Conference hydra::dejavu

    My mother definitely knew she was dying. She too told me that it would
    be the last time I saw her alive(after a visit) and she went over
    specific arrangements with me. She also told me some events that would
    occur after her death and told me how she wanted things handled.
    Everything came to pass as she said it.
    She also 'appeared in my bedroom' the night she died. What was
    amazing was that not only could I 'see' my mother but a friend who was
    staying with me saw her too!
    The world is a strange and wonderous place.
    
    Paula

    
    I've never experienced death in my family, all praises due to God. I
    did at one time SEE death, on a man's face. Living in this apartment
    bldg., I came home for lunch and the lady accross the hall had her door
    open. When I walked pass, this elderly man was sitting erect on the
    couch. As I walked passed, I noticed this strange hazzy white mist
    around his face; I took a second look to make sure I saw what I saw,
    and I was so. I told my wife about it, because she knows of the gift
    within me. Later that evening, when I came home--the lady across the
    hall, in that same apartment look at me and said "My friend passed away
    today". I was floored, because I knew it was death--I saw.
    
    Lorenzo
    

    A friend of mine died last Saturday. He knew he was about to die. But
    then people with a known terminal condition tend to. For those who want
    the details you will find them in two notes 17.122 and 17.123 in the
    MR4SRV::WORLD_FORUM.
    
    Jamie.

Relevant to the topic...

I once had a lovely sealpoint Siamese cat, Angelica.  She was very long-lived,
bracketing the first generation of cats and the second.  When she was 17 years 
old, she began to ail, and developed symptoms that were beyond the capabilities
of my family vet to treat.  I took her to Angell Memorial Hospital, where
_they_ couldn't pinpoint it either.  However, they were able to say that the 
effecvtsd fell into a certain class of illnesses; I suggested  that I'd be 
willing to let them treat her with experiomental techniques (since all 
conventional options were closed).  They assented; and on a weekly basis, I 
would take her to the hospital for treatment.

She responded at first; then, after some months of progress, she began to revert
to her "ill" state.  Finally, one day, I was on the first floor of my house; she'd
been on the second.  She appeared at the head of the stairs and started walking 
down, "complaining" as she did so.  I went up and scooped her up; and then
she stopped complaining, and after a few seconds, died in my hands.

Reflecting back on her behavior, I can come to no other conclusion than that she
_knew_ death was upon her, and she held it off until she could be with me in her
very last moments.

Angelica was a noble lady, and, per the treatment agreement, was autopsied.
The ailment was extraordinarily rare, and cancerous, but it was evident only
at the microscopic level.  And the experimental data gathered on her proved
valuable, and may contribute to finding a counter to such ailments, FWIW.

However, no matter how I slice it, she _knew_.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    Thanks for entering those notes, Jamie.  I read them yesterday.  Very
    touching.  My sympathies to you all.  
    
    Just one question though...who is the Russian Princess with the rose?  
    
    Cindy

    There was a study a year or two ago, which appeared in one of the major
    medical journals (New England Journal of Medicine, Lancet, or Journal
    of the AMA).  It showed in two populations (orthodox Jews and Chinese)
    a distinct tendency for the death-rate from illness in the elderly to
    drop percipitously the day before a family holiday and on the holiday
    itself, to be completely compensated for by an increase in the death
    rate the day after the holiday.  All the obvious artifacts, and a
    number of non-obvious ones were controlled for.  The effect could not
    be identified with any specific cause of death.  It's hard to avoid
    the conclusion that, consciously or not, they held off dying until
    the holiday was over.

					    Topher

    
        One more who knew.
    My aunt,who imigrated to the U.S. in the early 50's (N.Y.C.),and
    after living for more than 30 years in here,retired from work and
    went back home to spend the rest of her life there.After 4 years in
    Puerto Rico she decided to go back to New york to visit some friends
    and relatives.The day she was leaving,she asked her son to take a
    picture of me and her.When the picture was taking ,she put her arms on
    my shoulders,hold me tied and told me that this will be our last
    picture together.Two days later about 2:am I heard a noice of keys
    like soneone trying to open my front door in my house.I thow that
    it was me ex coming back and wait to heard the door open but nothing
    happen.The same morning about 7:am I heard my cousing screeming and
    crying.I asked my father what happened and he told me that my aunt
    died early that morning in New York.
      To me it was like if she tried to tell me good by.She died in 
    the same hospital that she retired from.
                         Ariel

    I think we have *some* control about when we pass over. My son was in a
    sudden deep coma caused by a brain tumor. The doctors told us it could
    be weeks or months before he died...but we absolutely knew it would be
    that day (New Years Day). So we gathered and stayed with him.
    Throughout the day my wife became very aware that Ben would not leave
    while she was in the room. He was very peaceful, but for some reason he
    did not want her there - even though he was in a coma. So she left the
    room, walked down the hall, and he passed.
    
