Conference hydra::dejavu

    Of course there can...
    
    Too bad you took out that line about saying goodbye to the "machine
    age"... I rather liked that analogy.

    
    I think there is so much "olde" age in new age, because when "science"
    came into its own, so much of what was considered "magic" became
    undesirable. The old pendulum swing to the extreme point. Now that we
    are sufficiently mature in scientific terms, we can again look at the 
    ancient beliefs and see what there is there that we can reconcile with
    the scientific truths.
    
    Sort of like medicinal herbs and acupuncture........
    
    
    Marilyn

  Further to .2 (Marilyn), some of the "old magic" was considered undesirable
  on religious/doctrinal grounds, some on scientific grounds.  Now we have
  matured beyond the point where blind adherence to specific interpretations
  of religions is the norm, our minds begin to open again.  Similarly, although
  the earlier 'scientific' view was correct within that frame of reference, the
  frame itself has been enlarged and examined such that the 'borderline' ideas
  are now within rather than without the realm of accepted knowledge.

  The opening of the mind is the key to the future : it is no better to reject
  all of a doctrine - be it orthodox Christianity or traditional [analytical]
  science - than it is to blindly accept it as the "only true way", what is
  needed is the ability to integrate the confusing array of interpretations
  and evolve a more holistic attitude to the world around us.

  Frank

    
    re .3
    
    I agree, Frank.
    
>    why then is there so much "olde age" stuff in the "new age" stuff?
    
     Ever notice how the more things change, the more they stay the same?
    
>    what does "magic" have to do with "religion"?
    
     It's the basis of it, I think.
    
>    "we all" know about auras, charkas, astral projection, etc., but what 
>    do talismans, mantras, numerology, palmistry, tarot, et. al., have to 
>    do with the "new consciousness" which the age of aquarius is to
>    signify?
    
     Toys... tools... games...
        
>    what planet rules aquarius?
>    which planet is in detriment in aquarius?
>    and how to they relate to the spiritual progression of mankind?
    
     Carole... help!
    
>    how can there be a marriage between science & superstitions?
    
     What is the difference between science and superstition?
     Much of yesterday's science is considered superstition today.
     Some of today's superstition will be science tomorrow.
     
     It works that way sometimes... of course,... sometimes it doesn't :-)

HAMER::MONTALVO 
    
>    will the 'new age' be just mind-over-matter with varifiable results?
    
     Not 'just' ... but that will be part of it, I'll bet.
      
>    how will, or are, 'miracles' explained according to science? 
    
    I don't know... Science seldom tells us the good stuff. :-)
        
>    what will the priest of the 'new age' wear? 
    
    Whatever he wants.. 
    
    >what will be his doctrine?
    
    This above all ... love one another..
    
>    what will be his scripture? and what role will 'science' play.
    
    The words will be written on his heart.  Science plays the same role
    it always plays one would think... just instead of breaking things down
    to study them, it puts them back together.    
    
>    when buddhism met tao, zen was born.
>    when religion meets science, what will the offspring look like?
    
     Quantum physics, I'll bet... a lot like quantum physics...    

    > why then is there so much "olde age" stuff in the "new age" stuff?
    >what does "magic" have to do with "religion"?
    
    >"we all" know about auras, charkas, astral projection, etc., but what 
    >do talismans, mantras, numerology, palmistry, tarot, et. al., have to 
    >do with the "new consciousness" which the age of aquarius is to
    >signify?
    
    Because most of the 'new consciousness' is a fake, promulgated by
    misfits, the self-deluded and those preying on their gullibility.
    
    REAL teachers are hard to find, don't advertise in 'Magical Blend',
    don't give big-bux weekend 'transformational' workshops.  Since this
    'movement' is populated mostly by unimaginative fakes, it's not
    surprising they just recycle the same old same old.
    
    Want a REAL teacher ?  Read "Listen, Humanity".  See, I'm not totally
    cynical, just careful.
    
    karl

SALSA::MOELLER 
    
>    Because most of the 'new consciousness' is a fake, promulgated by
>    misfits, the self-deluded and those preying on their gullibility.
    
     Sort of like the dreams of wealth that the stock brokers promulgate?
    :-)
        
    Karl.. those things you talked about are social... a lot of the things
    people do in organized religions are social too.  They're not "looking
    for a teacher"... they're looking for a little fun and some company.
    
HAMER::MONTALVO 
    
>    with each new age, an avatar appears. too bad we won't know who
>    'he/she' is until they are dead. we kill all the prophets.
    
     Then maybe it's a good idea that we don't know who the avatar is. :-)    
    
>    why is the 'truth' so hard to accept?
    
