Conference hydra::dejavu

    The main source of lore concerning Lilith is Talmudic legend.
    I believe she is supposed to have been an angel (maybe a djinn)
    given to Adam as wife.  She objected to being married off "beneath her"
    and ran off, or she became jealous when Eve was created.  I don't
    remember how the story goes, or perhaps there are two stories.
    It was on the occasion of this breakup that she joined the other fallen
    angels as a demon.  She is sometimes identified with the serpent that
    tempted Eve, and generally fits the stereotype of the femme fatale.
    
    My information comes chiefly from (not wholly reliable) memory of
    "The Book of Imaginary Beings" by Jorge Luis Borge.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

Re .1 (wal):

    >she was an incubus.

Possibly a succubus; according to some legends, the mother of succubi.  Incubi
are male (though a few suggest that they're hermaphroditic, being either
incubus or succubus as required).

Steve Kallis, Jr.

    re: .4
    
    ..."she is a demon [...] having sex with men in their dreams, and
    stealing their souls."
    
        I think this happened to me last night...but I stole my soul back.
    No wonder I wake up tired some mornings!  Maybe it's worth it, however,
    this is about the safest sex I know of...
    
    ;-)
    Frederick
    

When sex with a demon is considered "relatively" safe ;-)


Actually, I am still curious about this Lilith thing.  Having had a Catholic 
upbringing, I heard no mention of Lilith until adulthood, through some
science-fantasy readings.  I can't sort through the stuff enough to tell if
the tale of Lilith actually comes from Hebrew or Christian belief, or if it was
a myth withing those religious contexts.  Is there ANY source of authority about
this myth?

Beth

    Re .6
    
    The character Lilith does not occur in the scriptures considered
    canonical by Christians or Jews.  I have never heard of any Jewish or
    Christian group putting forth doctrines that required belief in Lilith.
    So I would say that Lilith is a mythical figure within the
    Judeo-Christian tradition, not officially believed in.
    
    The only "authority" I have heard of for Lilith is Borges's reference
    to legends recorded in the Talmud, which I mentioned in .2.  The Talmud
    is highly authoritative in Judaism, but it is not the same as canonical
    scripture.  Nor do I know the way in which the Talmud mentions Lilith.
    
    This doesn't mean that there isn't some obscure group out there that
    believes in her.  But I never heard of them.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

Re .7 (Earl):

    >This doesn't mean that there isn't some obscure group out there that
    >believes in her.  But I never heard of them.

Umm .. do you mean "believes in" as in "worship"?  There are folk who believe
in things not writ in Canonical books for their faiths.  F'rinstance, some folk
believe in banshees [not singling out an ethnecity, but taking a fairly well-
known example rather than talking of, say, peris].

Lilith of _legend_ is one thing; belief in Lilith as a real (and possibly still
active) entity is another; Lilith worship is a third.

1st person:  "Do you beluieve in infant baptism?"

2nd person:  "_Believe_ in it?  I've seen it being done!!!"

Steve Kallis, Jr.

    I knew I had written stuff here about Lilith.  I just added a keyword
    "Lilith".  See in particular notes 443.59, 1103.64, .66, .67 and .83.

					Topher

RE: .7 (Earl)

    Belief in Lilith among superstitious Jews -- as indicated by the use of
    protective talismen against her -- definitely exists.  You will still
    find a lot of Jewish birth certificates without a name, or with an
    incorrect name (this happened to one of my wife's relatives, who
    discovered that he had a legal name that he had never heard of when he
    entered school, though that was earlier this century) so as to confuse
    Lilith.

    I understand that there was a Jewish Lilith cult which ended in the
    first few centuries AD, but I don't know anything further about it.

				    Topher

    Re .8 & .10:
    
    By "believe in Lilith" I meant "assert the existence of Lilith as a
    formal doctrine."  I know there are Jews and Christians who believe in
    Lilith, dybbuks, banshees, brownies, etc., but I haven't heard of a
    Jewish or Christian division or denomination that requires you to believe 
    in Lilith as one of their entry requirements, or makes disbelief in
    Lilith grounds for an official exit.  Maybe there are.  Live and learn.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

RE: .11 (Earl)

    To the best of my knowledge, Lilith has had only minor influence in
    Christian beliefs.

    The idea of requiring belief in *anything* (except, perhaps the special
    cleverness of a particular "Rabi") as a prerequisite to membership in
    any Jewish group is totally alien to Jewish thought.  Judaism is about
    correct behavior, not about correct belief.  The latter is a Christian
    innovation in "Judeo-Christian" thought.

    It would not surprise me, though, to learn that some small sects (there
    are many that form around particular Rabbis) accept the existence
    of Lilith "officially" and act accordingly.

