Conference hydra::dejavu

    Tom,
    
    though I don't have any particular advice (I've never been in touch
    with black magic thank heavens) I'm sending a healing rune along
    with love and healing thoughts for Dorothy
    
    This is the spell that we intone
    Flesh to flesh and bone to bone
    Sinew to Sinew and vein to vein
    And each one shall be whole again
    
    Karin

    
    
    	       Go to an occult shop they should be able to help you 
               and recommand someone who would be willing to remove 	
               the curse.

    Re .0 (Tom):
    
    There are several things that can be done; however, it's important that
    Dorothy be sensitized to the fact that when things are depressing, it's
    easier for other depressing things to occur.
    
    I think many here would wish to send positive thoughts to diminish and
    abolish negativities.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    Very often,"magic spells" are self fulfilling prophecies, in that they
    only work if the person being "hexed" believes that they are,in fact,
    under some kind of a spell- almost like a post hypnotic suggestion.
    If I believe I am "cursed, I tend to magnify any misfortunes.
    Positive thought could be an antidote.
    
    					Jim
    

    	re: .0,
    		Yes, most of the advice I've heard here so far, I'd
    	agree with, with the possible exception of removing a postulated
    	curse.   Not that it isn't a valid suggestion, just that personally, 
    	I think that might involve the person more in the kind of 
    	victim-thinking that "Black magic" relies upon to work, if that is 
    	what is going on.  Going through an unfamiliar ritual says to yourself 
    	"yes, I've been cursed by something I have no familiarity with,
    	so I'd better defend myself in some way I don't have much faith in."  
    	Unless you believe in the power of a ritual, it can work against
    	you.
    
    	"Black Magic" feeds on human weakness, and can't work (unless 
    	they poison her, or something radical like that) if she doesn't
    	give it any psycholgical or psychic perch to cling to.
    
    	Have Dorothy find a source of personal strength to help her find 
    	her way back to clear thinking and work through any fear.  I think
    	it would be a mistake to immerse yourselves deeper in any magical
    	beliefs or practices, of either a 'positive' or 'negative' nature,
    	at least at this vulnerable point.   Surround her with sane, 
    	well-wishing friends for support, and help her see the variety of 
    	good things about her life.
    
    	And send her my support as well, please.
    
    								todd	

    I might be off base but has Dorothy tried prayer -
    I will remember her tonight in my prayers.
    
    Betty
    

    re: .6, (Betty)
    	Why do you think the suggestion of prayer might be off base ?
    								todd

    
    Re. 0 
    
    Since neither you or Dorothy seem to know the type of "Black Magic"
    organization this person belongs to, it's hard to tell the type of
    sub-conscious suggestion he may have out to Dorothy. Like several
    others, I also believe (in fact I'm sure) that the person has to
    believe in the "curse" in order for it to have any effect on the
    person.
    
    My theory is that Dorothy had a run of unfortunate circumstances
    happen, and this person somehow found out about it and called her to 
    somehow make her think/believe he was responsible. It apparently
    worked. The hard part is to get her to DISbelieve it.  Until she does, 
    she will probably continue to suffer from his influence. Not knowing
    the types of things that have happened to her, it's hard to say whether
    these are things that normally happen to people, or really
    out-of-the-way occurrences we might ascribe to "occult" intervention.
    
    It is good to remember what Steve Kallis stated earlier, the worse you
    feel the worse you get. Perhaps once Dorothy has gone through her
    surgery, her problems will be lessened. If not, she should definitely
    seek the help of clergy, spiritual advisors and/or friends on whose
    support and love she has confidence in to guide her and remove the 
    negative "vibes" from her conscious/sub-conscious.
    
    Until then, I will add my prayers and good thoughts for her speedy
    recovery.
    
    Please let us know how she progresses.
    
    
    Marilyn

    Tod (re my remark)
    I am a believer that prayer can heal the mind and 
    body and don't want to push my ideas on those
    who don't share my feelings.  - just being careful
    as I'm a fairly new noter....
    Betty
    

 I agree that belief is the primary key to the destructiveness of "curses",
 yet belief is also the primary key to the effectiveness of "cures".
 I see the mechanics of belief operating similarly in both cases.

 It is interesting to me that literally hundreds of notes have been written
 into this conference to send "positive thoughts", "prayers", etc. to people,
 presumably upon the assumption that these could aid the person asking for
 help (and I believe that they can!).  The beliefs of the receiving person
 can magnify or thwart the effectiveness of these "positive" thoughts, yet
 I believe that there can be some positive effect in any case ... EVEN IF the
 receiving person is unaware of the "positive" efforts of others ... do you?

 If so, then it seems quite naive to think that "curses" are somehow different
 from "cures" in that the receiving person must participate with "negative"
 beliefs in order for anything negative to happen at all.  It seems that the
 same conditions apply for "curses" as for "cures", where the destructiveness
 can be magnified or thwarted by the beliefs of the receieving person, yet
 that there could be some negative effects in any case ... EVEN IF the
 receiving person is unaware of the "negative" efforts of others.

