Conference hydra::dejavu

    Interesting note Jamie.. thanks for entering it... or course.. it's
    conclusion is mere speculation... :-)

     Hi Jamie,
    
    You're right -- Everyone seems to be hopping on the pineal gland
    bandwagon lately.  
    
    I think I recall reading an article that linked the function of this
    gland to SADS.  SADS (Seasonal Acquired Depression Syndrome? -- I can
    never remember this one) is the well-documented disorder that some
    people demonstrate when they have been receiving too little light
    and/or light that does not represent full-spectrum sunlight.
    
    What happens to people who have had it removed through accident or
    surgery?

    	Re: Pineal Gland...
    
    .0; Jamie; where have you read that it's calcified in most adults? Does
    this imply that it's no longer (medically) functional, no melatonin?
    Any noted day/night adjustment disorders as a result?
    
    I recall reading that the pineal gland has, for no apparent reason,
    photoreceptor cells; and that there is a species of fish (or
    salamander) which utilizes these cells by virtue of a translucent area
    on top of its head, to detect changes in light (as I recall, the
    fish/salamander/whatever is otherwise blind). I'll try to dig up where
    I read these, but as I recall, they were scientific (as opposed to
    "new-age" or "channeled"  :^) sources. Seems to make sense, as it is
    known to have a day/night cycle regulatory function.
    
    More mental dredging... if memory serves, there is a substance
    10-methoxylHarmaline (or something approximating that) which requires
    melatonin for its synthesis. And 10-methoxyharmaline is a potent
    psychoactive substance, with effects similar to LSD. So *that's* what
    all of those Yogis are doing with their Pineal Calesthenics... :^) I
    greatly enjoy finding *physical* explanations for "traditional wisdom",
    such as altered states of consciousness being attributed to exercising
    the pineal gland. So, Laurie, time to sign up your Pineal at the Swim &
    Fitness center nearest you.... :^)                  
    
    Now I've got myself wondering if it was medical literature, or some of
    Robert Anton Wilson's wilder ravings. Methinks the former, but I'll try
    to find the sources.
    
    					Chuck

Also, it may be worth noting that people have
talked about a 'third eye' and/or a chakra at
the same place for a long time before western
medical science got to grips with the pineal
gland.

That the 'third eye' is colocated with the pineal
gland is the only reason *I* know of for 
supposing that they are both one and the same.

John D.

    Re .2

    >What happens to people who have had it removed through accident or
    >surgery?

    No one seems to know. As the gland is right in the center of the brain
    it would be very difficult to remove surgically and I can not imagine
    any possible way it could be accidentally removed and the victim still
    live.

    Re .3

    >.0; Jamie; where have you read that it's calcified in most adults?

    The Oxford Concise Medical Dictionary p 540.
    Lange's Review of Medical Physiology p 432-434.
    The Oxford Handbook of Clinical Specialities p 256

    >Does this imply that it's no longer (medically) functional, no
    >melatonin?

    No it continues to work.

    >I recall reading that the pineal gland has, for no apparent reason,
    >photoreceptor cells;

    They are not listed in any of the references that I have. All the
    cellular structure is consistent with its function to secrete
    melatonin. There does not appear to be any sensory cells or nerves to
    carry the signals back to the brain.

    >and that there is a species of fish (or salamander) which utilizes
    >these cells by virtue of a translucent area on top of its head, to
    >detect changes in light (as I recall, the fish/salamander/whatever is
    >otherwise blind).

    Well as my references only cover the human brain I can't comment.
    However the brain would have to be markedly different from the human
    one as the pineal gland is nowhere near any outer surface of the brain.

    >More mental dredging... if memory serves, there is a substance
    >10-methoxylHarmaline (or something approximating that) which requires
    >melatonin for its synthesis.

    N-acetyl-5-methroxytryptamine is melatonin. I can find no mention of
    melatonin being used to to produce any psychoactive substance. It gets
    broken up in the liver by 6-hydroxylation and about 90% of it appears
    in the urine.

    There are theories that it may have some function in initiating puberty
    but these have never been proved.

