Conference hydra::dejavu

Excellent. I enjoyed that very much. And I see no need to comment further :-).

    Hi,  I'm new to all this and just had to write and ask, why?  Why
    aren't these people who "haunt" houses at rest?  What a horrible
    eternal reward to have to hang around this dimension where you can't
    communicate with anyone and where people are horrified to see you when
    you do "appear".  I hate to think of the same thing happening to me and
    after death being unable to pass to the next level and find family,
    friends, love, God or whatever our reward is.
    
    Any thoughts on this?
    
    Pat

It may seem horrible, but I suspect it's preferable to one of the alternatives.

    By alternatives, do you mean we either burn in hell, go to heaven or
    wander aimlessly around earth if we miss the mark?
    
    Pat

    I guess I believe that there are ghosts who are still hanging
    around because they want to be there -- they like the place,
    feel connected to it. My resident ghost likes children and babies;
    maybe it pleases her to watch them grow.
    
    lynn

Re .5, yes, those are the sorts of "alternatives" which come to mind in
this regard.

	re. Pat (why why why):

	One reason is that they know nothing about where to go. Very
	many of us have helpers, ready when we pass by, and they tell
	us what to do and where to go. It is not so with everyone.
	Many people are so 'earthbound' (they believe in NOTHING),
	that they don't really understand they're dead, therefore keep
	hanging around where they used to when they were in a physical
	body. Also greed after physical things can keep beings at the
	lower astral planes, but only for a while - they have to go on
	to the higher planes, and the more they hang to the lower, the
	more painful it will be to pass on. We have to pass on, just
	like we can't prevent getting older in the physical body. Many
	of us try to keep ourselves forever young, and it is so painful
	when one realizes that this is not gonna work forever ;-)..

	Ghosts are in fact beings living on the lower (possibly the low-
	est) astral planes - the 7. subplane. It is not easy to connect
	with beings when they have passed on to the higher planes.
	Another possibility is that we see a 'dead' shell from an astral
	body, who's earlier occupant has passed on to the mental plane.
	These shells can act as being alive for some time, after being
	thrown off.

	These I think are the common reasons, but there might be more.
	In fact, the astral plane is a busy place, all sorts of beings
	are there. For details, read f.ex. 'The Astral Body' by Arthur
	E. Powell - VERY useful..

	Poul

> Ghosts are in fact ...

Just curious, you sound very authoritative on this, like you have some
personal experience. Were you once a ghost or something? Or do you have
friends who are? How do you know this with such certainty?

    Poul,
    	Assuming that sometimes it is possible to imagine that 
    	I see a ghost and not actually see one ...
    
    	how could I tell the difference between a hallucinated 
    	apparition and the ghosts you are describing in your
    	reply in .8 ?
    
    	I've been reading a book about varieties of hallucinations,
    	and this point comes up frequently.  Since these experiences
    	appear 'as if real,' I'm not sure how someone skilled at
    	astral working believes they can tell the difference ?
    
    						kind regards,
    
    						todd

    Thank you Poul for the info.  It reminded me of something I had
    forgotten.  My exhusband drowned in a boating accident five years ago
    and his body was lost for three months.  As soon as I was told of this
    sad accident, I called a psychic and asked him to try and contact Bill.
    It was a well known psychic from Nashua, NH by the name of Richard
    Greene and I figured he would be reliable.  He said he did contact Bill
    and he has died because the boat (which turned over) had broken his
    neck and he drowned.  He also told me that Bill did not realize he was
    dead (it was so sudden) that he would swim to shore and probaby hang
    around his home (which was nearby) for a week or so until someone from
    the "other side" came and helped him to realize his death and pass to
    the next plane or whatever.
    
    Well, our three children went to his home and stayed there for about a
    week trying to absorb the loss and comfort each other.  They had a
    stepmother who was there also.  They felt like his presence was there
    and didn't want to leave and I am sure Bill was with them.  Just wanted
    to share this with you.  Undoubtedly Bill was a "ghost" for awhile.
    
    This stuff really intrigues me and I will look for the book you
    suggested.
    
    Pat

    Todd,
    
    I am assured that the way to tell the difference between an
    hallucination and reality is to take off your glasses.  If what you
    see is still in focus, it's an hallucination.
    
    							Ann B.

    re: .12,
    	That's not bad, Ann.  :-)
    
    	One story in the book I referred to is similar to that.
    	The researcher used a rear-projection screen and asked the subject
    	to visualize various objects.  An assistant, unknown to the
    	subject, projecting those objects against the screen, barely
    	visible.  This, it is well now known, is often indistinguishable
    	from vivid visualization.  THe subject reported that they were
    	visualizing the objects clearly.
    
    	Then, the researcher asked the subject to visualize her
    	(assumed hallucinatory) friend, a dragon.  This time, of course, there 
    	was no projection on the rear of the screen.  
    
    	She reported that she saw the dragon in her mind, but it was
    	extremely vague, not clear as she normally saw him.  And she
    	pointed out several details that were missing from the
    	visualized version that were clearly visible in the 'real' version.
    
    	When she sees the dragon, she sees it as clearly as she saw
    	the rear-projected objects, and perhaps even more clearly.
    
    	This and a number of other accounts seem to point out that
    	there is a distinct difference between 'imagining', even 
    	with a vivid imagination, and 'seeing' (hallucinating and/or
    	astral travelling).
    
    	She could clearly tell the imaginary dragon from the
    	'real' one.  Now, my question is, how could she tell an
    	'astral' dragon from a vivid hallucination of a
    	dragon ?  Or is the vividness itself considered proof of its
    	astral reality, in esoteric theory ?
    	
    	The book, by the way, is Ronald Siegel's _Fire_in_the_Brain_,
    	and it is fascinating in the kinds of questions it raises about
    	a number of psychic phenomena.
    
    							todd

	re .9:

	You're right, my reply sounded a bit authorative, but I still
	was wise enough to write 'my opinion' on the title..;-)

	The reason I am so sure about this, is that I've had a whole
	lot of astral experiences myself, at nighttime, and they all
	fit to the theories in Powell's, Leadbeater's and many other
	writer's books. When I say this, I guess you want proof, but
	there are no, as there are no proof what so ever about the
	truth in this theory or in any religion for that matter. I
	should also point out that more and more people have astral ex-
	periences these days, and I had these already from the child-
	hood, long time before I ever read these books. Look in this
	notesfile for Out-Of-Body-Experiences, there are lots of sto-
	ries about it. But when you experience something, you have
	only proof for yourself and noone else.
	
