Conference hydra::dejavu

    Sam,
    
    When Sue spoke to us about her dream, she stated she was actually
    dreaming.  This was not a conscious happening.  I just wanted to
    stress this as it did sound that much of this was in the physical.
    
    Also, wasn't there something about a message over the phone?
    
    Just adding things I sort of remember.
    
    Joanne

    Re: Phone calls from departed loved ones...
    
    In Jan. '84, a very dear friend named Camilla passed away in Houston. 
    I was very sad about her illness and her death.  We were both officers
    in a folk music society at the time she died.  I was 28, she was 60. 
    And I loved her just like my mother.  Camilla was also a movie buff, a
    music buff, and a bibliophile.  At that time in my life, she was one of
    the best read and best informed people I knew.
    
    In Aug. 84, I was taking a nap one warm Aug. afternoon.  In a dream I
    was having, I heard the phone ring and I picked it up.  In her typical
    New York accent and manner, Camilla said, "Bill, Camilla...".  I got
    very excited and said, "Ooh! Ooh! Camilla, is it really you?".  She
    said, "Well, yes, who'd you expect?".  I replied, "Well no one... Hey
    how are you doing?  Are you okay where you are?".  She answered, "Well
    yes... But I just wish I had brought more books with me...".
    
    I told her surviving husband about it three months later at a party at
    my home.  He said, "Yep.  That probably was Camilla, because it sounded
    just like something she would say and do...".   We both smiled about
    the incident, knowing that Camilla was probably her same old opininated
    self no matter where she was at.
    
    And I still miss her, but I am thankful for the times I had with her
    and the fact that I was always demonstrative in word and deed about how
    much I loved her.  There is some real peace in knowing that I told her
    I loved her while hold her hand and looking her right in the eyes, only
    eight days before she passed on.  We discussed death, and she said she
    was pretty curious about it, and just about ready to find out what it's
    like.  This woman was so intellectual, that it was hard to imagine her
    grieving about her own demise.  
    
    Anyway, that's my experience with phone calls from "the other side". 
    Tell your friend to answer the phone in her dream and talk with her
    grandfather.  It'll do both of them some good.   :-)
    
    regards,
    
    
    Bill Slater
    Colorado Springs

Joanne,

Yes, this was all in the dream state.

Bill,

Thanks very much for your note.

Sam

    re: .0
    
    I don't see any evidence here that Sue's deceased grandfather is
    trying to contact her.  If he is, he must be quite a character -
    persistent in his pursuit of Sue despite her obvious fears; very
    concerned about the father's emotions, but insensitive to those  
    of the granddaughter; expending energy to reach a goal (Sue's help)
    which he then drops as soon as he has a chance to obtain it.  
    
    It's notable, too, that Sue is told by others that her grandfather
    is trying to reach her.  She doesn't tell them.  But most people 
    who have this type of experience are unshakable in their convictions
    that the deceased person has gotten through to them.  They "know"
    that's the case.  They tell you.  It's not the other way around.
    
    I think that Sue's dreams are depicting some of her feelings about
    death.  Her feelings are real.  She's afraid of it.  She's afraid 
    that she, too, will be called, just as her grandfather has been
    called.  This is "called" in the sense of "summoned" - the word is
    used in situations over which we have little or no control, as in
    poker [I'll call you] or as in a bugle wake-up call.  Sue doesn't
    want to be in touch with her grandfather, so when he calls her, she
    ignores him.
    
    Her reaction causes the fear to escalate.  Sue is chased by "...
    some guy with a mask on through the woods."  It's as though death
    is a disease that is catching, and she fears being caught.  The
    mask is a dead giveaway.  The man's face is covered, just as her
    grandfather's face is covered.  This "guy" is another version of
    the grandfather, another depiction of death personified.  The woods
    (woulds) represent continuing motivations - the grandfather's wish
    to get Sue, and Sue's wish to escape him.
    
    Sue, thinking that her grandfather is a real person instead of a
    real fear, prepares to address him directly and to find out what
    he wants.  Before she does this, however, two things happen.  First,
    her poster moves, and then her drum beats.  Posters are usually on
    walls, and death is like a wall in the sense that it's something
    she's up against, like a dead end.  Sue fears that cessation, and 
    she continues to move away from it as she did recently, and probably
    as she did (unconsciously) in the more distant past.  The poster
    (past her) moves away from death.  The beating drum also signifies
    fear, as in the expression "her heart pounded."
    
