Conference hydra::dejavu

    This sounds very intriguing. Can you please give an example or two of 
    how it can be applied to other areas of life.
    
    Thanks.
    
    And jai bagwan!
    
    Lois

    
    Hi Lois - sure!  What we did for the first 1/4th of the class was to
    'set up the environment' for learning Sanskrit.  But it could easily
    have been anything.  
    
    In the next note I'll enter the agreements that we made.  Because of
    these agreements, the learning process became fun, incredibly rapid,
    completely experiential, and overall just a wonderful experience.  
    
    In only 2.5 days, I can now recite the entire Sanskrit alphabet, and
    pronounce some of those cryptic Sanskrit words you may have seen,
    especially the prayers and sutras.  One of my Indian friends here at
    work was completely amazed at how much I'm able to read and pronounce
    in such a short amount of time.  But these are only a few of the
    benefits of the environment.  This same environment can be used as a
    basis to teach/learn just about anything.
    
    Jai Bhagwan!
    
    Cindy 

Sanskrit Class Agreements
-------------------------

These agreements exist within the premise "I Choose To Learn Sanskrit."
They are agreements that we make to support us in learning.  They are
not a prediction of the future; rather, they are an opportunity, an 
exercise in the yogic model of learning, an experiment in a new way of
being.

1. I Choose The Point.

   Be one-pointed.  Keep your focus in the moment and with the group.  
   The group energy will carry you.  Let the learning be absorbed.

2. We Do Not Move On Until I Get It.

   Ask for clarification.  Claim your right to know.  Someone else may 
   learn just as much from your questions as you do.  So if you're not 
   sure, just ask.  This way you can remain present.

3. I Participate Fully.

   This is how you discover yourself.  Don't worry about getting it 
   Right.  Take advantage of the opportunity to be a part of *your* 
   learning process.

4. I Remain Upright and Awake.

   This is the best way to remain present, allowing your energy to flow 
   freely.  If you find yourself having trouble, just remember #3 and 
   raise your hand to participate.

5. I Am On Time.

   We're all doing this together; and being on time is a way to honor 
   ourselves, as well as each other, and our intention.

6. I Do Not Take Notes.

   Taking notes is often a strategy for Getting it Right.  Whoever said 
   you have to get it Right?  So relax.  Use your energy to be present 
   instead.

7. I Use Only The (Sanskrit script, Devanagari).

   Using the English alphabet will only complicate the learning process.  
   You'll have to do twice as much mental work.  It's just not very 
   effective.

    Cindy,
    
    Thank you!!!
    
    This is going to be very helpful!
    
    I'm going to be doing a personal growth seminar this weekend
    and the agreements will serve me well (actually they already are!).
    Sounds like you has a very insightlful and useful and fun experience at
    at Kripalu. Tres typical for that place.
    
    Once again,
    Jai Baghwan!
    Lois

    re: .3,
    	Interesting, Cindy.  I learned these principles 20 years ago
    	in educational psychology as something then called 'mastery learning.'
    
    	The underlying principle is to build on the individual's
    	intrinsic motivation to learn rather than try to enforce 
    	extrinsic motivations, like grades, threats, test scores, and so
    	on.  They also make a distinction of 'understanding what is going on' 
    	vs. 'getting it right' (meaning getting a precisely correct answer
    	as expected by the instructor) just as Cindy does.  
    
    	As I recall, it's extremely effective with people
    	who want to be there and participate, and a disaster with
    	people who feel forced to participate or are motivated
    	to goof off for whatever reason.  Thus it is not very popular
    	in most public school systems, and wonderful for much of what
    	might be called "adult education," or "self improvement" learning.
    
    						kind regards,
    
    						todd

Re.5

Todd,

Yes, the ideas have been around for a very long time.  In fact, in the
very first Yoga Sutra (Patanjali) that we read, that's where this idea
came from.  So it's a bit older than 20 years.  (;^)  To *extremely* 
loosely translate, the very first sutra says that in the absense of the 
'right/wrong' model (along with two other states), yoga happens - the 
union, the perceiving of the true Self (I) - the source. 

The underlying principles you wrote are indeed the same.  But it seems
to have evolved even more since the time you took the course.  For
example:
    
    	>As I recall, it's extremely effective with people
    	>who want to be there and participate, and a disaster with
    	>people who feel forced to participate or are motivated
    	>to goof off for whatever reason.  Thus it is not very popular
    	>in most public school systems, and wonderful for much of what
    	>might be called "adult education," or "self improvement" learning.
    
This is fine, but it doesn't go far enough.  It's like the old saying, 
"It isn't that it has been tried and failed, but that it hasn't really been
tried at all."

The problem is that it wouldn't be very popular in public schools because 
the model has not been explained and applied correctly in the beginning of 
the class learning process.  The idea of right/wrong, pass/fail is *SO*
ingrained in society and the world today, and going through this last 
weekend in the Sanskrit class made it very clear.  Even though we were in
completely voluntary learning environment, still the old patterns of 
right/wrong kept coming back into the learning process at every turn.  You
have to go through it and experience it to really understand just how deeply
embedded it is in all of us.  