     Because we each live our own dream.
    
>    what is 'truth'? the truth which can be said is not the truth.
    
     If it happens, it's real... if it can't be said, it's truth. :-)    
    
>    what place will all the pychics have in the new order?
    
    Navigator.. narrator... Greek chorus...  protector...
        
>    quantum: what was at one place appears at another without us 'seeing'
>    it travel there. disappearance & re-appearance; movement without
>    moving. thoughts without thinking?
     
     a smile on the face of He Who Has No Face..
    
>    what 'religion' will be merging with science? will this be a blend of
>    all religions? 
    
     All of them...     
    
what can bring all religions into one? the gun?
    
    Compassion.. understanding... tolerance.. love
    
>    in the whole history of man, how many years have been without war?
    
     none probably..
    
>    how then does one stop hating one's brother? 
    
     Just stop... just choose to stop and stop.
    
    >will all national boundaries have to be dropped? will they be picked up 
    >again later like yugoslavia? will it have to be one world-nation, one 
    >world-religion, one world-currency? one ruler???
    
    Look at the pictures NASA sent back of Earth from space.  It *is* one
    world right now.. the boundaries are in our minds.. they are invisible
    lines that we have created and that we pertetuate... and they are every
    where.. in neighborhoods.. in cities.. in states and in countries..
    they are the way we view our place on the planet.. they're not
    important.. don't worry about them... neither do we need a single
    political or religious or economic system.. the systems evolve to meet
    the needs of the people naturally.. that's happening now.    
    You worry too much. :-)

    >they're looking for a little fun and some company.
     
    How true.  Amen.
    
    karl

    Ahhh, .8 Some common-sense at last.
    
    Laurie.

re .8 (Karl)

YES, hear-hear !

-Svein

PS The book you mentioned "Listen, humanity", who has written it ?
   And whats it about ?

HAMER::MONTALVO 
    
>    then we are all disillusioned.
    
     Maybe.. it seems to be a common natural state for humanity. :-)
    
>    we are lying to ourselves.
    
     We've been known to lie to ourselves.  Do you choose to lie to
    yourself?
    
>    how can we have a 'goal' which is against exsistance?
    
     "We" don't have a goal which is against existence.  You are
    disillusioned... you lie to yourself. :-)
    
>    i doubt philosophy will live. there will either be doubt or belief.
>    those who 'know' will neither doubt nor believe. 
    
     There is always doubt and belief.. those who 'know' also doubt and
     believe... why do you think that will change?
    
>    the age of pisces is coming to a close. if pisces which exemplifies
>    compassion did not teach us anything, then what will aquarius which
>    is ruled by uranus & saturn 'teach' us?
    
     You're the astrologer... you tell us.
    
>    man will be thrown back unto himself. lightening changes and heavy
>    burdens due to karmic responsibilities will break man or transform him.
    
     What else is new? :-) ... that's how it is now..
    
>    humanity will not listen; for, for there to be a humanity, humans must
>    be one. governments & religion have enslaved humanity. how then will the
>    chains be unleashed?
    
     Humans are one already... they are a single species.  Governments &
    religions are modes of expression... there are no chains except those
    which we place upon ourselves.... accept unto our own minds.
    
    
>    how can 'science' destroy politics? 
    
     Why should science destroy politics?  Why do you want that?
    
    
>    someone should have told christ & mansoor. they thought 'we' were
>    looking for someone to save us.
    
     Christ lived in a different time.. He knew a different people.
    
    I've never heard of "mansoor".  Who is it?
    
    
>    is our 'search' just a game? 
    
    Of course. :-)
    
    
    >we make up the game, we make up the rules as we go along, 
    
    yep...
    
    >and only we can win? 
    
    Depends upon the kind of person you are.  Is that what *you* want?  That
    only *you* win?
    
    >self delussion. our 'yogas' &
    >'charkas' and 'hail mary's' are placebo pills for the reality we
    >create.
    
    They are a part of the reality we create... as the sunset is part of
    the reality that has been created for us.
    

HAMER::MONTALVO 
    
>    what's a greek chorus?
    
     They tell the tale.
    
>    mansoor was a sufi (please correct me if i am remiss) who when upon
>    declaring "i am allah" (one with god), was torn bit by bit. inch by
>    inch of his skin was torn off. then the hacking started....
>    when the 'part' realizes the exsistance of the 'whole', he becomes
>    the 'whole'. this is what he was declaring. the muslims killed him
>    to stop their ears from hearing the 'truth'.
>    just another 'prophet' being killed.... 
    