    But Sue insists on addressing the grandfather, so she gets what seems
    to be a very odd answer, but which is a truthful one.  She is indeed
    awed by death.  The "grandfather" wants Sue to "...help her father ex-
    press his grief and emotions."  In constructing dreams, the brain often
    uses words interchangeably that sound alike.  In this instance the word
    is "father."  It means "farther" - which, to people from Massachusetts,
    sounds like "father" - and which refers to the farther part of Sue's
    awareness, those emotions that are outside of her consciousness.  Then
    the "grandfather" says, "Never mind, he [the father] has to do it him-
    self."  And that's what "he's" doing; he's presenting Sue with her own
    feelings, her feelings of fear.  
    
    Wed. night's dream is different.  The grandfather is gone.  Something
    is changing.  Sue feels her mattress moving and her body moving with 
    it.  For a moment it seems as though her fears are going to carry her
    away again.  She's going to be involuntarily moved, just the way her
    grandfather was moved on his "bed."  But now things *have* changed.
    Sue *feels* her body move on the bed, but she's no longer afraid be-
    cause she doesn't identify with the body.  Sue now *sees* that body 
    on the bed.  She now has a new perspective; her old self - now acknow-
    ledged- is moving on.  Sue fears are being laid to rest.  
    
    
    Virginia
     
    
    
    
    
    

    re: .4
    
    Correction - *Sue's* fears are being laid to rest.
    
    Virginia
    

Boy Virigina, Thanks for your reply!

I don't know whether I need to put this in, but I got further details from 
Sue last night about the message on the phone and other details.

The first night, her Grandfather called her on the phone and said that he 
wanted her to help her father out with his sadness and then he changed her 
mind and told her that her father has to do it himself. Then he was trying to 
say something and then said he will call her back. He never did that night.
	The second night was when the poster moved. Sue said something about 
that her Grandfather used to like watching wrestling with her on Sat nights. 
(It must be a wrestling poster). That same night, her drum made a beating 
noise and she did not touch her drum at all. She asked him that night what he 
wanted from her and he didn't answer.
	The third night was when her matress moved. She saw her body move 
with it. She was really worried. She asked again what he wanted and the 
response was when the time is right I will tell you.

    re: .6
    
    Sam, thanks for the additional details.  They don't change my
    opinion of the dreams, but I find them very interesting.
    
    Sorry that I don't have time to comment further tonight -
    
    Virginia

    Virginia,
    
    I want to thank you very much for your responses.
    
    Sam
    

    
    Sue's dreams are like mirrors that are relecting her emotional 
    state in the wake of her grandfather's death.  Following any sig-
    nificant loss, actual or impending, people experience definite psy-
    chological states, as delineated by Dr. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross. (See
    notes 1085.12 and 1085.22 for another relevant dream.)  These stages
    are denial; anger and rage; bargaining; depression; and acceptance.
    Several of them can be found in Sue's dreams.
    
    First, her grandfather telephones - he died, but he's not really 
    dead.  This is denial.  Denial has its own effects; for Sue, it was
    fear; for others, it's often hope or comfort. 
    
    Does Sue feel any anger?  Certainly not toward her Sat. night TV com-
    panion, her friendly grandfather.  But who's the "...guy " in the mask? 
    Who's the louse she can't see anymore because he up and left her?  Now
    he's hell-bent to get her back!  Notice how Sue gets even.  He departed
    from her; now she departs from him.  This is anger, pure and simple.  
    
    Do the dreams reflect depression?  Almost.  You could say it's about a
    heartbeat away from occurring.  First there's the poster, a moving re-
    minder of the enjoyable wrestling matches in which one contestant beats
    and the other is beaten.   Then there's the drum beat.  This is Sue's
    drum, and she's not touching it at all.  The drum represents Sue's
    heart.  Who is the person Sue's heart has responded to so well, tonight
    as every night?  Where is he now?  Why doesn't he answer?  To recall
    such a great relationship, to reexperience such a perfect match, and to
    then realize that it's gone, is absolutely devastating ...that must be
    him, beating the drum.  It can't be my heart, remembering how he caused
    it to beat.               
    
     

    I had a dream one early morning. I dreamed I was in water. My foot was
    caught. I couldn't get my foot out and I was drowning. I woke up
    grasping for air. I was physically upset. I felt as if I had been
    drowning.
    
    Later that morning my mother called to tell me some sad news. My cousin
    had gone bear hunting. He shot a bear across the river and was trying
    to cross the river in a boat when the boat overturned and he drowned.
    
    I feel as though his soul passed through mine at the moment of
    drowning. He told me how it happened. He caught his foot on something
    and he couldn't get it loose.
    
    He also visited another cousin that morning. He gave her a message to
    tell his mother that he would prepare a place for her. He let my cousin
    know that she had better tell his mother or he would be back.
    
    messages can and are sent from other places.
    