    My image is that while he was waiting and while we all said our
    goodbyes to him he was in the care and grace of many "angels" and
    family spirits (greatparents who had passed earlier, etc.), and that
    this was a peaceful and loving time for him, and for those of us who
    listened to our hearts and let him go with our love.
    
    /Tim

    When my grandfather passed away (about 16 years ago), he was in his
    bedroom.  He had insisted that he die in his home and not in a
    hospital.  My father had been taking care of my grandfather, but
    stepped out of the bedroom for just a minute.  Moments later, my
    grandfather passed away.  That same night my cousin and I had gone 
    out to the drive-in.  We knew my grandfather was very ill and would
    soon be dying, but we didn't expect it to be that particular night.  
    We both became restless during the 2nd movie and decided to head for
    home.  When we drove up to the front of the house, we saw every light 
    in the house was lit (this is a big house with 4 separate apartments 
    in it).  I never did quite figure out why every light was lit (maybe 
    to signal the ambulance of the location of the house).  When we saw 
    the lights we knew what had happened.  
    
    When my father passed away 5 years ago, the Sunday before he died I 
    remember him talking to me and my mother.  But for some strange reason 
    I wanted to be sure I listened carefully to my father even though my 
    mother was talking to me at the same time.  I can't recall ever telling 
    myself to 'listen carefully to what he's saying', you know how teenagers 
    can be!?  Anyway, I also recall the look on his face (he was 67) and how 
    much older he looked that day.  He died from a massive heart attack the 
    following Tuesday.  That Tuesday morning my brother had just arrived from 
    working the night shift.  He saw my father and talked a bit like they 
    usually did in the morning.  When my brother headed for his apartment 
    (which is behind my parents'apartment), he had this strong feeling that 
    he should turn around and talk to my father some more.  But he shrugged 
    it off and that was the last time he and my father ever spoke.  My sister 
    who lives in Arizona recalls driving home that afternoon and had this 
    incredible sad feeling as if something terrible had happened.  When she 
    arrived home, her husband gave her the news about my father's passing.    
    
    This may not tell how the deceased had known or not known about their
    impending deaths, but it does say something how relatives seem to sense
    something is going to happen, yet not always know exactly what that
    something is.  
    
    Thanks for the base note!
    
    Donna

    It constantly amazes me how frightened of death our culture has made
    us!  Especially the noter who thanked God that death had not visited
    his/her family.  I wonder why that is?  Is it because we have been so
    filled with the ghastly spectre of decomposing corpses crawling from
    some Hollywood grave for some unholy purpose? We have traveled so far 
    from the acceptance of death, and understanding its place in our continuum
    We have also forgotten that we are the only creature who places dread
    on this transition.  Other animals may mourn (elephants and dolphins for 
    example) but humans *fear*.  Death is not something to entreat the
    deities to protect us from.  How much more horrible *not* to be released
    from an illness or pain and to suffer along endlessly.
    
    I believe those who are about to die, who are open and sensitive
    know it and accept the inevitable.  It's just us who either haven't 
    traveled that path (or who don't remember having traveled that path) yet 
    who fear it and hide in the corner when death is near.
    
    On his deathbed my grandfather asked my grandmother to turn down the
    radio because the music was too loud.  The radio was not on.
    
    These observations don't come easily nor am I being glib.  I've lost 11
    family members  or friends in the past 2 years.  I know the sorrow. I
    just don't know the fear.
    
    Stasia
     

    
        When I was a young man,my father told me that there's
    this culture (I don't remember which)that when a child is born,
    his/her parents and family cry.When somebody dies,they celebrate.
    I asked why and he said,
    A newborn comes to this world to suffer.
    The one who dies, stop suffering.
    So ever cense when somebody dies in my family I thank god for
    stop theirs suffering.
    Ariel
    

>    On his deathbed my grandfather asked my grandmother to turn down the
>    radio because the music was too loud.  The radio was not on.
 
