Conference hydra::dejavu

    It's been my experience that when one speculates about stuff like this
    someone is bound to come along and bash you on the head with a two
    by four.  I think I'll pass this time around... 
    
    And the sign said, "dreaming is prohibited"

    > someone is bound to come along and bash you on the head with a two
    >by four.

    but, this is Dejovu notes file!
    
    I thought people here don't do these things, i was told to come note here 
    because people who hang around this note file are kind, gentle, 
    highly regarded, spiritual people, non-violent, softly spoken, esteemed, 
    refined, elevated, and totally divined.

    I've been screamed at a lot in other notes files, and I'am hoping
    to finally find a safe heaven in this file.

    now, back to speculations about how other people live on other planets.
    
    thank you ,
    /Nasser
    I spelled checked

    I am looking forward to Marcos and Nasser "meeting" each other in here.
    

    Nasser, you're welcome to note in here.  This seems like a safe
    note to begin with.  There may be various opinions, but then 
    you haven't claimed to be from another world.  That's sort of 
    a hard thing for some individuals to take and that's basically
    when things get a bit fiesty (and they do in here now and then).
    
    I'm sure Marcos and Nasser will get along.  Right Marcos?  :^)
    
    Now everyone be nice and answer sincerely.  Topher back yet?
    
    Joanne

    That's not the way I remember it.

    see, I knew Marcos would be nice.  :^)
    
    Joanne

VAXRIO::MARCOS                                       
    
    I wasn't talking about you, Marcos... and as I recall the last argument
    in here had nothing to do with extraterrestrials.. it was a 
    stream-of-consciousness attempt at a magickial operation that set it
    off.. which only goes to prove that the Sphinx is right.. to Know, to
    Will, to Dare and to *Keep Silent*.
    
    Sorry for any confusion... as my kids would say.. it wasn't me.. :-)

    Many, many great Science Fiction writers have speculated about life
    forms on other planets.  Perhaps that conference would be a fertile
    ground for this type of topic.
    
    karl

>
>    It's been my experience that when one speculates about stuff like this
>    someone is bound to come along and bash you on the head with a two
>    by four.  I think I'll pass this time around... 

On some planets, its more of an 'e by pi' used :-)

    :-) .. true.

    
    I just read that NASA is sending a sattelite to Mars to see if there
    ever was/is life on Mars.  It will be up their for 600+ days, a Martian
    year.    
    
    A

    Re .2

    >I spelled checked
    
    Well I'm glad that you have learned to use the spelling checker. One
    tiny point about grammar however. It would sound less awkward if you
    said "I checked my spelling" or "I ran the spelling checker on this".

    Yours helpfully.

    Jamie.

    Thanks!
    /Nasser
    I ran the spelling checker on this

    
    
    
    > One tiny point about grammar however.
    
     FRAGMENT :-)
    
    
    David :-)

    I just came back here, and I am catching up, so forgive my late entry.
    
    Beings will be as varied as the different species found on earth.
    
    Terrans are not alone in the Universe, and I believe in the next 50-100
    years we will be contacted by Alien Life Forms, and the interchange
    will be very advantageous.  We will not be contacted while we have
    these barbaric ways, and live in constant strief.  If we can not live 
    in peace together, why bring our kind to the larger universe where we
    can really cause havoc.
    
    What to the life forms look like?  Whatever you can imagine is there..
    
    Water born species, methane/amonia breathing entities.  Whatever we 
    can imagine is placed there by a greater being.  I envision a lot of
    different life forms, some able to fly, using their own wings, but
    having arms and legs as well.  Some covered head to foot with fur or
    feathers.  Some who are different colors, like purple.  I look forward
    to the contact, and wish that I could have the first encounter in 
    Galactic Peace Movement.
    
    Put away your 2 x 4 and make peace...
    
    Somewhere in space and time.
    
    Dave

    You can have the second encounter, ok? :-)

    Re .20

    >Terrans are not alone in the Universe, and I believe in the next 50-100
    >years we will be contacted by Alien Life Forms

    >We will not be contacted while we have these barbaric ways, and live
    >in constant strief

    Are you sure that you should not have added at least one zero to each
    of the above numbers? In the 50 odd years that I have been wandering
    around on this planet I have not noticed any real overall reduction in
    man's inhumanity to man. The Nazis were trying eradicate the Jewish
    race when I came in, now in Bosnia the same game is being played.

