Conference hydra::dejavu

    Hi Cindy, 
    
    a question, what is Kripalu Yoga?
    
    Peace,
    Bill

    Hi,
    
    	I've been to Kripalu Center for Yoga and Health.  I went alone (I'm
    married) to try to "find myself" (for want of a better explanation).  I
    find myself still trying to explain to my husband and friends that
    no-one really "tells" you anything there.  You find the answers you
    need yourself.  The guided meditations are just that, guides.
    
    	I made enourmous changes in myself since I went there about two
    years ago.  Those changes have been everlasting.  I feared before I
    left that weekend that I would lose what I had found there, but I
    didn't (I was assured I wouldn't) - actually, what I found there
    existed in myself, so it is easy not to lose it.
    
    	I know this sounds pretty criptic.  Cindy, having been there, does
    this makes sense to you?
    
    	Re: Kripalu Yoga.  Cindy can correct me.   Kripalu Yoga is "moving
    yoga".  It was developed by Amrit Desai while he practiced yoga
    himself.  Kripalu was developed in response to a wish for a meaningful
    form of yoga for his American students/friends.  There's a whole lot
    more behind his story, but this is off the top of my head.
    
    					Kathleen

                                                                          
    Hi Bill - will go into more details later on, however Kathleen is right
    - it is a form of yoga which is practiced there called "Meditation-In-
    Motion", founded/discovered by Yogi Amrit Desai back in 1970.  He began
    his studies in India under his teacher at age 16, becoming adept at the
    more traditional forms of yoga (the classic postures).  One day he
    suddenly found himself moving into postures without intervention of the
    mind, and entered a deeper meditative state than ever before.  Suddenly
    the ancient scriptures of yoga made sense to him - the postures had
    originated out of such automatic experiences by the yogis, not the
    other way around.    The postures were recorded and practiced by those
    hoping to obtain higher states of consciousness.  While it is a
    possible path, it is like working from the outside in vs. the inside
    out.  The physical manifestation is a result of the inner realization.
    
    BTW, Yoga means Union of mind/body/spirit
    
    Kathleen - couldn't have said it better.....as if it might be possible
    to put the experience into words anyway!  (;^)
    
    Cindy

                                      
    Through a series of completely coincidental events (;^), I spent
    Christmas Eve and Day at Kripalu Center.
    
    I was supposed to be in Chicago, and was enroute to upstate NY to pick
    up my sister the Satur4day before and continue on, but my timing belt 
    broke between exits 2 and 3 on the Mass. Pike on Saturday evening when 
    no garages were open for business.  My sister decided to go on ahead 
    since it was going to be a few more days before my car was fixed, so I 
    stayed in Lee, Mass. at the Pilgrim Inn (*highly* recommended for the
    price - owned by a wonderful family from India) then went to Kripalu 
    Center in Lenox for Christmas.  It was the most amazing Christmas I've 
    ever had.  Gurudev (Yogi Desai) led the Christmas morning service 
    (satsanga), and it was very moving.   Fortunately the service was 
    videotaped and I purchased a copy because I'm anything but fully 
    conscious at 6:45am, which was when the service began.  (;^)   
    
    I absconded with lots of their session catalogs for February-May 1991,
    so if anyone would like to receive one, send your preferred mail
    address to me directly.
    
    Best wishes for a joyous New Year,
    
    Cindy

    
    Hi,
    
    My wife is taking a 3 day "Inner Quest Intensive" at Kripalu this
    summer. Does anyone have any information they can share regarding
    what she can expect?
    
    thanks,
    
    Peter Lellos
    

    I have heard this is a very theurapeutic (sp?) course. Many people
    I know have done this course several times and still feel the need
    to do it a few more times. It is also considered one of the best 
    courses to do in Kripalu (read - you get your money's worth).
    I am sure he will have a wonderful time. When he comes back he
    probably would be a changed man.
    
    Hope this is encouraging.
    
    Mohan
    

    Re: .5
    
    Hi Peter,
    
    Although I haven't taken the Inner Quest Intensive, I was at Kripalu a
    while back when it was being presented. My impressions of the program
    were quite positive, based on some contact with the participants.
    (Not much, to be sure, because those folks were kept busy.) 
    
    The only specifics that I remember involved role playing and 
    dance/music. It appeared to really be an inner quest, really be
    intense, and really be fun.
    
    Hope that your wife enjoys it.
    
    -Art Little-
     

         
    Re.5, and Inner Quest
    
    I just returned from Kripalu, after taking the Inner Quest Intensive.
    There were 150 of us taking it, and throughout the 3.5 days, we paired
    up with about 15 other people each.  The pairing was random, and we
    usually caught the eyes of someone else in the group sitting nearby.  
    
    During the second or third exercise, my partner turned out to be
    Peter's wife mentioned in .5.  (;^)  [Hi Peter - please give her my
    best!]  We first discovered the Digital connection after talking about
    our lives for a few minutes, then when she mentioned that her husband 
    had put a note into the DEJAVU conference asking about the Inner Quest 
    Intensive, I looked at her in shock, told her my own connection to 
    DEJAVU, and we had a really good laugh! 
    
