Conference kaosws::canada

    Mary Jo,
    
    Although I don't think of Toronto as the East Coast  :-)
    you could go to any of the areas you listed and have a good time.
    Are you able go to Western Canada?
    
    Glenn

    
    As this is your first trip, I personally would start with Quebec
    City.
    
    This is where it all started for Canada. It is the only walled city
    in North America. The people are marvelous. You can't experience
    the feeling or ambience anywhere else.
    
    Toronto and Montreal are big cities with everything to do, just
    like in big cities in the US. Obviously there are attractions to
    each and you would enjoy yourself I am sure.
    
    Ottawa is beautiful, especially in spring, although your time frame
    might be a little early. It is by far the quietest of the four cities
    you mention.
    
    Roger
    
    PS Don't be afraid of Quebec if you can't speak French. It is a
    tourist town and you won't have any problems.
    
    

Why not go to Vancouver British Columbia ?

Lloyd
                     <<< Note 258.2 by KAOO01::LAPLANTE >>>
                        -< Quebec is my recommendation >-

    
    As this is your first trip, I personally would start with Quebec
    City.
    
    This is where it all started for Canada. It is the only walled city
    in North America. The people are marvelous. You can't experience
    the feeling or ambience anywhere else.
    
    Toronto and Montreal are big cities with everything to do, just
    like in big cities in the US. Obviously there are attractions to
    each and you would enjoy yourself I am sure.
    
    Ottawa is beautiful, especially in spring, although your time frame
    might be a little early. It is by far the quietest of the four cities
    you mention.
    
    Roger
    
    PS Don't be afraid of Quebec if you can't speak French. It is a
    tourist town and you won't have any problems.
    
    

    For a first trip to Canada, would you suggest Vancouver over Quebec?
     
    Thank you,
    Mary Jo

    Try this one:  Base yourself in Quebec City, try an evening in Montr�al
    and an hour away from there you can do a day in Ottawa.  You can get
    the old-world charm of Quebec, the metropolitan life of Montr�al, and
    the well manicured streets of Ottawa all in one trip.
    
    You can do the same with a Toronto-Niagara Falls-Niagara-On-The-Lake
    triangle and probably get in some wine tasting to boot.
    
    For the time of year you're going the West Coast has the best climate.
    
    Kris 

    Kris,
     
    Toronto/Niagara Falls wine tasting sounds great, how can I get more
    information on this?
     
    Mary Jo
    

    What????? no mentions of the GRAND CANAL??????
    
    A convert
    

       Jean, you beat me to it but I didn't think it needed mentioning as it 
  is a hard thing to miss. The Grand Canal can be visited at any major centre
  in Canada as well as Alberta. One of the best views is from the CN Tower
  in Toronto, or Boronto as it is often refered to.
    
    Glenn

    Where is the Grand Canal?
    MJ

re .9

>           -< exit >-
>
>    Where is the Grand Canal?
>    MJ

Somewhere near the exit, I think.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can go anywhere.  I've never been to a place in Canada I didn't like, and
I've even been to Thunder Bay!    <--- not a recommendation

Exactly what _are_ the conditions of your free trip?  Quebec City is a wonderful
place, especially if you can get someone to pay your airfare (costs more from
Boston than London last time I checked so we flew to Montreal instead).
Vancouver and Victoria are great.  The monster mall in Edmonton is truly
impressive; last time we went to Edmonton we handed the car to the varlet�
at the entrance and didn't leave for two days.

Go and have fun.

/john

�Small furry animal seen swimming the Grand Canal towards T.O.

    To truly enjoy the Grand Canal, you should rent a Grand Canoe
    somewhere and spend a couple of weeks paddlin'. 
    
    The problem with canoing the Grand Canal, besides the Commercial
    traffic, is finding places to park. The average Grand Canoe is much too
    small to try to dock at a Quay, if you can find one. Then there are,
    of course the Grand Quays, which are even more inappropriate, even
    though there are 88 of them on the Grand Piano.
    
