Conference hydra::dejavu

    
    And actually the number of AIDS virus and the number and size of 
    cancer tumors fluctuate constantly throughout the course of
    both diseases. See...where _is_ that reference...?...ah...
    
           "The Regression of Malignancies" by Bedrick, 
    
           _American Laboratory_, Feb., 1982
    
    which includes a lengthy bibliography including several hundred cases
    of spontanious regression of cancer cases.
    
    So just noting that the diseases disappeared doesn't prove much--he'd
    have to prove that the rate of regression is greater than what 
    one would expect from spontanious regression, or that for cancer
    that the disease had remained in remission for greater than 5 years
    (the official definition of a "cure").

    I think the "official" cancer cure rate of 5 years is bogus.  I believe
    the statistics of recurrence -- either of the original type of cancer
    or of a different cancer -- at 7-8 years is rather high.
    
    A friend of mine had cancer 6 years ago.  We won't consider him safe
    until after 8 years.
    
    Mary

Re .0, this was published in 1988, huh? So let's see, between then and
now, the reason we haven't heard of this miraculous breakthrough cure
is that it threatens the scientific establishment, who, therefore,
ridicule and suppress it. Right?

    ... not money per se though... an economic system... don't you think?

HAMER::MONTALVO 
    
>    no. money.
    
     But.... money is just paper, wal...
    
>    can't get out of somolia? you're not paying the officials enough.
    
     That's not a money problem, that's a corrupt system.    
    
>    Helmsley went to jail because she did not grease the right palms.
    
     Helmsley went to jail because she didn't pay her taxes "only the
     little people pay taxes"... remember?
        
>    gotti got off the first time because he bought off some of the jurors.
 
     Once again... you're talking corruption not money.   
    
    

    re: article posted in .0,
    
    Interesting article, Marcos.  Thanks for posting it.
    
>their results are not considered  proof  by the US medical community.  So
>the Medizone Company in New York has taken on the task of doing the
>controlled studies required for the treatment to be approved in the US for
>general use.
    
    Any results published by Medizone since 1988 ?  
    
    Be interesting if they compared the rate of improvement in various areas
    using explicit ozone treatment of the blood with that of a deep breathing 
    regimen.
    
>  Would you expect to read or hear such an announcement from any medical
>journal or media outlet owned by people financially committed to the
>medical  status quo, which is practically all of them?  How many want to
>help their own occupation become unnecessary?
    
    I'd expect the research published and peer reviewed at least, even if 
    torn apart by 'status quo conspirators' and such.  The referenced
    articles seem mostly like pieces on the general mechanisms, not
    medical research on the effects of these specific kinds of oxygen 
    treatment.
    
>  Anti-oxygenation propaganda pieces will probably not mention that over
    
    Has anyone seen any of these ?
    
>  All this has been with virtually no publicity.  The official reason for
>this is that the accepted procedure for publishing medical breakthroughs is
    
    No publicity doesn't mean no peer review in medical journals.
    
    The absolute faith in the legitimacy of yet unreproduced results and the
    repetitive inflammatory social commentary does make the
    information content more suspect than if it was provided in a more
    sober fashion.
    
>and the American Psychiatric Association sees no advantage to ending mental
>illness.
    
    Health Freedom News doesn't happen to be owned by the Church of
    Scientology, does it ?   This is one of their most common arguments
    as well.   
    
    							todd

    Since this material was written, it has been found that the HIV virus
    "hides" within neural cells, and perhaps within other kinds of cells.
    Any purely blood-based therapy like this, is therefore, rather unlikely
    to be effective.  If you removed every HIV virus particle from the
    blood you would therefore not have done much against the disease,
    except possibly in its very earliest stages.  The next flare-up would
    still occur, with the amount of damage diminished little if at all.

				    Topher

    
    ref 5 years for cure...
    
    I don't think the 5 years has any great significance either. It's 
    just an arbitrary cutoff point. (I've also heard incidently that 
    someone located a gene that's associated with a predisposition
    for cancers. If you have the gene, you're never really safe.)
    
    E.

    What are KIVA lights and what do they do?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Robert

>                      <<< Note 1776.7 by VAXRIO::MARCOS >>>
>                                -< disclaimer >-

>The information presented in the basenote is for your perusal only. It does 
>not necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster, nor should the views,
>opinions, statements or claims therein be accepted at face value.

  I'm sorry Marcos, but when you present material like this without
  strong warnings, there are many people who will be blinded by
  irrational hope, and fall prey to this scum. You do a disservice to
  readers and others, whether you agree with this material or not.

  Responsible reporting is more than simply posting material verbatim.
  You have a responsibility to comment when the material could hurt some
  readers. I would be justified, in this case, to "shoot the messenger"
  to insure that he doesn't present more of this trash without comment.

             <<< HYDRA::DISK_NOTES$LIBRARY:[000000]DEJAVU.NOTE;1 >>>
                             -< Psychic Phenomena >-
================================================================================
Note 1776.0                     Hyperoxygenation                         1 reply
VAXRIO::MARCOS                                      683 lines  14-DEC-1992 07:54
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry folks. This doesn't have much to do with psychic phenomena but might be
interesting (and even important). 

AIDS, Cancer Cured by Hyperoxygenation
 
Reprinted from the June 1988 issue of Health Freedom News
 
by Waves Forest
  
  Several dozen AIDS patients have not only reversed their death
sentences, but are now back at work, completely free of the disease.  
They destroyed the virus in their blood 

IT IS WELL KNOWN THAT THE AMOUNT OF VIRUS IN THE BLOOD FLUCTUATES
DURING THE COURSE OF AIDS. "FREE OF DISEASE" DOES NOT MEAN "CURED."
ALSO, AIDS DOES NOT CAUSE DISEASE WHEN IT IS "IN THE BLOOD." IT
CAUSES DISEASE WHEN IT DISTROYS CERTAIN IMMUNE SYSTEM CELLS FROM
THE INSIDE.

by hyperoxygenation, known in various
forms as oxygen therapy, bio-oxydative therapy or auto-hemotherapy.  This
is a simple, inexpensive and very broad-spectrum healing process that many
feel could force a complete overhaul of the medical industry.  The two
basic types of oxygen therapy are ozone blood infusion, and absorption of
oxygen water (hydrogen peroxide) at very low concentrations.
  It turns out that the AIDS virus cannot tolerate high oxygen levels in
its victims  blood.  Not only that, every other disease organism tested so
far apparently has the same weakness.  Even cancer growths contract and
disappear when the oxygen saturation is sufficiently increased in the
fluids surrounding them, since they are anaerobic.
  AIDS, herpes, hepatitis, Epstein Barr, cytomegalovirus and other
lipid-envelope virus are readily destroyed by hyperoxygenating the
patient s blood with ozone.  This was demonstrated by among others Dr.
Horst Kief in Bad Hersfeld, West Germany.  Dr. Kief has already cured a
number of AIDS victims by drawing blood, infusing it with ozone and
returning it to the patient, at regular intervals until all the virus is
gone.  (He can be reached through Biozon Ozon-Technik GmbH, An Der Haune
#10, Bad Hersfeld, D-6430, Federal Republic of Germany.)  Dr. S. Rilling of
Stuttgart and Dr. Renate Viebahn of Iffezheim are among the growing number
of physicians who have obtained similar results with their patients.  They
are with Arztlich Gesellschaft fur Ozontherapie and JrJ Hansler GmbH,
respectively.

WHERE'D THEY PUBLISH RESULTS? ARE THEY AFRAID TO HAVE THEIR RESULTS QUESTIONED?

"GMBH" MEANS "CORPORATION" DO THEY HAVE A FINANCIAL INTEREST IN THE RESULTS?
IF SO, WHAT IMPARTIAL BODY HAS REVIEWED THE RESULTS?
 
The Basis of Bio-Oxidative Therapies
 
  For many years the health sciences have been seeking to identify the
primary physical causes of all diseases, and the cure-all that this basic
principle would yield.  Now both have been found, but their utter
simplicity makes them difficult to accept at first, since it seems like if
it s that easy, we should have been using them all along.
  Our bodies are composed mostly of water, which is eight ninths oxygen.

THIS IS MISLEADING. THE OXYGEN IS BOUND UP WITH HYDROGEN AND IS NOT AT ALL
SIMILAR TO UNBOUND OXYGEN (TABLE SALT IS SODIUM BOUND WITH CHLORINE. IS
TABLE SALT LIKE CHLORINE GAS OR SODIUM METAL?)

Most nutritional studies tend to get caught up in the small details of
biochemistry and overlook our most abundant and essential element, and the
fundamental role of its depletion in causing illness.  Of all the elements
the body needs, only oxygen is in such constant demand that its absence
brings death in minutes.
  The main difference, for healing purposes, between benign micro-organisms
(including our own cells), and those which cause disease, is that the
latter require much lower oxygen levels.  This is due to their more
primitive evolutionary origins, during the ages when free oxygen was far
less abundant.  Now their descendants can only survive in low-oxygen
environments such as accompany stagnation and decay.  To become a growth
medium for such parasites, one has to have allowed the oxygen saturation of
the body s fluids to drop well below the optimum level for healthy cell
growth and function.