    In an interesting twist, Peter's note prompted me to consider taking
    the Inner Quest.  Then I'd contacted him offline to offer additional
    information about Kripalu, but time didn't allow me to get back with
    anything substantial (sorry about that).
    
    Peter, if you'd like to elaborate on the story, please do so!  I'm 
    (still) bit short on time at the moment. 
    
    Cindy
    
    PS.  The Inner Quest was FANTASTIC!  The first 48 hours were a bit
         taxing, however to get to where I am now in terms of understanding
         myself and life in general, I'd go through it all again without a 
         moment's hesitation.

Hi, all -

	I just got into this conference yesterday, so I'm a little late
	but for what it's worth:

	I first went to Kripalu in Jan. of 1987 - to the Welcome Weekend.
	I had first heard about Kripalu at the Whole Life Expo in Boston
	a year or two before that and had wanted to go, but was "chicken"
	to go alone.  I ended up going with my yoga teacher.  I wasn't 
	working at the time - having left DEC in Sept. of 1985 to
	"find myself" - or really to figure out what I wanted to do for
	a living, find the meaning of life, all those nagging "little"
	questions that we don't really have time for when we're in the
	"rat race"...

	I enjoyed the weekend alot - everyone really does smile as much
	as the pictures in the catalogue show!  So I signed up for the 
	Inner Quest Intensive (March '87) thinking that would be a great way to
	figure out what to do with my life.  Sounds easy, doesn't it?
	Well, as we all know nothing worthwhile is easy - or maybe it is,
	but we don't believe it's worthwhile if it's easy....  Anyway,
	it was a good weekend - but I was very resistent for the first 
	few days.  In fact, I wasn't sure what I had gotten myself into
	at first!  It was _intense_!

	I finally got the message that I had to dredge up the "stuff"
	that was "blocking" me from "knowing" what I wanted to do -
	i.e. (as any good therapist and many authors, spiritual leaders,
	etc, etc, etc, will tell you) the answers are all within you,
	it's up to you to find them, discover them, recognize them,
	however you want to term it.

	I went back in July for High Energy Living (1 week?) - where I
	discovered WHAT the current (at the time) "block" was - and then
	in August for the Yoga Sadhana Training (1 wk).  I had great 
	experiences at all of them and wanted very much to do the 
	Yoga Teacher Training but it wasn't being given again till the
	following Feb. (1988) - What would I do in the meantime (all of 
	6 months!)???!!!

	Well, I had gotten rave reviews from all the little guided 
	massages (no, not "mEssages,"- mAssages - i.e. back rubs, etc.) 
	you do as part of almost every program so I did the month-long 
	Bodywork Training in October 1987.  I find massage for me is 
	almost completely intuitive and very much a "meditation in
	motion" (as is yoga as they teach it and as Cindy explained
	earlier).  I thought about getting more training and getting
	licensed, but that would have meant starting from scratch and
	I find doing it for money takes the fun out of it, so I just
	work with friends and do exchanges.

	It was a very "Kripalu" year.  I've been back a few times since, but
	had not thought much about it until all of a sudden over the past
	2-3 weeks it has popped up half a dozen times!  Maybe it's time
	to go back...?  They have expanded the accomodations and added
	a number of programs.  I think I enjoyed the Yoga Sadhana Training
	("sadhana" = "spiritual path") the most, but I was "processing"
	so much I hardly slept the whole week!

	I found Gurudev (Yogi Amrit Desai - the founder, as has been
	mentioned) to be very human, i.e. very approachable, and he 
	has a great sense of humor.  The staff is terrific - mostly 
	well-trained and supportive.

	Bye the way, "Gurudev" stands for "beloved teacher".  Also
	Kripalu (pronounced "kri pah' lu" with short i and long u)
	was named for Gurudev's teacher, Swami Shri Kripalvanandaji.

	I was always really fascinated by who  I ended up with in
	diads -  as happened to Cindy and Peter's wife (by the way, what is
	her name so we can stop referring to her in the third person?!)
	and other such coincidences or "synchronicities," as Jung called them,
	such as Cindy's timing belt breaking at that particular
	stretch on such a long drive...

	Sorry to be so long-winded - Kripialu can be whatever you need
	it to be, if you know what I mean ;^) - feel free to ask any
	questions or contact me offline if you like!


			Jean (who's STILL trying to figure out what
			      to do with her life - and DOING it at
			      the same time! ;^) )

    
    Hi Jean!
    
    A change in the yoga approach - Gurudev has changed to (or perhaps back
    to) doing willful postures for the current time.  The residents are
    commenting on this change favorably...though it's a bit taxing for them
    on occasion!  The Kripalu 'flow' is still there, however it's more
    disciplined.  It 'felt' right anyway - just what should be happening at
    this time.
    
    I hope to take the "Capturing The Spirit Of Yoga" weeklong program this
    fall or winter, which Gurudev teaches it directly.     
    