    Be that has it may, you'll still need a set of quays to properly
    navigate the Grand Canal, what with all them locks & everything.
    
    Before you come to Canada to experience the Grand Canal, don't forget
    to obtain a Visa. Most Grand Canal boutiques don't take Mastercard.
    
    Scooter

    
    I don't speak French and I found there are some inconveniences
    when I visited Quebec last summer.
    
    For example, why all the signs are in French? I can't read it.
    Montreal is certainly not a international city unless you have English
    sigh also.  Doesn't English an official language in Canada also?
    
    And some people there don't or won't speak English.
                  

    I would like to thank all of you for your suggestions, but I think 
    I have decided on Toronto/Niagara Falls.  For some reason Toronto
    stands out in my mind as a city I always wanted to see, big like
    New York, but clean.  Is this true?  Also, any advice on these
    areas would be very much appreciated.
      
    Mary Jo
    

    re: .12 if you can come understand the Quebec situation, you'll have a great
    career ahead of you in Canada as a politician.
    
    
    re: .13 Toronto area is nice, cosmopolitan, etc. It's where I live now.
    
    	The East coast has far more character and friendly people.
    
    Scooter

 RE: 12   
 >>   I don't speak French ...
    
    Great !  Billions of the earth's inhabitants do not speak Latin.
    
     
 >>  For example, why all the signs are in French?
    
    Are the signs in Rome written in Greek or Portuguese ?
    
    >> I can't read it.  
    
    Relax and don't be hard on yourself !
    Becuase no one said it was that simple like Latin.
     
   >> Montreal is certainly not a international city...
    
    Exactly ! It is a regional city like, Glasgow, Rabat, Calgary, Rio...
    
    
    >>..English an official language in Canada also?
    
    For English speaking tourists, YES ! For Greek speaking tourists, not quite!
    
    
    >> And some people there don't or won't speak English.
    
    Why should they, if  Flemmish or Esperanto is their Lingua-franca?               
    
    
    It's that simple, ya see !
    
    ...ari..

    re: .15
    
    Huh?
    
    re: Niagara
    
    There is a highway that winds through most of the better vinyards
    in Niagara.  If you check with the Inniskillen vinyard, you can
    tour the facility.  And you can get a map showing the locations
    of all the vinyards, virtually anywhere in the Niagara region.  Even
    though it doesn't look like much, Chateau des Charmes has some good
    wines, and the couple who own the place are great.
    
    Glenn

    
    RE: .13
    
    Since you've chose Toronto/Niagara Falls, I hope you realize that
    you're only a 3 hr. drive from SARNIA!!!
    
    -doug

For further information on

	S a r n i a

see note #53.

Remember, if you haven't seen Sarnia, you haven't seen....


Russ Schwartz.

    Mary Jo,
    Try to avoid Sarnia...it's Cleveland of the North.
    
    Since some of the replies re: French and Quebec are a little tongue-
    in-cheek, let me help:  a) Canada has two 'official' languages (French
    and English);  b) there are provincial as well as federal characters;
    c)  only New Brunswick is officially bi-lingual (I think Manitoba was
    supposed to be, but I don't think they could afford it);  d) Quebec's
    official language is French;  e) all other Province's have English as
    the official language;  f)  all signs in Quebec are in French (they
    have passed laws to protect their culture...interesting concept).
    
    Rule of thumb:  get both a French-Canadian's and an English-Canadian's
    point of view before forming an opinion (we love each other but we
    fight a lot).
    
    Jim.

    You have something against Cleveland, Jim?
    
    Kris

    Re - a few back (can't really be forward eh!)
    
    Why is it that ALL United Staters EXPECT anyone to
    understand/speak/write english, and put up road sings in english for
    their benefit too?
    
    Are Paris, Rome, Mexico, Rio, Moscow... international cities? are their
    road sings in english?
    
