Conference kaosws::canada

    Stay away from Toronto if you can. The cost of an average single
    family house in Toronto is now over $225000, which is higher than
    in New York.
    
    Can't give you any ideas on taxes, commuting, etc for Toronto area.
    Let us know if you are interested in other areas.
    
    Roger

    Income tax is 27% for the first $27,500 (If I remember right) and
    40% for the next 14 or so thousand (I forget the exact number).
    Canada pension approx $700/year, Unimployment Insurance $500/Year.
    Ontario sales tax is 8%, this varies according to province.
    National inflation average is 4.1% (execpt in Toronto where it's
    close to 6%). Gas is about $.50/litre (I don't know what it is in
    gallons).
    
    I agree with .1 Toronto is very expensive but I suppoese it will
    depend on your salary. $225,000 for a house in Toronto is a bit
    low unless you want to commute for 1� hrs each way a day (I do).
    
    good luck
    
    
    ron 

    
    Re .2
    
    Don't scare him away.  27% income tax rate on the first 27,500 is
    a little high.  It is more like 17% on the first 27,500, 26% from
    27,501 to 50,000 or 55,000.  If you go over that then I want your
    job :-))  but seriously over that its around 41% or 43% I think.
    Didn't pay much attension to that, I disn't quit make it that high
    this year.
    
    Also the Federal Gov't is probably going to introduce a federal
    sales tax soon.  I think they want this to cover everything including
    food.
    
    Scott.

    Don't forget that Ontario Income Tax is 51% of the federal tax,
    so 17% is only two thirds of the damage.
    
    Tom

    What it boils down to, is that for 6 and one half months of the
    year you are working for the federal/provincial governments. The
    other 5 and one half months are yours.

    Having lived in both countries, I would first like to  say 
    that although the cost of living here is somewhat higher 
    than in certain parts of the U.S., it is worth it.  I call it 
    the 'Canada' tax.
    
    As far as specifics, food and clothing are much higher here than
    in the Boston area, from which I returned about a year ago.  However,
    medical costs are negligible, and you can send your children to public
    schools here.  Income tax is a bit higher here, but CPP is much lower
    than Social Security.  As expensive as restaurants are in Toronto,
    they are still less than in New York or Boston.  And what a selection
    we have here.
    
    I don't think housing is more in Toronto than in the parts of New
    York where anyone would wish to live.  You have to compare apples
    to apples.  Rents are certainly lower here than in midtown Manhattan.
    And I just bought a two bedroom detatched house in the downtown
    east area of Toronto for $252,000.  I know this is very high, but
    I'm a 20 minute streetcar ride from Eaton's Centre.  If you like
    to live in an urban environment, there still are houses to be found,
    if you don't mind living in a typical Toronto ethnic neighbourhood.
    And our taxes are under $1000.00 a year.

    To your last question about medicare.
    
    	Everytime you visit a doctor or go to the hospital its taken
    care of. Certain specialist will cost you (dpending where you live).
    
    	Dec pays for the provincial insurance, extra insurance which
    covers, Dental, eyes, Dentists, semi-private room in the hospital,
    out-of-country expenses, prescritions, ect... Some you have to pay
    a %. Very good plan.
    
    	City taxes usualy covers water, sours and yes, GARBAGE!, snow
    removal, ect... A percentage of the taxes you pay is for the schools.
    In ONTARIO you have the choice of paying to the seperate school
    board or the public school board (seperate is cheater).
    
    DL
                          

    A while ago, I saw a TV program on this very subject.  They compared
    three families, one in Qu�bec, one in Ontario and one in Florida.
    Florida was chosen because it is supposed to have the lowest tax
    rate in the US.  All families had the same revenue (40K) and two
    children.
    
    They calculated all taxes, hidden or not, and this is what it came
    down to:	
    		Ontario was about $1000 higher than Florida
    		Qu�bec was about $1000 higher than Ontario
    
    The primary reasons, Canadians have to deal with worse winter
    conditions than Florida,  and Qu�bec has to translate to french.
    