    The Talmud (interpretive writings on the Torah (Old Testament)
    considered authoritative) probably discusses Lilith in connection with
    some of the interpretations of Biblical passages which are taken to
    refer to her (see some of my cited notes).

					Topher

    I think the myth of Lilith comes from the Midrashim in Jewish
    Literature.
    
    Cross-reference and further references on the symbolism of Lilith from 
    Usenet sources :
    
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------    
>Some interesting references to Diana, any on Lilith?
 
Go to your local academic library.  Find "Feminism, Jewish" in the card
catalog.  Trace those references and their bibliographies.
 
For the information of those who are not familiar, Lilith is the apocryphal
first wife of Adam.  In Genesis there are two creation stories, so there 
must have been two "first women."  Lilith was created from clay, just like
Adam (meaning: red earth).  When God told her she must be subjugated to 
Adam, she told him to kiss off.  God cursed her and took a rib from Adam's
side and made it into Eve, who was properly submissive.  
 
Ever since Lilith has been both an image of empowered (out of control) 
women, and of a sort of bogey(wo)man/vampire.  It is said that Lilith was
jealous of the daughters of Eve because they could have babies, so she would
come and suck the breath from infants, and so on.  There is a Jewish Feminist
group called "Daughters of Lilith" out there, I believe...
 
Shava Nerad Averett
[email protected]
/* daughter of spider woman */
    
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From: [email protected] (Shava Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Lilith
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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Lilith has been a fascination of mine for some time.  The only work that I've 
found published recently on her is "The Book of Lilith" by Barbara Black
Koltuv, Ph.D.  It's a thin volume, but with an extensive bibliography of both
literary and scholarly sources.
 
I was particularly pleased in the treatment by Dr. Koltuv of the Lilith as
seductress/Lilith as strangling mother images.  An excellent little work on
an important mythic figure.  Perhaps a bit too much of a feminist agenda to
it, but I think that can be forgiven, considering the subject.
 
Abraham
    
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From: [email protected] (Abraham McCollough)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Lilith
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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>    I think the myth of Lilith comes from the Midrashim in Jewish
>    Literature.

    For the goyim (:-)):

    Midrash refers to a style of biblical interpretation and to a text
    exemplifying that style.  Midrashim is plural.  The Talmud contains, in
    part, midrashim which are considered particularly authoritative (and
    which attempt to record and incorporate the oral Torah -- the oral
    traditions which were considered equal in authority to the Torah).

    I will stick to my guns.  I think that Lilith, easily traceable to
    Babylonian myth, may have been used Talmudically, but almost certainly
    predated it.  She is a classic folk-monster, who was encorporated
    into Jewish beliefs.

				    Topher

    re: .14, Topher,
    
    	Historical/religious side note question :
    
>    Midrash refers to a style of biblical interpretation and to a text
>    exemplifying that style.  Midrashim is plural.  The Talmud contains, in
>    part, midrashim which are considered particularly authoritative (and
>    which attempt to record and incorporate the oral Torah -- the oral
>    traditions which were considered equal in authority to the Torah).
    
    What is the relationship between the Midrashim on one hand, and the Mishna 
    and the Gemara that composed the original Babylonian Talmud ?  Is it
    a superset of those, a subset of parts of those, a construction of a 
    different historical period, a generic term, or what ?  My knowledge of 
    this is really fuzzy.  I guess I've always thought of 'midrash' in a 
    generic kind of way to mean commentaries.
    
    								todd

    Lilith is even older than the Babylonian myths; she is part of
    Sumerian mythology.  There, she is called "the dark maid" and
    has wings like a cloak and bird feet.
    
    Isaiah 34:14 refers to the "night hag" or "screech owl" (depending
    on your translation) which is thought to mean Lilith.
    
    						Ann B.

RE: .15 (todd)

    I don't want to present myself as any great authority on this.  Its
    part of my heritage, so I have been interested in learning about it
    when the opportunity arose, but I have not studied either the
    history or the texts systematically.  That being said, here is my
    understanding of it:

    Publications of the Talmud contain two things -- the Mishna and the
    Gemara.  Properly speaking, though, "Talmud" only refers to the latter.

    The Mishna are compilations of oral tradition, which represent
    extensions to, commentary on and interpretation of the Torah (the
    "Old Testament").  It is sometimes refered to as the Oral Torah.