    When you visit these cities you go there for the "diff�rence", if not you
    would stay home, so when you come to Montr�al or Qu�bec, enjoy the
    difference, and if you need to go home for a few moments, there are the
    golden arches (same fare with french menus) so you will not think you
    are too far away from home.
    
    Jean
    

>        As a Christmas gift, I received a 5 day trip to anywhere I want in
>    Canada.  The time of year I can go is late March, early April.

    Maybe next year if you are GOOD Santa  will let you go somewhere nice!
    
    :^)                                              

>        As a Christmas gift, I received a 5 day trip to anywhere I want in
>    Canada.  The time of year I can go is late March, early April.



			....AND SECOND PRIZE WAS...








			A 10 day trip anywhere in Sarnia.





			...AND THIRD PRIZE WAS...










			A 10 day tour of the Grand Banal (wet suit and
			scuba outfit are not included).










8*)

Pat

    
    Are you people saying CANADA is not worth seeing??
    
    
    MJ

    Canada's a nifty country - if you can remember what street it's on.
    
    :-)

    re: .24
    
    You haven't gotten it yet - ANY country is worth seeing, and one as
    large as Canada ( 2nd largest in the world) has much more to see than
    99.9999 % of Canadians could dream of seeing.
    
    Open an Atlas, close your eyes, throw dart and pick a province - you'll
    enjoy yourself wherever it is.        
    
    Scooter

    I think you will find your possibilities endless and suggestions
    never-ending.  You can decide for yourself by obtaining literature
    from Tourism Canada on any Province/Territory, free of charge. 
    The number in Ottawa is (613) 954-3852.  Tourism Ontario is (800)
    268-3735.  I personally feel that the East coast (Quebec City or
    Halifax) is going to give you the best slice of Canadiana on a 5
    day trip.  This is not to suggest that Western Canada has any less
    to offer, it just requires a little more time.
    
    Saltwater Cowboy
    
    

613 954-3852 is not in service.

< Note 258.28 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >
<<613 954-3852 is not in service.

Oh ya, that's right!!  They're on the UIC ski team in Banff.

Thanks jean!

>    <<< Note 258.21 by MQOFS::DESROSIERS "Lets procrastinate....tomorrow" >>>
>
>    Re - a few back (can't really be forward eh!)
>    
>    Why is it that ALL United Staters EXPECT anyone to
>    understand/speak/write english, and put up road sings in english for
>    their benefit too?
     

Anyone ever been to mexico city? Our the outlying villages? Speak English? 
No way....sign language. Just try to pronounce, or even read/undersatnd the 
street names in Mexico-city.  Impossible.  They do not cater to us gringos.
But it sure is fun trying. Don't expect Canada to cater to Gringos either.

Premier Robert Borrassa (the head guy in Quebec) once said that the reason 
that all the signs were in French is that when Bruce and Harriet stepped of 
their plane from Cleveland for a Holiday in Montreal, we wouldn't want them to 
think that they were in Chicago or some place like that.  Vive la difference!

We are a unique country. with many varying cultures.  I have been down under, 
in the Far East, in Europe, all over the US, and I consider Canada to be the 
MOST beatiful (maybe making an exception for Australia).

Please dear readers do not get the impression that Canada is not worth 
visting. Our canadian contributors to this conference have a tendency to make 
"light" of things.  They like to talk about fictitious ogjects like the "Grand 
canal" which only exists in someones imagination.

Regards,

Fred

    
    To further Fred's comments one of the best posters I have ever seen
    showed a magnificent scene and had the following printed on it:
    
    		America borders on the magnificent
    
    			CANADA
    
    

    Doesn't anyone remember when the signs in Quebec where in
    ENGLISH and FRENCH ? Why doesn't that same courtesy exist
    today ? Are the French less courteous ?
    