	.10:

	Todd, that was of course another possibility. When one has a
	hallucination, everything would look like it was real (except
	if anybody else see the same thing). But to distinguish a hal-
	lucination from an astral sight as a single person, would be
	ever so hard...

	.11:

	Pat, go ahead and read the books - you will find a lot of use-
	ful stuff there. I would recommend, after reading 'The Astral
	Body' you can go on with 'The Mental Body' and 'The Causal Bo-
	dy', also by Arthur E. Powell.

	Poul (who really doesn't want to sound authorative)

  No, I don't want proof. I was just curious what in your experience led
  you to be so certain about this. It's funny, but people who have never
  been dead often make authoritative statements about what it's like to
  be dead. I have to remain a bit skeptical in such cases. But then,
  never having been dead, it's hard for me to judge.

  I also recall a neat gypsy folk tale which is actually a story used to
  comfort those grieving for a recently lost loved one: the ending
  suggests that perhaps the place they've gone to is so beautiful, they
  have no desire to return to this life, and that's why they're gone.

Well I've had 2 personal encounters, once in England in the 1970's and once
in NZ in the mid 1980's.  I believe that they weren't hallucinations, because
on both occassions, my animals "saw" and reacted as well.

Guess I'd trust their eye-sight more than my own. :)

    RE: .14
    I would be interested to know about your first OOB and how it
    began for you.  Did you have an interest in the subject beforehand
    and then the expierence, or did read about OOB's first?  I would also be
    interested to know how exactly the "reality" is expierenced while in
    this state.  Is the "real world of the living" the same world in
    *detail* as that in an OOB? 
    	  Our world is characterized by a great
    degree of fine detail that is stable outside of my preception of it. 
    In dreams, however, the detail exists only as a result of finely
    concentrated attention, and the *amount* of detail is in part limited
    by the span of my consciousness to percieve it.  (I.E. the summation
    (really a integral over several systems of variables) of preceptive density
    by spaceial volume over macroscopic to microscopic scales across all 
    locally accessible perceptive dimensions is equal to some constant that
    is invariant over a relitavely short time interval)   The detail that
    exists in my dream enviroment is "supported" by my preception only,
    whereas the detail in the  "real world" is already supported to a large
    degree without my intervention.  What I am really asking are two
    questions here:
    	1)  Is the "amount" of detail that exists in the OOB enviroment 
    		such that the span of conscoiusness needed far exceeds that 
    		available to yourself? and,
    	2)  Are the specific fine details of the OOB enviroment correlated in
    		a strong way with the corresponding details of "common"
    		reality?
     
    
    Thanks in advance for the answers to these difficult (and possibly very 
    obscure) questions.
    			With regards,     The Forrest Glen
    (:^)
     

    re: .14,.17,
    
    The terminology is confusing me a little bit here.
    I think of 'Out of Body Experience' as meaning an autoscopic
    experience; one where you have the sensation of being outside of
    your body, and seeing yourself from an outside perspective.  This
    is a not uncommon experience in a number of different kinds of
    somewhat reproducible situations.  
    
    For example, there are numerous operating room
    situations where the surgeon or anesthesiologist believes that the
    individual was able to see things from their OOB perspective that
    they should not have been able to see otherwise.  This has been used by
    some to support the possibility of physical separation of soul from body
    in some sense, or at least a form of clairvoyance under conditions
    of OOBE.
    
    Now, as far as I know, most autoscopic phenomena do not involve
    visions of alternative realities, or which otherwise violate the
    normal perceptual expectations, other than the matter of the
    unusual perspective of 'floating' and of being able to sense your
    own body as separate from where you are observing.  
    
    Those type of experiences, such as described by Rev. Leadbeater
    and others, seem more akin to me structurally to the patterns found
    in dreams.
    
    In other words, my understanding of this is that an OOBE *is* an
    experience of the "real world of the living," though from an unusual
    perspective, while experiences more commonly attributed to astral
    travel or certain psychic experiences seem to be mediated by 
    patterns more similar to that found in dream imagery (or hypnopompic 
    or hypnogogic imagery), and therefore more commonly interpreted
    as visions of an alternate reality.
    
    Is this very different from your understanding of the terms ?
    
    						kind regards,
    
    						todd

    re: .16, who said the animals reacted to what was seen, too..
    
    My brother came from Florida to visit, bringing his dog, who had
    never been to my place before. As we walked up the stairs, the
    dog started barking excitedly and wagging its tail and jumping
    up and down with excitement. As soon as we opened the door, the
    dog raced into the kitchen, looked around and made a bee-line for
    the hallway and into the bathroom. There we found the dog with its
    front legs up against the corner, wagging its tail and yapping
    in great excitement. My brother said that this was how the dog
    would greet him when he came home after being out for a while,
    or at work - did the dog see someone there?
    I told my brother that the bathroom corner was an area where
    my ghost likes to hang out, the other being the hallway near a
    set of built-in drawers. The dog obviously "saw" the ghost.
    And as she moved into another room, the dog followed, wagging
    its tail and acting like it wanted to play.
    
    I get a kick out of it when people come to visit for the first
    time, unaware that I live with a ghost. Many a male friend has
    come out of the bathroom looking over his shoulder, reporting
    a sensation that he was being watched! My ghost is a peeping
    tomette!
    
    regards, lynn

	re. .17(the Forrest Glen) and .18(Todd):

	I'll try to answer these questions here. Keep in mind that the
	following represents my own viewpoints and experiences, as well
	as what one can gain from the 'official' theosophical teaching,
	what one can read in the works of Blavatsky, Leadbeater, Besant,
	Powell, Bailey and many more. Keep also in mind, that I'll try
	not to sound too authoritative, but I can't help it if I don't
	succeed in it ;-).. also, I'll recommend any of you to go study
	yourself, since my interpretation could be somewhat coloured..

	When I was a kid, I had my first OOBEs. I found myself floating
	around in our living room, and was horrified, since I didn't
	know what it was and then thought it was a nightmare. This hap-
	pened *many* times. Once you've had one of these experiences,
	you _know_ it's not a dream: the 'flying' feeling is more phy-
	sical than ever in any other dream, and you feel an enormous
	'energy rush' going through the body. Others could experience
	this in a different way, however I have talked to several who
	had the same kind of experience. Every time I had it, I fought
	and fought to get out of it, and it was very hard. This was a-
	bout age 8-10 or so, so my thoughts about life and it mysteries
	had been going on for say 2-3 years, but I didn't have any spe-
	cific meaning about it, other than 'Mom, what happens when we
	die?' ;-). At some time these events stopped, though. From age
	14 or so, I felt more and more dragged towards these questions,
	we were often a bunch in the school yard discussing these things.

