a
    lot.  Even if I am outside Qu�bec, and some one speaks french to me I
    will too altough I don't EXPECT them to.  In Qu�bec however, I do
    expect a resident, and I classify ALL store owners and clerks as
    residents, to speak enough french to answer ALL my questions.
    
    I know a LOT of Qu�becois who want to practice THEIR english and for
    whatever reason deceide to switch to english, sometimes they think it
    is too slow, they don't understand the accent...  
    
    Jean
                                                    

    Rick,

    I cannot subscribe to the idea that Qu�becers are that spiteful. They
    are as nice and as accommodating as any other people if not more.
    
    
    Glenn

    When visiting France many years ago I found that many stores had signs
    up in the windows which said, "We understand English".  But my
    favourite store had the sign, "We understand the French you learnt at
    school".
    
    -Gerry

    
    Glenn re.  -1,

I am not surprised to see what you wrote.  Every time I make my annual
shot to Qu�bec I notice that the people will gladly speak English if you
want or at least take a fly at it.  Not only that, when they hear me 
talk, they switch to French which is understandable to a European.  For me
this is an added bonus because the Qu�becois is certainly the nicest accent
in French, but I admit that I don't understand a thing when locals talk 
amongst themselves.

The French, on the other hand, are not always so accomodating, but that's
not the subject here I guess.

rick ellis

    re: last few
    
    Problem is being 17 years old (read very egocentric) he just says "f&#%
    'em" and bitches about it.  Course he then has the wrong attitude "they
    complain that we don't speak french then don't encourage us when we
    try".  Add that to the bigotted english/french press/politicians/etc. 
    Does this sound like the beginnings of learned bigotry?
    
    On another tack, I'm pleased to read the calming of emotions that is
    taking taking place.
    
    Cheers,
    	Bob

    If Meech had passed, it would be even calmer!
    
    ;-)

         <<< Note 264.229 by POLAR::RICHARDSON "He who laughs best" >>>

>>>    If Meech had passed, it would be even calmer!

I am so glad that Meech Lake Accord DID NOT pass; it now presses
the issue that require immediate attention instead of a band-aide
solution.

calvin

    What it presses is the break up of Canada. 

    A band-aid is better than nothing when you're bleeding like Canada is,
    besides, my comment was somewhat facetious.

    Do people do whirly-twirlies in Colorado?

    The band-aid does nothing when you need a heart transplant!
    
    

< Note 264.231 by POLAR::RICHARDSON "He who laughs best" >

>>>>A band-aid is better than nothing when you're bleeding like
Canada is...

Sometimes a death means a beginning better relations. If indeed
all the hurts of the past are treated so out rageously, then the
"divorce" might be a merciful parting.

>>>Do people do whirly-twirlies in Colorado?

You bet! Right off Pikes-Peak sometimes when they miss a hair-pin
turn on the PP Hill Climb.

Are we so formal? Definitely not. Are we so serious? Nahhhhhh!

calvin

    Re. 233
    
    >>Sometimes a death means a beginning better relations. >>
    
    Is this some kind of philosophical statement about re-incarnation ?

  <<< Note 264.234 by BTOVT::BOATENG_K "Ahem!Gabh mo Leithsceal,Muinteoir!" >>>
    
    Is this some kind of philosophical statement about re-incarnation ?

Yup. As with a divorce, it settles out the property rights and
who owes what. Let each part of the feuding party bring their
case to court instead of dragging out the dirty wash, piece by
piece.

calvin

	One thing I learned in first-aid, bleeding is the last thing
	to be dealt with on a casualty.

	The first is to ensure there is a heart-beat; Canada definately
	has one of these.

	The second is breathing, I think that Canada smothering; give
	it some air Mr Politicians!

	Charlie

    I'm from Germany and I did NOT read ALL 2xx entries in here. So I first
    have to give some reasons why I comment to a thing which is primarily
    not my business (but why it is in the second run):
    
    I've been many times to Quebec (Montr�al) and I have much sympathy
    for that region, its people and the 'french cause'. That is still no
    real reason.
    