    Cindy

    Cindy and Jean,
    
    I'm really interested in the Kripalu 7 day bodywork course...now if
    I just had the funds to allow me to take it.  ;')
    
    Ro
    

    
    Ro....maybe we could go out to Kripalu together sometime.  I've
    been wanting to attend a weekend program there for some time.
    
    Carole

    Sure Carole that would be great.  A weekend program wouldn't be as
    expensive as a weeklong course, so I could manage to save my pennies
    for that.
    
    We'll have to look at the Kripalu brochure next time we get together.
    8^) 
    
    Ro (who has always enjoyed your company in the workshops we've taken)
    
    

    
    I almost forgot to enter my latest experience at Kripalu here!
    
    A few weeks ago I took the week-long "Capturing The Spirit Of Yoga"
    program, given by Yogi Desai (Gurudev) himself.  It was *so* amazing!
    
    Each day we were up around 5-5:30 to get dressed and into the main
    hall/chapel area where we chanted until Gurudev arrived around 6am.
    Every morning the topic was different - the first day was an overview
    of Kripalu Yoga, then other morning topics included talks on
    relationships, loving, and living consciously, for a total of 6 
    mornings.  Each morning session went until 8:30 or so, including the 
    sharings where members of the audience have a chance to ask Gurudev 
    questions and share their experiences.  Up until this time, I did not
    have a sense of Gurudev except through videos, since he is traveling a
    lot and giving seminars elsewhere during the times I've been there, so
    to spend an entire week with him was wonderful.  I am so impressed by
    the messages he gives, and his approach to life.  And his sense of
    humor is great!  
    
    Then came breakfast, two hours of yoga in our individual groups
    according to ability, meditation or dance aerobics, lunch, break or
    meditation, afternoon session with more yoga and pranayams (breathing
    exercises).  Somewhere in here was time to either take a walk, or just
    sit on the beautiful grounds (or swim if you were up to the cold). 
    Or, if it was a cold day out, head for the sauna and whirlpool before
    dinner.  In the evenings there were activities in the main chapel area
    - one night a bunch of the residents had an entertainment night, and a
    fellow who was a professional entertainer composed his own lyrics to 
    the tune of "Tiptoe Through The Tulips":
    
          "I'm Ashvin, from the ashram
           I'm transforming on a daily basis
           Reaching homeostasis with life."
                       
    At one point I raced into the dorm to quickly change for the next 
    activity and mentioned to my lower bunkmate that it felt like going 
    from one party to the next.  She replied that some friends of hers 
    described Kripalu as a spiritual Club Med.  (;^)
    
    So many wonderful people - so many great memories.
    
    At the end of the week I felt incredible - body, mind and spirit.  And
    now having written this, I'm going to go home and spend an hour or so
    on yoga, breathing exercises and a brief meditation.
    
    Cindy
    
    PS. I met Gurudev's son, Malay, who is heading up a 3-week trip to
        India this November.  Unfortunately I couldn't go this time, 
        however he's considering going again next November.  If anyone is
        even remotely interested in going next November, contact me offline.

   This isn't about Kripalu Yoga - it's by another yogi who lived here in
   the US back in the '40's and '50's - Paramahansa Yogananda.  It is an
   excellent definition of the real purpose of yoga.

   Yogananda wrote "Autobiography Of A Yogi" - one of the best books I've
   ever read.  He also founded the Self-Realization Fellowship (SRF), an
   organization dedicated to providing support for people to realize their
   inborn divinity - their true selves.

   Kripalu Yoga is very similar to the definition below.  In addition to 
   including Hatha Yoga postures, it also adds an entire new dimension to
   the practice of yoga by emphasizing being conscious throughout the
   entire practice of the postures, in addition to the breathing exercises,
   meditation, and taking this witness consciousness into our every moment
   so that we become increasingly more aware of our being, the world we
   live in, and our impact upon it.

   Kripalu Yoga is the yoga of consciousness.

   Cindy

   ===========================================================================

   {From: The Essence of Self-Realization - the Wisdom of Paramahansa Yogananda"
          compiled by J.Donald Walters, p.109-111}

   The Need for Yoga

   A visitor: "What is yoga?"
   
   Paramahansa Yogananda: "Yoga means union. Etymologically, it is connected
   to the English word, yoke.  Yoga means union with God, or, union of the
   little, ego-self with the divine Self, the infinite Spirit. 

   "Most people in the West, and also many in India, confuse yoga with Hatha
   Yoga, the system of bodily postures.  But yoga is primarily a spiritual
   discipline. 

   "I don't mean to belittle the yoga postures.  Hatha Yoga is a wonderful
   system.  The body, moreover, is a part of our human nature, and must be
   kept fit lest it obstruct our spiritual efforts.  Devotees, however, who
   are bent on finding God give less importance to yoga postures.  Nor is it
   strictly necessary necessary that they practice them. 

   "Hatha Yoga is the physical branch of Raja Yoga, the true science of yoga.
   Raja Yoga is a system of meditation techniques that help to harmonize
   human consciousness with the divine consciousness. 