 While I believe that we can confidently nullify or transform negative energies
 which have been directed toward us to avoid harm to ourselves, it is my belief
 that unless some sort of "positive" counter-action is taken, then "negative"
 energies directed toward us can result in ill effects.

 Instead of promoting the belief that Dorothy initiated all of the negative
 energy and heaped it upon herself (not much of a confidence builder), I would
 recommend encouraging the STRONG belief that NO MATTER WHAT NEGATIVE ENERGY
 has been directed towards her, she is FULLY CAPABLE of diverting, nullifying,
 transforming, grounding, or shielding herself from the negative energy so
 that she can not only avoid harm to herself, but can actually strengthen
 her own "positive" energies in the process!

 T.O.D. (the other Todd)

    re: .9, Betty,
    	If you feel you need disclaimers, that's ok, I'm not trying
    	to criticize.  I just want you to know that you don't need them.
    	You are free to relate what you believe here, whether someone
    	else agrees or not.   That may not seem to be true in some other
    	forums.
    
    	If someone doesn't like it and attacks your ideas, you'll likely 
    	also get support, and probably a whole range of alternatives as well.  
    	That's one of the characteristics I really admire about the 
    	Noting in this particular forum.   
    
    	I guess I've been looking for an opportunity to say that for a
    	while, and finally got a chance.  :-)
    
    								todd

    re: .10, (T. O. D.)  (Shouldn't that be T. O. T. for The Other Todd ?)
    
    	Great points (and nice name, too).  It doesn't matter what's
    	eating Dorothy, the consensus is clearly that she can participate
    	in helping herself, along with the support of her friends.
    
    	That much seems sort of BSI to me (belief-system-independent).
    
    			;-)
    
    	Please keep us informed as to her progress (and what justice 
    	inevitably befalls the horny skunk that alleged tried to zap her).
    
    								todd

Re: .10

Thank you for stating that.  It helps me in my situation, which is some ways
is similar to that described for Dorothy.  And, yes, when I feel down, the
pressure of the "curse" is stronger as well (the affects aren't quite so
devestating, however, more of nuisance/blocking quality).

Re: .0

As so many have stated before, help keep Dorothy with a positive attitude.
And, think of her being surrounded by a mirror that reflects negative things
sent her way back to the sender.  Perhaps the offender will then suffer for
his own actions and stop harrassing her.

Beth

        Thanks, everybody.  I'll probably be talking to her about
        some of this stuff -- trying to keep her attitude up and
        positive, without adding more weight to any concern or
        belief in this issue of black magic.  She's not convinced
        (nor am I) that a curse is the cause of all the misfortune
        she's had, but she tossed it to me kind of casually, like
        "gee-whiz-Tom-maybe-THIS-is-why-everything's-been-so-bad!"

        I'll let you know how the surgery goes and how she goes.

        Thanks for the input (here, and off-line).  Wish the best
        for her, would ya'?


        - Tom

    re: .0
    
    One thing at least seems certain to me - Dorothy will recover
    from the surgery and her life will take a better turn.  But
    the jerk who hit on her, tried to influence her philosopically,
    threatened her, and seems to gloat at her misfortunes will have
    to live with his stunted personality for a very long time.
    
    He will continue to punish himself far more seriously than
    he could ever hope to punish anyone else with his hostile
    and peurile little "curses."  
    
    Were I in Dorothy's shoes I'd tell him to get a life...
    
    Joel
    

    
    God's language is laughter (I believe), and Dave Barry is a patron
    saint. Perhaps get one or two of his books for her to read in 
    recovery, or raid the Dave_Barry conference for some of his articles.
    His "Dave Barry's Greatest Hits" book is hilarious!
    
    It really does work.  (;^)
    
    Cindy

    
    I agree with the thoughts Todd D. shared in .10.  I will add my
    supportive, healing prayers for Dorothy.
    
    Carole

Re:.0

If Dorothy believes in creating your own reality....ask her to ask herself
what she got out of all these difficulties that seemingly decended on her,
when she has the answer to that (which probably is that she really is good
enough and capable enough and caring enough, etc (a major self confidence
and self love issue...(instead of identifying herself to be a "victim"
of someone and therefore turning her power over to them); to turn all this 
around into a beautiful life and just needed enough pain stimulii from her 
hue-man self to seek her divine integration) (hue-mans have this idea that 
they have to experience pain and misfortune in order to appreciate the 
"good things" in life and grow) then have her let her mental and emotional 
bodies know that she has learned these lessons and no longer needs these 
stimuli and is getting on with creating a new and wonderful life for herself.  

This way she can grasp the reins of "her Life" and the responsibility for 
the creation of it herself and with the impetus of all the wonderful energy 
and wishes from the lovely people in this forum can catapult her way into a 
new energy matrix and way of being.

If you need more specific information on this, let me know.

In Love and LIGHT
I AM
Talligai (aka Altraea)

There could be one or more reasons for your Dorothy's situation.
I won't rule out a spell or personal problems, but would begin
by working with something gentle to form a protection around her
and start the healing process.