    Jamie.

    Re .4

    >third eye equals pineal gland yet to be proved

    A touch of moving the goalposts here I think. 

    From early times man has been fascinated by the function of the pineal
    gland. It has, as I said, assumed to have many functions. Some people
    decided that it must be the "Third Eye". Now as it does not appear to
    be an eye at all you are trying to suggest that the "Third Eye" might
    be something else. 

    Would you care to tell us the location of this organ?

    Mind you the theory that there is no such physical thing as a third eye
    fits all the facts perfectly. Perhaps it exists only in the imagination?

    Jamie.

	Further food for Pineal thought, from books close to hand. I
    believe that I read of the photo-receptor cells, and the strange
    fish/salamanders, in a book on the endocrine system from the local
    library. I'll try to track it down.
    
        The following suggests, to me, a possible physiological basis for
    the perception of "exploding white light" experienced by those who
    believe that their "third eye" has been activated, or that the
    Kundalini energy has "exploded" inside their crown chakra. I believe
    that someday we may be able to understand many such "psychic" phenomena
    in "scientific" terms, when our science advances sufficiently. Until
    then....
    
    				Enjoy,
    
    					chuck

"Embryologically, the pineal Gland is derived from a third eye
that begins to develop early in the embryo and later degenerates"

	Anodea Judith, in Wheels of Light, referenced from "Textbook
of Medical Physiology", Arthur C Guyton MD, W.B. Saunders Co, 1971 pg 884.

"Changes in External lighting influence pineal activity ... even when pathways
mediating conscious light perception have been severed"

	Wheels of Light, quoted from Cecil, Textbook of Medicine, W.B. 
Saunders Co., 1979, pg 2111 (Must be a "real" textbook.. w/that many pages :^)


"Of particluar interest is the fact that Harmaline bears close resemblance to
substances that can be obtained from the pineal gland, such as
10-methoxyharmaline. This provided the basis for some fascinating speculations,
since the mystical traditions attribute great significanceto the pineal gland
in relation to the "opening of the third eye. visionary states, and psychic
abilities"

	Stanislov Grof, M.D., The adventure of self-discovery, pg. 279


"The 6- or 10-methoxy isomer of harmaline, sometimes know as
10-methoxy-harmalan, is about half again as potent by weight as harmaline. 

 At least one harmala alkaloid is present in the pineal gland of both humans
and several animals. .... Cladio Naranjo has written: 'I want to mention that
this alkaloid is of special interest because of its close resemblance to
substances derived from the pineal gland of mammals. In particular,
10-methoxy-harmaline, which may be obtained in vitro from the incubation of
serotonin in pineal tissue, resembles harmaline in its subjective effects and
is of greater activity than the latter.'

 At a 1977 conference in San Franciso, Bo Holmstedt, a pioneer in research on
harmale alkaloids from the Karolinska Institute in Sweden, suggested that
similar substrates and enzymes are in the pineal gland for endogenous
production of DMT, 5-methoxy-DMT, and the N-methyl analogues of harmine and
harmaline. Brimblecombe and Pinder, in their 'Hallucinogenic Agents' discuss
possible metabolism routes by which adrenoglomerulotropine and malatonin,
normally present in the pineal body, may be turned into 6-methoxy-harmalan. So
far, however, no evidence has conclusively shown that this conversion actually
takes place in the human brain."

	Peter Stafford, Psychedelics Encyclopedia, 1992, pgs 344-345
                                             

Re: .6, Jamie

>    >third eye equals pineal gland yet to be proved
>
>    A touch of moving the goalposts here I think. 

Well, I don't really know what to say! I have no interest
in you scoring a goal or not. So, I assure you I wasn't 
trying to move the goalposts. I was trying to point
out that this kind of correspondence (pineal gland = third eye)
has been talked about before and one of the points that 
is made is that physical colocation doesn't necessarily mean identity.