   "Yoga is an art as well as a science.  It is a science, because it offers
   practical methods for controlling body and mind, thereby making deep
   meditation possible.  And it is an art, for unless it is practiced
   intuitively and sensitively it will yield only superficial results. 

   "Yoga is not a system of beliefs.  It takes into account the influence on
   each other of body and mind, and brings them into mutual harmony.  So
   often, for instance, the mind cannot concentrate simply because of tension
   or illness in the body, which prevent the energy from flowing to the
   brain.  So often, too, the energy in the body is weakened because the will
   is dispirited, or paralyzed by harmful emotions. 

   "Yoga works primarily with energy in the body, through the science of
   pranayama, or energy-control.  Prana means also 'breath'.  Yoga teaches
   how, through breath-control to still the mind and attain higher states of
   awareness. 

   "The higher teachings of yoga take one beyond techniques, and show the
   yogi, or yoga practitioner, how to direct his concentration in such a way
   as not only to harmonize human with divine consciousness, but to merge his
   consciousness with the Infinite. 

   "Yoga is a very ancient science; it is thousands of years old.  The
   perceptions derived from its practice form the backbone of the greatness
   of India, which for centuries has been legendary.  The truths espoused in
   the yoga teachings, however, are not limited to India, nor to those who
   consciously practice yoga techniques.  Many saints of other religious
   also, including many Christian saints, have discovered aspects of the
   spiritual path that are intrinsic to the teachings of yoga. 

   "A number of them were what Indians, too, would accept as great yogis.
   They had raised their energy from body-attachment to soul-identity. 

   "They had discovered the secret of directing the heart's feeling upward in
   devotion to the brain, instead of letting it spill outward in restless
   emotion. They had discovered the portal of divine vision at the point
   between the eyebrows, through which the soul passes to merge in Christ
   Consciousness. 

   "They had discovered the secret of breathlessness, and how in
   breathlessness the soul can soar to the spiritual heights.  They had
   discovered the state which some of them call mystical marriage, when the
   soul merges with God and becomes one with Him. 

   "Yoga completes the biblical teaching on how one should love God: with
   heart, mind, soul - and strength. For strength means energy. 
  
   "The ordinary person's energy is locked in his body.  The lack of
   availability of that energy to his will prevents him from loving the Lord
   one-pointedly with any of the three other aspects of his nature: heart,
   mind, or soul.  Only when the energy can be withdrawn from the body and
   directed upward in deep meditation is true inner communion possible. 


   =========================================================================

   "What is the best religion?" queried a truth seeker.
   
   "Self-realization," Yogananda replied.

   "Self-realization is, in fact, the *only* religion.  For it is the 
   true purpose of religion, no matter how people define their beliefs.
   A person may be Christian or Jewish, Buddhist or Hindu, Moslem or
   Zoroastrian; he may proclaim that Jesus Christ is the only way, or
   Buddha, or Mohammed - as indeed, millions of believers do.  He may 
   insist that this ritual, or that place of worship, bestows salvation.

   "But it all comes down to what he is, in himself.  ...

   Your religion is not the garb you wear outwardly, but the garment of
   light you weave around your heart.  By outward garb I don't mean your
   physical rainment only, but rather the thoughts and beliefs in which 
   you enclose yourself.  They are not *you*.  

   Discover who you are, behind those outer trappings, and you will
   discover who Jesus was, and Buddha, and Krishna.  For masters come 
   to Earth for the purpose of holding up to every man a reflection of
   his deeper, eternal Self.

From the Kripalu Program Calendar:

Kripalu Center is a non-profit, volunteer organization dedicated to 
promoting personal and spiritual growth, and providing humanitarian service 
and education to people of all backgrounds, races, and creeds.  Named for
the eminent yoga master Swami Shri Kripalvanandaji, Kripalu Center is
founded on the belief that all humanity belongs to one family and that the
Divine dwells within each one of us.  

Kripalu Center is staffed by members of the Kripalu Yoga Fellowship, a
religious order based on the yogic teachings of vairagya (simplicity),
brahmacharya (celibacy outside of marriage), and tapascharya (willful
spiritual discipline).  Members of the Fellowship live and work 
full-time at Kripalu Center, practicing a simple life of love, service 
and surrender through reliance on the spiritual teachings of yoga.

All  of the programs at Kripalu Center are based on the yogic principle 
that purity and harmony of body and mind are central to spiritual 
evolution and in-depth inner growth.  Thus, all of the activities at 
Kripalu Center are geared toward bringing the individual to new levels 
of vibrant health, peace of mind, and spiritual attunement.

From:  The New York Times, Sunday, April 7, 1991, Travel Section

No-Frills Spas - by Trish Hall
--------------

Kripalu Center, Lenox, Mass.  

Kripalu is not a spa, or at least, it doesn't call itself one.  It is a 
nonprofit yoga and meditation center that draws people seeking a more 
spiritual life.  But like a spa, Kripalu offers a chance to learn 
something new, to regenerate.  I thought I could drift into my own 
reverie, abandon the intensity of the city, stretch out in some yoga 
classes and eat some healthy food.