I'd like to recommend that she gets some Black Tourmaline, a 
protective stone that deflects negative energies.  I would like
to suggest keeping some in her home, some at work, and some on
her.  She might even considering wearing a necklace or earrings
and can get some rough pieces (very inexpensively) and wrap 
them to wear.

Katrina Raphaell speaks of Black Tourmaline as a stone that
helps form a shield that immunizes one against the effects of
harmful physical or psychic influences and goes on to say that
it can also neutralize one's own negative energies.  She says
the stone will teach it's students how to remain radiant in
the darkest of circumstances.

PLEASE NOTE:  Do not allow her to get any Black Obsidian.  It
could add to the confusion and frustration she now faces.

I'd also like to recommend that Dorothy wear a piece of 
Rose Quartz.  Rose Quartz and Black Tourmaline would make a
lovely combination.  While the Tourmaline would protect, the
Rose Quartz could begin by starting the healing process and 
begin establishing inner peace.  Rose Quartz is a healer for 
inner wounds.  It's also a stone that teaches self love and 
with all she's been going through, she could use help in 
reinforcing her own strengths.

She might also want to pick up a nice Rose Quartz heart 
(besides the piece she should wear - they're about $7-10) and 
keep it with her.  Whenever she feels hurt or scared or in 
need of strenght she could hold the heart and feel the smooth-
ness of the stone and let the gentle vibrations enter.  I 
carry a small Rose Quartz sphere that I take out when I feel
anxious or am having a terrible time.  It relaxes me and I
start feeling better just seeing it's beauty and feeling it
in my hand.   

The stones are physical.  They are something that she can
see and touch.  Besides their properties, they can become a
tool to help her take charge of the situation.  They're
there to help her and will give her strength if she allows
them too.  They are a beginning.  I feel this might be a 
better way to start as she's probably at an all time low
and is not in any position to jump right into the situation 
and deal with it.  Let her build her foundation then take a
step.

Talligai works with stones.  Perhaps she can also make some
recommendations.

Visualizing Dorothy protected and moving forward,
Joanne

Re:.19

Nice recommendation, Joanne.

Black tourmaline and rose quartz are a good combination. She might
also consider wearing a necklace of flourite periodically to clear
the aura and keep it clear. 

I also "highly recommend" that if she is going to use crystals to 
assist her, that she clean them on a daily basis by soaking them
over night in clear water.  If the rose quartz discolors at all,
bury it in the earth (in your yard by a big tree preferably, and
ask the deva of the tree to clear your stone and recycle the 
energy for you...it will be most happy to comply) for a week and 
check on it at the end of that time to see if it has cleared. If so, 
it can be used right away....if not, bury it for a few more days and
keep checking it every couple of days until clear. Rose quartz
is highly absorbant and needs careful attention.

Getting some small pieces of rose quartz and making a six pointed
star grid under her bed would be very helpful. Clean them daily, putting
them in to soak when she arises and replacing the grid at suppertime.
Amethyst is also another nice stone for night time grids. The stones
don't have to be large to give maximum benefit.

In Love and Light
I AM
Talligai 

    
    Oo-ee-oo-ah-ah, ting-tang, walla-walla bing bang
    oo-ee-oo-ah-ah, ting-tang walla-walla bing-bang

    re:  .21
    
    Jim,
    
    Was your reply a "Positive Thought" or some humor?  Sure
    hope so.
    
    Joanne

    Re .22 (Joanne):
    
    The entry was some of the lyrics of a song, _The Witch Doctor_, which
    was popular a generation ago (and can be heard occasionally on the
    "Music of Your Life"/Golden_Oldies radio stations).
    
    I presume it was humor, since the words have no specific meaning.
    
    Steve Kallis,  Jr. 

    re: .23 (Steve)
    
          Wasn't the title "Flying Purple People Eater?"
    
    I saw the witch doctor, he told me what to do...
       I saw the witch doctor, he told me what to do...
    I told the witch doctor, I was in love with you
    ...
    and he said "ooee, oolahlah..."etc.
    
    Frederick
    

    Good call, Steve.  I couldn't remember the song.
    
    re: .24, (Frederick),
    
    	Right lyrics to Witch_Doctor, but I believe wrong title.
    
    	The chorus of Purple People Eater goes something like ...
    
    		"It was a one-eyed, one-horned, flying purple
    		people eater,
    
    		<refrain>
    			one eyed, one horned, flying purple people
    			eater,
    		<endrefrain>
    			
    		one eyed, one horned, flying purple people
    		eater,
    
    		Sure looks strange to me ! ... "  etc.
    
    I think toward the end, an 'alien' says :
    
    	Bing banga wonga bamba bong bam boom, though, if that's close
    	enough.
    
    	Do you concur ?
    								todd

    
    I knew where the lyrics came from but interpreted the entry as being
    sarcastic.  Instead of jumping on it, I asked what was meant by 
    them.  Actually, I hummed the lyrics all evening after reading 
    them.
    
    Joanne

	Or, from Dr Jambi:

	"Mecca-lecca-hi, mecca-hiney-ho"