If we have a multi-layer model of a human being with (lets
simplify) a physical plane *plus* others. Then the pineal 
gland as known to an anatomist would  exist on the physical
layer. The 'third eye' (which IMHO is a spiritual/psychical
function) would be on a different layer. Perhaps there 
would be structures colocated and perhaps not.

I have a problem with reducing everything to a physical 'thing'.
In this case, "here's the pineal gland, it's the only thing
which can be the third eye, it only does these physical things
so all third eye stuff is bunk". Even trivial examples like
trying to map the creation and experience of "Macbeth" (emotional
level? mental level?) onto brain neurones show that by trying 
to simplify we risk throwing something away. 

How much more so is this going to be true of something like
the 'third-eye'? (If such a function exists).

Please note that I make no claims at all that there
*is* a third-eye. I'm not moving goal posts. I'm interested
in allowing ideas to be explored. I also see very
real reductionist dangers in some of the approaches of
science. 

Science is a *great* tool. It's very good
working on the physical level. It's not very good at
emotional and mental levels and it's hopeless at what
we might call the spiritual level.

So, that's why I made my earlier reply. By focussing
closely on the physical level, by using the microscope of
science we learn a lot. But we risk not seeing the wood
for the trees.

John D.

PS. I don't think anyone is claiming that the 'third-eye' is
an an actual physical eye are they? I always take this to
be a reference to a function available in altered states of
conciousness. An inner sight. Etc. Sure, there may be a 
physical structure (or may not), but it's off the point.

PPS. You wouldn't take me literally if I said "When
she left me it broke my heart", would you. You wouldn't
look for a 'physical' correspondance. Neither should you
when talking about the third eye. The interest lies elsewhere.

    >Well, I don't really know what to say! I have no interest in you
    >scoring a goal or not.

    The expression "Moving the goalposts" means that once someone has
    proved a point you go back and change something to get round this
    proof. It has nothing to do with you scoring a goal, but rather
    altering the position of the goalposts and saying the goal is now
    disallowed.

    Well John let us go back and look at it from the beginning. When mankind
    first started to wonder how the body functioned they began to assign
    uses to all the strange things they found. Sometimes they were right,
    sometimes wrong and sometimes things that they were sure should be
    there weren't. An example of the last category was the hunt for the
    "Milk Vein" it does not exist, but they were sure it should.

    Now the pineal gland had them stuck for ages due to its shape and
    position some took it to be a vestigial third eye, something that we
    once used, a bit like our appendix. 

    Others came along and attributed loads of functions on this third eye.
    With it you could see people's aura, magnetic fields and other such
    nebulous things. Sayings like "Open your third eye!" gained popularity.

    Now when it is proved that this gland has no sensory function and no
    neural connection you come along and change the argument by saying
    perhaps it is not the the third eye after all.

    So if we want to address your altered question it should be; is there
    really a third eye, or does it not exist? 

    Jamie.

    re: .9,
    	Jamie,
    
    	I think where some of the confusion between you and John is coming
    	from is that you are discussing the intellectual history of
    	the Cartesian Pineal theory and similar Western ideas, and some
    	of the concepts that others are describing come from Vedic and
    	Yogic traditions, and make entirely different philosophical
    	assumptions.  They do not neccessarily correlate their
    	native equivalent of the 'Third Eye' with the Pineal gland,
    	or with any other anatomical structure, as the Western 
    	proto-psychologists did.  They map consciousness in a different manner 
    	entirely.   A matter we all know is difficult to reconcile with
    	most of existing scientific theory.
    
    	I'm not arguing for or against a multi-layer approach to
    	mind-body interaction, I'm just pointing out that there are
    	at least two different concepts of 'third eye' that are being
    	confused and could usefully be made distinct for discussion.
    
    							kind regards,
    
    							todd

    Is the use of the word "eye" erroneous, is that what's being said here?
    
    Laurie.