    Jamie.                  

    Jamie,
    
    I have about the same number of years as You... I was born in 1940.
    
    I have faith that the human race will reach a point that they have to
    throw these primitive ways away, and love one another.  JUST to
    survive.  I may be off a bit, but I do not think by an order of ten.
    
    But, I am an optomist.  
    
    I believe that hatred is not a natural thing, and must be learned.
    
    I love all people, but some I can dislike a bit.  8-)
    
    Terrans will reach the stars when the ET's are ready to let us.  
    
    Of course, in a few years ET's may come and force us to band together
    to survive.  Then the hatreds will be directed outwardly and not at
    other races/religions.  
    
    Lets hope for the best in humankind.
    
    Dave

    You make a lot of assumptions Dave. The first, and possibly the
    greatest, is that man will give up his habit of killing off his fellow
    man. While you may well be an optimist I can see nothing that seems to
    be indicating even a trend in that direction. Perhaps you could tell us
    if you have noticed any signs of this abating or is it just wishful
    thinking on your part?

    A second point, which you may well wish to consider ie the ETs,  for
    some reason you assume that they will have advanced beyond the concept
    of war, and will come and lead us to the light.

    Question, what happens if they happen to be exactly like us? Remember
    what happened when the technologically advanced Europe started to
    colonize the rest of the world. We didn't exactly lead the natives to
    the light. We had some rather nasty habits, genocide, enslavement and
    the replacement of any religion with Christianity. 

    While I would like to share your optimism I can find nothing to back
    it up.

    Jamie.

    
    I think 'heat seeking' is hyphenated, Jamie.
    
    But I'm not 100% sure.
    
    (;^)
    
    Cindy

    Back to the base note...
    
    As for imagining what other alien civilizations would look like...it's
    kind of hard to imagine because visually we've only had what we've seen
    to go by...
    
    most science fictions movies/shows still show the primary life forms of
    intelligence as being human-like in form...
    
    I remarked as much to a friend once regarding Star Trek The New
    Generation...
    
    "Did you ever notice how almost all the aliens who have evolved to
    become a threat resemble humans?"
    
    Shoot, even the borg are humans and machines mixed...
    romulans and vulcans and the other races are all human like...
    
    even in the book "Battlefield Earth" where the aliens breath an
    atmosphere different than ours, they are basically like humans in their
    physical form...
    
    the aliens that supposedly are abducting humans resemble human physical
    forms with difference...meaning they have a head that rests on a neck,
    they have legs and feet, arms and fingers, they use tools the way we
    do.
    
    Somehow I wonder if maybe some of the other beings are advanced to the
    point where their minds can use the tools and thus, through disuse, if
    evolution is true, maybe their arms would have disappeared...
    
    or if they can fly, why would they still have legs?  (Referencing
    another note) after all, they don't need them for mobility...
    
    just some thoughts...
    

    re:  1708.22-24:
    
    Look at human history...technology did nothing in the way of taming the
    desire to kill and dominate...
    
    before we had significant technological advances, we (as a race) were
    still conquering, dominating, killing...
    
    the Romans came and slaughtered many of the peoples who live in what is
    Europe today...they made everyone abide by their religion and killed
    those who didn't...
    
    The Norsemen faught the Scots/Irish/Picts/etc
    
    The Saxons fought the english...
    
    The English fought about everybody in order to become a major power
    When they came to America they, along with French and others, killed
    and conquered the peoples who lived here...
    
    This has been going on for centuries...all technology did was make it
    easier to kill more people in less time...for instance we can wipe out
    entire cities, millions of people, with one bomb
    now...great...technology enabled that...
    
    Technology has made advancements in saving lives too...through
    medicine, but becoming advanced will not stop something that seems
    innate in the human race...
    
    Even in the day-to-day life...power struggles go on constantly...people
    who want to be on top don't usually think about the people they  may be
    hurting in order to get there.
    
    I think it will take more than advancement or simple time to change
    that
    
    As for an alien race showing up as a threat to the Terran race and us
    banding together to fight them off...
    
    That would most likely be temporary anyway...
    
    If you look at the world wars...we were allies with countries in one
    and at odds with them after...
    
    alliances change as quickly as the wind...
    