    Jean
     

    
    Hi,
    
    Can anyone please throw some light on
    
    1. rate of interest on mortgages/loans 
    2. cost of renting/buying say 2 bed apartment around Kitchener area
    3. taxes which apply in this area 
    4. the rate of income tax (if changed from note #155.3)
    
    I am seriously thinking of immigration and was curious about the 
    cost of living.
    
    Many thanks
    
    Prakash
    
    
    
    

    Hold on a second there buddy ..... Kitchener is a great place any
    time of the year .... as a Kitchener native my own feeling is get
    the heck out of town at Oktoberfest time to let all the out-of-towners
    spend their money in crowded beer halls.  This kind of "atmosphere"
    is available year round for those who know where to find it.
    
    Back to .0 .....
    
    Provincial sales tax (applicable on most everything except food)
    is 8%.
    
    Out wonderful Federal Government wants to implement a VAT at 7%
    effective January 1, 1990.
    
    Income tax rates vary according to income, but I believe the top
    rates are around 40% .... anyone got any exact figures?
    
    2 bedroom apartment .... well really know what they rent for, though
    I suspect $600-700 would be in the ball park.  You can purchase
    a standard 3 bedroom home in the area for around $165,000 Cdn. 
    I would expect 2 bedroom condo apartments to go for around $120,000
    depending upon location and amenities.
                                          
    Hope this helps.
    
    Martin Schneider @KIT

    155.4 seems to imply that you are taxed at provincial level and
    also at federal level.
    
    Am right in saying that for below $27500 the total income tax would
    be 43% ; 17% provincial and 26% federal (prov=2/3 of fed)????Does
    the federal rate vary like the prov rate with salary band????
                                     
    I am a university graduate working as a field engineer with Customer
    Services in Belfast. I have worked in this type of role for eight
    years now , four of them with Dec. I "should?" be moving to job
    level 5 as of Jan 91. Could anyone hazard a guess as to the approx
    salary that Dec Canada would pay. 
    
    Also how do house prices translate into mortgage repaymemts?What
    is the interest rate?

    
    MMmm...43% of our income???..nah...that seems somewhat out of
    wack.Off the top of my head..on a 35-40,000 yearly income we're
    probably looking into the $10,000 mark for taxes including fedral
    and provincial.
    Morgages right now are not the best they've ever been.On a 25 year
    morgage with 5 year renwable terms we're sitting around the 14.25%
    mark..it's been better...MUCH better.
    

    Indeed, nah ...
    
    Basic Federal Tax is 17% up to about 27000
                    plus 23% up to about ???
                    plus ??  on the rest
    
    Federal Surtax is about 5% of Base Federal Tax
    
    Provincial Tax is 52% of Base Federal Tax (for Ontario)
    
    Subtract from Total Tax
    
    Non-refundable Tax Credits which include Personal Amount
                                             Married Amount
                                             Dependent Amounts
                      (and a few others)
    (These are the equivalent of deductions from total income but because
    they are deducted from the Tax Payable rather than Income, they have
    the same value for the low wage earner and the high)
    
    They are called non-refundable because they can only be used to reduce
    your tax bill ... they cannot by themselves produce a refund.
    
    Then there are some refundable tax credits, which can produce a refund
    such as the Child Tax Credit, the Sales Tax Credits.
    
    I pay a little over 25% total tax.
    
    Unlike the UK system of PAYE, the Canadian system does not
    calculate your total tax "on the fly".  It is designed on end of year
    reconciliation on your tax return.  You pay as you earn, but no
    account is taken that you've only just joined the workforce for
    example.  So, for example, where in the UK, say you don't work for
    a few months, you can claim back tax then and there.  Here, you have
    to wait until the year end.
    
    Some provinces do offer mortgage interest relief on tax, but it
    tends to be minimal ... none in Ontario.  Depending on income, there
    is a refundable tax credit based on rates.
    
    Stuart
    
    
    

    Mortgages....
    
    Also work a little differently from the UK ...
    