	Some years later, I started reading, among others, Herman Hesse's
	books, which I found very meaningful an inspiring.

	I had almost forgot about it, when I some 15 yrs ago once more
	had an experience, which I have fully described in #1264. Also
	this time I was horrified and fought my way out of it. About 10
	yrs ago I started meditating (I always knew I had to do this),
	and then 3-4 yrs ago, the events began happening again. This
	time, I had no fear and relaxed. After this all sorts of things
	have happened. I cannot give you all the details, because they
	are of a more private nature, also it will be too lengthy. How-
	ever, you must understand, that I cannot feel superior to other
	people because of having these experiences, since we all will
	have similar in the future and *thousands* have it today. But let
	me say I have got informations about which books to read, which
	people to join and so on, in a more or less symbolic language.
	When I look back, I can see a precise logic in it all, even
	though there has been a lot of confusion in between..

	Theory: the astral world (also called the world of illusions)
	is the next world we go into after 'death'. In this world, we
	have to learn how to do things, exactly as we have to in the
	physical world. So, at first everything looks about the same
	here. But little by little, new talents grow: f.ex. the ability
	to look at four dimensions, ie. seeing an object from all sides
	at once, or the ability to travel at thought, and more.
	So when you have an OOBE when f.ex. having surgery, you have
	not been 'training' and experience just about 'normal' condi-
	tions, except seeing your body from outside. However, several
	stories have been told about communicating with a 'light per-
	son' at moments like this.
	But many of us have already begun training, some can remember
	it, some cannot. When we fall asleep, the astral body flows out
	of the physical, and usually hovers over it. Sometimes we wake
	up with a jump in the very process, everyone I think have tried
	this. At first, the astral body sleeps as well. When the Lower
	Self (The Lower Triad, the Personality) starts connecting with
	The Higher Self (The Ego, The Soul, The Higher Triade, Atma-
	Buddhi-Manas), the astral body wakes up, which can happen at
	any time in one's life (or it did already happen in an earlier
	life). It sometimes happens with moments of undescribable fear,
	since one can meet horrible entities on the lowest, the 7. a-
	stral subplane.
	Having very 'live' dreams (f.ex. with flying involved) CAN be
	rememberings in the physical brain from astral experiences. I
	think lucid dreams are included here. Moving consciousness to
	the astral body is a _completely_ different thing, this is the
	OOBE. Between the physical-etheric body and the astral body,
	there is a 'filter' to prevent us from being 'overloaded'. This
	filter can be damaged in different ways, and then lead to insa-
	nity: use of drugs, by accidents (which again is caused by bad
	karma) among other things. In the natural way, the filter is
	'burned' away when the Lower Self gradually connects to the
	Higher Self. *Many* of us are doing a great job at nighttime:
	Helping people in enourmous despair and depression in the astral
	world (there's a LOT of work to do). And *many* of us don't re-
	member a tiny bit of it when being awake. We are also being edu-
	cated; Alice Bailey insists on the education is going on from 22
	to 5 every night, around the whole world. I remember getting help
	myself when having an OOBE: I was having a long period of depres-
	sion, when I one night felt nursering hands glide gently over
	my body and the most beautiful voices whispered in my ear: 'we
	like you, we like you'. This was a most releasing and astound-
	ling beautiful experience.
	Learning to behave in the astral world involves moving freely
	on the seven subplanes, then one doesn't nessecarily have to
	deal with the awful personalities on the lowest subplane. Nor-
	mally, people of a certain development state (not too 'bad')
	wake up on the 6. or higher subplane after death. I think it is
	the 4. subplane which is called 'Summerland' (because there's
	allways light, no nighttime). When we enter this plane, we'll
	have a beautiful time: the most fantastic gardens and buildings
	and lovingly people. The higher subplanes involves more and more
	drawing towards the inside and clearing the mental body.

	Warning: don't experiment too much with all this. My advice is:
	go for knowledge first, then decide to start meditating or what-
	ever. Don't join spiritual meetings, if they are not strictly
	controlled, you are in danger of being told every kind of BS or
	other even worse things; remember, all connections with the
	astral world usually happens with the lowest plane, since this
	is the easiest one to connect with; and here, all sorts of simp-
	le, greedy and mean entities are standing in line to confuse you
	or to give you a feeling of fear or despair, to their great a-
	musement. Also, there is a danger of becoming a fanatic, especi-
	ally when experiences begin to occur. Keep the feet at the
	ground, the line to walk will be very thin. Go for knowledge and
	keep asking your heart if this or that is true.

	Well, have you lost your patience? ;-) It got longer than I
	thought...but I feel kind of idealistic about this; also, I have
	no wish to give the impression of being Mr. Know-It-All, I have
	simply did what everyone can do: studied and listened to my
	heart, re-evaluated my viewpoints, listened to others and stu-
	died more, and so on. I would also like to point out that I'm
	not ready to go into fights about if this or that is true or not;
	ask your heart and if it says NO, then throw it all away and go
	the direction you choose yourself.

	If you want further explanations, I'll try my best.

	Kind regards and a lot of respect for other viewpoints,

	Poul

    re: .20,
    	Thanks very much for that interesting and usefully detailed reply, Poul.
    	That answered a number of questions I had about this.
    	
    				todd

    Poul,  something keeps coming up in my heart when I read all this
    stuff.  That is, where does God fit into this plan.  Is he not the
    creator of all that is good and loving.  I'm a Christian and a believer
    but do not attend church anymore but always feel his presence and have
    since I was a young child.  Its like I have a protector that keeps me
    from sinking or giving up and fills me with hope.  Is God on these
    planes when you die or where is he exactly?  
    
    Hope I haven't opened up a "can of worms" so to speak for all the
    people who see it differently.
    
    Pat

    Re.22
    
    Pat,
    
    You may be interested in "Autobiography Of A Yogi", by Yogananda.  
    In there he goes into details about where God is, especially in 
    these kinds of experiences.              
    