    We are allies with Britain today but that wasn't always so and there
    may be a time in the future where it may change...we don't know that,
    so that isn't a given either...
    
    so all the countries of the world band together to wipe out the
    threat...then the threat is gone...are you saying we'd all be friends
    afterwards?
    
    btw:  Anyone remember that piece from Nostradamus where the threat is
    supposed to come from the middle east and all the power nations are to
    band together?
    
    something like that?
    
    I'd like nothing more than to see peace in this world, I just have a
    hard time thinking it would happen considering it hasn't been here for
    thousands and thousands of years and I don't see anything changing to
    get us unified for any one cause...
    
    The differences are more than cultural...nations don't even agree on
    gods and still fight over that!
    
    amazing...
    
    but we can always hope
    

    Re Cindy, as heat seeking is a modern term I doubt if there is a hard
    and fast rule as to whether it is hyphenated or not.

    Re the alien life forms in Star Trek always being humanoid. This may
    well have had more to do with the actors available to play the aliens
    being humanoid, than anything else.

    As to the human race giving up its favourite hobby of killing and
    maiming humans in the extremely brief period of the next 50 years, the
    chances of this happening are almost zero. In fact there is only one
    scenario that I can think up which would ever stop man killing man in
    such short time span, that would be a war in which a doomsday weapon
    was used wiping mankind out entirely.

    Jamie.

    re: aliens as humanoid (STNG)
    
    I disagree with the perception of the STNG scripts relying on
    humanoid extraterrestrials, except possibly as casting convenience.
    
    I strongly suspect that this perception depends on which episodes you
    select to review.
    
    STNG actually has had a number of completely non-humanoid experiments in 
    their scripts, from microscopic organisms to alternate chemical bases 
    and crystalline life forms to 'pure energy' configurations and various
    forms of collective mind, and also artificial life of various kinds.
    There was even a couple of 'pure thought' forms.
    
    All of which are very far from our intuitive notion of humanity.  
    STNG in particular, I think, is fairly unique and creative in that regard.
    
    							todd

Re 1708.26

Writes that its surprising that most of the stories/speculation about
ETs build up a picture of very human-like beings.  This I feel is the
most interesting aspect of the ET stories.

Even the basenote posed the questions in terms of human behaviour.   Is
it possible that we are not as evolved as we think compared to other life
here on earth.  That possibly life evolving at another place and time
would not produce beings which would want to talk, or pose questions, or
use logic, or even use a language as we do.

I must admit that I use a model of evolution to come to my questions.
If I look at a tiger, and wonder 'how many millions of years would it
take for this being to evolve to use language', I would have to arrive
at the question 'why would that being even have to produce 'language'
in order to survive better?'  When I consider any other life here on
earth that doesn't seem to stem from similar roots to humans, I never
come to the conclusion that they should develop language to survive.

If other life doesn't develop language, with its accompanying 'logic',
then why would they pose questions?, or why would they try to get to
other planets?

Wondering...

Dave

    Actually I was referring to the original Star Trek, there almost
    everything was humanoid and mysteriously understood human talk.

    However since then things have changed, "Muppet" style aliens have been
    used to great effect in some films and now on the new Star Trek they
    are having more variation, even if they still have to boldly split the
    odd infinitive on a weekly basis.

    However I would be very surprised if ET life was humanoid.

    Jamie.

    re: .30,
    	Tigers, like apes, are parallel forms to humans, not prior forms.
    	To be consistent with your model, I think you'd
    	have to ask the question of a life form that was a common
    	ancestor of the tiger and of ourselves, like a primitive rodent.
    	Why did one population of them take a turn that developed cognitive 
    	intelligence, and other stripeity fur pajamas and big teeth ?
    	It sounds like that's the question you're asking (?)
    
    >at the question 'why would that being even have to produce 'language'
>in order to survive better?'  When I consider any other life here on
>earth that doesn't seem to stem from similar roots to humans, I never
>come to the conclusion that they should develop language to survive.
    
    In a sense, communication is fundamental to everything we think of
    as life, it is the _form_ of that communication that is different
    from organism to organism.  Biochemistry is all about information
    codes of different types, along with energy conversion codes.
    
    Organisms closer in scale to humans seemingly use increasingly more
    abstract kinds of information codes, which permit more elaborate
    social interaction, and cooperative endeavors.  This is in a sense
    what seems to make them 'survive better.'
    