ACTUALLY, NO. THE DISEASES COULDN'T HAVE EVOLVED BEFORE THERE WAS A 
HOST FOR THEM TO LIVE IN. ALSO, MOST DISEASES ONLY LIVE UNDER A VERY 
NARROW RANGE OF CONDITIONS (TEMPERATURE, ACIDITY, ETC.)--WHICH ARE
THE SAME AS THE CONDITIONS INSIDE THE BODY. (WHICH IS WHY YOU GET 
A FEVER WHEN YOU'RE SICK--IT HELPS KILL THE GERMS. THE COUPLE OF
DEGREES OF HEAT THROWS OFF THEIR METABOLISM)SOME DISEASES GROW BETTER 
UNDER LOW OXYGEN PRESSURE, BUT MOST DON'T LIKE LOW OXYGEN LEVELS ANY BETTER 
THAN YOU DO.

  The simplest substances available for restoring one s oxygen balance to a
healthy range are ozone (03), and hydrogen peroxide (H202), which is much
easier to obtain and use.  These are both highly toxic when concentrated,
which has tended to obscure their germicidal value except as a skin
antiseptic.  But when diluted to therapeutic levels (for H202, 1/2 of 1% or
less), they are not only non-toxic but uniquely beneficial.
 
Ozone Blood Treatment
 
  Ozone overcomes the AIDS virus by a fundamentally different process than
usually attempted with drugs.  Instead of burdening the liver and immune
system with more elaborate toxic substances, ozone simply oxidizes the
molecules in the shell of the virus.
  The treatment is remarkably simple.  The ozone is produced by forcing
oxygen through a metal tube carrying a 300-volt charge.  A pint of blood is
drawn from the patient and placed in an infusion bottle.  The ozone is then
forced into the bottle and mixed in by shaking gently, whereupon the blood
turns bright cardinal red.  

WHAT THIS COLOR CHANGE MEANS IS THAT THE HEMOGLOBIN HAS _ABSORBED_
 THE RELEASED OXYGEN. THE OXYGEN IS BOUND UP IN THE HEMOGLOBIN--IT 
ISN'T CIRCULATING FREELY IN THE BLOOD!

As the ozone molecules dissolve into the blood
they give up their third oxygen atom, releasing considerable energy which
energy which destroys all lipid-envelope virus, and apparently most other
disease organisms as well, while leaving blood cells unharmed.

OXYDATION MEANS THE MOLICULES HAVE ABSORBED AN ADDITIONAL OXYGEN
MOLICULE. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE "ENERGY IN THE BLOOD." (AND
ONCE AGAIN, THE OXYGEN HAS BEEN ABSORBED BY SOMETHING. IT ISN'T FREE IN THE
BLOOD AND MAY NEVER HAVE BEEN)

  it also oxygenates the blood to a greater degree than is usually reached,
what with poor air and sluggish breathing habits.  

YOU DON'T "OXYGENATE THE BLOOD;" YOU ADD OXYGEN TO THE HEMOGLOBIN. THERE IS
NEVER "OXYGEN IN THE BLOOD" OR ANY FREE GAS OF ANY KIND. EVER HEAR OF 
"THE BENDS?" IT'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THERE _IS_ FREE GAS IN THE BLOOD--
THE GAS BUBBLES COLLECT IN THE JOINTS AND TISSUES. IT'S QUITE PAINFUL
AND SOMETIMES CRIPPLING OR FATAL.

The treated blood is
then given back to the patient.  This treatment is given from twice a week
to twice a day, depending on how advanced the disease is.  The strengthened
blood confers some of its virucidal properties to the rest of the patient s
blood as it disperses.

WHAT ARE THESE "VIRUCIDAL PROPERTIES?" THE OXYGEN IS BOUND IN THE HEMOGLOBIN
OR THE VIRAL COAT--IT ISN'T GOING ANYWHERE. LIKE YOUR BURNED STEAK SUDDENLY 
GIVES OFF OXYGEN AND HEAT AND TURNS BACK INTO RAW MEAT...

  The disease will not return, as long as the patient maintains his blood
in an oxygen-positive state, through proper breathing, exercise, and clean
diet.

"OXYGEN POSITIVE STATE" IS MEANINGLESS GIBBERISH.

  A Dr. Preuss, in Stuttgart, has written up ten case histories of AIDS
patients he has cured by this method.  But his and the other physicians 
report of cures are all anecdotal rather than in the form of  controlled
studies , since they could not be expected to treat some patients and deny
treatment to others just for the purpose of accumulating evidence.  Thus
their results are not considered  proof  by the US medical community.  

THE AZT TRAILS WERE EVENTUALLY
EXPANDED TO TREAT EVERYONE IN THE STUDY AND THE RESULTS WERE CONSIDERED
"PROOF BY THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY." OBVIOUSLY CONTROLLED STUDIES ARE NOT
ALLWAYS NEEDED FOR A TREATMENT TO BE ACCEPTED AS VALID. AND WHERE WAS THIS
WRITTEN UP? AND WHAT DOES PREUSS DEFINE AS A "CURE" FOR AIDS?

So
the Medizone Company in New York has taken on the task of doing the
controlled studies required for the treatment to be approved in the US for
general use.

(Continued)

    re: Mike Glantz, and more general comments on pros and cons of article.
    
    I disagree, Mike.  Personally I welcome almost any properly documented 
    and appropriately introduced article for discussion, even if it happens
    to be sensationalistic or happens to somewhat abuse the use of emotional 
    appeal (which I don't  neccessarily apply all that much to Marcos' article 
    in this case).  
    
    In this case, if Marcos had insufficient medical data to
    introduce the pros and cons of the oxygenation theory, along with the
    article, then he probably did a service to us to post what he did have 
    without extensive editorial comment, to let it be reviewed on its own
    merits.
    
    As it is, it makes or implies several good, if not exactly revolutionary 
    points;
    
    1.  The incestuous relationship of the medical community and the drug
    	companies, and the longstanding reputed bias in *some* of the leading
    	journals (such as JAMA and New England Journal of Medicine)
    	toward publishing research favorable to their advertisers.
    
    2.  The research into the beneficial effects of various kinds of
    	oxygenation, including breathing therapy, on health.
    
    Places where it seems to me to be weak include the conspiracy theory
    Jamie alluded to that the medical community conspires to keep us in
    ill health, which I find much less credible; and the implication that
    particular technologies of oxygenation have anything special about them
    that is not found in other ways of achieving the same kinds of results 
    (the potential 'scam' aspect).
    
    						kind regards,
    
    						todd

> 1.  The incestuous relationship of the medical community and the drug
>     companies, and the longstanding reputed bias in *some* of the leading
>     journals

> 2.  The research into the beneficial effects of various kinds of
>     oxygenation, including breathing therapy, on health.

If these were the main points of the article, and were thoughtfully
presented with supporting material, I would have no complaint.

Re Marcos (that readers of this notesfile are probably not at risk of
being sucked in), probably not, but they may reproduce this article and
show it to friends and relatives, some of whom *will* fall prey to the
con. Without *any* commentary or disclaimer (the way .0 was posted),
the posting is only slightly less irresponsible than the original
article. In fact, however, it had *positive* commentary, which, in my
opinion, renders the posting inexcusable:

.0> doesn't have much to do with psychic phenomena but might be
.0> interesting (and even important).

Yes, important to alert everyone to the scam, maybe, but Marcos would
have made that quite clear if that were his intention. The ambiguity
betrays his complicity.

Question: what are the limits of "freedom of speech"? There *are*
limits, you know. For example, you can't claim "freedom of speech" in
defense of verbally assaulting someone. Nor can you use it as a defense
when you cheat people.

    And there I was drifting through life thinking that Tiny Tim was a
    fictional character.

    Jamie.

    re: .22,.23,
    	Well, in a 'phenomenological' sense, any written case history is a 
    	work of fiction.   
    								todd

    Hey you lot, lighten up! As if anyone noting in here is gullible...
    
    Laurie.

    I have also removed my replies.

    Jamie.

I'll leave mine. Marcos's decision to delete the basenote is a
commendable example of responsible noting.

    	Ok, given the general nature of this particular conference, and the
    	fact that medicine is not its direct focus, I can respect Marcos'
    	decision, though it makes me a little uneasy.  If it were a
    	::MEDICINE conference, or a more technical one, I'd more strongly 
    	support the contention this smells a bit like censorship.  
    
    							kind regards,
    
    							todd

    
    
    	I also would like to read whatever Marcos has to post,
    	and I can decide for myself the merits of the article
    	I never for one minute assumed that Marcos was endorsing 
    	or even advocating what he posted.  If anyone thinks we
    	need censorship, that's what the moderators are here for,
    	let them decide.  