    Cindy

    RE: .20 w/respect to .17,
    
    Thank you for your long response!  Your answer explains a lot about the
    system of your thinking as well as addressing the first part of .17.
    	Hovever, I still have the question about detail unresolved.  I am
    not so much asking about the planes or structure of your travels, but
    more about the specific preceptions that result from them.  Much can be
    asked about what the experiences "mean" or where they derive from, but
    that is not my emphasis.  The theory of astrial projection, which is
    for the most part what i am talking about here, is well described by
    yourself and others.  My emphasis is more on the specific nature of
    these experiences of preception, regardless of their meaning or
    interpretation.  The fine structrue of the preception is what i am
    after, whether the preception be in the modality of sight, touch,
    hearing, or some other (not used in the physical?).  The fine detail of
    the infromation "recieved" from the sences and the coherency of this
    detail are important.  
    	In addition to the question of "amount" of fine detail, i am asking
    about the corrilation to the "physical plane" of these details.  Your
    response seems to indicate that much of your travels are to other
    planes and that you may not visit the physical plane in the astrial
    state very often or at all.  If this is true than I am asking the wrong
    person about the corrilation of detail, (the other parts are still
    applicable).
    	If all of this is confusing (even after rereading .17) then
    I will try to make it clearer or relate it in some other way.  
    			Thanks again, 
    					The Forrest Glen
    

    
    Pat and Glen, I'll try to give it a shot tomorrow. It's evening time
    in Denmark now, and I have to slow down to get my night sleep. But
    Pat: don't despair, there certainly is a God! ;-)
    
    Poul
    

    re: God,  (with apologies for ratholing yet another good ghost story !)
    
    	One of the things that struck me when I researched hermetic
    	magic (which has many historical and philosophical links to 
    	the Blavatsky/Bailey Theosophy) was that there comes a point
    	as the initiate comes to appreciate the degree to which they
    	structure their own experiences (in psychological terms), 
    	and then is left in an existential crisis of sorts.  They
    	visualize something, and then observe how it is so, in effect
    	structuring their 'reality' as they wish, and feel very alone.
    
    	At that point, awesome responsibility is assumed, and their faith is 
    	tested.  Many find that they must come to grips with their personal 
    	conception of divinity in non-abstract terms.  They must find meaning 
    	in their existence and their experience.  It is a most poignant
    	form of religious experience.
    
    	It seems to me that this point is where the philosophy of the
    	astral hierarchy (or local equivalent) takes hold on their psyche, 
    	in some cases, and their conception of divinity within it is 
    	solidified experientially.
    
    								todd

    
    Marcos,
    
    "No man hath seen God at anytime."
    
    But then there are the women...(;^)
    
    That was written at the level where the author of that particular 
    Biblical passage was in their understanding of God at that time.
    
    Those who go beyond the duality that see God as everything, 
    everywhere, all the time.  
    
    Cindy               

    
    Todd,
    
    I *must* get you that Chopra tape....
    
    Dr. Chopra was as amusing as always at the GV 2000 conference.
    He has an alternative way of describing God.  He says, "If you
    don't like the word 'God', then you can say it's...........,
    and by the time he says the rather lengthy definition with very
    large impressive-sounding words that really do make a lot of
    sense (I think you'd even like it, actually), the audience is 
    practically on the floor laughing.  (;^) 
    
    Cindy

>    and by the time he says the rather lengthy definition with very
>    large impressive-sounding words that really do make a lot of
>    sense (I think you'd even like it, actually), the audience is 
>    practically on the floor laughing.  (;^) 
    
    Not sure how to take that ... sounds like you're saying that you
    think I enjoy pedantry to the point of absurdity.  I'm not denying
    it now, mind you ...
    
    								todd

First: Some terminological nits.

    See note 56.5 for "OOBE" vs "OBE".  It is worth noting that there
    appears to have been somewhat of a shift in the technical literature
    over the last few years (i.e., since I wrote that note) towards
    applying "OBE" to any experience where the experient feels him/herself
    to be "located" outside the body, whether or not that location can
    be identified with physical space.

    See note 1248.6, .8 & .11 for "Halucination" vs "Delusion".

Second: Appearance of dream worlds

    Lucid dreamers -- those people who have been fully or almost fully
    conscious within their dreams -- frequently report that the dream
    reality appears every bit as detailed and complex as waking reality.
    It is, however, less stable and more pliant to the will (i.e., the
    lucid dreamer apparently has *very* strong PK).  At times, however,
    these distinguishing characteristics of the dream world are only
    subtly different from the waking state.  The most reliable
    characteristic of the lucid dream state which distinguishes it from the
    waking state is its short duration.

                                          Topher

    
    *You* said it, Todd...I didn't.  (;^)
    
    The tape...the tape...it will surely arrive before the year 2000...
    
    Cindy

                                                         
    Todd,
    
    While we're in this notes file...last night I was watching a video, and
    Fred Alan Wolf, along with Nicki Scully, were overwhelming my thoughts. 
    
    Then I get a phone call from Fred (that I was not expecting, nor had
    any reason to anticipate.)  Then he said, "Do you know who I was with 
    this evening?  Nicki Scully.  She took me to my first Grateful Dead 
    concert.  48,000 people - what an experience!"  I said I wasn't at all 
    surprised, and started to laugh. Nicki has been close to the band 
    members for many years now (her former SO was their manager many years 
    ago), she took him all over the place at the concert.  Turns out that 
    at the Global Vision 2000 conference in D.C. was the first they'd met, 
    and they may do some workshops together in the future.  
    
    Cindy

    I don't know if it helps clarify anything or makes any difference,
    but my previous usage of 'hallucination' is much closer to Topher's
    technical definition in 1248 than to the meaning of 'delusion,' 
    which unfortunately may be synonymous in common parlance.
    
    In my view, simply being able to make a distinction between the
    astral 'world of illusions' and the usual sensory world means that
    the individual is certainly not 'deluded,' but has integrated
    a separate perceptual perspective into their worldview.  Perhaps
    a way of making sense of experiences in altered perceptual states,
    or things that most people don't experience very often.  
    
    And I view hallucinations as both interesting and entirely sane
    and normal phenomena (until of course they interfere with someone's
    ability to function, and obscure what they normally should be able
    to perceive, like visual disturbances occurring during driving).
    
    								todd

	re .22:

	Pat, I'll try to answer. First, I haven't read the book Cindy
	mentions, but I'm sure it's a very good advice. Second, don't
	rely totally on my explanations, I'm not an expert, only a
	beginner. And since I'm somewhat limited in my english, I have
	some problems, when I try to explain complicated theories.
	But let me try:

	The theosophical teachings rely heavily on the Bible. Christi-
	anity (as well as Catholicism and other religions) has a BIG
	meaning in Theosophy. I'm 'mostly' a Christian myself (at
	least I can say I have strong religious feelings), and I see
	no problem in being a Christian and on the same time believe
	in the reincarnation theory (let's not rathole this). Also,
	the many church ceremonies have a very important, deep esote-
	ric meaning each of them, as well as every prayer you make is
	a very powerful tool for you. Emanuel Swedenborg (1688-1772)
	has written a very interesting interpretation of the Bible:
	'Heaven And Hell'. Here he explains the esoteric meaning of the
	Bible, a sort of that time's Theosophy. It is very interesting,
	took me a whole year to read it. Let's go on:
	
	Our known universe has seven subplanes:

		1. Adi
		2. Anupadaka
		3. Atma
		4. Buddhi
		5. Manas     (Mental plane)
		6. Kama      (Astral plane)
		7. Sthula    (Physical/Etheric plane)

	The 5th subplane, the Mental world, is what normally is called
	'Heaven'. About this plane, we have some knowledge, but our i-
	magination and our physical brain is far too small to under-
	stand what is going on here in detail. It is without doubt a
	glorious and beautiful world beyond every description.
	Now, what we normal refer to as our Mighty Father in Heaven, or
	God, He is residing at the Adi plane, and in the Theosophy he
	has a name: Sanat Kumara. At this point I would like to say
	that this has not too much meaning to me, to me there is one
	God, and what His name is and where He is, is not of great im-
	portance to me.
	