    SO it seems to me entirely likely that some forms of life, given a long
    enough evolutionary period, and the apparent principle of diversity
    in nature, would develop elaborate communication
    schemes in order to pool their resources.  And others would be 
    completely indifferent to abstract communication.   
    
    Since it still isn't certain exactly why the human cranial size suddenly 
    expanded, though, it's hard to say whether other intelligent forms
    would neccessarily be anything human-like or use anything like
    our spoken or written language.  
    
    Maybe they could use a chemical or electromagnetic communication,
    like some insects do.  That would be pretty well non-humanoid.
    
    							todd

    todd:
    
    Yes, they have other life forms
    
    but not a one of them is a ruling power
    
    they are usually destroyed, i.e.  the crystalline entity
    
    the powers that be, are humanoid like...
    
    i.e.  Klingon
          Romulan
          Vulcan
          Bajorans
          Even those things that are worms take a human host!
    
    none of the micro-organisms are more than a threat the the
    federation...
    something the humanoids destroy....
    
    even that one where the STNG went back in time to the old west after
    they found Data's head in the caverns under the city, those creatures
    weren't humanoid but they were bringing humans back and killing them
    and
    for being so powerful and all, the humanoids still wiped them out
    
    You never see the energy creatures as being powerful beings ... only
    threats...
    
    

    re:  communications
    
    Other species already communicate...in their own language
    
    Dolphins, jungle creatures...bees, to name a few
    
    we may not be able to understand them but they can understand each
    other
    
    they have used their communication skills to survive...
    
    I'm sure on their own level, even cockroaches communicate
    
    To me when I think of other civilizations I think first of where they
    would come from
    
    earth is a planet where all the conditions were right for us to get
    here and survive here, regardless of what your theory of
    creation/evolution is
    
    For example, the earth is the right distance from the sun so that we
    have seasonal changes, a twenty-four hour period in which the sun
    rises, sets, rises...
    
    We have the right distance from the moon so that our tides are on a
    schedule (hi Jim) 
    
    We have the kind of atmospheric mixture that allows us to breath the
    gases that give our bodies and our blood the mixture that allows us to
    survive.
    
    We have the right conditions, the right percentages of all the
    elements...
    
    what are the chances of a planet also condusive to those conditions
    also existing?
    
    Then you have to take into consideration variances, like the fact that
    time may run differently  because of a longer or shorter orbit/year
    
    The sun may be red or orange instead of yellow and that may affect the
    planet...
    
    let's say that the planet is like Venus...gaseous...what kind of life
    forms could exist in those environments?  None that we could imagine
    
    Did you notice how STNG classifies their planets and "M" class is
    habitable?
    
    Amazing how many of those they find during their travels.  I wonder, if
    we ever get to the point where we are traveling, will we really find so
    many "M" class planets?  Will they be like mars?  The moon?  No
    gravity?  No atmosphere?
    
    What if it is a water planet?  98% water?
    
    The kind of conditions that an environment provides, I believe, has a
    great deal of influence on what sort of life will be there.  I think
    too often when we think of other planets we think of conditions like to
    ours..
    
    

    
    Love your new personal name, Todd.  (;^)
    
    Cindy

    re: .34,
    
>    We have the kind of atmospheric mixture that allows us to breath the
>    gases that give our bodies and our blood the mixture that allows us to
>    survive.
    
	Ummm ... from another perspective, we evolved to use     
    	what mixture was *available*, and possibly other mixtures
    	could just as well been conducive to evolution.
    
    	Our intimate dependence on a specific biochemistry on this
    	planet doesn't necccessarily mean that our particular
    	ecological composition is the only one that could have
    	evolved life, or even the only one that could have
    	evolved humanoid life (though that would probably be
    	less likely, I'd guess).
    
>    We have the right conditions, the right percentages of all the
>    elements...
    
	But they are 'right' at least partly because _this_ is where we 
    	appeared !
    
>    what are the chances of a planet also condusive to those conditions
>    also existing?
    