    Marcos' decision to withdraw his post is not censorship.  No real
    pressure (i.e., threats of retribution) were made to him that I know
    of.  Rather it was argued to him that this was not something he would
    really want to post.  He accepted these arguments and responded as he
    saw fit.  Discretion is not the same as censorship.

    So saying, I make a not-too-adament appeal to Marcos to repost the
    piece with appropriate qualifications, and the same to Jamie and anyone
    else who has chosen to delete there notes.  I think that this makes
    an interesting and informative "case study".

    I would also like to emphasize that there is no evidence here of a
    "scam" per se.  Many people who present so-called "quake therapies"
    sincerely believe, however wrongly, in their efficacy.  They have
    "seen cures" and have been convinced by them, despite the fact that
    the cures have alternate explanations or may be false.  You cannot
    conclude from the fact that they make money (as is assumed) from the
    cure makes them dishonest.  Many doctors get rich with treatments which
    they (and the medical community as a whole) believe are legitimate.
    Some of these stoop to questionable, misleading, high-pressure
    techniques, so even from such sleaze can only conclude that the people
    involved are sleazy -- not that they do believe that the technique
    isn't valid.  And, of course, that someone is using the technique as a
    scam does not mean that everyone involved is.

					Topher

    re: .31,
    	Thanks for that, Topher.  *My* choice of 'censorship' was probably
    	ill chosen.  What bothered me was that Marcos seemed to base his
    	decision to withdraw on premature information, seemingly because
    	he assumed, rightly or not, that the accusations of fraud were from 
    	people who had a definitive or authoritative judgement on the case 
    	study at hand or even the topic in general, which they do not, or at 
    	least have not yet proven it to my own satisfaction, anyway.  
    
    	Bottom line is I'd love to hear more experimental data reviewed or 
    	the principles discussed further.
    
    	I withdraw my hasty comment about it 'smelling of censorship,'
    	and extend my apologies to Mike and Jamie and anyone else who
    	the comment have have been taken to apply to.
    
    						kind regards,
    							todd

    Marcos,
    
    re: somewhere around .18  (5 year remission/official "cure")
    
    I wasn't responding to the basenote. I was responding to someone else's
    reply in which they quoted the 5 year remission=cure (which I think is
    bogus)

    While you are correct Topher in saying there is no scam here there
    most definitely was one in Germany where totally useless treatment was
    being sold to AIDS sufferers in the full knowledge that it would not
    help them. No one seems to have mentioned the point that if this
    treatment had worked there would be an almost endless number of cured
    people pouring out of Germany. But four years down the line and we have
    none.

    Jamie.

Well, I alluded to it in .4.

    
    I think it's unfortunate that .0 and other replies were deleted.
    
    The one good thing is that if someone presents some information and
    others get to point out that it isn't true, in a public forum, then all
    who read the note string will be served.  
    
    What happens in a read-only environment, such as a magazine or a
    newspaper, is that there isn't much of an opportunity for people to
    write back and respond in realtime, hence the reader does not have 
    the access to immediate refuting of the original manuscript as we do 
    in notes conferences.  
    
    The article was presented in .0, and refuted in other notes while citing 
    real life examples where it did not work (and in the process, may have
    saved others from a similar fate).  I think this is great.  Had I read 
    the article in a magazine somewhere, I would not have been able to get 
    the kind of interactive feedback that happened here.  Even worse, if I
    had AIDS, I might even be inclined to give it a try. Now though, having
    read through everything before it was deleted...if I had AIDS, I would
    probably not give it a second thought...or would now at least have some 
    valuable contacts through Jamie to find out more about the treatment 
    firsthand.
    
    Deleting the article, or not putting it in at all - these are not real
    solutions.  It's unfortunate that it came to this.
    
    Cindy

    
    	RE: .36
    
    	Those are my sentiments exactly, I wholeheartedly agree
    	with your comments.  How am I supposed to learn if I'm
    	not allowed to make my own mistakes, if I'm prevented
    	from experiencing a cult, for example, then I'll never 
    	recognize one when I see it.

In my opinion, both deleting and never posting are preferable to even
the *minute* risk that someone would see the base note (with it's
mildly positive endorsement), miss the criticism, and *one single
person* would fall prey to this disgusting scam. I'm normally strongly
in favor of "caveat emptor", but in certain circumstances (most notably
con games), it's clear that the buyer may not be able to reason clearly
enough to protect themselves, and the consequences of falling into the
trap too severe.

Now I know that some of you folks who decry the deletion also happen to
favor some form of gun control. How do you square this position with a
sudden appeal to freedom of speech for an equally atrocious crime? As I
asked before: what *are* the restrictions of freedom which a society
can tolerate?

    Mike, I saw no endorsement of the treatment in the base note.  And at
    least readers of this file have the opportunity to read both sides.  By
    deleting the note altogether, they would have had the possibility of
    reading the base note somewhere else, but without the rest of the
    information supplied here by Jamie and company.
    
    As to the difference between censorship and gun control (which I don't
    favor), in the case of the former, I can make a choice to read or not
    read material and I can make a choice to believe it or not believe it. 
    However, if some nut or decides to shoot me, I don't get much choice in
    the matter.  

    Marcos,
    
    I read some time ago (no memory of where) of someone experimenting with
    heat to kill the virus in the patient's blood.  They would remove the
    blood, heat it to very high temperatures, then return it to the
    patient.  It was very risky (if the blood didn't cool sufficiently
    before returning to the patient, the heat could kill), although the 
    doctor experimenting with it was very up front about the risks
    involved.  Supposedly had favorable results with those who survived,
    although survival odds were probably on the order of 50/50.
    
    However, as others have mentioned in this file, the virus does not only
    infect blood, it can hide out in other organs.  So treatment of blood
    is not a cure.

             <<< HYDRA::DISK_NOTES$LIBRARY:[000000]DEJAVU.NOTE;1 >>>
                             -< Psychic Phenomena >-
================================================================================
Note 1776.16                    Hyperoxygenation                        16 of 39
TPTEST::GLANTZ "Mike @TAY 227-4299 TP Eng Littleton" 16 lines  15-DEC-1992 05:44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  >Responsible reporting is more than simply posting material verbatim.
  >You have a responsibility to comment when the material could hurt some
  >readers. I would be justified, in this case, to "shoot the messenger"
                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  >to insure that he doesn't present more of this trash without comment.


	I find this more threatening than the article.

> Mike, I saw no endorsement of the treatment in the base note.

Then perhaps you missed the first sentence, which said that the
information might be "important". Now, in the absence of anything like
"beware this possible con", what exactly might that "important" mean,
hmmm? Or are we pretending to be robots, here, who don't understand
things like connotation, insinuation, and reading between the lines?
"Might be important", while not an outright endorsement, is a long way
from *clearly* warning readers about the possibility of fraud. At the
very least, it implies hope. This is endorsement enough.

> Freedom of speech doesn't force anyone to listen

Sorry, but once you've read a sentence, you no longer have the option
to "not read it". Is it ok for me to verbally assault you in the first
sentence? After all, you only have to press "next unseen". And how
about those "heavy breathers" who call you at 3:00 AM? Freedom of
speech, wouldn't you say? We wouldn't want to restrict them unfairly,
would we? No, sorry, con artists prey on people who are incapable of
"just saying no", and that's one reason why we have laws which restrict
freedom of speech in some instances.

...

>> I would be justified, in this case, to "shoot the messenger"

> I find this more threatening than the article.

Why? Did you think I actually meant to shoot with a gun?

If English is not your native language, then I apologize. Permit me to
explain: when an expression appears in quotes, as mine did, it
indicates that it is not to be taken literally. It means that "shoot
the messenger" is being used as a figure of speech, and that no actual
shooting with a weapon is intended or implied. The use of quotes makes
it unambiguously clear that no threat is intended. Literate readers of
English know this. Again, if your command of English is possibly
somewhat less than a native speaker, I apologize, and hope you now
understand that my meaning was purely figurative.

    Re .40

    >One could always argue that if they  had really had 4 years of
    >complete failure then they would most likely be closed by now and the
    >FDA would never have granted them anything.

    As this scam was being run in Germany, it has nothing to do with the
    FDA. I know that all Americans seem to think that their Federal
    institutions are actually global ones, but this in not the case.

    >Ozone water filters are effective. It's said that one could even drink
    >sewage after it has been made to pass through such an ozone filter.
     
    I think that passing blood through an ozone filter may have a few
    problems if the filter is as efficient as you claim. It would have a
    tendency to filter out all the red and white cells which are a vital
    part of the blood.

    As has pointed out in other replies the virus is also present in the
    soft tissues of the body and the lymphatic system. As the ozone would
    not reach these parts, these would live on. BTW any free gas must be
    removed from the blood before it is returned to the body. Any failure
    to do this will result in an "air embolism" (a blockage of a blood
    vessel by a bubble of gas) which, depending on its location, could
    cause serious problems.  