    As pointed out in here the french culture has all the reasons in the 
    world to feel threatened by the surrounding and growing (due to
    immigrants, who normally follow the 'main stream') anglo-ocean. In
    this sense arguments that in some parts there are more italian speaking
    people (or whatever) than french (so why is french the second
    language?) would set me up, too. And thus would put me in a strong
    defending attitude. Everybody should understand this. Last time I was
    over there I saw on TV some groups 'for the defense of the english
    language in Canada' kind of as a response to 'french lingual racism'.
    What a ridiculous, out-of-balance movement. It was pointed out in here
    that in Montr�al and Qu�bec there are many Universities, schools etc.
    in english.
    
    A typical example of the anglo-language attitude is the fact that you
    can find many people born and raised in Montr�al who don't speak a
    word of french. I asked myself "How is this possible?" How can someone
    be so stupid not to sense his surroundings, not to take the chance
    to learn one of the most important languages of this world the easy
    way (how stupid can parents be not to force their children)? Can
    someone name me a french Canadian in say Toronto who does not speak
    english? Incredible, but not seldom!
    
    And now it comes really to me: The same way anglos enter a store
    in Quebec and start right away to speak english just like that
    (not: "Sorry, cant speak french, could we ../), the same way they do it
    here in Germany or elsewere. Nobody argues that english is kind of an
    accepted standard, but respect for local cultures requires not to mix
    that up with "Everybody IS EXPECTED/REQUIRED to conform". See the
    difference?
    
    Finally, a personal view, the worst thing that can happen to this world
    (apart from wars, destruction of the environment), is UNICULTURE.
    Imagine you travel from Paris to Mexico-City and you can not experience
    the thrill of cultural difference. For me a horror-trip. A 'taste'
    of that is the world-wide distribution of those incredibly primitive
    TV-shows like Dallas etc. In this sense i hope that the 'cultural
    centre of gravity' of germany will shift to the east after unification,
    in every sense, just to back off a bit from the 'western uniculture'.
    
    Of course I don't want to generalize: 'Anglo' is thus used here as a
    statistical statement, having in mind that many of them are not that
    way i described here. Germans use to speak german just like that
    in neighbouring countries, too. Hate that the same way.
    
    R.

    I agree that the culural diversity is really one of the most important
    reasons for travelling. I get quite annoyed at Americans in Europe who
    have this attitude that everyone should speak English, and ask things
    like "50 francs? How much is that in real money?" Of course other
    nationalities have these traits, but being American, I tried to make  a
    conscious effort to distance myself from these types of Americans.
    
    Yes, I would *THINK* any native English speaker living in Montreal
    would at least learn a few words in French, even if it's <<Je ne parle
    pas bien francais, parlez-vous Anglais?>> It's more a matter of courtesy 
    than anything else.
    
    Tom

< Note 264.237 by GYPSC::FORST "Rainer Forst @UFC DTN 773-3222" >

>>>>A typical example of the anglo-language attitude is the fact that you
    can find many people born and raised in Montr�al who don't speak a
    word of french. I asked myself "How is this possible?" How can someone
    be so stupid not to sense his surroundings, not to take the chance
    to learn one of the most important languages of this world the easy
    way (how stupid can parents be not to force their children)?

Rainer,

I can speak to your question. I believe the attitude is
called a "provincial attitude". There are some decendents of
British colonials living in Hong Kong who thinks that it's passe
to utter a near chinese-sounding word. My late uncle is a well
known surgeon there, American and Canadian trained, was summoned
to the hospital to perform emergency on one Britisher. Of course
the staff was chinese so he started in on asking all the vitals
in chinese. The person's spouse refused to let my uncle perform
the surgery even though he is very skilled in his medical
experience. My uncle turned and asked her in english, what, then
would she have him do, watch her husband die?

calvin

    Just a side note,
    
    I am just back from my vacation in les Iles De La Madeleine (*) where a
    small percentage of the population is of English descent.  I visited an
    old country school house and was greeted by a sixtyish lady who could
    not even say that she could not speak french IN french!  you can draw
    your own conclusions as to what I think.
    