    	We don't know for sure that the conditions would have to be
    	identical to earth's in order for humanoid life to evolve,
    	though it is pretty certain that the form would be at least
    	slightly different from ours in any case.  The sci-fi
    	example of the Vulcans, Klingons, and Terrans being so
    	similar seems unlikely, unless they had a common ancestor.
    
    							todd	

>    Love your new personal name, Todd.  (;^)
    
    	Thanks, Cindy.  It came from a reference in something I was
    	reading about someone's first experience in one of those
    	sensory-deprivation floatation tanks.
    								todd

    For what it is worth, a recent episode explained (justified) why there
    were so many dominant humanoid races -- so close, genetically, in fact,
    that interbreading (e.g., Spock) is possible.

    And they don't speak English -- in fact, I don't think anyone does.
    They appear to have a common language because there is a cranial
    implant called the Universal Translator, which operates by learning
    new languages by a form of specialized telepathy.  The details are
    left obscure, but in one episode, Spock used the power supply from
    one for some purpose or another.

                                         Topher

    "The sci-fi example of the Vulcans, Klingons, and Terrans being so
    similar seems unlikely, unless they had a common ancestor."
    
    I guess you missed that episode.
    
    						Ann B.
    
    No, I'm not being facetious.  There was an episode for which the
    punchline was that the humanoid races of the galaxy were descended
    from a common ancestor, and that it was deliberately done.

    Well, "descended" is not quite the right term.  It was more of a
    process of convergence rather than divergence.  I thought it was a
    rather clever resolution of a horrendous technical difficulty which
    they have had since they introduced Spock.  (Humanoid form can be
    argued by "convergent evolution" which is a mechanism which one can
    find examples of right here on Earth, i.e., the independent icthyoid
    forms of fish, icthyosauri and cetaceans -- but humanoid *genetics*
    cannot).

                                      Topher

    	re: .39,
    
    	I remember vaguely listening to it while it was on in
    	the background and I was doing something else.  I recall
    	there was something about 'clues' left encoded in the
    	DNA of the various races, and needing all of the pieces to decode the
    	secret message.  It was that one, right ?
    
    						todd

    The one where the pieces to the "Galactic puzzle" were all scattered
    about?
    
    That one?
    
    

    The American Heritage Dictionary doesn't list "heat seeking". 
    That says to me the term is too new to show up.
    
    I'd rather see it hyphenated because the words function together as an
    adjective.
    
    Laura

    Imagine other species as below:
    
    1.  A beautiful intelligent creature that is like a large butterfly.
    
    2.  A creature that is like a round ball of intestines.
    
    3.  A crystal creature that must shatter to reproduce.  (must be 
        frightened enough to do so.)
    
    4.  A creature simular to Hawk on Buck Rogers in the 25 th century, but 
        having wings as well as arms and legs.
    
    5.  You use your imagination for more.  Get really bizare.  You could
        be correct.
    
    Dave
    
    ps.  Jamie, you may be right, but I doubt that either of us will be
    around to determine the outcome.  If you are, I'll buy the first round,
    just do not kick the bucket before your turn to buy.  8-)
    
    
    

RE:   <<< Note 1708.24 by HOO78C::ANDERSON "A high speed, heat seeking cat!" >>>

�    the light. We had some rather nasty habits, genocide, enslavement and
�    the replacement of any religion with Christianity. 
    
    In the last few weeks, a "lost" tribe has been discovered in Borneo (or
    is it New Guinea. I forget), said tribe worships a stone. Not a huge
    rock, but a small, human-shaped stone, which they carry around. "Many"
    Methodists missionaries have set off to "convert" these people to the
    "one true God". Bloody disgrace, they should be left alone. Source:
    Daily Telegraph (UK), Saturday 26/6/93.
    
    Laurie.

RE:   <<< Note 1708.28 by HOO78C::ANDERSON "A high speed, heat seeking cat!" >>>

�    Re Cindy, as heat seeking is a modern term I doubt if there is a hard
�    and fast rule as to whether it is hyphenated or not.

    Actually Jamie, I think Cindy is correct. The age of the term is
    irrelevant. In fact, both "heat-seeking" and "high-speed" should be
    hyphenated. A hyphen is used when two normally separate words are used
    together to create a third, and is used to make the link between the
    two unambiguous, such that either cannot be accidentally linked to
    another word in the sentence, not necessarily adjacent.
    
    helpfully, Laurie.

    Am I mistaken, or are you people actually taking Star Trek seriously?
    