My initiation into nirvana, however, was not auspicious.  By the time I 
arrived at the registration desk for a two-day visit, I was in a rage 
more typical of New York than the bucolic Berkshires.  I had been 
circling the parking lot for at least 10 minutes, unable to find a place 
until I gave up and broke the first of Kripalu's many rules:  I parked 
on the grass.

Kripalu is not a place that exists solely for the comfort of its 
visitors.  It is a community of people who are seeking a spiritual path 
as followers of Yogi Amrit Desai while living at the center, which is a 
few miles from Lenox, perhaps best known for the summer concerts at 
Tanglewood.

Guests at Kripalu, while treated cordially, are also left to their own 
devices.  They are a bit like students: they are there to learn and 
nobody pays much attention to them unless they are bad.

Even the physical setting seems like a school.  The sprawling brick 
building is institutional.  Classrooms, meeting rooms and dining room 
are spread out over four stories. There are large dormitory-style rooms 
as well as individual rooms that can be singly or shared.  They are 
clean and functional but devoid of any deliberate beauty. 

Although days and nights at Kripalu are structured, there is no pressure 
to participate in anything.  No one pushes philosophy on you.  The day 
begins and ends with meditation.  On a typical day, there will be two 
yoga classes, a guided walk through the grounds, instructional videos 
that can be viewed in the common area and an evening celebration that 
includes prayer and chanting.  Sometimes there is a guest lecturer on 
some aspect of spiritual life.  By 9:30, the hallways are dark, and 
voices are kept to a whisper.

Food is presented buffet style in a large dining room divided down the 
middle by the serving area.  Although murmuring is allowed at some 
meals, silence is required when a sign is posted.  Couples who come to 
Kripalu are encouraged to redirect their energy from physical connection 
to spiritual growth.  But they are allowed to eat together and, more 
often than not, they gravitate to the men's section.

The food, all vegetarian and made with very little fat, is wonderful.  
This is not spa cuisine, which seeks to mimic the look and cooking style 
of three-star restaurants.  This is high-quality hippie food, with many 
macrobiotic dishes but without strict adherence to that method of 
eating.  The meals reflect the kind of devoted labor that makes 
vegetarian cooking so time consuming: freshly cooked cut-up beets in the 
salad bar or just-baked bread made with many grains which is both light 
and chewy.

There was always a choice of entree.  Breakfast offered hot and cold 
cereals, fruits and muffins.  Lunch one day was parsnip, leek and yam 
soup followed by home fries topped with homemade ketchup.  Dinner one 
night was baked beans, with a side of collard greens steamed with 
carrots and rice.  Dessert was always fruit: a choice of a banana, an 
orange or an apple.  The only misfire was a millet casserole; it tasted 
like glue.

When I wasn't marveling at my ability to gain weight even on low-fat 
vegetarian food, I was reveling in the massages, which are available in 
a calm and professional health services center that also offers the 
chance to consult with a holistic doctor.  Massage, reflexology, facials 
and a flotation tank are available, at about $50 extra for each session. 
 The two massages I tried were among the best I have ever had.  Kripalu 
Bodywork massage was firm but soothing.  Shiatsu was 90 minutes of pain 
and pleasure as fingers and palms pressed into acupressure points.

When a masseuse hit a number of sore points in the back of my head, she 
said the pain was from tension.  "You're trying to make everything work 
out," she said. "You're trying to control everything, and you can't do
that."  She consoled me by saying that some guests are so tense that 
they cannot endure more than the most gentle touch.

Pictures of Yogi Amrit Desai watch over the visitors and staff alike.  
The classes are clear enough for beginners but far more sophisticated 
than the typical yoga classes taught at health clubs and spas.  
Schedules for each day's activity are posted, but sometimes there are 
surprises.  Once, in search of the evening prayer meeting, I stumbled 
into the wrong room and found a t'ai chi class.

There are hours in the day, however, when little is planned.  During 
good weather, guests can hike through the nearby trains or along the 
country roads or go swimming in the lake.

Time takes on a different quality in such a quiet environment.  Even 
the rule that guests wear modest clothing (sweat suits instead of 
leotards, for example) contributes to a feeling of calm and purity.  A 
day seemed like a week.  There was no television, no radio, no need to 
talk to anyone.  In many spas, the socializing takes place at the dinner 
table or just before and after classes.  But at Kripalu, there isn't the 
expectation of conversation.  Being naturally reserved, I simply stopped 
speaking for two days.  It was so quiet that the sound of the heater in 
my bedroom became an annoyance.  In New York, it would have faded into 
the general cacophony.

Because I wasn't used to an early bedtime, I stayed in my room alone 
for hours in the evening, reading magazines and books, even studying 
People magazine's story about "Princes Di and Charles."  I read a novel 
in one sitting from beginning to end, something I associate with 
childhood, when the only obligation consisted of turning off the bedroom 
light and turning on the flashlight.