    Here, you take out a mortgage for a fixed period called the Term.  The
    total period until the mortgage is paid off is called the amortization.
    In the UK, generally the term and amortization is the same.  Here, the
    typical term for a mortgage will be 6 months to 5 years.  Basically
    the term is a contracted period for which the lender will lend you the
    money, and technically, at the end of the term, the lender will ask
    for the mortgage balance back.  In practice, the lender, especailly
    institutional lenders like banks, will offer to renew your mortgage
    for a new term. (Unless you've skipped payments or due to market
    conditions your house has fallen in value below the mortgage value!)
    
    Now, the size of the payments you make are based on the amortization
    and the interest rate.  Normal maximum amortization for mortgages is
    25 years.  Each time you renew your mortgage, you reduce the
    amortization.
    
    Most mortgages do not permit you to pay off a mortgage early, except
    at the end of the term, without a penalty, unless the mortgage is
    what is called open.  Open mortgages are usually for shorter terms
    like 6 mos or a year, and command an extra 1/4 point interest rate.
    
    Under normal conditions, interest rates for short term mortgages are 
    lower than for long term, but the way things are lately they are all 
    within 1/4 % of each other.  (earlier this year, long term rates were
    cheaper than short!)
    
    There are only repayment type mortgages available here ... endowment
    mortgages are not legal because the law requires the actual cost of
    borrowing be known from the onset and that cannot be done with an
    endowment.  Insurance companies offer repayment mortgages too.
    
    At the moment the current rate is 14 1/4% for any term 6 mos to 5 yrs.
    (there are some 13 3/4 bargains around).  This translates to about 14.5
    % true APR to compare.
    
    So a $100000 mortgage would cost 1191.87 per month and a bank would be
    looking at an income of about 47000 for that large a mortgage depending
    on other loans etc.
    
    Now, for example, in the Ottawa suburban area, terraced homes are about 
    100000, semis about 120 and detached 150 and up up up.  A typical
    detached 3 bedroom family home in the suburbs would be say 175000.
    
    How's that info ?
    
    Stuart
    

    depressing...

    just consider that UK mortgages last I heard were over 15% (which
    translated to Canadian rates would be over 15.5%)  Combine that with
    incomes about 30% less and higher taxes and you'll have a better
    grasp of what depressing is all about!  A trip to McDonalds might as
    well be like a meal at the Chateau Laurier!
    
    Now that's depressing  :-)

    Bic Mac under glass

    Thanks for giving me all that detail!
    
    Just to pick up on that $100000 mortgage. Working on the minimum
    allowable salary of $47000 and what I understood of your income
    tax , a monthly mortgage repayment of $1191.87 would eat up arround
    47% of your monthly pay (tax already having been deducted at 34-35% for
    this salary band).
    
    At present I am being taxed at 34% in the UK. If I were living in
    a semi detached 3-bedroom house I would have a mortgage for 35000
    UK sterling. A 25 year endownment mortgage (with the tax relief)
    plus electricity and rates would eat up arround 50% of my pay
    left after tax was deducted.
    
    But as I only live in a single bedroom appartment at present with
    a 20000 mortgage I have 70% of my pay left after all of the above
    are paid! The average terrace house would cost the same or less.
    
    So unless KO pops his clogs and they need me for a replacement , I think
    I would be better off over here!!!
    
    By the way, here in Northern Ireland, we have the cheapest UK prices.
    A terrace house arround London would be cheap at 100000 sterling!
    
    Colin 
    
                                                     

    I think your tax calculation was a little on the high side ...
    You should only lose no more than about 30% in taxes, making
    your mortgage closer to 40%.
    
    This is assuming you need a 100000 mortgage.  As a single person,
    a condo townhouse or apartment could be had for say 75-100000.
    Assuming you had say 25000 equity (�12000) you'd be looking at
    a much smaller mortgage.  If you were to rent .... rental accomodation
    is FAR more readily available here than the UK you'd be looking at
    say $600-700 per month for a 3 bedrm terraced home.  Smaller places
    are suitably cheaper.
    
    Hey, I lived 35 miles SW of London for several years and saw no way
    of owning a detached home for the next 100 years ... I moved to
    Canada straight into a 3 bedroom detached bungalow in a great
    neighbourhood.  Now ask me where I want to live ?
    
    Stuart