So, given that there are so few adults in our society today that have been 
able to break out of the old model of right/wrong by experiencing this kind
of a learning environment firsthand, it only follows that majority of teachers 
in public schools or in any school would not be capable of even beginning to 
create that kind of an environment in their classrooms.  And so the problem 
will continue until such a time that we can build up a critical mass of
people who truly understand and can put into practice this very ancient 
paradigm in our schools and our society today.

Even in our work environment, how many of us reading this file truly feel
completely free to ask any work-related question - 'dumb' as it may be - to 
*anybody else* in the company (not just trusted friends or colleagues that 
you feel safe with, but *anybody*), knowing that we would *never* be judged 
on our lack of knowledge and understanding and that it would *never* be held 
against us?  In theory, this is what is stated, and yet do you *truly* feel 
that this is indeed the case?  If you do not, then the environment (here and
indeed anywhere) does not model what is described in .3.  This not only 
limits learning, but it limits worker productivity and teamwork as well.

And how many people have written into this notes conference saying, "I hope
this isn't a dumb question...", or, "I apologize if this is out of place or
has already been answered somewhere else...", or "Forgive my lack of 
understanding because I'm a beginner at all this...", or, "This may sound
like a ridiculous experience to especially the skeptics in this file...".  
Take a look through and see how many have written these kinds of things,
and to that extent that they have, that is the extent to which we have not
established the environment described in the ancient paradigm.  

And to the extent that even one person in this file writes comments like, 
"That person is really out to lunch.", or "How can that person believe such a 
ridiculous thing!, or worse, when another person is writing with no other 
intent than to honestly share something that happened to them (bigoted and
exclusionary statements are not counted, such as, "My God is right and yours
is wrong.", for example), then that person is also responsible for creating 
the kind of environment that goes against the ancient paradigm as well.  It's
difficult to share something when you are afraid that it's going to be 
criticized, ripped to shreads, or ridiculed, yet this is pretty much the norm
in a lot of western science, philosophy, and religion 'right/wrong' objective,
analytical-only thinking.  It happens here too on occasion, and people have 
been chased away because of such criticisms, but fortunately it's not the norm 
for this conference.  

Yes, I learned quite a bit of Sanskrit in a very short period of time - and
much to my amazement too - but that was only a very small fraction of what I 
*truly* learned in the course.

This kind of training isn't something that one can just learn in a book. 
It has to be experienced.  Vyaas Houston is a Master Teacher who teaches us
how to experience and implement this ancient paradigm.  Oh, and by the way, 
he teaches Sanskrit too....

Cindy

|The problem is that it wouldn't be very popular in public schools because 
|the model has not been explained and applied correctly in the beginning of 
|the class learning process.  The idea of right/wrong, pass/fail is *SO*
    
    I disagree somewhat with one of your assumption above, Cindy, where
    you generalize your experience to the population at large.
    
    I strongly believe that the best information available today tells us that 
    matching the teaching with individual learning style is of much greater 
    importance than finding a single optimal teaching or learning method.
    
    For example, individual characteristics have repeatedly been demonstrated 
    to be of great importance in whether the learner performs better with 
    experiential learning or outcome-based orientation (that is, whether
    they can learn tasks better by experiencing the process or by focusing on 
    the outcome).  Individuals who score high in a stable trait known as
    "imaginative absorption" consistently do better in experiential learning,
    and poorly in outcome-based learning.  Individuals who rate lower in
    imaginative absorption have the exactly reverse pattern, they do
    poorly in experiential learning and they do much better in
    outcome-based learning.
    
    Interestingly, one of the skills this was done with is one that might
    be particularly pertinent to Yoga, it was done with muscular relaxation 
    skills.   I say this is interesting because it would seem to me
    intuitively that an experiential approach would work better
    consistently with something as somatic as relaxation, but as it turns
    out, it falls right in line.  Some people learn in much better by
    focusing on the outcome.
    
    Now, what might add to this counter-intuitive result is it is extremely 
    likely that the type of people who are attracted to Yoga practice 
    (at least in the West) form a biased sample with regard to imaginative
    absorption.  I would suspect that they are more likely to score higher
    than average in imaginative absorption, because of the nature of
    Yoga practice as an experiential activity.
    
    						kind regards,
    
    						todd

                                                                    
    Todd,
    
    There was a time where I might have agreed with you.  But after this
    experience, I cannot.  
    
    There were many people in the beginning of the class who could not
    understand why there was so much time spent in setting up the
    environment.  After all, they paid their money to learn Sanskrit. 
    To some degree, even I began to question it when we had already used
    up one evening and one entire morning on something other than learning
    Sanskrit, and I've been going to Kripalu now for almost 4 years.  Also, 
    for many, it was their first time to Kripalu, or any kind of a yoga 
    ashram setting, and it was their first time doing yoga as well.
    