A common point mentioned in most Near-Death Experiences (and consequently astral
projections) is the experience of a loud noise of some description - often 
rushing wind-like noise, or white-noise (hence the radio reference?) or a kind
of loud buzzing, hummin or ringing in the head... this is probably relevent to
the above mention... ? Also, in the same note - good points about not fearing
death! We shouldn't have to if we have faith in there being something more...

								- JIM CAD*

    I spent much of my childhood on a farm. There life and death are
    quickly revealed to you, as for that matter are grosser points of where
    we come from. Thus I have known from a child that death is inevitable.
    Some people have great difficulty in dealing with death and invent
    imaginary methods of securing immortality. In the end they will be
    proved wrong.

    Why fear what must come? Death is the only thing that is certain in
    this life. What you do in the interval between being born and dying are
    what count. What comes after death no one knows, many have firmly held
    beliefs but no one really knows. So finding out will, for me at least,
    be a final satisfaction when my time comes.

    Jamie.       

     <<< Note 1670.14 by HOO78C::ANDERSON "An awfully great adventure!" >>>

>    
>    Some people have great difficulty in dealing with death and invent
>    imaginary methods of securing immortality. In the end they will be
>    proved wrong.

    [ ... ]
    
>              What comes after death no one knows, many have firmly held
>    beliefs but no one really knows. 
    

By your own logic, they might be right. Whether by foresight or
coincidence, it doesn't matter. They might be right. They might not.

Dougie
          

    

     <<< Note 1670.14 by HOO78C::ANDERSON "An awfully great adventure!" >>>

     [ ... ]

>    Why fear what must come? 

Why indeed? I fear death, and no amount of rationalization is likely to
take that fear away. We tend to fear the unknown, and as long as what
happens after death remains unknown, it's likely to stay that way. I dearly
hope there is something after death, and knowing that if there isn't, then
I won't know about it anyway, does not comfort me, where rationally it
should.

    [ ... ]

    >So finding out will, for me at least, be a final satisfaction when my time
    >comes.

If there is nothing after death, then you will not 'know', because you will
be dead. There will be no moment in time when you 'realise' that there is
nothing, because if there is nothing, you will be unaware of it. You will
be dead. You will never find out if there is nothing, only if there is
something.

Dougie

    >By your own logic, they might be right. Whether by foresight or
    >coincidence, it doesn't matter. They might be right. They might not.

    By my own logic there can be only one thing after death. Therefore a
    maximum of one belief can be correct and all the others less than
    100% correct. However considering the wide diversities of beliefs, most
    will be wildly wrong.

    Jamie.

    >Why indeed? I fear death, and no amount of rationalization is likely
    >to take that fear away.

    Why? you will have to face it some day.

    >If there is nothing after death, then you will not 'know', because you
    >will be dead. There will be no moment in time when you 'realise' that
    >there is nothing, because if there is nothing, you will be unaware of
    >it. You will be dead. You will never find out if there is nothing, only
    >if there is something.

    Well never having died I can't give you a 100% positive answer on that
    one. However having got about as far as you can go in that direction
    and still make it back, and having chatted to other people who have
    done the same, it would appear that there is something out there.

    Jamie.

Dougie,

	Do a little (or a lot) of research - there is plenty of evidence out
there which proves to me that there is existence after death... but just as is
so with the topic of UFOs the great mass of evidence is disregarded. There's
a lot of top-notch medical research and loads of case histories and accounts
from patients who expereinced events after their physical death but from an
external viewpoint. For a good overall view you could read "What Dreams May
Come" by Richard Mattheson. It is a classic novel about what happens to a man
after he dies - but although it is a novel the details of the book are taken
from painstaking research into this area - hence there is a foreword to explain
the strange nature of the "novel" and an extensive bibliography in the back
for further research. A lot of this material is not airy-fairy mumbo-jumbo (&
I don't mean an elephant with a wad of gum! :-) ). You'll fear better for it,
I'm conviced - *completely* and I'm not a staunch religious maniac neither...