	Now hold your breath: these seven subplanes are all together the
	Etheric plane on the Cosmic level, ie. the 7. subplane here!
	I have read somewhere, that every time you discover God, there
	is another God behind Him...also, beyond the Adi plane they
	speak about 'The One, Who's name should not be mentioned'...
	So, I see God as being very, very far away, and on the same
	time, very, very close...! I hope this helps.

	re .24: (Forrest Glen)

	eeehh...I think you want the intellectual version, right? ;-)

	After a bit of thinking, I'll answer this offline.	

	re .26: (Todd)

	I think I've read about this. Uptil now, during all of our
	lives, we have been living in three worlds: Physical, Astral,
	Mental, with a Physical/Etheric, an Astral and a Mental body.
	These three bodies have been new-born in every life, whereas
	the Causal body, which is residing in the higher Mental world
	(Mental 1. subplane) and express the lower aspect of the Ego
	(Atma-Buddhi-Manas), have been the same during all incarna-
	tions (but developing all the time). Now, at one point, the
	Initiate's Causal body is taken away, and then what you de-
	scribe happens. A feeling of total emptiness, also, I think
	the first glimpse of the Monad (the Spirit, residing on the
	Anupadaka plane) is then seen. Then, after a moment, the Cau-
	sal body is given back.

	Enough for now,

	Poul

    Poul,
    
    To say I'm confused is to put it mildly.  Where did you learn all this
    and whose "words" or "language" are words like Adi, etc.  Did you get
    this from books alone or did you study with some great master ;^].  You
    must know that in the basic Protestant religion (where I come from with
    both father and brother in the ministry) you do not hears words like
    you use.  Of course, I am a novice for sure but thought I was fairly
    intelligent until now!  I feel like a child asking where the rain comes
    from is the best analogy I can come up with.  And Cindy, what is the GV
    2000 conference to ask another novice question!
    
    I'm always open to new worlds and new concepts and new truths but find
    it hard to grasp it all without more proof, understanding or whatever.
    
    Pat

	Pat,

	These names are very old sanscrit words - I'm unsure about
	their origin. Some are from the old India Bible, called the
	The Veda, which I believe is 6000 yrs old. Anyway, these
	names are not important, it's more important that one can
	see the structure. Let's look at Matter on the Physical/E-
	theric plane:

			1.---\
			2.   |___Etheric Matter in 4 degrees
			3.   |
			4.---/
			5. Gas
			6. Fluid
			7. Compact

	This to give you an idea of still finer Matter when moving
	upwards through the planes, with each plane having seven
	subplanes.

	I believe there is a socalled Kirlian photographic method
	of taking pictures of Etheric Matter, so some kind of evidence
	of this theory is available. I have seen a Kirlian photo of a
	leave, which had a part of it cut off; here one could see the
	leave's physical part as well as a finer part showing what is
	called the Etheric Double (which in this case still showed the
	unspoiled structure of the leave).	

	The sanscrit words are common use in the works of Blavatsky,
	Bailey and so on.

	Poul

                                
    Re.36
    
    Pat,
    
    See note 1800 for info. on the conference.
    
    With your additional notes, I believe that you would gain even more
    from "Autobiography Of A Yogi".  Things like the astral plane, etc.,
    are defined and explained.  Doesn't contain some of the words that 
    Poul uses (Adi, etc.), but will be helpful nonetheless.  Yogananda,
    the author, also draws many, many parallels between these things and 
    what Christianity/the Bible has to say about them.
    
    Cindy
    
    PS. (slight topic diversion) Kishiko, if you're still reading, I hope 
        to get your package sent this week!  Sorry for the delay.

    
    When I said leave, I off course ment _leaf_.

    I just want to thank you all for your feedback and information.  I
    certainly have a lot to learn it appears.  Nothing like this has ever
    been taught to me in the "normal" transition between childhood and
    adulthood and I just this year turned fifty.  I guess its never too
    late.
    
    Pat

    
    Pat,
    
    Well, you're not the only one.  I just started learning about all
    these things when I got to DEJAVU back in 1987.
    
    Life hasn't been the same since!  (;^)
    
    If you're in the Stow, MA area, I think many people here can recommend
    some good bookstores for you to visit.  There's a great one, only it's
    up in Nashua, NH, on Rt.101A in Amherst called Toadstools.
    
    Another good 'crossover' book to start with is "The Kingdom of God Is
    Within You", written by Leo Tolstoy, and was the inspiration behind
    Gandhi's non-violent revolution in India when they gained independence.
    
    Note 457 in this conference may also be of some interest.
    
    Cindy

    See also note 65.* for more on Kirlian electrophotography.
    
    A lot of the confusion will likely be because Blavatsky/Bailey
    Theosophy (to distinguish that influential formal school of thought with
    the older and more general use of the term theosophy) is extremely 
    eclectic, particularly borrowing from Indian religious philosophy.
    Many of the terms in from Hindu sources will not have direct
    translations into concepts in Christianity, and sometimes there will
    be interesting speculative correlations between them, which are
    difficult to pin down, from what I've seen.
    
    							kind regards,
    
    							todd
    

    Hi,
    
        probably a bit too late to join this note, but I'll give it a go.
    It is so refreshing to hear some notes from someone who actually
    believes in Pyschic phenomina and reincarnation, rather than from
    people who have read ever so widely but dont appear to believe that it
    is much more than delusions. 
    
    Still everyone to their own.
    
    I am a Spiritualist, which means I likewise offer only my opinion. I
    have received far too much proof of life after death to disbelieve.
    I dont give two hoots what other people believe and I certainly dont
    get any merit marks for trying to convert them. Live and let live is my
    motto.
    
    
    Certainly, awareness of any knowledge will only come when you are ready
    for it..whatever the subject.
    