    But at the end, every single person 'got it'.  Especially those who had
    excelled all their lives in what you refer to as 'outcome-based'
    learning situations.  They were actually the most stunned at how much 
    they learned in such a short amount of time, and this came out in the
    final sharing of experiences we had at the end of the 3 days.
    
    About all I can add at this point is the suggestion that you consider 
    taking the course at some point and then come back and give your view.
    One thing I am confident you will see is that in this way of learning,
    individual characteristics are taken into account far more than they
    are in 'outcome-based' learning situations.  
    
    But, I suspect that you will have to experience it for yourself before 
    we can ever come to an agreement on it.  Ironic, isn't it.  (;^)
    
    Cindy 

    
    The most incredible thing we all came to realize was how 'focusing on
    the outcome' actually impeded the learning process.
    
    It was only when we gave up 'trying to learn Sanskrit' that we truly
    were able to focus in on the moment and absorb all that was going on at
    The Point.  When someone is concerned about not 'getting it', that
    fear/worry is actually a block to 'getting it'.  What this environment
    did was to remove that fear/worry, so that more energy could be used
    for staying focused in the moment and at the Point of Learning.
    
    Cindy
                                                                   

    Cindy and Todd,

    You both seem to forget that this medium is for the masses and
    not for private dialog that seems to be going on at this time.
    This conversation could be conducted via e-mail or it could be
    used to enlighten the masses by not limiting yourselves to going
    back and forth with each other trying for the last note.

    Cheers,
    justme

    
    Jacqui,
    
    I agree somewhat...but the irony of it all is that the very exchange
    illustrates the most basic point of the class I took.  Of course, you
    couldn't know that, but it does.
    
    However, in any case, I have set mine hidden.
    
    Cindy

    Cindy-roo
    
    I'm sad that you set your notes hidden.
    
    Everyone in this conference is entitled to his/her say.
    
    This is a free country and a free conference.
    
    	*Stella*

Hey, what gives? I always felt that Cindy and Todd had worthwhile
things to say, regardless of whether it appeared to be a "private
conversation" or a public discussion. Now I come upon this topic a
couple of days late and find Cindy's notes hidden and Todd's deleted. I
refuse to believe that either of these people (mods of this conference,
no less) are capable of personal attacks on each other. So what happened?

    
    Mike,
    
    Jacqui made the request, Todd deleted his notes and asked me offline to
    do the same.  I chose to set mine hidden instead.
         
    Cindy

>    Todd deleted his notes ...  I chose to set mine hidden instead.

	In keeping with the tone of disagreement?  ;-)  ;-)
	
	Jay (being a Mal ;-)

Ah, so it's Jacqui who's the troublemaker ... :-).

Reminds me of the story from Aesop's Fables about a father and his son
who were taking their donkey to sell at the market. As they traveled,
different groups of people criticized them for (1) walking when one
could be riding, (2) selfish son riding while his poor old father
walked, (3) cruel father riding, making his young son walk, (4) both
riding, overloading poor donkey. They finally decided to tie the donkey
to a pole and carry it. People laughed so much that the donkey was
frightened, kicked, fell into the river, and because its feet were
still tied, drowned. You can't please everyone.

    Mike, great fable!!!  Thanks for brightening up my morning.
    
    P.S.  Today is the Summer Solstice, e.g., first day of summer and
    longest day of the year.  Which means tomorrow the days begin
    getting shorter.  Can you believe it?

    Just so there is no misunderstanding of the previous events ...
    
    The deleted notes of mine had nothing of interest to DEJAVU in them,
    they were entirely comments I made to Cindy about how I perceived her
    discussions with me.  That makes them personal remarks.  They were not 
    personal attacks, or anything of that sort, at least not intended that 
    way,  but they were not pertinent to DEJAVU.  Jacqui embarrassed us
    (or me at least) by making what I already feared into a public
    statement, so I felt like a symbolic end was called for.
    
    							kind regards,
    
    							todd

    re: .7, (individual characteristics in learning)
    
    Some educational materials I came across recently applied loosely
    to the previous discussion about learning styles.  It was emphasized
    that there is a particularly large difference in the way dyslexics
    learn languages and the way non-dyslexics learn language.  Dyslexics,
    according to what I'm reading are much more sensitive to differences
    in teaching style.  
    
    This implies to me that you could probably find a number of people
    who are more or less insensitive to teaching style and they would
    learn on their own, but that with some people this would not work.
    
    							kind regards,
    
    							todd

    What I asked for in my original missive to both Cindy and Todd was
    to not personalize their noting but make it for the masses to learn
    something from their exchange.  That's what makes notes what it is,
    a place for the masses to learn new ideas and stuff.  Sometimes we
    noters tend to forget that other people are involved 'cause we can't
    see them standing around listening.  

    justme....jacqui