    Lloyd (a Frenchman, unfortunately)

What I remember from my trip to Montreal in 1977 before the Partie Quebecois
had managed to put the French language laws through, was that there were a
lot of bilingual signs.

However, the main thing I noticed was that if a sign _was_ monolingual, the
one language was English.  I think we're seeing the backlash from the earlier
times when the French culture was severely suppressed in Montreal.

/john

Re: Note 258.16 by ::O'Brien

>>Huh?">>
What does the acronym "Huh?" stand for ?

RE: 258.12 and 32

There is absolutely no need to pander to anglo-speaking dominants !
Not unless one is a sadocrat(S&M) who enjoys insulting condescension.

RE: 258.33

That is a good objective observation, which is different from the subjective
feelings of the "Us & "Them" philosophers.

For Those Living In Far_Away_Distant_Lands_&_Places who are wondering about
"THe Way Things Were.." 

A Boston Globe news:

Montreal - 
           When Yves Berube returned to his hometown(Montreal) with a Ph.D in
Chemical Engineering from M.I.T (Mass. Institute of Tech.USA ), he was eager to 
make his mark in business. But he got nowhere. He tried a *dozen corporations
without success. With some companies, he couldn't even get an interview.
   The reason ? He says: "My <heritage> name, there was no room for a Quebecer."
The YEAR was 1966 and anglo-Canadians had a hold on top management of large
corporations. Although he was fluently bi-lingual (English & French) he says:
"I was just not part of the..'em"  (From Boston Globe, MA.US Oct. 26 1986)
A doctorate from MIT in chemical engineering, couldn't get a job ? What else
do you want ?
Francophones like Dr. Berube remember Rhodesia at EATONS too.
Oh Yes! They are not the only ones (some may say) because 12,000 (or more)
Japanese-Canadians were incarcerated during WW II for being "different".

BTW: The last time I called Dr. Berube's office in Montreal,('88 )I was told by 
a secretary that he had just been made the director of the European branch of
Lavalin Inc. in Brussels, Belgium. It means he did not have to starve to death.

Re: >> Mexico, Rio, etc..>>

You are right. All the signs in Rome, Italy are in Italian, just as all the
signs in Rio are in Portuguese. And the signs in Cordoba, Spain are in Spanish.
 
    Re:21 >> ....can't really be forward eh ?
    Moi, Je ne suis pas timide.. et vous ?
    
P/S The above should be viewed from an objective perspective-free from emotions.
  
___'Ari
     

    >>>  >>Huh?">>
    >>> What does the acronym "Huh?" stand for ?
       
    Huh ?  "Huh?" is not an acronym. It's a verbal expresion, in written
    form, - like "uh-huh", "uh-uh" & "eh?".
    
    >>>A doctorate from MIT in chemical engineering, couldn't get a job ? What else
    >>>do you want ?
    
    So what did he do, leave for some place where he could get a job ? Like
    Belgium or France, considering his mother tongue ?
    
>>> BTW: The last time I called Dr. Berube's office in Montreal,('88 )I was told by 
>>> a secretary that he had just been made the director of the European branch of
>>> Lavalin Inc. in Brussels, Belgium. It means he did not have to starve to death.
    
    Ahh. so he did - but what's this ? An office in Montreal ? Lavalin - a
    fine, well known MONTREAL engineering firm. Methinkd this story doth
    somewhat distort the truth ...
    
    I do not mean to deny that the conditions described in the '60's
    existed - au contraire. However, I suspect that the story deliberately
    obscures some facts to make a point. Is it so unusual for someone to
    apply a dozen times before getting a job ? MIT or No ?
    
    The Belgium thing is a red herring, and a dishonest one as well.
    
    Shun this writer for deliberate deception.
    
    >>Oh Yes! They are not the only ones (some may say) because 12,000 (or more)
    >>Japanese-Canadians were incarcerated during WW II for being "different".
    