By the end of my second day, I had lost all desire for chocolate, my one 
true addiction.  Time had slowed to almost nothing.  I was calm.  I was 
relaxed.  And, although I am sometimes embarrassingly resistant to the 
whole idea of a spiritual path, I could see how life in this community 
could be rich.  

On the final morning, I picked up my bowl of cornflakes and headed for 
my customary solitary seat in the dining room.  Only then did I realize 
that absolutely no one was talking.  Every pair of eyes was raised to 
the large windows, looking with awe at the falling snow.  It was a
genuinely transcendent moment.

                 Kripalu Center for Yoga and Health
                 Post Office Box 793
                 Lenox, Mass. 01240
                 (413) 637-4747

                 Rates start at $60 a night for accommodations
                 in a dormitory-style room.  Private rooms 
                 without bath are about $135 a night, but
                 vary depending on the program offered.  
                 Massages and facials start at $50.  Kripalu
                 can accommodate 275 visitors at a time in
                 addition to the 300 followers of the guru
                 who live and work there.

    
NOTE - Dr. Jeffrey A. Migdow is on the staff at Kripalu Center.
    
    
From: "Take A Deep Breath", by Dr. James E. Loehr & Dr. Jeffrey A. Migdow
                            1986, p.79-91

The Nose
--------

Another important aspect of the physiology of breathing is the effect of 
breathing through the nose alone.  It is much more beneficial to breathe 
through the nose than through the mouth.  Thousands of hairs inside the 
nose, both visible hairs and the microscopic hairs called cilia, filter 
the air breathed through the nose.  (And as we've said, the waiving 
action of the cilia rejects trapped mucus filled with dirt.  Blowing 
one's nose is the final step in the protective process.  The nose 
knows: it constitutes the front-line defense against air pollution.

When air enters the body through the nostrils, the nasal turbinae (bones 
of the nasal passage), and the throat, it is warmed and humidified.  By 
the time it reaches the lungs, it is at about body temperature.  Lungs 
re more efficient with warm air.  This fact can be demonstrated easily.  
Go outdoors on a cold day.  Through your mouth, gulp frigid air into 
your lungs.  You will feel a tightening, a core tension from antagonized 
lungs.  When engaging in strenuous physical activity in cold weather, 
you must adjust to the temperature.

Breathing through the nose directly affects the central nervous system.  
Nerve receptors in the nose are part of the olfactory system; in other 
words, they are our sense of smell.  But the olfactory system does more 
than transmit odors to the conscious mind.  It is linked with the 
evolutionary, ancient limbic system seen in action when the 
fight-or-flight response was examined - a predator's scent in the air 
triggered immediate reactions in the nervous system of the prey.  It is 
part of the brain most dominant in less evolved forms of life, the forms 
that operate purely on instinct.  There is some scientific evidence to 
suggest that by manipulating nasal breathing, it is also possible to 
build energy, induce relaxation, heighten awareness, even enhance 
creativity.  Breathing unequally or alternately through the nostrils 
does the trick.

It sounds amazing, but it shouldn't.  it is simply another case of 
taking advantage of natural breathing patterns, of placing them under 
conscious control.

As it is, there is a tendency for one nostril to predominate over the 
other during the course of the day.  Most healthy people will 
unconsciously switch the dominant nostril every one and one-half to two 
hours.  This cycle has been confirmed by scientifically controlled 
studies.  You can demonstrate it to yourself.  At various times during 
the day, gently stop up one nostril with a thumb, then the other 
nostril.  You will easily discern through which nostril the air is 
flowing more smoothly.

How does all this relate to the central nervous system?  Research on the 
brain function and structure during the past two decades has revealed 
that the sides (or hemispheres) of the brain have separate general 
functions.  The right side of the brain, which controls the left side of 
the body, is the center of creative, nonlinear processes, such as 
intuition, design, art, music, and imagination.  It is also the center 
of integration and receptivity.  The left side predominantly controls 
rational linear processes, such as thinking, speaking, and writing.  
From it flow detail and order and focused activity.  One hemisphere is 
not superior to the other, and integration of both is needed for 
reaching full potential.  At different times, however, one hemisphere or 
the other may dominate our functioning.  It is advantageous to control 
this dominance in order to meet the needs of a particular activity.  
Controlled breathing may prove to be the key to such control.

Research accomplished at the University of California at San Diego 
indicates that the nasal breathing cycle corresponds to the dominance of 
the left or the right hemisphere of the brain.  The researcher David 
Shannahoff-Khalsa suggests that the cycle of hemispheric dominance 
could be manipulated by using breathing techniques: "Closing the right 
nostril and forcibly breathing through the left nostril produces greater 
EEG [electroencephalograph] activity in the right brain, and vice versa. 
 These changes in the pattern of EEG dominance occur almost 
instanteously; at most, they require periods of about five minutes.  
Occasionally, after ten or fifteen minutes of this breathing exercise, a 
permanent shift occurs.

What this means is that there is now a tool with which our state of mind 
can be adapted to the task at hand.  A few minutes of breathing through 
the right nostril better prepares a person for mathematical or 
language-oriented work.  A few minutes of breathing through the left 
nostril summons creative powers.  "There is a true science of 
breathing," Mr. Shannahoff-Khalsa notes.  "Discovering this is like 
finding a new sense."