    (*) also called the Magdalen Islands by the english population.  Now
    tell me how many cities do you know of that had their names
    "translated" ? (I don't count different pronunciations).  In Qu�bec,
    this seems to be the norm by the english community, a couple of
    examples:
    
    Sept Iles	becomes Seven Islands
    Trois Rivieres = Three Rivers
    
    
    Jean
    

    I'm surprized that it is still New Orleans, not Orleens.
    But maybe that is natural to them, OrlEAns like tEA, who knows.

My "favourite" one is not French to English but I sympathize with you - 
whenever I hear a Swiss German say "Genf" instead of the beautiful "Gen�ve"
I could scream.  Same goes for Waadt instead of Vaud, Neuenburg instead of
Ne�chatel, Par-ees for Paris, etc.

BTW, Jean, surprised to hear that Parisiens would find your accent unpleasant.
I've always thought that Francophones practically everywhere find the
Canadian accent the nicest of all.  It may well be that they took you for 
someone from the North - l'accent du Midi is also sometimes similar...

rick ellis

re: .240 by Jean

    
�    (*) also called the Magdalen Islands by the english population.  Now
�    tell me how many cities do you know of that had their names
�    "translated" ? (I don't count different pronunciations).  In Qu�bec,
    
    
    That well known bastion of the english language, London, is distorted
    into Londres in french.  In Europe most cities have different names    
    depending on the language spoken.
    
    

    This is very common in Belgium. I lived on Rue d'Ecosse/Skotlaandstraat
    in Bruxelles/Brussel, used to go to soccer games near St.Giudo/Sint
    Guidon, occasionally would make train trips to Liege/Liuk,
    Anvers/Antwerpen and Gand/Ghent. A friend from Paris got lost driving
    to Antwerp, because in S. Belgiunm (French) road signs said "Anvers"
    but north of Brussels, the city was listed as Antwerpen. Perhaps the
    most glaring example of this is that there is a Flemish university, 
    one of the oldest in Europe, dating back to the Middle Ages, known as
    Leuven. Walloons would call it Lou-VAIN. To make matters worse, in the
    1960s, a French university was opened nowhere near the town of Leuven,
    and they called it <<Louvain la Neuve>>.
    
    Tom 

Of course, there is also the nasty number we English speaking folk have
done to Italian cities:

	Livorno -----> Leghorn
	Firenza -----> Florence
	Milano ------> Milan
	Napoli ------> Naples
	Roma --------> Rome
	Torino ------> Turin
	Venetia -----> Venice

But one that we didn't touch:

	Civitavecchio

Even German cities have suffered:

	Trier ------> Tr�ve
	C�ln  ------> Cologne
	M�nchen ----> Munich

    Some notes back, there was a discussion pertaining to french TV and the
    fact that anglophones were not watching.  I had the opportunity to
    experience this fact a couple of weeks ago.
    
    There is an ENOURMOUSLY popular series on CBC (french) TV, it is called
    "Les filles de Caleb" this show draws 3,000,000 (and more) people each 
    week, when you realise that there are 6,000,000 Qu�b�cois, counting
    everyone, you kinda get the picture.
    
    On the second day of the middle east war, the show was interrupted by
    the newscasters and the first thing he said was that not a single
    instant of the show would be missed and that it would continue after
    the intervention (the whole episode was REbroadcasted the following
    week because so many people complained they had missed it due to VCR
    programming).  When I mentionned this to a co-worker who is an
    anglophone, he was not even aware that such a show was even being aired
    or that so many people were watching the same program.
    
    There is none so blind as one who will not see.

    But Jean, there are many programs of incredible popularity that other
    people don't know about and these are English programs.  Sure your
    comment means something towards the point you are making, but on
    the other hand it may not be as large a statement as you believe.
    
    You probably know of Monty Python's Flying Circus ... it had incredible
    popularity in England ...  There were many people who didn't know
    about the program a year after it started!
    