    Now over the years I have become steadily more involved with AIDS
    patients, this is not something that I seem to have chosen, it just
    happened. I find it very difficult to watch someone die in this way.
    The aging process seems to accelerate at an incredible pace and soon
    you are left with what appears to be a very skinny old man.

    As conventional medicine can provide only palliative treatment at
    present the victims clutch at any straw. I am not capable of denying
    them this hope by telling them that the treatment will be useless. Nor
    am I capable of saying "I told you so" when it does fail. However I
    most decidedly am capable of doing everything within my power to
    challenge false claims of the fake cures.

    I am sorry but callously taking the money from people who are desperate
    and extremely vulnerably, knowing that what you are selling is totally
    useless, is a really vile thing to do. BTW most doctors here receive a
    salary. Providing treatment that is unnecessary and expansive provides
    the doctors with no extra income, so don't bother making the
    comparison again.

    Jamie.

    
    
    	RE: .43
    
    	Thank you for your clarification on "shoot the messenger",
    	the more I learn the more I recognize how ignorant I am.
    

    All of this is very interesting, but misses one vital point. Was this
    the appropriate conference for the base-note in the first place?
    
    Laurie.

You should take it as a high compliment that your writing is so clear
that it never even occurred to me for an instant that you might have
another mother tongue.

And to Marcos, I also apologize. However you must know that, even in
Portuguese, to say something like "might be a good idea" is quite
different from saying "is positively a bad idea". The mere possibility
of hope which you hinted at is what I objected to. I realize this may
be subtle, but an understanding of subtleties (I mean here shades of
understanding, not deception) is a good deal of what this notesfile is about.

    I must still confess confusion over ozone filter. How could you set it
    to pass blood cells, relatively large objects and easily seen on a
    light microscope, while stopping viruses which are *VERY* much smaller
    and are too small to be seen by a light microscope and are said to be
    too small to be stopped by a filter?

    A further point about blood, it is rather fragile and doesn't take too
    much knocking around. Mine and the extra that was donated to me, got a
    real bashing just going through the heart/lung machine. It left me with
    a jaundiced look for ages.

    You are also in error in thinking that they hang about in the blood
    first then spread to the rest of the body. Entering via the mucus
    tissue they have a good chance of entering the lymphatic system
    initially and from there spreading to the blood. In any event they will
    be in more than the blood stream very quickly.

    Remember it requires only one virus to cause the infection. Once inside
    a T cell that one virus can reproduce thousands.

    Jamie.

    How about re-posting the base note, or some modified version of it
    in ::MEDICAL or ::BIOLOGY ?   I'd like to hear more about it, if
    there's more to hear ...
    
    						todd

    Re .52

    >An ozone filter is not a particle filter.

    So it can pass large objects and trap small ones?

    Jamie.

    re: .49 - Marcos
    
    I agree with you.  Well said.

> If you leave them you could be called an accomplice to a
> con and maybe posting these references would even be gainst DEC policies.

You would have no problem if you accompanied the posting with
statements like "The claims here sound impressive. Does anyone have any
information on whether there's any truth to the information presented
in this article?" In this way, you would (correctly) raise honest
questions about the validity of the material *before* anyone gets their
hopes up about it, and avoid language (like "might be important") which
might raise hopes before this is warranted.

    Mike,
    
    Stating that information "might be important" does not imply an
    endorsement.  It means exactly what it says, and leaves open a number
    of possibilities:
    
    .  might be good information, valuable to be aware of
    .  might be bad information, still valuable to be aware of
    .  might not be of any value 
    
    I understand your outrage against con artists.  However, that does not
    give you the right of censorship.  At least, not in the U.S.

    No one has, to my knowledge, proposed any form of censorship.  Jamie,
    among others, proposes that the consequences of posting certain kinds
    of notes be considred before (or if necessary, after) posting.  I quite
    agree with that -- but I still think that the original note should be
    reposted while making it clear that no endorsement is implied.

				    Topher

    re: re-Posting elsewhere (Marcos)
    
    I notice it was re-posted in VAXCAT::HOLISTIC, where the base note
    and early replies were also deleted and discussion turned away from the 
    particulars of the case study.  I'm curious about this blood treatment 
    idea in general, but not interested enough to want to risk being accused 
    of helping to perpetrate a cruel hoax.  If Mike feels that strongly about 
    it, maybe there's something to it, he doesn't seem the type to hyper-react 
    without good reason.  So I'm not going to persue it further in the 
    DEC conferences.
    
    It certainly did bring out some interesting issues, though, Marcos,
    I do thank you for bringing it up.
    
    						kind regards,
    
    						todd

    How about "reverse censorship" then?  Mike has suggested repeatedly
    that the only responsible reporting of this information is in a way
    that *he* deems is appropriate.  
    
    By the way, Mike, I make the choice to open a given notes conference. 
    If it contains something offensive to me, that's a risk I've chosen to
    take.
    
    I don't think the heavy breather on the phone (hey, how'd you know
    about that? ;-) is a good analogy.  Other rights than freedom of speech
    come into play here.  Such as the right to privacy.

    Sorry Marcos I still don't think that your ozone filter will be
    effective. The first thing that the AIDS virus does on entering the
    blood stream is enter a T cell. There it replicates itself and as T
    cells do not take up oxygen they should be safe from your filter.

    One other point on supersaturating the blood with oxygen. As part of my
    training in SCUBA diving we were taught about oxygen poisoning. This
    can affect you when you dive below 50 meters, the point where the
    partial pressure of oxygen in your air passes one atmosphere. This
    manifests itself as something closely resembling an epileptic seizure
    and can be fatal. Could the same condition be induced by running the
    blood through a ozone filter?

    Yesterday Harry managed to talk to our friend who had the first hand
    experience of the "treatment" described in the base note. He was
    understandably rather reluctant to talk about it, but did confirm that
    was the same treatment. Apparently you have to go into a special
    clinic, whose daily charges seemed to be about the same as I was
    charged for being in the Intensive Care Unit, blood is removed, treated
    and replaced. The doctor's honorarium for this is really very modest
    and all the money goes on charges for staying in the clinic and lab
    costs for treating the blood. He believes that the clinic and lab are
    owned by the doctors.

    Out of curiosity I ran the doctors' names through the computer to find
    out if they had published any results and was not surprised to find
    that they had not. While I was in there I checked for other articles
    published in the same journal but found that it was not listed at all,
    this is rather bad as many non "main stream" publications are on the
    database. Finally I thought that I would have a look and see if
    anything was listed under hyperoxygenation. I found several articles
    but none were anything to do with killing micro organisms, they were
    more trying to bring the oxygen levels up to normal when they were very
    low, one example was cyanide poisoning.

    Jamie.

    Marcos,
    
    Just an aside, but I believe you mean H3O (1 hydrogen atom, 3 oxygen
    atoms), not H2O2 (1 hydrogen atom, 2 oxygen atoms and 2 somethings). 
    Can somebody please verify?
    
    Thanks,
    Mary

    H3O (the "3" actually being subscripted on the H) would consist of
    three hydrogens and one oxygen.  In reactions, and in describing
    loosly bound systems, a molecule or radical is frequently prefixed
    with a non-subscripted number to say that the molecule appears that
    number of times.  That is not what is being discussed.  What you
    are talking about would be HO3, while water is H2O.  I have never
    heard of either H3O or HO3, but I'm not enough of a chemist to claim
    that it doesn't exist.

    In any case, hydrogen peroxide is H2O2 (2 hydrogen and 2 oxygen atoms
    per molecule).  If you disolve ozone (O3 instead of the common form of
    oxygen O2) in water you will get hydrogen peroxide, as well as
    oxidizing any easily oxidized molecules (including viruses and
    hemogloben but also, for example, cell wall lipids I would expect) that
    happen to be floating around.

    A good way to thouroughly remove organics from water, but I would be
    hesitant to assume that its effect on blood would be benign.

				    Topher

    Mary,
    
    You have your notation wrong.
    
    H O  (H2O2) is hydrogen peroxide.
     2 2
    
    Of course, I can't think why Marcos finds hydrogen peroxide
    interesting.
    
    						Ann B.

    I sit corrected :-)
    
    I think what was confusing me was the prefix on oxide.  (in case anyone
    cares ;')

    An update on related topics ...
    
    	A teaser on a news program last night mentioned the possibility
    	of an experimental AIDS vaccine being tested on Rhesus monkeys.
    
    	Not enough information given to determine what they were really
    	talking about, or its signficance.   All they said was that
    	it was a 'weakened form of HIV,' which is of course the
    	standard principle of immunization.   I thought there was supposed
    	to be horrendous technical problems with getting an orthodox 
    	immunity reaction with HIV, so I don;t know what to make of this.
    
    	Anyone know what this might refer to ?
    