    ... more like 'you can see the brain and map out it's individual
    functions but that still doesn't show you the mind'... but that
    doesn't mean the mind doesn't exist or is a figment of our ...
    well our minds, of course..:-)

>    ... more like 'you can see the brain and map out it's individual
>    functions but that still doesn't show you the mind'... but that
>    doesn't mean the mind doesn't exist or is a figment of our ...
>    well our minds, of course..:-)
    
    That's a big part of the 'problem definition' in this case, I think.
    Thank you, Mary.
    								todd

                                                  
    Re.11
    
    Laurie,
    
    Actually, yes.  The 'Third Eye' is really the 6th chakra (in the front)
    in the energy body.  
    
    It is not a physical form as our other two eyes are.
    
    I've suffered from migraines for many years.  Until recently, I've been
    taking allopathic preventative medicine to prevent them from occurring. 
    Fortunately the medicine has worked well.  However, I still get them
    from time to time.
    
    Last year, I went to a Sahaja Yoga gathering, where they did energy
    work, unblocking the various chakras.  I went in with residual pain.
    which was located at the 6th front chakra.  After the Sahaja yogis
    worked on me for about 20 minutes, focusing on that chakra, the pain 
    went completely away.  This has been repeated many times.  Sometimes I
    can clear the chakra on my own, and other times I have to have some
    help.  In any case, the amt. of medicine I now take is a lot less than
    before, because of this.  Eventually I hope to get off the medicine 
    altogether.  Before this, there wasn't much hope.  Now there is.
    
    Most people aren't sensitive enough to feel their energetic bodies.  So
    for such people, essentially the energy body (quantum-mechanical body,
    as Dr.Chopra calls it) does not exist.   I, on the other hand, can feel
    blocks long before they manifest themselves my the physical body.
    
    For a more technical explanation of the energy body, along with some
    'proof' (which may or may not be to your liking), you can read "Hands Of 
    Light", by Barbara Brennan, an ex-NASA physicist.  
    
    Cindy

    	For those interested in further reading, I found the following at
    the library. It would appear that for most of the "lower animals", the
    pineal gland does contain photoreceptor cells, and is situated (in some
    cases) just underneath a "pineal window", close to the skull. In
    mammals, the location ranges from "superficial to deeply situated under
    cover of cerebral hemispheres".
    
    From "Biological Rhythms, Mood Disorders, Light Therapy, and the Pineal
    Gland", American Psychiatric Press, 1990.
    
    A chart is shown which lists the numerous attributes of the pineal
    gland, comparing them between Lampreys, fish, amphibians, reptiles,
    birds, and mammals. Under "Structural Organization" for Lampreys, fish,
    and amphibians, it indicates "Photoreceptor cells, supporting cells,
    and a "pineal window". In these animals, the gland is much closer to
    the skull than in humans, and the "pineal window" exposes the gland to
    external light. Reptiles and birds still posess photoreceptor cells,
    but for mammals, "Pinealocutes, glial cells, intrapineal neurons" are
    listed. For all species, Melatonin is the listed secretory product.
    
    For all but birds & mammals, the function is listed as "photosensory
    and secretory". For Birds & mammals the function is "light sensitive &
    secretory". It is also intersting to note that the retina also secretes
    melatonin.
    
    Pineal calcification exists to the extent of 3% in the 1st 12 months
    postnatally, rising to 7.1 at 10 years of age, and up to 33% at 18
    years. 
    
    
        Interesting (to me, but I'm easily amused) hypothesis: This gland,
    which *had* photoreceptive qualities, evolves in mammals to a buried
    location where it can no longer directly percieve light, but it *is*
    affected by external light/dark cycles. We know that hallucinations can
    occur as the result of extended sensory deprivation (flotation tanks,
    etc.). Perhaps the pineal gland, deprived of direct external "sensory
    input", can still affect the brain/mind, if other external stimuli are
    reduced, by means such as by meditation. Or perhaps the pineal can be
    "massaged" by rapid breath exercises, as are used to "raise the
    kundalini" in some traditions. Perhaps there is a missing melatonin ->
    10-methoxyharmaline link which will one day be discovered. (the book
    makes no mention of the above theory, BTW. It's primarily concerned
    with the pineal & mood disorders).
    