Jamie,

>    Well never having died I can't give you a 100% positive answer on that
>    one. However having got about as far as you can go in that direction

You probably have died (at some point) - IMHO - just not in this life! :-D

								- JIM CAD*

BTW - I hear re-incarnation is making a comeback.

Re .19 (Jim Cad):

>BTW - I herar re-incarnation is making a comeback.

Well, that's how it's defined, anyway. ;-)

Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    Jamie,
    
    If I die first, I'll make sure the new place puts sugar cubes on
    your pillow for you every night.  (;^) 
    
    Cindy

    That'll keep them guessing Cindy.

    Jamie.

    re: .26 (Ray)
    
        I have only followed this string very loosely; therefore, maybe
    taking your last line is taking something out of context and not
    fairly assessing it.  However, that notwithstanding, I'd like to
    make the comment that as long as anyone sees this planet as a psycho
    ward instead of seeing it as a friend and ally is "doomed" to 
    reincarnate until such time as they *do* see it that way.  This is
    where reality is "ALLOWED."  Once they are in dominion, and therefore
    "CAUSE" reality, THEN they are free to come and go as they desire.
        Sorry, Charlie, but once you've taken the bait of physicality,
    you don't get to go to the other pond until the bait has digested.
    
    Frederick
    

    
    Re.24
    
    Yes.  Jamie is a horse.
    
    Cindy

    Some people do know when and they may not even be ill. My maternal
    grandmother new. 1 week before she passed over, she told me that she
    wouldn't live to see my child born. My then-wife was 6 months pregnant
    at the time and we wanted a daughter, but all signs and tests pointed
    towards a son. It didn't matter greatly as long as the child was
    healthy. Grammy said that she was going to ask God to send us the
    daughter we wanted. Anyway, 2 days before her passing over, she was
    going to my uncle's for a birthday and I got to my mother's place just
    as she was leaving. I can still see her in the car looking at me and
    there was such a sad look on her face. It haunts me to this day. That
    was the last time we saw each other and didn't get to talk or hug. 2
    days later my mother called and told me grammy had passed away in her
    sleep. She just never woke up. Almost immediatelt all signs and tests
    for my child showed a daughter. 
    
    Tell me Grammy didn't know and didn't get an audience with the Highest.
    I'll never believe that she didn't. 
    
    Grammy I still miss you and love you.
    
    PJ 

        Jamie,
    Why they always pick on you.I guess that when you die and you are in
    your looooooong sleep,you are going to have a long dream with people
    calling you horse.
    ___________________________________________________________________________
    Have (you)ever had surgery?When the doctors put you asleep,well that's
    how I think is going to happen after death.You go to sleep and when you
    open yours eyes you may see a big big big old book in front of you
    were all your past history is.If you was a good boy/girl they keep you
    awake if not you go back to sleep for good.
    Ariel,
    P.S.No animals in this long trip allowed.

    Re .30

    >Have (you)ever had surgery?When the doctors put you asleep

    Yes I have had surgery. 

    During which they put me to sleep, cooled down my body, opened my chest
    cavity, hooked me up to a heart lung machine, removed my ruined heart,
    replaced it with a second hand one which the previous owner no longer
    had any use for, brought me back up to my normal temperature and when
    this heart started beating they disconnected the heart lung machine and
    closed me up.

    During this I had a most definite "experience", however it was nothing
    like the one you described. If you wish to read it you will find it in
    a long dead conference TRUCKS::EF89 it is in note 71.6
    
    Jamie.

    jamie, I looked it up and forwarded it to my account, You said we could
    do that in the original note. This is a funny, warm and very brave
    story. I can't believe the courage you have. Thank you so much for
    sharing it. 
    
    I'm still flabbergasted upon reading it.
    
    PJ

yup - it's a stoatar. Best note I've ever read in notes; and I usually just
like the shorties.

Dougie

    Jamie,
    
    Your note (the big one :-) is powerful and inspiring, as well as quite 
    well written and very likely publishable.  I hope you will consider 
    submitting it to some suitable rags, so that it can inspire more than 
    the few of us here priveleged enough to have seen it.
    
    Thanks,
    Mary

    First let me point out that I am not brave or courageous, I had no
    choice, it just happened.

    I do have a modest talent as a writer, and as such I know that to make
    a tale work you must breath a little life into it. However if you are
    not careful you can put a bit to much in, then your story begins to
    have a life of its own and often ends up different from how you
    intended it to be.