    Certainly I believe in God, I even believe that Jesus came to earth to
    help mankind, as in the bible. I just interpret his skills/abilities as 
    being of one of the highest, most advanced pyschics/spiritual people
    ever to come to this plane. He wasn't the first and he won't be the
    last. There will always be advanced spirits who are willing to help
    because they love enough and wish to serve. I just have a problem with
    a literal translation of him being "The son of God"..God is 
    everybody/everything..and I cannot envisage any being who is so far up
    the Spiritual evolutionary chain as being a "man".
    
    
    I agree with the previous descriptions of the various planes of
    existance, whatever you want to call them (though my understanding is
    that they are not separate but gradually transitioning).
    
    I regard an individuals movement upwards/evolution to be based on their
    spiritual evolvement. Where we are now is not far from the beginning of
    this progression, cycling round and round onto this plane. Working in 
    each  lifetime whilst we get rid of the cruder parts of the human failings 
    that we decided to work on when we were in Spirit.
    
    As described previously in this note, people gravitiate, I believe, 
    at death, to
    the plane which matches their spiritual frequency. ie All beings on
    that plane are in the same bandwidth of spiritual growth. The reason
    this plane, here, exists...ie where there are people of all sorts of spiritual
    growth, is so that you can exist in an environment where being
    selfish/cruel/ignorent/ etc can actually be of possible benefit to you.
    Only by being tested and experiencing and rejecting these failings can
    you really learn that being selfish/fearful etc is not the way to go.
    Once you have "got rid of" these basic failings than you will probably,
    in the next lives, will concentrate on higher things, wisdom, serving
    others/helping. 
    
    
    This continual reincarnation cycle I gather takes thousands of
    lifetimes and is broken only when your spiritual growth can be better
    made in Spirit. This will occur only when all matters are settled, all
    Karma paid off, everything settled. Having had a glimpse or two at the
    higher planes I can honestly say I will be well and truely glad to get
    out of this classroom. Being at school is hard work and a down right
    pain in the ass at times (you can see I have many lives to go yet).
    
    Still I AM trying
    
    lots of luck
    
    (Hope it wasn't too opinionated..?)
    
    Steve
     

    re: .43,
>    believes in Pyschic phenomina and reincarnation, rather than from
>    people who have read ever so widely but dont appear to believe that it
>    is much more than delusions. 
    
    If this is referring to anything in this string, Steve, you misread
    something.
    
    No one in this string said that psychic phenomena of any kind were 
    delusions.  The only two notes where that term was even used specifically 
    were making the distinction that these are generally *not* delusions, but 
    are often, technically speaking, hallucinations (in the sense that they 
    are vivid sensory perceptions without any apparent external source).
    The old term used by the psychic researchers of the past, but which
    never quite caught on, was 'phantasm.'
    
    	ESP research, for example, which some spiritualists use
    	to support their belief in survival of death and spirit contact,
    	indicates that some forms of contact of this sort have qualities more 
    	like _memory_ than like _perception_.  This strains the usual
    	concept people have of hallucination, but certainly there is nothing
    	inherently delusional about it.  
    
    							kind regards,
    
    							todd

	Steve,

	The expression 'Son of God' is of symbolic nature. As I see it,
	we're all 'Sons of God' - according to the books (I have no
	personal experience here), we all start out as 'Monads', on the
	2. universal subplane (Anupadaka) - this is the first start,
	the Spirit. Then the Monad begins expressing himself on the lo-
	wer planes - this is perfectly described in f.ex. one of the
	classic books: 'Man Visible And Invisible' by C.W. Leadbeater.
	This deals with the theory of 'The three outpourings', which is
	referred to in many religions.

	There is indeed a clear separation between the different planes.
	F.ex. when we die physically, we leave a dead body and enter a
	new world with different laws. When we leave the Astral world,
	we also leave a dead astral body and enter a new world, the Men-
	tal world, again with other laws for existence. Finally we leave
	the mental body and enter into the causal body, from where we
	plan the next incarnation. Hence, we are said to die three times
	in each incarnation, and we are said to live in three worlds.

	The exception is when we decide, or are being told to make a new
	incarnation direct from the Astral world, with the same astral
	body and the same mental body as in the last incarnation. I have
	read there are *many* cases like this in our time, because it's
	very important (we are right in the beginning of a very critical
	period).

	Poul

    re: 45:
    "The exception is when we decide, or are being told to make a new
     incarnation direct from the Astral world, with the same astral
     body and the same mental body as in the last incarnation. I
     have read there are *many* cases like this in our time, because it's
     very important (we are right in the beginning of a very critical
     period)."
    
    Why is it so important that there are many cases like this in our
    time, and what very critical period are we in the beginning of?
    (pardon the dangling preposition...)
    
    thanks, lynn

	Lynn,

	The reason(s) that this particular time is critical:

	Through the years, I have read many times, that Christ is going
	to return on earth, and He will do this after about 2000 yrs.
	after his birth. The references to this event are countless, I
	can't point out any specific, though. But it's our own choice
	if we want Him to return: We (the common consciousness) have
	our free will to decide if want what is referred to as 'Heaven
	on Earth' - which, if everything straightens out, should start
	within the next 30 yrs (or so).

	This is very vague, I'm afraid; but look at your surroundings,
	what do you see? I see a steadily faster development, still
	more people claim to have spiritual inspiration, still more be-
	come interested in the Inner Life. On a global level, the Sovjet
	Union has falled apart, the Berlin wall has gone - all this hap-
	pened in a *very* short time; and I'm sure things will continue
	to speed up - we'll see many collapses around us - everything
	which is not made in God's spirit is said to break apart. I have
	a hard time understanding the war in Yugoslavia, though. But I
	guess it has some thing to do with fast repay of Karma..

	I have no doubt that a lot of activity is going on at this time.
	The Big Ones, the Masters, are looking for helpers *everywhere*.
	I think we are trying to get ready to a big change of conscious-
	ness on a global level.

	Hope this helps,

	Poul

    RE. 44
    
    Todd, apologies, when I read hallucinations, I thought it meant
    delusions, ie false beliefs. (Got to be so careful with definitions
    nowadays I guess).
    
    
    regards
    
    Steve 
    
    

    
    re The ending of the age and the possibilities of a new Christ every two
    thousand (ish) years...I offer the following from an interesting
    book.."The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ" by Levi (Levi H.
    Dowling 1844-1911, at Belleville Ohio)
    
    For general interest - Levi spent approx 40 years in study and silent
    meditation in order to be able to "understand the law of
    discrimination and to tune his body to one particular tone and rhythm -
    of Jesus of Nazareth, Enoch and Melchizedec and their co-labourers"
    - to tune into the Akashic records themselves. His book describes the
    early life (missing from traditional bibles) in addition to the parts
    normally described.
    