With the use of the EEG and other sophisticated instruments, medical 
science seems to be converging with some ancient traditions of breath 
control.  Long ago, yogis discovered that the right nostril (left brain) 
is the fiery or heating nostril and the left nostril (right brain) the 
cooling nostril.  Breathing through the right nostril creates more heat 
in your system; breathing through your left nostril seems to cool you.

Using specific-nostril-breathing techniques can be difficult if the nose 
is stuffy or runny.  There are simple techniques, aside from blowing 
one's nose, that can be employed to open the nostrils without resorting 
to medications, which work  only for some people anyway,.  the 
mechanisms by which these methods function are still unclear, but there
is no reason they should not be tried.

If your left nostril is stuffed, feel the occipital bone on the back of 
your head, or directly beneath it, where the bone ends about half an 
inch left of center.  You will find a spot there that hurts a little bit 
if you press on it.  Rub your thumb gently around this spot for ten to 
fifteen seconds.  You should feel your sinuses clear.

Another way to effect this clearing is to put pressure under the armpit 
on the side opposite to the nostril that is blocked.  Apply pressure for 
ten to fifteen seconds.  For maximum effectiveness, press your armpit 
over the back of a chair or the support span of a crutch.  You may be 
surprised by the results.

The discovery of the connection between the nasal cycle and the cycle  
of hemispheric dominance in the brain helps to explain the 
effectiveness of the ancient yogic practice of Alternate Nostril 
Breathing, which instills balance and clarity, and integrates mental 
faculties.  Instead of boosting one cerebral hemisphere or the other, 
the Alternate Nostril Breath stimulates both hemispheres equally, 
suspending momentarily the cycle of hemispheric dominance.  As with some 
other breathing techniques, this one should be practiced when you are 
sitting quietly and won't be disturbed.

The Alternate Nostril Breath

1. Do a few relaxing Abdominal Breaths in a sitting position and 
   stretch a bit to get in the mood.

2. Close your right nostril with your right thumb and inhale through
   your left nostril for two counts [no more than 2/3rds of lung 
   capacity - CP]

3. Close your left nostril with your right fourth finger [ring finger
   - your middle two fingers can be either bent down or placed just
   above the bridge of nose - CP] and hold your breath for a count of
   eight.  Both nostrils are now closed.

4. Open your right nostril and exhale through it for a count of four.

5. Inhale through your open right nostril for a count of two. [Or, 
   repeat step 2 - CP]

6. Close your right nostril and hold your breath for a count of eight.

7. Open your left nostril and exhale through it for a count of four.

8. Repeat Steps 2 through 7 for five to fifteen minutes.  Use a timer to 
   mark the minutes; otherwise you will keep peeking to see how much 
   time has passed.  Make your counts slow and consistent. [I use one
   second for each count - say "one thousand one, one thousand two, etc. 
   - CP]  If you feel fidgety, rock slowly back and forth.

NOTE - as with any breathing technique that involves breath-holding, you 
      must consult with your physician on Alternate Nostril Breathing if 
      you have a history of heart disease, stroke, or high blood pressure.


Alternate Nostril Breathing becomes easier over time.  Ultimately, the 
calmness and clarity gained will continue through the day.  You may even 
experience lights, colors and sounds.  Don't be alarmed; they are merely 
representations of the movement of energy through your body, and are as 
natural a phenomenon as dreaming.

The Alternate Nostril Breath appears simple, but some people may find it 
difficult to sustain.  The overactive mind may rebel against the calming 
procedure.  Stick with it even if you feel distracted or fatigued; the 
rewards can be ample, such as in dealing with coughs, asthma, poor 
circulation, and memory loss.

    An interesting series of conclusions, but I notice that it was very
    very vague on explanations on why things happen. Also I saw very little
    in the way of figures. Most research usually finds that not all people
    are affected equally by something, however here there is again
    vagueness. There was also a lack of references to any published results
    that could be consulted. The one reference to unidentified research at
    the University of California did not give any details of any published
    results, or for that matter comment if the experiments conducted there
    had been successfully repeated by others.

    However I shall spend the rest of today checking if my nostrils
    alternate. My left nostril was doing all the work, however I just blew
    my nose and the load has now settled equally between them.

    Jamie.

	Jamie,
	
	Why ask why (ask the Bud Dry commercial asks :-)
	Believe it if you need it.
	If you don't just pass it on.
	
	Gratefully,  ;-)
	Jay

    
    Re.19
    
    Jamie,
    
    I've spent a long time now doing pranayams (breathing exercises). 
    I can say conclusively that they work for me. They've also worked 
    for several hundred thousand yoga students over the centuries.  
    Give them a try.  See for yourself.
    
    Sorry the information did not contain enough facts and figures to
    satisfy your need for them.  Will you not try the exercises until 
    your intellect is satisfied?  
    