    Stuart

    Look, strange women laying about in ponds, distributing swords, is no
    basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power is derived
    from a mandate from the masses, not by some farcical aquatic ceremony!

    I'M FRENCH!!! Why do think I have this outraaaaaageous accent you silly
    Kinga!
    
    Glenn

    Next thing you know, you'll be telling me that the French have a
    silly walk too!
    
    
    Stuart
    

Aaaya!  I sheeek my privates at your aunties!

A knight of Neet    

    I do not watch english TV on a regular basis, but I am at least AWARE
    that they DO exist, I can at least say this show I like and this one I
    don't, which is not the case with most english speaking residents of
    Montr�al.  The same holds true with pop/contempory music, they can
    talk about the latest hits by Whitney Houston, Wilson Phillips...but
    ask them about Marjolaine Morin, Marie Philippe or Michel Rivard and
    you get blank stares.
    
    BTW the two english signers/group mentionned are not Canadian and I
    would dare readers of this note file to try and find as many Canadian
    groups or signers as they can, and will match each name given with one
    from Qu�bec.  Local groups or signers who have not sold more than
    10,000 records are not elegible, so the local beer hall crooner is OUT.
    
    Just to start you guys,
    Alanah Miles
    Blue Rodeo
    Stompin'n Tom Connors
    Heart (do they still count? living in the USA)
    Anne Murry (I think she lives in the US too)
    

    The point is WHERE (in which environment) one is not aware of an other
    culture's media. I don't blame nobody not to know a bit about in-
    credibly popular -say - german TV-shows outside the german speaking
    area (the almost always also incredibly low quality of those shows
    all over the world is not under discussion here), but i still can't
    believe that i personally met so many anglophones in Montr�al who
    did not know about french TV and movies in this 'french environment'.
    
    Gee, i was coming over to learn/improve my french (just like Qu�bec
    better than France) the hard way for some 4 weeks and those guys live in 
    this excellent bi-cultural environment for years and years and still
    don't speak a word of french and are still not aware of the french
    media. An incredible amount of cultural ignorance, i must say.
    
    There is no justified way to point to the few ignorants on the other
    side (if such an amount of ignorance exists at all) - i'm in Montr�al
    every year since 1986 and i never ever found a french person who dared
    to ask me  "Are there really english movies in Montr�al?", a question
    i honestly was asked by an 21 year old anglophone girl born in
    Montr�al, living there since then. Replace 'english' with 'french',
    of coures.
    
    We here in central europe are experiencing such an ignorance of the
    local cultures by anglophones as well (of course, to a much smaller
    extent), but, other than the poor francophones in North America, we
    will see this 'problem' getting smaller and smaller as the years go
    by and as 'Europe' will shift to the east by including all of central
    and eastern europe. This will take some time (e.g. the trouble in the
    USSR), but it will come for sure. The 'atlantic'/english influence will
    decline as a logical consequence of those developments.
    
    All this, of course, is my general view. I personally know quite a
    number of anglophones (british, canad., and american) who do not fall
    under this description, so, no generalization meant.
    
    R.

    
    
    Hey like you forgot THE greatest Canadian performer.
    
    Namely Kim Mitchel.
    
    
    BTW  Kim  is  from  Sarnia.  The Greatest Canadian City.
    
    See topic 53 for details.
    

Seems there was a bit of a fracas last week at the Comedy Festival in
Montr�al.

A British comedian ("The funniest man in Britain") was making jokes about
having trouble with the french language while in Montr�al when a member
of the audience jumped onto the staged and punched the comedian in the face.

As the comedian left the stage, some people asked him to come back, but
the audience booed that suggestion.

    A stupid outburst of overreaction, of course, but what is the point
    in addressing single events? Zillion much more severe actions like
    that,
    regarding language/cultural differences occur all over the world every
    day.
    
    Guys like that have to be punished individually according to civil law,
    but it is far more important to think about the root-causes of such
    out-
    bursts.
    
    They have been addressed in this file, such an incident is irrelevant,
    i hope it is not intended to derive from it that english-speakers are
    an endangered species in Qu�bec ...

    
    
    But they are.