    	-------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    	In related news, the Hyperoxygenation string in ::HOLISTIC has been
    	set hidden due to a reader complaint.
    
    	Who wants to start the conspiracy theory rolling ?  ;-)
    
    						kind regards,
    						todd

    Ok, sorry for the delay but it was a fairly long piece of research and
    as they say, "A lie is half way round the world before the truth has
    got its boots on." Anyway I took time out for Christmas and New year.

    To forestall the cries of pain from window watchers I have placed my
    rather long note in the next reply.

    Jamie.

    >Proof or debunk is left to the readers.

    Fair enough Marcos.

    First let me explain, is layman's terms, how your body transports and
    uses oxygen. But no matter how simple I try to make it you will have to
    put up with some technical terms these I will explain [in brackets] as
    I go along.

    The partial pressure [the percentage of the air pressure caused by this
    gas] of oxygen in the air is about 20%. When you inhale you take in
    about 0.5 of a liter of air, of this 0.1 of a liter is oxygen. You absorb
    about 18% of the oxygen present. Almost all of this is contained in the
    haemoglobin [the contents of the red cells] a minute proportion is
    dissolved in the plasma [the liquid part of the blood].

    When the oxygen is used in the body it converts a molecule of sugar
    into a molecule of carbon dioxide, a molecule of water and releases some
    energy. The molecule of carbon dioxide takes the oxygen molecule's
    place in the haemoglobin and is transported back to the lungs where the
    whole cycle starts again. The molecule of water drains into the
    lymphatic system and, after filtering through the lymph nodes, is put
    into the blood stream.

    Now a common misconception is: we take in oxygen and this forces the
    carbon dioxide out of our blood. Whereas in fact it is the other way
    round. There is very little carbon dioxide in the atmosphere and this
    forms a gradient which causes the carbon dioxide molecule to break its
    weak bond with the haemoglobin and drop into the atmosphere. Its place
    is take by an oxygen molecule. However should the partial pressure of
    carbon dioxide ever get above 18% then this gradient is no longer
    there, the carbon dioxide can not drop out of your haemoglobin and you
    are unable to take up any oxygen, no matter how much there is in the
    air that you are breathing.

    It is also worth mentioning that certain other molecules have a far
    greater affinity to haemoglobin than oxygen. In other words, should you
    inhale them they will attach to your haemoglobin much more readily than
    oxygen and thus block the transportation of oxygen. Two examples are
    carbon monoxide and some forms of cyanide. These can kill very quickly
    by blocking 78% or greater of your ability to transport oxygen.

    I should also point out that gasses in the intestinal tract are not
    usually absorbed, but are rather passed through and ejected, with
    sometimes rather embarrassing results.

    While we are at it let us look up H2O2 and O3.

    GROLIER'S ACADEMIC AMERICAN Encyclopedia 
    Copyright @ 1992 Grolier Electronic Publishing

    peroxide  
    -------------------------------- 
 
    A peroxide is a chemical compound characterized by the presence of two
    linked oxygen atoms. Several hundred different peroxides, or peroxy
    compounds, are known, of which a few dozen have commercial value.   The
    best-known and most widely used peroxy compound is hydrogen peroxide,
    sometimes written as HOOH to indicate the structure. Hydrogen peroxide
    was discovered in 1818 by Louis Jacques Thenard. It is a colorless
    liquid that freezes at about the same temperature as water; very pure
    preparations are stable, but trace contaminants cause hydrogen peroxide
    to decompose, evolving oxygen.  

    Hydrogen peroxide is normally sold as an aqueous solution in
    concentrations of 3-90% by weight. A trace of a stabilizing agent such
    as sodium stannate is usually added to inhibit decomposition. As
    hydrogen peroxide is a strong oxidizing agent, it has been used as a
    rocket fuel; but this property has made it even more valuable as a
    bleaching agent. Of all the hydrogen peroxide commercially produced,
    about 70% is used to bleach natural and synthetic fibers and paper.
    Dilute solutions of hydrogen peroxide are used as a household
    antiseptic.  
    STEPHEN FLEISHMAN  

    ozone  
    -------------------------------- 

    Ozone is a form of OXYGEN in which three atoms combine to form a
    molecule, instead of the usual diatomic form of the element. It is a
    blue gas with a pungent odor, noticeable when the gas is formed by an
    electrical discharge.  Ozone is a powerful oxidizing agent and an
    effective antiseptic and bleaching agent;  in high concentrations it is
    a severe irritant.  The atmosphere's ozone layer protects life against
    harmful solar radiation (see OZONE LAYER), but ozone produced in the
    lower atmosphere by industry and automobile exhaust is a pollutant. It
    damages crops and may be indirectly linked to some breathing disorders.  
    
    Now on with the debunking.

    Your body produces H2O2 in great quantities, it is a waste product and
    a toxic one at that. To get rid of it the enzyme catalase is used, a
    catalyst, which is found everywhere in the body. On coming in contact
    with a molecule of H2O2 it converts it into water and oxygen. So any
    low concentrations of H2O2 entering your blood stream will immediately
    be broken down. Any higher concentrations may cause illness or even
    death.

    >This was demonstrated by among others Dr. Horst Kief in Bad Hersfeld,
    >West Germany. Dr. Kief has already cured a number of AIDS victims by
    >drawing blood, infusing it with ozone and returning it to the patient,
    >at regular intervals until all the virus is gone. 

    Well actually he can't, in fact he no longer even claims that he can.
    He has become much more modest and now claims only to reduce the level
    of virus in your blood thus giving your body a "better chance". In
    reality he is an expensive rip off.

    >Even cancer growths contract and disappear when the oxygen saturation
    >is sufficiently increased in the fluids surrounding them, since they
    >are anaerobic. Nobel Prize winner Dr. Otto Warbug demonstrated over
    >fifty years ago the basic difference between normal cells and cancer
    >cells. [section deleted] The anaerobic breakdown of glucose by cancer
    >cells forms large amounts of lactic acid as a waste product. 

    Now hands up those who now think that cancer cells are anaerobic. Well
    they are not. What the brilliant doctor Warburg discovered over 50 years
    ago was the fact that cancer cells had a lower oxygen requirement than
    normal cells. But this does not mean that they can live without oxygen
    or that oxygen in any way harms them. 

    The implication that the are anaerobic is a very cunning and subtly
    one, by slightly twisting the findings of one of the more prestigious
    names in this field their conclusions have the appearance of
    credibility, but alas they are pure bunk.

    You may also have got the impression that only cancer cells can break
    down glucose without oxygen being present to form lactic acid and that
    normal cells don't do this. Again you are being led up the garden path.
    Muscle cells all have this ability. This permits you, for short
    periods, to go into oxygen debt [using glucose faster than you can
    supply the oxygen, you later have to supply the oxygen to catch up.]
    But if you keep this up for any length of time the lactic acid builds
    up and causes cramps.

    Now who else spotted the mistake in the cancer cells being greedy for
    sugar whilst at the same time avoiding oxygen? You see both oxygen and
    sugar are supplied to the cells by the blood. If you get one you must
    get the other. Again you are being fed a line.

    As to the idea that people who like sugar being more prone to cancer,
    well it hasn't shown up in any of the masses of statistics that I have
    ploughed through. Nearly all the food we ingest we convert to sugar, so
    it would affect people who ate too much, not just those with a sweet
    tooth.

    >The simplest substances available for restoring one's oxygen balance
    >to a healthy range are ozone (03), and hydrogen peroxide (H202), which
    >is much easier to obtain and use. These are both highly toxic when
    >concentrated but when diluted to therapeutic levels they are not only
    >non-toxic but uniquely beneficial.

    Talk about understating the dangers. Hydrogen peroxide at any
    concentration above 8% will actually corrode your skin. Haemoglobin can
    only deal with O2, it has no affinity with O3.

    About here we should look at the oxygen molecule, O2. It consists of
    two oxygen atoms joined together. Oxygen atoms are seldom found alone
    as they bind easily with many other atoms.

    Now this sole oxygen molecule will bind, or oxidize, the first
    convenient atom or molecule it comes across. This is why hydrogen
    peroxide makes an excellent bleach and why it is used in rocket fuel.

    >This treatment is given from twice a week to twice a day, depending on
    >how advanced the disease is. A Dr. Preuss, in Stuttgart, has written
    >up ten case histories of AIDS patients he has cured by this method.

    Four year have passed since the above was written. During that time
    there were no papers in any reputable scientific publication by this
    doctor making these claims. Had he really cured 10 patients I feel sure
    that he would have been nominated for the Nobel prize for medicine by
    now.

    >Some of the medical uses of ozone have been appreciated for years in
    >Europe, Brazil and elsewhere, as well as its advantages over chlorine
    >for water treatment (no toxic residues, 5000 times more rapid
    >disinfection) but it is still relatively unknown in the U.S.

    As far as I can find out any medical uses for ozone in Europe are the
    same as those in the USA. Also the no toxic residues is a false claim,
    any ozone which escapes is an atmospheric pollutant.