       In any case, if any *physical* component could be said to be
    associated with a "third eye", the above information is enough to
    convince me that the pineal gland is a prime candidate; in "lower
    animals", it still functions as an "eye".
    
       I know that there are those who think the point is being missed by
    looking for a physical "third eye", that it's a non-physically tangible
    entity, or chakra, or on a different plane of reality, etc. In my
    opinion, we only miss the point if we refuse to investigate the
    possibility of a physical link, and prefer to cling to traditional
    mythology.
    
       To someone unfamiliar with magnetism, one bar of metal's attraction 
    to another is no doubt caused by "aura attraction", or demons, or energy
    from a different plane of reality. When we try to understand the
    physics of magnetism, we are better able to utilize that power. Without
    understanding the underlying principles, we can cut the bar up into 
    refrigerator magnets; with understanding, we can build Electronic
    Magnetic Resonance Imaging equipment, used in hospitals to image inside
    patient's bodies, to search for otherwise undetectable problems.
    
    If we can better understand the biological basis of the brain/mind link, 
    and the biological/hormonal basis for our feelings & behaviour, we can
    perhaps better achieve our goals of "spiritual growth". It's not
    necessarily evil to look for better tools. One can be closed-minded to
    the sciences, just as one can be closed-minded to theories of psychic
    phenomenon. In either case, one is limiting oneself unecessarily. The
    key, of course, lies in using the knowledge wisely, alas, not always a 
    given.
    
    				Peace,
    
    					Chuck
    
    

Jamie,

>    >Well, I don't really know what to say! I have no interest in you
>    >scoring a goal or not.
>
>    The expression "Moving the goalposts" means that once someone has
>    proved a point you go back and change something to get round this
>    proof. It has nothing to do with you scoring a goal, but rather
>    altering the position of the goalposts and saying the goal is now
>    disallowed.

It may come as some surprise to you that I understood
your expression - but I did. Yes, even me a 42 yr old 
Yorkshireman! I think you misunderstood me though, even
after my long ramble. Well, what I wanted to convey
was more or less paraphrased by Mary and Todd.

As for the rest I don't agree with your view
of 'it from the beginning'.

>    Now when it is proved that this gland has no sensory function and no
>    neural connection you come along and change the argument by saying
>    perhaps it is not the the third eye after all.

Hold on a minute, I'm not changing the argument. I'm trying
to add some info. Colocation of an anatomical structure and
some hard-to-define inner perception doesn't necessarily
mean that the one mediates the other.

>    So if we want to address your altered question it should be; is there
>    really a third eye, or does it not exist? 

I don't think we could have a reasonable discussion about this.
I imagine your demands: show me it, can I measure it, is it
repeatable, etc. All very well when we're talking about a
lump of iron attracted to a magnet. More or less ok when we
talk about a brain structure mediating certain hormone levels.
Not very good when we examine writing poetry. And *hopeless*
when we talk about the outer limits of human conciousness.

As far as I can see, we need some tools appropriate to the
domain. And as far as I can see, we don't have them.

John D.

    Re .16

    Sorry John I made the mistake of thinking that you were dealing in
    facts. 

    Jamie.

    re: .15, Chuck,
    	Thanks for that Chuck, I thought it was very well stated.
    
    							todd	

    Well.  I know how I'm going to integrate this into my Belief System
    (BS).  Now anytime I feel spiritually out of sorts, I'll just blame it
    on my pineal gland.  As in, "My kundalini energy is just the pitts
    today -- my pineal must be acting up again." ;-)

    
    Re.15
    
    Thanks, Chuck. That was very interesting reading. 
    
    Body, mind, and spirit.  They're all connected.  Finding the connections
    and identifying them is what is so important.  
    
    Cindy

                  
    Something else just came to mind...
    
    While reading a book on Sai Baba, it mentioned that he was being
    followed by a photographer.  Sai Baba (Babaji) kept saying, "Not yet,
    not yet."  Finally the time came.  Babaji said, "Now!  Take the picture
    now!"
    
    The developed picture showed his third eye on his forehead.
    