     They couldn't just walk away from him, I suppose, huh?  Cheaper
     than ear plugs, I guess.    
    
>    the 'enlightened' have no chance of survival among the masses.
    
     Not if they claim to be enlightened, I'll bet.... 
    
>    those who 'know' now know better. they have to let 'humanity' wallow
>    in their crystals, mantras, prayers which no one hears, ignorance &
>    beliefs, dreams & hopes, miseries & frustrations.
    
     There are a lot of parts to the game.. people play in different ways..
    
>    the man of tao always keeps silent; the sufi works his trade in quiet 
>    diligence least the masses find him, kill him, and then worship him.
>    there MUST have been enlightened women. why haven't we heard of them?
    
     :-) ... because women know that the masses would find her, kill her
    and then forget her (never mind the worship stuff) a heck of a lot 
    faster than they would a man.  And maybe women are better at keeping 
    secrets. :-)
        
>    it is so easy to worship the dead. they don't talk back...
    
    Convenient .. isn't it.
        
>    and to forget, we do est, tm, NLP, hypnosis, aura readings, et. al.
    
     .. or to remember...
        
>    is this what the age of aquarius holds for us? speak not to me about
>    saving the whale and the owl, the sea & land & air, the unborn and
>    the starving. "we" each are in our own little world; safe in our
>    dreams; alive in our hopes; fearful of ghosts, praying for this and
>    that.
    
      We choose what it holds.. 
    
      The whale, the owl, the sea and land and air .... the unborn and the
      starving... they are not saved with words but with choices.
    
      What do you choose, Questioner?  What do you want?
    
>    we are "lazarus".
>    we are dead.
>    our bodies are stinking.
>    and there is no christ to bring us back to life.
>    and if we hear our names being called, would we answer?
    
     You are the body of God
     You have seen the very first light of existence
     Your body is made of atoms that have existed since the beginning of
     time
     It is a temple for the Divine that you are
     You play a game here with yourself
     Life is the game
     Why do you do this?  Ask yourself.. then choose
    

    
    >>    what's a greek chorus?
    >
    >     They tell the tale.
    
    
    They are more than that.  Greek plays (from Greece's Golden Age?)
    involved the main characters (for example Oedipus) and a "chorus" of
    people who commented on/accented the dialog and situations of the main
    characters.
    
    Beth

    
    .20
    
    That's true, Beth.
    
HAMER::MONTALVO 
    
    Yea.. I must have been a stand-up comic in another life. :-)
    
    >if the end of the world is not going to come about, then what will 
    >the future of "spiritualism" be? 
    
    The world never actually 'ends'... the world as we've known it to be
    ends but that's the nature of change, right?
    
    I personally think it's going to be a combination of what it is now
    with what it was before spiritualism became institutionalized, ...
    but evolved into a modern version... influenced by the spiritualism of 
    the indigenous cultures ... just a hunch, of course.. but that's the
    way things seem to evolve.
    
    >time to listen to the surf....
    
    Always time for that. :-)
    
    mary

    "Listen, Humanity" is by Meher Baba, who died in 1969.  Of natural
    causes. ;-)
    
    Actually, Mansur-al Hallaj said "Ana'l Haqq", which means "I am the 
    Truth".
    
    Women ?  Rabia of Basri comes to mind.  In our lifetimes, Therese' 
    Neumann, Ananda Moi Ma and some others whose names escape me right now.
    
    karl

    I've never heard of any of those women, Karl.  Where did you read about
    them?  I'd be interested in reading that book.

    
    Re.24
    
    Mary,
    
    "Autobiography Of A Yogi", by Yogananda, for starters.
    
    Therese' Von Neumann and Ananda Moi Ma (sometimes written as something
    different - Ananda Mayi Ma?) both have entire chapters dedicated to
    them in the book.  Also, the head of the Self-Realization Fellowship -
    the organization that Yogananda founded - is Sri Daya Mata, one of his
    direct and handpicked disciples.  She's an amazing woman.
    
    There is also a book out on Woman Saints of India.  I read an
    excerpt/article in one of the yoga magazines I subscribe too, and a
    woman named Asha Ma was featured.  I went to be in her presence down 
    in Boston at the Iyengar Center a few months ago and it was and 
    awesome experience.
    
    Cindy

    Thanks, Cindy.
    
    Rabia of Basra was a famous 12th-century Sufi, and is in lots of books.
    Closer to our lifetime is Hazrat Babajan, a very prominent woman Sufi
    from India, died in 1919.  She was reputed to be one of the 5 Qutubs,
    or 'pillars'.. a Perfect Master.
    
    karl