    The Gemara are commentaries on the Mishna.  In many ways, the Gemara
    are to the Mishna, as the Mishna are to Torah.  The commentaries
    attempt to resolve contradictions in the Mishna, and between the Mishna
    and the Torah, to find connections between different parts of the
    Mishna and Torah, to find all the available meaning in them, to
    investigate how the "legal" part of the Mishna (Halakha) applies to
    particular situations, and to extend and explore the narrative parts
    of the Mishna (Haggada).

    There were two acadamies which were founded, at about the same time,
    to compile and create the Gemara.  One was in Jerusalem, which was then
    a part of Palestine, and the other in Babylonia.  The two academies
    drew on many of the same sources for commentaries, and communicated
    with each other.  They each produced their own Talmud, known
    respectively as the Palestinian (or Jerusalem) and the Babylonian
    Talmud.  Neither is more original than the other.  They share
    essentially the same Mishna, and overlap heavily on Gemara.  The
    Babylonian academy continued compiling several centuries longer than
    the Jerusalem academy and is thus longer and more complete.

    The Gemara (but not the Mishna) are examples of Midrashim.  They are
    the most authoritative compilation of Midrashim, but not all Midrashim,
    not even all authoritative Midrashim, can be found in the Gemara.

					Topher

re: .-all

Gee, thanks people, but I was only asking if I spelled the name correctly :-)
:-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)

And some good pointers also.

-Joe

Re .19 (demon fighter wal):

There's some disagreement whether succubi necessarily fit in the demon
category.  A succubus is an entity that provides temptation, particularly
for men who have chosen a chaste life [incubi provide a like temptation
for women], but that in itself doesn't necessarily indicate their "genetic"
makeup.  

They may be more akin to nature spirits or elementals.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

    re: wal's note to Frederick and ...
    
>for men who have chosen a chaste life [incubi provide a like temptation
    
    	Frederick, chaste ?   I guess I formed a mistaken impression !

Re .21:


>>for men who have chosen a chaste life [incubi provide a like temptation
>    
>    	Frederick, chaste ?   I guess I formed a mistaken impression !


You misunderstand: I was speaking about the role of tem,pter, not access to 
resources. 

Steve Kallis, Jr.

>>>for men who have chosen a chaste life [incubi provide a like temptation
>>    
>>    	Frederick, chaste ?   I guess I formed a mistaken impression !
>
>You misunderstand: I was speaking about the role of tem,pter, not access to 
>resources. 
    
    Oh.  I knew I hadda be misunderstanding *something*.  :-D

    re: a couple
    
          ...nice to see the curious adolescent in action---:-)  :-)
    
          Since my eyelids were closed at the time, I don't know if
    my eyes were red or not...but, to be honest, I never seem to quite
    get to the "sex act" in my dreams...lots of activities "in the
    neighborhood" but never the whole enchilada.  Maybe this is some
    sort of torture devised by the demon herself?  "Yet's tease Fred,
    but never, ever let him score touchdowns..." (speaking of football...
    ;-) )
          Yes, this is the life of the chased.  To chase or not to chase,
    that's the dumb question...also funny, that when I'm chased in dreams,
    it's never by a (female) temptress...it's always by something far less
    pleasant...:-{  But I *do* appreciate the "tease," whenever those
    pop up.  
          Maybe you're mistaking me in real life for me in my dreams, Todd.
    ;-)
    
    Frederick
    

    re: .25 (Wal)
    
         Wal, shucks!  You mean all I am is obsessed!  Phew!  Boy,
    does that ever set me free!   ;-)
    
         Based on the description, however, it almost sounds like
    I've already had some close encounters of the 3rd or 4th kind.
    (Actually, they looked and felt like real women, but succubi
    aren't really as bad as they're cracked up to be.)
    
    Frederick
    

re: 1605.25 
HAMER::MONTALVO 

>    an actual succubi will feel just like a real woman. you will not be
>    able to tell the difference! you will climax just like you usually do. 


	"Succubi" is plural.  The singular form is "succubus"

	-Art

Re .27 (Art):

	>"Succubi" is plural.  The singular form is "succubus"

Well, for many, succubi are pretty singular. ;-D

Steve Kallis, Jr.

  
  >> "Succubi" is plural.  The singular form is "succubus"
  >                                                              
  > Well, for many, succubi are pretty singular. ;-D              
  
  So let's get the story straight ... not only does Fred succumb to a
  singularly pretty succubus but the suspicion is that he is susceptible
  to succulent sets of succubi ?
  
  Frank

    re: .29 (Frank)
    
         Thanks for thinking of me when you think of succulent succubi!
    Yes, yes I am susceptible to singular sets of succinctly suspicious
    succulence.  How'd you figure this out, anyway?
    
    Frederick
    ;-)
    

    This rathole succs...
    		    ^
    
    					:-)
    
    								- JIM CAD*