    >Ozone infusion also provides a simple method of purifying stored blood
    >and blood components, eliminating any possibility of disease being
    >transmitted by transfusion.  

    A very very dangerous misconception here. Remember the virus that
    causes AIDS invades T cells to reproduce? Well any virus in a T cell
    will not be harmed by this treatment and can then infect the recipient
    of the blood.

    >It also pre-oxygenates blood to be transfused, greatly reducing the
    >burden on the body receiving the blood.

    Nice one that, but has a small flaw in it. When you put blood into a
    patient you insert the needle into a vein. The transfused blood goes
    first to the heart, next to the lungs to get oxygen, back to the heart
    again and then off to the body to use the oxygen. Besides, the amount
    of oxygen in one unit of blood is not really relevant when you consider
    the period it takes to get it into the patient.

    >Oxygen Water
 
    >A much simpler type of Oxygen Therapy uses hydrogen peroxide (H202),
    >which is what ozone (03) forms on contact with water. Hydrogen peroxide
    >is the only germicidal agent composed only of water and oxygen. Like
    >ozone, it kills disease organisms by oxidation as it spreads through
    >the patient's tissues. The principle is the same as with ozone blood
    >treatment.  All hostile micro-organisms prefer lower oxygen levels than
    >the body's cells require to remain healthy. Boosting the oxygen level
    >revitalizes normal cells while killing virus and other pathogens.

    As we now know this is patent rubbish. Catalase will have the H2O2
    molecules broken down before they diffuse through your tissues.

    >The domestic sales of hydrogen peroxide are rising at 15% per year, as
    >the news of this option spreads at the grassroots level.  The rapid
    >expansion of the peroxide movement is especially remarkable considering
    >there has been almost no media coverage, and in fact the FDA, American
    >Cancer Society and other enforcers of established medicine have tried
    >hard to discourage the practice.

    Well at least the FDA and Cancer Society seem to be doing their correct
    job this time and are protecting the people from con men.

    >Heart Transplant Pioneer Recommends Oxygen Water
 
    >Dr. Christian Bernard, who performed the first heart transplant, said
    >in March 1986 that he was taking peroxide and water himself, several
    >times daily to reduce arthritis and aging, and he recommended it highly
    >at that time.  Since then he has come under heavy attack by the medical
    >establishment for this position, and now states that he is not involved 
    >with the peroxide movement.  But he does not retract his original
    >endorsement, nor deny that he still uses it personally.

    Dr. Christiaan Barnard, to whom I am eternally grateful, does not seem
    to have put his claims down on paper and published them. On a point of
    interest he has since retired so what form of attack could the medical
    establishment mount on him? In any event he is fully entitled, like
    anyone else, to state his opinions.

    >Over a hundred physicians are already curing a broad assortment of
    >incurables with this natural anti-microbial agent. This includes some
    >forty or more in the US. A principle liaison to these freethinking
    >physicians is Dr. Charles H. Farr, who wrote The Therapeutic Use of
    >Intravenous Hydrogen Peroxide . He directs the International
    >Bio-Oxidative Medicine Foundation, and publishes the IBOM Newsletter
    >which contains procedural updates and technical refinements for
    >physicians using intravenous H202 therapy on their patients.

    Dr Farr has singularly omitted to publish his findings in any
    credible scientific publication. The IBOM newsletter does not seem to
    be on any of the databases that I can access.

    >H202 Can be Self-Administered
 
    >The oral and skin applications offer the option of home treatment, as
    >no blood needs to be drawn, and hydrogen peroxide is cheap and
    >plentiful. Keep it diluted though; in high concentrations it can
    >irritate sensitive skin and induce vomiting when ingested. 

    Considering the damaging side effects of drinking hydrogen peroxide I
    consider the above to be very dodgey advice. I was once given hydrogen
    peroxide for a gum infection, I was warned that under no circumstances
    was I to swallow it, just rinse the infected area. FWIW the hydrogen
    peroxide had no effect and the infection was cleared up with
    penicillin.

    >For more dosage details and extensive references on H202 taken
    >internally, contact Walter Grotz, Box 126, Delano, MN 55328; (612)
    >972-2144. He provides much of the material regarding H202 in this
    >article. Another source is Father Richard Wilhelm, Box 18, Union Road,
    >California, KY 41007; (606) 635-9297.  These gentlemen have continued
    >the research initiated by Dr. Edward Carl Rosenow (1875-1966). They
    >have located over 4000 peer-reviewed medical articles on the
    >applications of hydrogen peroxide, some dating back to the 1800's. 

    Well none of the peer-review medical articles seem to be published in
    the regular scientific publications. As Walter Grotz is credited with
    supplying much of the information, most of which appears to be wrong,
    it might be a foolish move to ask his advice about drinking H2O2.

    >They received the National Health Federation's Pioneer Award in
    >Medicine this year, for this ongoing research.  Walter Grotz, in
    >particular, has been touring and lecturing extensively on the benefits
    >of self-administered H202, literally saving lives wherever he goes, and
    >brining hope to people who had been told their cases were hopeless. 

    If this is the case why are people dying? Remember I know someone who
    has had this treatment to "cure" him of AIDS and it certainly did not
    help him.

    Now I have deleted a large section concerning who is using
    hyperoxygenation. Let me say just this; there are no papers published
    on using hyperoxygenation to cure any infectious internal disease. Many
    of the supposed references to renowned journals I found to be relating
    to something else, or non existent. For example there were 3 references
    to the Lancet. I checked all three, one did not exist, or the date was
    out by 3 months and none covered treating malaria by using H2O2.

    I ran most of the names of the doctors mentioned through the data base.
    As you supply the family name and the initial(s) for the search you can
    pull work by other doctors who have the same name and initial. However
    as it is quite easy to spot them as doctors who publish research
    articles tend to be highly specialised. Here is a list of my findings.

           AUTHOR:  REFERENCES    COMMENTS
        GROTZ W          3        None relevant
        DONSBACH RC     10        None relevant
        MAGRATH          1        None relevant
        PAULING L       65        None relevant
        JAY              3        One  relevant, see �.
        BARNARD CN     153        None relevant
        GERSON          14        None relevant
        MCGRATH T       17        None relevant
        PREUSS A         4        None relevant

�
Finney JW  Jay BE  Race GJ  Urschel HC  Mallams JT  Balla GA  
Removal of cholesterol and other lipids from experimental animal and
     human atheromatous arteries by dilute hydrogen peroxide.
Angiology (1966 Apr) 17(4):223

    Interesting to note the date, 1966, a thing they omitted to mention, and
    the point that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the immune system
    or AIDS. Unfortunately an abstract was not on line which could have let
    us find out the method of administering the H2O2. However I did do a
    follow up check on it and it seems that there has been no further work
    done in this area in the last 26 years, so I doubt if it was a very
    successful experiment.
    
    Just as a point of interest I checked up on Lourdes. The system gives
    you cross references, this is the list that it pulled with my request, I
    found the 8th one slightly amusing.

    1     LOURDES     9
    2   * MENTAL HEALING   412
    3   * RELIGION AND MEDICINE  3201
    4   * DRAMA   588
    5   * MEDICINE IN LITERATURE  1362
    6   * HOSPITALS 31589
    7   * HOSPITALS, VOLUNTARY  1970
    8   * MALPRACTICE 10855
    9   * CATHOLICISM  
    
    Alas none gave the chemical composition of the water.
    
    >The oxywater regimen improves alertness, reflexes, memory and
    >apparently intelligence, and may offer the elderly a new weapon against
    >senility and related disorders. Alzheimer's and Parkinson's are
    >reported to be responding to it. 

    It seems to be turning into a regular panacea, and this causes me to be
    most suspicious. This suspicion is increased by the fact that that in
    the four years since the publication of this none of these claims have
    been proved.

    >Alcoholics who start taking H202 soon lose interest in alcohol, and the
    >thirst does not come back. 

    Again no recorded cases.

    >Look up what alcohol does with your blood oxygen and your ability to
    >use it, and you'll see why.

    OK I did look it up. Alcohol does not do anything to your blood
    oxygen levels. The only place that oxygen becomes involved is in your
    liver where it is used to break down the alcohol. The amount of oxygen
    used for this process, which takes quite a long time, does not
    appreciably reduce blood oxygen level. Again we have been told lies.
    

    >It's strange that the common drug aspirin stops pain by interfering
    >with the nervous system's ability to use oxygen, in the electrochemical
    >reactions needed to transmit impulses. 
 
    No it isn't strange, actually it isn't even true. Aspirin inhibits the
    body from producing Prostaglandin, a hormone-like fatty acid that
    amongst other things assists the pain sensing nerves in some parts of
    the body in detecting pain. It does not stop the transmission of the
    signal, just the detection. Were aspirin able to interfere with the
    transmission of the signal then all the other senses would be deadened
    by it too. BTW oxygen is not involved in this process. It is becoming
    obvious this man hasn't a clue about the subject in hand.