    Rather than start a new needs help with dreams, I'll enter my dream
    question here:
    
    My 15 year old, who I think has some psychic capabilities, had a dream
    the other night and it appears to be one of her stranger dreams.
    
    In the dream, she was alone and began to feel a little scared.  The
    phone began to ring, she picked it up to answer and the phone continued
    to ring... then it stopped, and a voice on the other end of the line
    said "Easter"   That was the dream!
    
    Someone told me that dreams at different times of the night, mean
    different things, ie, a dream remembered shortly after going to bed
    usually is working through the day's events.  A dream mid- night (say
    about 2-3 a.m.) is prophetic, while at dream towards awakening is
    healing -- her dream was around 3 am.  If this is prophetic, it sounded
    rather ominous!!
    
    Any ideas??
    
    Carla
    

    
    re: .12
    
    Carla,
    
    As far as I know, the correlations that you mention between dream
    types and dream times don't exist.  There was a dream psychologist,
    Gayle Delaney, on the Oprah Winfry show yesterday, who fielded a 
    lot of questions from the audience.  In only one instance did she
    ask at what time of night a dream occurred; and I think the dream
    in question was a nightmare.   
    
    Here are my thoughts about your daughter's dream, none of which may
    be applicable in your daughter's situation:  this dream could have
    been dreamed by a girl who has a boyfriend or would-be boyfriend who's
    coming on too strong for her.  He may be talking in terms of engage-
    ment or about how much your daughter turns him on.  Such talk could be 
    frightening to a teenager who isn't used to handling overzealous males.
    
    When your daughter picked up the phone, it kept on ringing.  It's al-
    most as though she's not the one the caller wants.  Your daughter may
    be realizing, subconsciously, that he's not really after *her*, even
    though he's handing her a line.   She may know that she's not right
    for him.  He doesn't know it yet, but she's a wrong number.  His whole
    conversation revolves around sex.
    
    Virginia

    Virginia,
    
    That is interesting... She is presently going with a boy who is a few
    years older than her.. she's almost 16.  This is the longest she has
    gone out with the same boy - 4 months.  Your take could be right.
    
    I found that I was taking the dream into the :: life renewal, beginning
    again, etc... it probably does boil down to pressure around a
    potentially "goal" oriented young man!!  
    
    Thanks,
    
    Carla
    
    
    

    
    How about some insite on this one:
    
    I was at work and I had to go to another facility and once their,
    I realized I forgot to forward my phones.  I left the building and was
    walking back to my office.  I ran into this woman about my age real 
    short hair and a little taller than me. She asked me "Hows Terry",
    (Terry is my biological Mother whom I found 2 years ago).  I said fine.
    We had to cross this little body of water without getting any on you.
    Found out it was toxic waste.  I got some on my sneaker and this woman
    said you have to take off your sneakers, socks and pants.  By this time
    I've got so much of this water on me and it's starting to get real
    thick and mucky.  I noticed that there are a few kids sitting on the
    embankment and they look horrible.  We then proceeded to cover me with
    this muck.  As it hardens it's turning a floresent green.  Now I notice
    alot more people around, mostly men and children and they are all sick
    and dying.  We headed back to the office building and I'm getting
    really sick to my stomach and I start to spit out this whitish/grey
    stuff (much like the consistency of oatmeal)  This woman then hands
    me this disk that says channel 4 on it.  Then bubbles start coming out
    of my mouth and noes, and people were coming out of the building and
    freaking out when they saw me.  Now I'm getting to where I can't
    breath.    Then woke up shakinig, and I'm having a hard time breathing,
    and I thought I was going to puke.  I was sick to my stomach for about
    a 1/2 hour.     
    
    Any ideas on this one.
    
    Ann
    

    Did you happen to watch any horror movies lately or read any spooky 
    Stephen King novels?  
    
    If not, it sounds like your subconscious is trying to tell you that you are
    doing something self-destructive to yourself or that you are exposing
    yourself to something that's eating away at you.. 
    
    If I had a dream like that, I'd take a long hard look at my life.. my
    job.. and my circumstances and see what makes you feel uncomfortable 
    when you focus on it... then when you find out what's bothering you, 
    change it.
    
    Of course.... as Freud said, "sometimes a dream if only a dream" :-)

    
    .17
    
    No I havn't seen or read any horrors in quite a while.  Tho' back on
    the 3rd I was told to find a new job, and not given any time fram.
    So maybe the not knowing how long I have is really eating me away
    inside.
    
    Ann

    Time for a change maybe, Ann... time to just walk away and not look
    back... a whole new life.. an adventure.. new opportunities..