    Cindy

  That reminds me of a "photograph" I saw on the cover of Star (or was
  it National Enquirer) while waiting in a checkout line at my regular
  supermarket. It was in late October shortly before the election, and
  the headline of the accompanying article was something like "I was
  abducted by aliens lead by George Bush and Bill Clinton". The "photo"
  showed the "abductee" walking down the street, flanked by two bizarre-
  looking beings who had George Bush's and Bill Clinton's heads. I'm not
  making this up. It was a good laugh, and, knowing that many people
  believe the stuff they read in these rags, I wondered how many people
  actually would believe that article. Probably not as many as believe
  the Sai Baba photograph, I dare say.

    :-)... that was a metaphor though, Mike.. :-)  ...it was *us* walking
    beside George and Bill... 

    	All,

    There's a new book out (It's at Barnes & Noble, for one) called "The
    Melatonin Miracle". In this book, two researchers have published the
    results of 30 years of research which indicates that the pineal gland
    is the body's "aging clock". Their research indicates that the
    decreasing production of melatonin by the pineal (as we age) signals 
    the rest of the body to start aging (See note .15 for some discussion re: 
    the calcification of the pineal).
    
    In their research, mice which were given melatonin in their night water, 
    beginning in their 18th month of life (approx 60 human years), lived an 
    average of 4 months longer than control mice. In adddition, their general
    health, sexual activity, and other indicators "rejuvenated" to match
    those of much younger mice (e.g., their normally patchy fur grew sleek,
    testicular and ovary size increased, etc).
    
    In another study, when pineal glands were exchanged between juvenile
    and aged mice, the aged mice lived several months longer than average
    (and than the control group), while the juvenile mice aged, then aged
    prematurely and died several months earlier than average. The control
    group, which aged normally, was operated upon in the same way as the
    two other groups, but no pineal exchange was done. Irrespective of one's
    feelings re: the appropriateness of animal research, the implications
    are, to me, staggering.
    
    	The bottom line of the book is that this research indicates that
    the pineal gland, and its production of melatonin, may be the long
    sought-after signalling mechanism by which our body tells itself to
    start running down. It is the contention of the authors that by melatonin
    supplementation, human life can be extended, and (perhaps more importantly)
    the quality of that extended life can be enhanced, since many diseases
    (e.g., diabetes, cancer) are partially attributable to a weakening of
    the immune system which is a normal part of the aging process. The
    authors extrapolate the average increase in mouse lifespan to indicate
    an average human lifespan increase to just over 100 years of age.
    
    	I find this to be a fascinating prospect, especially given the part
    that the pineal gland has played in various spiritual traditions. BTW,
    the authors are both MD's/phd's, and claim that their motivation for
    publishing the book (many of their studies used as a basis for the book
    have already been published in the appropriate peer-reviewed
    publications) is to create a public rally to encourage the government
    to sponsor more research in this area. Since melatonin is not
    patentable (it's available in health food stores as a supplement now),
    there is little incentive for private industry to sponsor such
    research.
    
       Check out the book at your favourite bookstore/library (try to get
    past the somewhat obnoxiously fantastic cover design), and decide for
    yourself.... Also, fyi, the authors don't reccomend melatonin
    supplementation before age 40, aside from usage as a periodic sleep
    aid, or for other specific conditions.
    
    
-chuck    
    	

    Having looked at the effects on the human body of melatonin, reduction
    of the size of the gonads in adults, I think I'll give it a miss. 

    Jamie.

    	For more discussion re: melatonin, and its gonadotropic effects,
    see VAXCAT::HOLISTIC, note 902. It appears that the doses associated
    with adverse effects on the gonads are 100-1000 times the normal
    dosages reccomended in the book; and that even at those doses, the
    testosterone-lowering effects are nullified (according to one study) by
    supplementation with vitamin E. There are also pointers to WEB sites
    with more information re: melatonin, pineal, aging and sleep disorder
    studies. Though more study is required, 100-1000 times the theraputic
    dosages of many substances would *kill* a person, let alone shrink the
    gonads....
    
    -chuck