    For a traditional Christian, there would be nothing heretical in
    Christ's life as described other than (possibly - ha) the method of
    obtaining the information.  Anyhow, I would recommend it .
    
    
    
    The introduction states that the sun and planets revolve around a
    central sun, which is millions of miles distant, and that it requires
    something less than 26,000 years to make one revolution. The orbit is
    called the Zodiac, which is divided into twelve signs, familiarly known
    as Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Leo, Virgo, libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius,
    Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces. It requires our Solar System a little
    more than 2,100 years to pass through one of these signs, and this time
    is measured as an Age or Dispensation.. because of what Astronomers
    call " the procession of the Equinoxes" the movement of the sun through
    the signs of the Zodiac is in order reverse from that above.
    
    It is stated that the sun entered the sign of Taurus in the days of our
    historic Adam, that Abraham lived not far from the beginning of the
    Arian Age. About the time of the rise of the Roman empirethe sun
    entered the Piscean (the fishes) age , so that early in this age jesus
    of nazareth lived.
    
    The human race is standing on the cusp of the Piscean-Aquarian Age.
    Aquarius is an air sign..possibly connecting to electricity, magnetism
    etc. (Yes I know that Aquarius is symbolised as a water bearer)
    
    "The Aquarian age is pre-eminently a spiritual age, and the side of the
    great lessons that Jesus gave to the world may now be comprehended by
    multitudes of people, for many are now comming to an advanced stage of
    spiritual consciousness."
    
    A Christ returns every age to teach men.. the previous Christ who lived
    when Abram lived was called Melchizedec. Others will come. 
    
    
    
     The book is published by L.N.Fowler  ISBN 0-85243-037-X
    
    
    best wishes
    
    Steve

    Wow...a lot of different stuff going on in here at once!
    
    I am going to put in my experiences/comments and I touch upon an
    earlier remark that I have no "proof" that this stuff happened.  I can
    only tell you that I sincerely believe it DID happen...
    
    1)  Hallucinations (sp?) versus reality...
    
    I have had a number of aparitions appear to me.  I have remarked on
    them in other notes in this conference.  I remember each time I would
    literally pinch myself.  I realized I was awake.  I would then talk to
    the apparition not only to try and get a response, but to make sure I
    wasn't dreaming or hallucinating.  I determined I wasn't.  Then there
    is the physical feeling...
    
    Once I was laying in bed looking at the ceiling, hadn't even been in
    bed ten minutes so I knew I wasn't asleep, when I "FELT" something sit
    down on the end of my bed.  I looked up and there she was.  
    
    About five months ago I was laying in bed and I was having a bad time
    of things and was crying into my pillow, so I was not looking up.  I
    "FELT" something sit down and brush against my leg.  I paused in my
    crying and held still thinking, "Did I just feel what I think I did?"
    I looked up to see my grandmother sitting on my bed smiling at me as if
    she were a mother trying to comfort a crying child.  I sat up and said,
    "You're really here, aren't you?"  Then she reached out with her hand
    and pushed my bangs out of my eyes and I swear to God I felt the
    feather light touch.  I had my mouth gaping at this point and I said,
    "I can't believe this.  You're really here!"  I then noticed my cat on
    the floor staring at the exact spot where I saw my grandmother and her
    hair was all on end and she was in the position of the Halloween cats,
    with her back arched.  She could see it too.  I looked away and then
    looked back.  I even got up and went to the bathroom, washed my face,
    came back and she was still there.  She never spoke to me, although I
    got the impression she was trying to comfort my and dry my tears.  I
    remember saying, "Thank you for coming."  She faded away.
    
    I have used several methods to determine the hallucination theory. 
    Mostly pinching myself to make sure I'm not sleeping, talking, and
    assuring myself of my sanity.
    
    When I was a child I used to see pets we'd had that had died.  I never
    knew whether or not my parents believed me until one night we were all
    out on the back porch playing cards and I looked down to see the
    "ghost" of a former black and white kitten coming at me (the kitten had
    been hit by a car) and when I gasped and looked up I saw that my mother
    had seen it too.  I even said, "Did you see that?" And she nodded. 
    Then I knew she believed me.
    
    When I died of an aneurysm when I was ten I had a near death experience
    where I saw God (that should answer the no man has seen God theory...I
    did...maybe it was because I was in spirit form though).  I also saw
    a deceased aunt.  When I got out of my coma and had regained my speech
    (I had been paralyzed) it was one of the very first things I told my
    parents.  I don't think children lie and I didn't lie.  To this day I
    remember the experience.
    
    RE:  OBE (Out of Body Experience?)  I have had it happen to me twice. 
    I had always been a bit skeptical about the idea of it and I had had a
    close friend die suddenly.  I missed him terribly and used to harbor
    some hope it was all a mistake, that he didn't really die, that he
    would show up one day.  He used to come to me in dreams but still, I
    didn't let it sink it.  Well, one night I suddenly found myself
    floating through the night skies, and I remember the incredible feeling
    of an energy rush, as well as feeling the wind.  I floated until I was
    over the cemetary where my friend was buried, which was miles from my
    home.  He was there and he said, "Look down there, do you see that?" 
    It was his headstone he was referring to.  I acknowledged it (I had no
    body and no voice yet I knew I'd said "yes" in some way).  He
    communicated, "I am dead.  Do you understand?  I am there.  Well, not
    me, but my body is."  I admitted it and I remember feeling a great
    sense of loss at having admitted that.  I woke up as I was coming back
    into my body.  It had taken me a lot longer to float there then it did
    to get back, I noticed.  I also had no control whatsoever.  I knew I
    wasn't dreaming.  I knew I wasn't lucid dreaming.  I am familiar with
    the feelings and sensations and details of each.  Trust me, never have
    I dreamt, lucid or otherwise, where I could feel the wind rushing
    around me!
    
    The second time was two weeks later and I don't remember much except I
    remember kind of floating around the night skies again and this time I
    woke up a little before my spirit made it back into my body.  I felt
    the entire thing.  It was a weird feeling, and not at all painful, but
    rather that I could feel a rush back into my body, as if you were
    closing the door on a wind tunnel and suddenly it was silent.
    
    RE:  Where does God fit into all of this?
    
    Well, being raised a Catholic, and having been in Catholic school at
    the time of the aneurysm, when I saw God, etc, I had no doubts about
    Him or where He was.  
    