    Hydrogen Peroxide in Nature
 
    >Fresh fruit juices are well known for their blood-cleansing and
    >revitalizing capabilities, particularly when they are not combined with
    >other foods; this is largely due to the H202 they contain.
    >Reconstituted frozen juices have much less, and are no longer alive
    >thus they are not nearly as effective.
 
    Cleansing the blood of what? As far as I can research fruit juices
    contain no H2O2 at all. BTW neither fresh or reconstituted fruit juice
    is alive.

    >Mother's milk contains a high amount of H202, especially colostrum, the
    >first milk secreted after birth, which activates the newborn's immune
    >system. 

    OK here are the contents of human milk and colostrum.  All values are
    units of weight per deciliter.
    
                       milk	colostrum

    Water, g 		88 	
    Lactose, g		 6.8    5.3
    Protein, g		 1.2    2.7
    Fat, g		 3.8    2.9
    Sodium, mg		15     92
    Potassium, mg	55     55
    Chloride, mg	43    117
    Calcium, mg		33     31
    Magnesium, mg	 4      4
    Phosphorous, mg	15     14
    Iron, mg	         0.15   0.09
    Vitamin A, ug	53     89
    Vitamin D, ug	 0.03
    Thiamine, ug	16     15
    Riboflavin, ug	43     30
    Nicotinic acid, ug 172     75
    Ascorbic acid, mg	 4.3    4.4

    Now you will notice that H2O2 is totally missing. The boost to the
    baby's immune system  comes from antibodies which the baby uses for
    about the first 3 months until it can produce its own.

    So the claim to it being present in mother's milk is an outright lie.
    Mind you the hormone that causes lactation [secretion of milk] is
    called Oxytocin and they may have got this word confused with Oxygen.

    >H202 is the first line of the body's defense systems, and key to many
    >other metabolic processes. Under conditions of optimum health, H202 is
    >produced by the body's immune system in whatever amounts are needed to
    >quickly destroy any invading pathogens, which can then get the upper
    >hand and cause visible disease.
 
    Absolute rubbish. I have just read an entire chapter on the subject in
    a review of medical physiology, the immune system does not require a
    supply of H2O2 to work.

    >When penicillin is effective against infection, it is largely due to
    >the formation of bactericidal amounts of H202, when glucose is oxidized
    >by 01 in the presence of penicillium notarin. (General Biochemistry,
    >Fruton & Simonds 557.1 F922 p.339)

    Actually penicillin acts through the inhibition of the biosynthesis of
    the cell wall mucopeptide. [It stops the bacteria from properly
    reproducing]

    >Much has been made of the healing properties of Interferon, but it is
    >unbelievably expensive. 

    It is also almost useless at healing on its own as it appears to be an
    integral part of the immune system.

    >However, much of its effectiveness is apparently due to the fact that
    >it stimulates production of H202 and other oxygen intermediates, which
    >are a key factor in reactivating the immune system. (Journal of
    >Interferon Research, Vol. 3, #2, 1983 p. 143-151.) Thus Interferon may
    >turn out to be simply a very elaborate way to accomplish essentially
    >the same thing as the H202 regimen.

    When I looked up the way interferon worked in a book published 8 years
    after the one above I found no reference to interferon producing H2O2.
    What it does do is activate certain other cells which then deal with
    the invader. So once more we have been fed a line of rubbish.

    I also looked up the article in the Journal of Interferon Research. It
    covers the activation of NK [Non Killer] cells by oxygen intermediates.
    It does not mention H2O2.

    Having now followed up several of the references given I am getting the
    distinct impression that the author just grabbed any paper that
    mentioned oxygen in a favourable light and twisted the findings to suit
    his own purpose.

    >Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) has long been recognized as essential to the
    >proper use of oxygen by the cells. 

    In fact vitamin C is listed as a anti-oxidant. It is used to maintain
    healthy connective tissues and the integrity of cell walls. It also
    necessary for the synthesis of collagen, a protein.

    >Dr. Linus Pauling has demonstrated that large doses of vitamin C are
    >effective against cancer. The mainstream medical community still has
    >not acknowledged this discovery, let alone put it to use, despite Dr.
    >Pauling's previous credentials.  

    Perhaps if the doctor published some of his findings, thus put them to
    the rigors of others repeating his experiments and getting the same
    results, he might find fame and fortune. Of course on the other hand
    they might just prove that he cannot justify his claims and this could
    be the reason that he has yet to publish.

    >As it turns out, vitamin C actually creates extra H202 in the body.

    As it turns out, it doesn't.

    >Organic Germanium (bis-carboxyethyl germanium sesquioxide) is gaining
    >increasing recognition as a potent healing substance, primarily through
    >the work of Dr. Kazuhiko Asai. This compound directly increases the
    >body's oxygen supply, as it contains a great deal of oxygen in a form
    >that can be easily assimilated. (See miracle Cure: Organic Germanium by
    >Dr. Asai, Japan Publications, Inc., Tokyo and New York.)

    Well Dr Asai has not bothered to publish his findings in the
    conventional manner. However I decided to check up and find out what
    was known about Organic Germanium. Well for starters not a lot. There
    were exactly 4 articles on the subject in the entire data base. Here is
    a brief resum� of their contents

    The first, dated 1986, covers the inhibiting effect of the derivatives
    of it on some obscure enzymes and has nothing to do with healing.

    The second, dated 1987, covers its affect on macrophages dealing with
    tumour cells, it causes a slight improvement.

    The third, dated 1990, covers the hopotensive and bradycardial effects
    (dropping the blood pressure and slowing the heart) in rats.

    The fourth, dated 1991, covers its toxic effects in rats.

    Not a mention of miraculous healing, nor for that matter oxygen. 
    
    >Taheebo (aka Pau D Arco or Lapacho Colorado) is a tree that grows in
    >the Andes and fixes high concentrations of oxygen in crystalline form
    >into its bark.  The bark has been used for centuries by the native
    >peoples of the area to prevent and reverse illnesses, and it is one
    >reason why they do not get cancer. In recent years it has become
    >popular in the US, and it gets by the FDA as an herbal tea  whose
    >distributors wisely make no medical claims for it. Again, much of its
    >effectiveness is apparently due to its high oxygen content, released in
    >solution when brewed as a tea.

    Now back at school, in the science lessons I was told that if you
    heated water you drove out all the gasses that were dissolved in it. So
    all the oxygen should bubble out when you make the tea. But if some
    manages to dissolve and later come out of solution in your intestines,
    it will not be absorbed, however later you may suffer from flatulence.
 
    >There are several very common practices that drop a person s oxygen
    >level far below where it should ideally be.  At sea level, 20% of the
    >atmosphere is supposed to be oxygen, but city air gets down as low as
    >10%, due to smog and removal of trees. 

    Oops we appear to have forgotten a major air pollutant caused by the
    automobile, ozone. Problems experienced with breathing polluted air
    come not from reduced oxygen levels but rather from the pollutants
    which make the taking up of available oxygen difficult.

    >Air that tastes bad induces a tendency to breathe shallowly, getting
    >even less oxygen to the blood. So does lack of exercise. But the
    >implications of constant gradual oxygen starvation in our cities
    >somehow escape notice, despite the tiredness, depression, irritability,
    >poor judgment and health problems affecting so many citizens.
  
    Now here the implication is the low oxygen, and one must assume the
    higher than normal levels of carbon dioxide present in the city air
    makes you breath shallowly. Fact, carbon dioxide stimulates you to
    breath, that is why there is a cylinder of carbon dioxide on the
    anesthetics machine.

    >The carbon monoxide (CO) in smog does not normally occur in nature in
    >much quantity since it's formed by incomplete combustion of carbon
    >compounds. It is electrically unbalanced, so it seeks to bond with any
    >available oxygen to form the more stable carbon dioxide (C02). Those
    >who breath too much carbon monoxide tend to die, fast or slow depending
    >on the concentration. It strips oxygen molecules from the blood to form
    >C02, which the body can't use and must exhale, at least until its
    >oxygen runs out. 

    Again misinformation. The truth is the carbon monoxide has a greater
    affinity to the haemoglobin, and as it cannot be used like oxygen it
    will not be replaced by a molecule of CO2. So that molecule of
    haemoglobin is now out of action until it can get rid of the CO
    molecule.

    >The fact that the body considers C02 a waste product, by the way,
    >doesn't say much for carbonated beverages.

    Scare mongering. When our bodies breaks down a hydrocarbon molecule to
    get energy we have two waste products, a molecule of carbon dioxide and
    a molecule of water. Mind you carbonated beverages are full of water
    molecules too. Also remember that H2O2 is considered as a waste product
    by your body.

    >Tap water is very low in oxygen, having had no opportunity to be
    >aerated during its journey through the pipes, and being loaded down
    >with chlorine and various contaminants. Since cooking drives the extra
    >oxygen out of vegetables, if one's diet is mostly cooked or processed
    >foods, there's yet another oxygen source  lost.
 