    Not for being "different". For hysterical reasons related to being
    members of a race that we were at war with then. Go into the files
    and read up on the atrocities at Singapore, Hong Kong, etc. and get a
    feel for the mood of the nation then ... My grandfather died at the
    hands of an Japanese soldier with a sword and a bare neck for a target -
    for falling down in a roll call in a POW camp. 
    
    That doesn't make the internments right or acceptable in today's
    Canadian society - but they had their reasons then, good or bad.
    Being "different" (racism) is a David Suzuki distortion and
    simplification of complicated times.
                        
    
    Revisionist approaches to historical outrages is an insult to the
    victims as well as the victors.
    
    Scooter

    RE: 258.35  by TRCU11::FINNEY
    
    >> So what did he do ? 
    
    Do you care to know ? Or are you asking for the sake of asking ?
    I mean, are you being condescending or  xenophobic ?
    
    If none of the above then here is the answer to your question.
    
    Dr. Berube COULD NOT get a job in business (his first preference)
    so he took a teaching job at Universite' de Montreal . 
    (Go check the records at U de Mont. if one Dr. Berube was at the
     engineering school  '66/67 -->)
    
    Later on he became the Minister of Energy and Power during 
    Rene Levesque's premiership in Quebec province of Canada.
    
    When he left government service he got a job at Lavalin, Hqts. on
    Dorchester Blvd. Montreal.  ( Go check !)
    
    He was sent to Belgium as part of a promotion !  GOT IT ?
    
    >> Shun this writer for deception >>
    
    Do you mean the Boston Globe reporter, Dr. Berube or David Suzuki ?
    
    ---'Ari

    I could testify first hand at the practices of the time (20 years ago)
    I could NOT get a job unless I could speak/read/write english, yet they
    hired people (born in Montr�al) that did not UNDERSTAND A SINGLE WORD
    IN FRENCH.  Is this racism? was it right?
    
    Jean
    

    I was being condescending, not xenophobic.
    
    Apologist for nobody.
    
    The writer I was refering to was the writer of the newspaper article.
    
    Tell you what, for every historical problem that Canada has had, I
    can come up with x number of larger problems for any country in the
    world, many of which still exist.
    
    Scooter

        
>    Tell you what, for every historical problem that Canada has had, I
>    can come up with x number of larger problems for any country in the
>    world, many of which still exist.

    The point being ...

    the point I tried to make is that if you want to make a legitimate
    statement about about legitimate concerns, use legitimate information
    to butress the statements.
    
    Scooter

    re. .40

    	Scooter, precisely the reason why we should talk about something
    different and a little more uplifting, as it were.  The Grand Canal
    comes to mind oddly enough.
    	Did anyone watch the Winter Javelin Catching Competition on the
    Grand Canal last weekend? The first sport to be played on the Grand
    Canal, and it is truly a spectators sport as you can well imagine!
    
    Glenn

    missed it, but I think maybe John Covert caught it ...
    
    ;^)
    
    Scooter
    

What's the point?    

    I'll take a stab at it...
    
    The point is, a javelin catcher is more than just a stick-in-the-mud.
    
    
    Glenn

    Re. Note 258.35 by ::FINNEY
    
    >>..Go into the files and read up on the <Japanese> atrocities
    >> at Singapore, Hong Kong, etc.. My grandfather died at the hands of
    >> Japanese <prison guards> with a sword and a bare neck for a target
    >> for falling down in a roll call in POW camp..
    
    O.K Scoot, I took your advice, (challenge?) and read up on the subject.
    The following is what I found.  
    