    However, when other things started happening, such as other deceased
    people coming to me, etc.  I started dreaming about the future and the
    things would come true.  I had a lot of super-natural experiences.  I'd
    had them before I died,  but they intensified after.  I began to wonder
    where God fit in to all of this.
    
    I have elected to believe it this way.  God is still in charge.  He is
    the creator, etc of all things.  However, I think He has all sorts of
    ways of getting a point across.  You know the saying, "God works in
    mysterious ways."
    
    I think if He wanted me to know something, He may send my grandparents
    to me in a dream to tell me?  In college once I began partying a bit
    too frequently and the next thing I knew I was dreaming of my best
    friend who was standing over a pit of nightmares warning me that I was
    about to fall in.
    
    I quit drinking.  I never knew at that point whether I'd really dreamt
    it, etc.
    
    A few months later when I began to party again, the dream returned.
    
    Did my friend really come of his own will to warn me that if I didn't
    quit drinking I could ruin my life?  Or was that God using an image
    that was familiar to me, someone I would listen to?
    
    I do think God fits in to all of this, but he is in the background, at
    an even higher level.
    
    Those are only my experiences, and my opinions/beliefs.  Sorry this
    went so long...
    
    

    Re:  Hallucinations.
    
    Well, I think it helped that I never did drugs, never drank as a
    kid/teen and a lot of the experiences happened then.
    
    Even though I drank as an adult, never did any of the experiences
    happen to me while I was under the influence of alcohol, so I've never
    felt the apparitions, etc, were related to the alcohol.
    
    Also, some of them have happened in broad daylight, so I never thought
    they were dreams.
    
    Since I am a healthy woman I don't believe in spontaneous
    hallucinations, and therefore, have determined that they were real.
    
    Maybe this helps ...
    

    .re -2, -1
    
    One explaination: According to "Hands of Light" by Barbara Brennan, the
    ability to see can occur when the seals at the base of the chakras
    open. For instance, to see on the 4th level of the field, the astral
    level, the 4th seal in the 6th chakra opens. To sense physically the
    astral level, the 4th seal of the 1st chakra must open, etc. When the
    HSP (high sense perception) opens to the 4th level and above,
    non-physical beings can be perceived.
    
    In most cases, drugs cloud up our field and make it more difficult to
    open the seals. Some drugs can open the seals pre-maturely, such as
    LSD, and may cause damage to the seals. High intensity shaktipat can
    also open, and/or, damage the seals. In schizophrenia, the seals can
    open and close randomly causing "hullucinations." However, someone who
    can also open the seals at will (HSP) can also observe the same
    "hullucinations" as the schizophrenic. When a person's energy state is
    low, what they perceive is more likely to be of a lower astral nature.
    
    Most people use the term "hullucination" to refer to something that is
    not real. Seems to me, everything we perceive is real. What varies is
    the clarity of perception. If I perceieve something with a very fuzzy
    state of mind, I'm more likely to call it a dream. If it is very sharp,
    detailed, and lucid, it is perceived as "more real."
    
    wayne

|    Also, some of them have happened in broad daylight, so I never thought
|    they were dreams.
|    
|    Since I am a healthy woman I don't believe in spontaneous
|    hallucinations, and therefore, have determined that they were real.
    
    To me, a dream *is* an example of a spontaneous hallucination.  An
    additional distinction that is sometimes made is whether the 
    person experiencing it interprets it as a sensory perception ('real') or
    interprets it as a dream or product of vivid imagination.  Some
    consider an experience hallucinatory only if the individual believes
    that it is a sensory experience and tends to resist considering the 
    possibility that it was generated somehow without usual sensory 
    stimulation.   Siegel, the researcher whose book I previously
    mentioned, for example considers a waking image without sensory 
    stimulus to be only a 'pseudo-hallucination' if the individual sees
    it vividly but does not believe that it is 'out there.'  
    
    I find his distinction possibly arbitrary, though, and I prefer to 
    think of hallucinatory quality more as a function of how vivid the
    image is, and its effects on the body.
    
    For example, vivid imagery generated during deep hypnosis can have
    immediate psychosomatic effects, like raising welts or blisters in
    response to an hallucination of extreme heat.  This physiological
    response seems to me to be particularly telling of the kind of
    process that happens when we experience an apparition as if real.
    
    This is not associated with any kind of pathology, so I see no reason
    to neccessarily link the potential for other kinds of waking 
    hallucination with pathology, or to assume that a healthy person
    cannot have spontaneous waking hallucination of this sort.
    
    There is seemingly an overlap with psi experiences, the link being
    that people capable of very vivid imagery tend to report spontaneous psi
    more often, since they are partly aware (in retrospect) of the experience 
    not being 'real,' in the usual sense, yet also convinced that it is 
    meaningful.  Similar results occur in hypnotherapy, meaningful
    experiences are sometimes constructed that never happened, but have
    great value for the individual, and thus might as well have happened
    as far as they are concerned.
    
    							kind regards,
    
    							todd

    todd,
    
    Your reply of .53 is very interesting.  I view dreams as being
    communication with a sub-conscious level of our minds.  We are not
    awake and therefore I do not feel we are using our conscious mind at
    that point.  Hypnosis is similar in that it is communicating with our
    sub-conscious levels.
    
    Being awake we are using our conscious mind and therefore, I feel, a
    distinction should be made.
    
    The only time I had a hallucination that I remember is when I had a
    high fever and thought I saw a black castle overlooking some rocks and
    the sea.  I shook my head and it was gone.
    
    To me, THAT was a hallucination.
    
    IMO
    
    

    re: .54,
    
    	We're influenced greatly in how we view everything by how
    	we envision the mind itself.  The model of a 'conscious mind'
    	and 'subconscious mind,' popularized largely by the success of 
    	old Freud's clinical speculations, was tremendously valuable,
    	I think, for helping describe the ways in which our perceptions
    	and behaviors are influenced by things outside of our immediate
    	awareness.  
    
    	It's *limitation*, to me, arises from the same reason as its 
    	attractiveness, in that 'levels' is such an abstract metaphor
    	that we can project anything we want onto it, without learning
    	anything new.  This is becoming a limitation in our own lifetime,
    	since we are seemingly beginning to scratch the surface of some
    	of the actual mechanisms underlying consciousness, in terms
    	of natural processes.  To me, this means that within the next
    	century or two, we may begin to catch deeper insights glimpses into
    	what is happening in some of the cases where people experience things 
    	that are currently considered paranormal, or at least unexplained.
    	To actually find out what is different from one 'level' of 
    	consciousness or possibly 'state' of consciousness to another.  
    	
    							kind regards,
    
    							todd