    So what? You do not ingest oxygen through your digestive tract. Plus
    the fact that any water that is heated during cooking has the oxygen
    driven out of it.

    >Even just eating daily without ever giving the gastrointestinal tract a
    >rest, loads down the blood with toxins and impurities, especially uric
    >acid crystals. Under a microscope, interestingly enough, these resemble
    >tiny coffin-lids. When the waste products exceed the cleanings capacity
    >of the kidneys, the blood ends up having to just haul it around the
    >body and stash it wherever possible.  The blood's primary function of
    >picking up and distributing oxygen gets blocked by overuse of the
    >garbage-hauling function.

    Again scare mongering. There is normally no build up of toxins in the
    blood. If there was you would be quite ill. The blood is cleaned by
    primarily the kidneys, and to a lesser extent the liver. Consider the
    fact that many people have only one kidney and some only one lobe of
    their liver. If there was this sort of toxic build up these people
    would be very ill indeed. Also none of the garbage-hauling functions of
    the blood use any part of the O2/CO2 transportation function, to suggest
    that one interferes with the other is pure bunk.

    BTW the toxic build up, autointoxication, is a standard con and was
    disproved almost 50 years ago by experimentation. 

    >Once the blood is cleansed the red corpuscles have a lot more room for
    >oxygen molecules, the oxygen saturation of the tissues is high, and
    >health and energy are boosted considerably. Each breath now gives more
    >life than it was able to in the blood's earlier state. 

    Unless you have cyanide or carbon monoxide in you haemoglobin then the
    above is rubbish. Of course if you smoke you do keep a fairly high
    blood carbon monoxide level.

    >Most long-lived native peoples, who are not affected by our more common
    >diseases, either include fasting as a regular part of their yearly food
    >cycles, or eat much less overall, than industrialized peoples. 

    Well if you look at the figures you will find that industrialized
    peoples tend to live a lot longer than those in the 3rd world. BTW I
    always thought that it was the people who lived in mountains that lived
    the longest. Mind you they wouldn't mention it in here, there is less
    oxygen at high altitudes.

    >Today many Americans are existing at such high levels of toxicity, that
    >their toxic reactions when attempting to fast can seem intense enough
    >to make them start eating again before any serious cleansing can be
    >accomplished.

    Back to scare mongering again. Notice the toxins are never named. They
    are always vague about that, the reason being they don't exist.

    >Fortunately one can partially bypass the lungs and get the blood oxygen
    >level back up, by taking oxygenated water internally and through the
    >skin. Several weeks of detoxification with this regimen will also make
    >it much easier to fast without discomfort, if one chooses.  It reduces
    >appetite, logically enough, to a level more in line with the body s
    >actual needs. The bacteria that aid digestion are not killed by oral
    >use of H202, as long as it s diluted properly.
 
    And now we get to the punch line. Having scared you into believing you
    are sick they offer the miracle cure, in this case, drink bleach.

    >Humans aren't the only life form that benefits from compensation for
    >their oxygen-deficient air, water and/or lifestyle.  H202 in animal's
    >drinking water, not enough to taste unpleasant, knocks out a growing
    >list of illnesses.  Locally, cats have gotten rid of their feline
    >leukemia and chlamydia, and are back to their old energetic slapstick
    >selves. Distemper in dogs has been reversed with H202, and a growing
    >number of farmers are applying it to their livestock to cut losses from
    >disease and infected wounds.

    Well the bit about using it to cleanse wounds is correct, but the rest
    is total rubbish. We own two pedigree cats and know all the dangers of
    feline diseases, which can be cured and which can be vaccinated
    against. Feline leukaemia is a killer and your cats must have a
    negative blood test before you can sent them to be mated. As kittens
    the cats were vaccinated against chlamydia. Neither of these can be
    cured by H2O2. I checked with our Vet and she has never heard of any
    dog being cured of Distemper by this method.
    
    So this time what is the excuse for the fame of these cures not being
    trumpeted from the roof tops? As animals with infectious terminal
    illnesses are usually put down, the old perennial conspiracy theory
    about those with vested interests suppressing the information doesn't
    work. However the theory that the claims are total fabrications fits
    the known facts exactly.
    
    >Plants grow better with an ounce of 3% H202 per quart of water they're
    >given.  Spray the solution on their leaves as well.  Seeds germinate
    >faster, with bigger sprouts, when they are first soaked in 1 ounce of
    >3% H202 to a pint of water. Instead of cutting trees that are diseased
    >or otherwise struggling, spray them with H202 and water (1 part 3% to
    >32 parts water).
 
    Oops mistake here. CO2 is a waste product for animals but it is vital
    for plants. They use the CO2 molecule along with a water molecule plus
    some energy from sunlight to produce a molecule of hydrocarbon. Of
    course there is a waste product in this operation, a molecule of
    oxygen. Why steep the plant in its own waste product? How exactly will
    this make it healthy?

    >Why Isn t This Already In Use?

    Well because it doesn't work would seem a fair answer.
 
    >The obvious question is, if hyperoxygenation is so simple and
    >effective why has it taken so long to discover it? Ozone is hardly new
    >and hydrogen peroxide has been on the market for over a century. Why
    >aren't all the doctors already using it? How come this story isn t all
    >over the major news outlets?

    >Turning the question around helps clarify the problem. Just exactly
    >what would happen if a cure was discovered that was completely
    >effective against the vast majority of diseases, ridiculously cheap and
    >plentiful, and in most cases, could be self-administered without a
    >physician?

    I feel that the good old conspiracy theory is about to strike yet
    again.

    >Would the current medical establishment welcome a break-through that
    >could render 98% of all drugs, testing and disease-related surgery
    >obsolete? What would the response be of the pharmaceutical
    >industrialists, hospital chain owners, health insurance moguls, AMA and
    >FDA?

    >Would you expect to read or hear such an announcement from any medical
    >journal or media outlet owned by people financially committed to the
    >medical status quo, which is practically all of them? How many want to
    >help their own occupation become unnecessary?

    Bingo! Consider the massive and successful effort to eradicate smallpox
    from the face of the planet. Consider all the once terminal conditions
    that killed children in my parent's day. Why didn't the great
    conspiracy stop these cures? Remember there is a world out side the
    USA, a fact conveniently forgotten in this article, where research, the
    practice of medicine both conventional and unconventional are not
    controlled by American institutions. BTW any cheap form of medical
    treatment is encouraged by the medical insurance companies, it saves
    them from having to pay out money.

    Now four years have passed since the original publication of this
    article. There is no way in the world that its claims could be
    suppressed, if they were true. However as they are false, running the
    entire gamut of falsehood from slight misrepresentation to out right
    lies, it would appear that they have been justifiably ignored.

    While I was rooting around in the medical references I went on to look
    up any harmful side effects. It appears that if you put someone on
    oxygen at a partial pressure of more than 80% you have a time limit.
    H2O2 is formed in the lungs and this inhibits the work of the
    macrophages [the sort of rubbish collectors that kill off micro
    organisms.] This in turn causes the level of bacteria in the lungs to
    rise. If the exposure continues beyond 24-48 hours lung damage can
    ensue.

    I would advise readers not to drink or inject themselves with hydrogen
    peroxide or to inhale the poisonous gas ozone. 

    Jamie.

    Jamie,
    
    It's not clear from your comments that you are aware that there is
    a vaccine against FeLV.  It was developed at Tufts University's
    School of Veterinary Medicine.  (One of the trial patients was
    Steve Kallis' eldest cat.)
    
    						Ann B.

    Great news I wonder when it will be released over here.

    Jamie.

Well, although I don't really like Jamie's
style and I don't understand his motives - my
hat is off to him for doing a thorough job
of research.

John D.

    >I don't understand his motives

    Oh permit me to explain. A gay friend of mine who is suffering from
    AIDS fell for the con and was gently relieved of all his savings, I
    also found out over the holiday period that they then went on to con
    his lover out of his savings too. The entire thing was a waste of
    money and I doubt if my friend will live long enough to see the summer.

    Put the effort on my part down to a sense of duty to make sure that
    these people do not prey on the lack of medical knowledge of those who
    are suffering. In reality it was a labour of love.

    Jamie.  

    
    >In reality, it was a labour of love.
    
    And it shows, Jamie.  Thank you.
    
    Cindy

    Jamie,
    
     I'm usually only a read only person, but I had to reply to thank you
    for that great note! I enjoyed every word of it.
    
     There has been advertising over here lately for something called an
    "Oxygen Cocktail", which is supposed to super oxyginate the blood or
    something to make you have more energy, and make you a better runner,
    jumper, sports person in general I guess. All your research verified
    the fact that I thought it was bunk to start with.
    
    Thanks so much for the time and effort you put in. I'm sure your
    friends thank you too.
    
    Love,
    
    Y