    What I was attempting to write was an unvarnished account of what it
    felt like to go through the whole experience. It was intended to be
    humorous, well I had never really taken life seriously and that looked
    like a very bad time to start, but it ended up the way it is.

    I let one doctor read it, she was very reluctant. Later she asked if
    the rest of the transplant team could read it as she thought a view
    from the patient's side would be educational. As far as I know it is
    compulsory reading for every new member of the team on joining. It has
    also been read by several potential transplant patients and their
    nearest and dearest before they had the operation, most said it helped.

    I don't really think it s of publishable standards. For a start it is
    of an awkward size, too long for a short story and too short to stand
    alone.

    Jamie.                                              

>    I don't really think it s of publishable standards. For a start it is
>    of an awkward size, too long for a short story and too short to stand
>    alone.
 
I think your experience is relevant to this current topic. Perhaps you
could consider re-posting it here. I think it's a shame that such good
writing is going to me missed by many people who would otherwise have read
it, because it is in 3 year old read-only conference. If anything, it is
more relevant to DEJAVU than EF.

Dougie                        

    

> I think your experience is relevant to this current topic. Perhaps you
> could consider re-posting it here. I think it's a shame that such good
> writing is going to me missed by many people who would otherwise have read
> it, because it is in 3 year old read-only conference. If anything, it is
> more relevant to DEJAVU than EF.

I agree. Please repost it, Jamie. Then further comments will not be
without their context.

Outstanding, by the way. More comments to follow.

    Jamie,
    
    I wish you would consider posting it here too.  It's a wonderful
    account of what you experienced and nicely written too.  I felt
    I knew you so much better after reading it.
    
    Joanne

    I read it too, transfixed.  However, as everyone who cared to was able
    to access the other conference, why post it here as long as that
    conference is on the air ?
    
    wonderful, Jamie, thanks.  
    
    karl

Jamie,

If it can't be posted here, please let me know where it is.  I have always
liked your contributions.



This might not be appropriate here, but I would like to share something
I gave some of my time to someone who was dying of Aids, and when she was 
deserted by most of her beloved ones.  I learnt a lot from her last few days.
She faced death so bravely and with a smile.

girish

                                                                        
    That's wonderful, Girish.  It must have been so hard for her to cope
    with those people deserting her...and such comfort to have you there.
    
    Cindy

I thought it was crap.



... only joking! :-) Excellent stuff, very moving. RE: the overhead-view 
experience & related sensations.

Jamie,

	You must surely know of other NDEs very similar to this? Did this 
experience give you hope or fear? Also, I'd greatly advise reading "What Dreams
May Come" by Richard Matheson (Oh God! CAD*'s going on about that bloody book
again!). Seriously though, it is the most moving book I have ever read. Whilst
reading this book and listening to Elizium by Fields of the Nephilim (inspired
by the book) I just found floods of tears running down my face. It seems so
*right*. Yet, if anyone had entered the room and asked me what was wrong, I
couldn't have told them what I was crying about... I really admire your courage!

	I really hope that the young black girl has found peace		:-|
(it's not always easy for those deceased to accept it and move on). I really 
worry deeply about relatives, (my father), and close friends just for this very
reason. They are such skeptics, so stubborn, that I worry they will not accept
their death when it is upon them. This is a real nightmare to behold... :-(

	Regards,
								- JIM CAD*

    I don't think its too long to be a short story at all.  I do think that
    with some judicious editing it would be far better than much of what I
    see published.  And I do think you had a choice -- you could have
    given up.  
    
    Mary

    re: .42 (Jim)
    
          Two weeks ago Lazaris defined cynics as stagnant skeptics.
    Skeptics, and skepticism, in and of itself (themselves,) are
    valuable (according to him.)  Cynicism, however, is not.  Cynicism
    is veiled hostility.
    
    
    re: Jamie
    
          I read it, too.  A powerful accounting, to be sure.  You must
    have a very strong will to live, in spite of yourself.  ;-)
    
    Frederick
    

    As it can be accessed on its original file I see no need to block up
    another notefile with it. A copy of it is in a directory called;
    
    HOO78C::PRIVATE6:[ANDERSON.RUBBISH]
    
    Some of the other stuff that I have written also resides there. A file
    called READ.ME will tell you briefly what each is about.
    