    A Special Report by LLOYD SHEARER,(P/M)
    ---------------------------------------------
    "IN World War II the Japanese and Nazis committed some of
    the most frightful atrocities in history. The Nazi barbarities
    have been exposed and choronicled over the years. Until recently,
    however, the Japanese horrors have not - 
    
       The Silence has been broken periodically in Japan since 1975,when
    HARUKO YOSHINAGA, a film producer, tracked down 35 of those involved.
    As a result American and Japanese writers  demanded information
    from the State under provisions of the Freedom of Information Act
    and published their findings.
      In 1937, it had been revealed, the Japanese high command ordered
    the construction of WORLD'S FIRST MAJOR biological warfare complex,
    40 miles south of Habrin, Manchuria in the village of Pingfan (China)
    Code-named UNIT-731, it consisted of 3,000 soldiers, scientists,
    and Japanese RED CROSS nurses, all under..   (in the name of Science)
    the command of Maj. SHIRO ISHII, a surgeon and graduate of Kyoto
    University, Ishii had initially talked his superiors into letting
    him organize a GERM WAREFARE CENTER at Harbin Military Hospital.
    
      Unit 731  cultured the germs/virus CAUSING: Typhus, Typhoid, Antrax,
    Cholera, Plague, Salmonella, Tetanus, Botulism, Gas Gangrene, Small-
    pox, Tick Encephalitis..etc. These bacteria were later injected
    into 3,000 Chinese and Koreans. Later on, Australian, American, British
    and Canadian prisoners of war, were also used as guinea pigs.
    
    The grotesque experiments included:
    
    1) Infecting women prisoners with syphilis, having them impregnated
    by male prisnors, then DISECTING the live babies and mothers.
    
    2) Draining the blood from prisoners' veins and substituting HORSE
    blood.
    
    3) Exploding gas gangrene bombs next to prisoners tied to stakes.
    
    4) Immersing prisoners in ICY WATER at -40 degrees F. Their frozen
    limbs were then soaked in hot water, whereupon the tissue crumbled
    and the limbs were amputated. These experiments were designed to
    produce scientific information on frostbite.
    
    5) Exposing prisoners to X-rays until they died.
    
    6) Herding infected prisoners into gas chambers, then disecting them 
    to determine  the progress of their various diseases.
    
    7) Vivisecting prisoners to complete data on human edurance of pain.
      
      
       In August 1945, when Emperor Hirohito announced the surrender
    of Japan, many of the enlisted men in UNIT-731 were so fearful
    of retribution by the advancing Allied Forces..that they
    swallowed cyanide pills at a Manchuria railroad station - which
    indicates even the enlisted soldiers knew what they were doing.
    Others who preferred to live swore a lifelong vow to secrecy.
       
      At war's end U.S. military-officials gleaned hints of these 
    heinous experimemts and began a search for Maj. Shiro Ishii,
    by then a Lt. General....
    
    Meanwhile in Tokyo Dr. Edwin Hill and Dr. Joseph Victor - interrogated
    Shiro Ishii and twenty other germ warfare specialits at the Unit-731
    from Oct. 28 to Dec. 12 1947.  They were shocked by the number of
    experiments the Japanese had conducted over the years.
    
    (Question: What if these experiments were the genesis of present day
               "unknown maladies") ?
    
    In April 1982 the Japanese government acknowledged the existence
    of UNIT-731 for the first time in public.
    The admission followed the publication by Seiichi Morimura with
    Masaki Shimosato which has sold 1.4 million copies in Japan in less
    than a year. In addition to detailing the experiments at Pingfan
    it points out that some of Japan's medical and pharmaceutical 
    firms' elite - like Ryoichi Naito, president of Green Cross, which
    developed the 1st artificial blood and Hisato Yoshimura, one of
    the authorities on human endurance to cold - are all alumni of the
    UNIT-731..."      
            p.s. There is a picture of the Unit-731 in this publication
    showing naked frozen bodies under a shed outside the camp - it
    appears to be winter with long icicles hanging from the roof and some
    one in a white lab coat standing by. (page 10,)
    
              Any further explanation from someone  who is familiar
              with these scientific research/study/experiments ?
                 

All this on the East coast of Canada?

    Boy, talk about severe whirly-twirlies!!!

    Did this really happen at Peggy's Cove?