    Laurie.

>    Am I mistaken, or are you people actually taking Star Trek seriously?
    
    You mean it's not a documentary ?
    No wonder I have so much trouble finding feed for my tribbles.
    
    							todd

    If you want an example of an avian species, look to Poul Anderson,
    not "Buck Rogers".  His species has wings *instead* of arms, they
    use their `feet' (meaning the hindermost set of apendages) as hands,
    and `stand' on their wings when they are at rest.  (The story in
    Analog was illustrated.  That helped a lot.)
    
    							Ann B.

    While "Star Trek" may be the most widely-known bit of SF, it is very
    far from the only SF, and non-humanoid aliens are *very* common in SF
    books, where there are no constraints imposed by central casting or the
    FX department.  Poul Anderson, Larry Niven, and James White, to list
    three authors off the top of my head, have all written long series of
    stories set in universes full of non-humanoids -- who may be cast in
    any relationship to humans -- friends, enemies, dominating, dominated, 
    equals, or (and this is hardest of all to write) just plain alien.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    Non-humanoid alien races? Check out Green Lantern Corps Quarterly or
    Green Lantern Corps (Back issues as it's cancelled) or Green Lantern or
    Green Lantern: Mosaic. ( A great book about alien species and
    Earthlings interacting while being forces to live on another planet. To
    bad it's about to be cancelled)
    
    DC Comics has had many alien species that were not humanoid over the
    last few decades. Granted most of their aliens WERE Humanoid, white,
    male, and English speaking (thanks to "monitoring our broadcasts for
    decades" ) but they do have some non human ones.
    
    PJ

    I agree that ST is hardly the only source of alien identities, but
    there is one advantage that ST has, along with Star Wars, Buck Rogers,
    Battle Star Galactica, Close Encounters of the IIIrd Kind, etc
    
    It was something visual in front of you.
    
    When I have read SF books in the past, most of them have been by
    authors who have spent so much time describing the technology of the
    future and how they foresee it, that I wasn't able to pick up much on
    the characters.
    
    Another problem with books is the transferance (sp?) of what someone
    has pictured in their mind being transmitted to paper/sentences, and
    then having another individual read it and have the picture again in
    the sand.
    
    For example, if I write a sentence such as, "The waves crashing on the
    shore, coming in one after another, was a reassuring sound to listen to
    while she was so far away from home."  That sentence puts the image of
    a beach into readers' minds.  It doesn't matter if it's an ocean or a
    lake, everyone who reads that gets an image of sand and waves and
    water...a beach...
    
    If I started to describe a crystaline entity, there are a lot of
    different images that may come into people's minds.  Some people may
    think of the crystaline entity of STNG, some people may think of a
    giant quartz, some people might think of a giant diamond, or something
    else...everyone may have a different image. 
    
    I run into that a lot with SF books...I read and have a hard time
    picturing what the author sees...
    
    Movies have the visual advantage because everyone sees a Klingon or a
    Jedi the same in that visual representation...
    
    When I read the Star Wars trilogy by Timothy Zion I took that advantage
    with me as I read.  Every time I read a line that Han Solo said, my
    head was filled with the visual image and the sound of Harrison Ford...
    
    

    Ooops...
    
    when I was talking about the trouble with SF authors having a picture
    in their mind I meant that it was difficult to get it transferred onto
    paper and then have a person read it and have the image reproduce in
    their mind the way the author meant it to be...
    
    the sand got in there by mistake...
    
    ;)
    

    Humans have always been anthropomorphic. Our pets and our gods we tend
    to see in human terms and assume that they think and act like humans
    would. It is therefore quite natural that we should continue this
    process when we envisage beings from other worlds. However this has
    absolutely nothing to do with what they really look like.

    Jamie.

    
    Jamie,
    
    So what do they really look like, then?
    
    >(8^)
    
    Cindy

    Well Cindy as I have never knowingly seen one, I can give you no
    information on that point.

    Jamie.

    
    Then Jamie, if you haven't seen them, how can you write:
    
    >this has absolutely nothing to do with what they really look like.
    
    Cindy

    It means that our ideas of what they should look like in no way
    influences what they really look like. 

    Jamie.

    
    Re.59
    
    OK...agreed.
    
    I was really hoping you had seen some though ...  >(8^)
    
    Cindy