    Jamie.

Frederick,

	I'm not sure in what context your reference to cynics & skeptics is put.
I thought you were replying to another note I had entered but I just checked and
that's in a different string.

	It certainly gave me something to think about however, can you explain 
in what way you meant this with reference to my note?

	Regards,
								- JIM CAD*

    re: .46 (Gym)
    
         I was referring to the last part of .42.  It wasn't a real
    commment on your note, it was just a thought that your note 
    triggered.
    
    Frederick
    

RE: -1 (Fried rack)

Aaah... I see the bit you mean now! Good point!

								- JIM CAD*

Hi -

I haven't had a chance to read all of the replies, and don't have much time left on 
my lunch break, but I just -had- to reply to this.

I've had some strange things happen to me throughout my life, but things really
kicked into gear when I reached my 30's.  Since then I've known several times
when _others_ are very ill or about to die.

Just a couple of examples -

In early 1982 I was practcing meditation for at least an hour daily.  One night
in April I had the strong impression that someone very close to me had cancer.
I asked who (whom?) it might be.  The very strong impression came that it was
one of my dearest friends, a woman named Diana, who was soon to be married for
the second time.  I didn't know what to do with this information, so I kept it to
myself.   She was married 3-4 weeks later.  In the first week of July Diana 
walked into my office, closed the door (we were working in a hotel), and burst
into tears.  I knew exactly what the problem was and said to her, 'What kind is
it?'  (Mind you, she's the kind who didn't like to tell anyone if she was sick, 
so I didn't know she had even gone to the doctor's.)  She sat down and told me
she had cervical cancer, in the very early stages.  (She had minor surgery and
has been cancer free since then.)


During Christmas-time 1983 I went home to New York State to visit my parents.
Since I was between jobs, I stayed for a couple of weeks.  While there I began
to get very unsettling feelings, which wasn't so strange, since both my folks
were alcoholic.  However, because the feelings were SO unsettling, I asked in
meditation where they were coming from.  I was 'told' that someone very close to
my father was going to die.  I asked if it was one of our immediate family and 
was told no, but a family member very close to him.  I was puzzled, and the 
feeling persisted.

About 1 week later, my folks and I went to visit 2 of my aunts, sisters of my
Dad.  One of them, Irene, was one of the older of 10 children. The other, Connie, 
was the 9th of the lot, and my dad was the baby, so he and Connie were raised
essentially together.  I stayed up until 3:30 in the morning talking with Irene
about this awful feeling I couldn't shake, and telling her about hat I was told 
in meditation.  Two days later I came back to New England.  Two days after that,
I got a call from my folks that my aunt Connie had died very suddenly and
unexpectedly.  She was, indeed, the one in his family of origin to whom my dad
was closest.  In the thank you note Aunt Irene sent for the flowers I sent, she
commented on how she just couldn't believe that she and I had been talking about
someone close to my dad dying soon.

In February of 1990 I was meditating with my regular Wednesday night Course in
Miracles group, when suddenly I was clearly told that my Mother had cancer and
was going to die soon.  Naturally, I was very shaken by this, upset and crying.
I went home and told my (now-ex) husband that I would be taking our two sons to
my parents' home to tend my mother.  I spoke with my mother the next day.  She
had 'heartburn', and was going to call the doctor.  To make a very long story
short, my mother was admitted to the town's hospital on March 22 with pneumonia,
went into septic shock on the 24th, and we 'pulled the plug' on the machines on
the 26th and let her go.  The autopsy revealed that she had actually succumed to
lung cancer which had spread throughout her entire body, but which had not been
diagnosed.  On the day of her wake she had been scheduled to have the first of
a series of tests to find out what was causing the 'heartburn' (the cancer hit
the liver).

In thinking about these things, I do not know why I had advance knowledge of
what would happen to these people.  In my mother's case I do believe she 
believed she was dying of cancer, even though she had not yet had any tests.  In
the case of my friend Diana, she at least had some fear of cancer, although she
had not expressed any to me.  So in my mother's and friend's cases, I perhaps
picked up on their own fears/beliefs.  Why I would do so with my aunt is a little
less clear to me.

Anyway, I must run.  Sorry to make this so long and rambling.

Mary