    Cindy

    As Jay (and Budweiser) say, Why ask why? Isn't it enough to know that
    something wither works for you or doesn't. I know little about Yoga,
    beyond what Cindy has written and watching our former facility nurse
    bend herself into some very interesting positions :-) doing some
    exercises.  I've tried some of the breathing exercises and found
    certain symptoms of problems disappearing. Headaches, sore throats and
    stress. I used the headache one this morning and it went within a
    minute. I know it works. I don't need to know why.
    
    PJ

    >Why ask why? 

    To find out the answer of course. If I just accept everything that I am
    told as unquestionably true I would be very gullible indeed.

    >Isn't it enough to know that something wither works for you or doesn't.

    No. It requires proof.

    I am sorry but this world is full of people who write books, in which
    they prove, to their entire satisfaction, that their views are true. I
    have on several occasions found medical articles used to back up these
    claims. On obtaining a copy of said articles I discover that they have
    been extensively misquoted and in some cases they had nothing
    whatsoever do do with the case that was being proved.

    So even if thousands of Yoga students find this helpful, I want to know
    if breathing up one nostril rather than the other has any effect in
    this. So far I have had no valid evidence presented, several theories
    which were to vague to be proved one way or the other, and some
    theories which didn't hold water at all. None were even remotely
    viable.

    All of the effects mentioned could easily be explained by the placebo
    effect, but no efforts seem to have been made to eliminate even this.

    For my experiment, most of the day my left nostril did most of the
    work. The few exceptions were when I blew my nose to clear it, then
    both worked with equal efficiency. I noticed no cyclic change.

    Jamie.

    Re .24

    >If you are truly seeking answers, you'll ask fewer questions.
 
    Absolute rubbish. This is nothing but a childish platitude to stop
    people asking awkward questions. If you are truly wanting to believe
    something then you ask fewer questions. If you seek the truth you ask
    and ask.

    >Hey, it either works or it doesn't work.  There's the proof.
 
    No if it works then it works because of something. I want to know why.
    And how well it works. You are a bit simplistic in your works or
    doesn't work.

    >This has nothing to do with anything here.
 
    In detail no, but in principle yes. I am being asked to believe
    someone without a shred of evidence. The pattern of half truths and
    lack of references is very similar.

    >Why don't you simply try it and quit whining.
 
    The number of people who believe in a theory has no relevance in the
    truth or falsehood of it.

     >There is no placebo affect here.  It either works, or it doesn't.
 
    You clearly have no concept of what is meant by the placebo effect.
    The placebo effect, in some cases works most effectively.

    >Why are you telling us?
 
    In one experiment, at least, it didn't work. I thought this might
    interest you.

    Jamie.

    Folks -- refering to someone "whining" is "fighting words," which
    is explicitly disallowed by this conferences charter.  Let's cool it.

				    Topher

Re: .25


>    >If you are truly seeking answers, you'll ask fewer questions.
> 
>    Absolute rubbish. This is nothing but a childish platitude to stop
>    people asking awkward questions. If you are truly wanting to believe
>    something then you ask fewer questions. If you seek the truth you ask
>    and ask.


Actually, there are many instances where if you don't ask questions, but use
your eyes, ears, and nose, you may learn as much or more (and you won't anger
whomever is instructing you).  This is not childish, but rather much more
mature than just asking questions.  And, Jamie, if you really want the answers,
don't expect others to hand them to you.  Go seek them yourself.  One of the
responses was a doctor's writeup, and included the doctor's name.  You could
look up the source, and check his bibliography.  I'm sure it will point you to
documents with sufficient numbers to keep you happy.

>    >Why are you telling us?
> 
>    In one experiment, at least, it didn't work. I thought this might
>    interest you.

On the same grounds that you have not accepted other's personal experiments/
experiences, why should we accept yours.  Your descriptions clearly indicate that
your ability to utilize your nasal passages is impaired at this time anyway, so
I would not expect your results to be indicative of anything.  Having suffered
from sinus infections myself, I have experienced what you described, and even
when I appear to be using both nostrils (feeling air flow in both), doing as
described (close one, inhale, close the other, and inhale) DOES show me that one
is less open than the other.  With my understanding of aerodynamics, this 
indicates that more air is passing through one than the other, making it more 
dominant.  Remember, the doctor in the earlier entry didn't say no air passed 
through the "unused" nostril, just that it was not "in control".

Beth

    It seems to me the person who (apparently passively) stands
    around absorbing the environment and learning therefrom is
    also asking questions.  We just don't hear them.
    
    Joel
    

	Moderator's warning acknowleged.
	.26 has been deleted by the author.
	
	Doesn't change a thing  ;-)
	
	Jay

    Re .28

    >Actually, there are many instances where if you don't ask questions,
    >but use your eyes, ears, and nose, you may learn as much or more (and
    >you won't anger whomever is instructing you).  

    On these points I fully agree. However my complaint was that I was
    required to have blind acceptance and the reasoning for this seemed to
    come from the august source of a beer commercial.

    It is normal when writing a scientific article to include any sources
    or references made within the article to facilitate access to the
    original articles of anyone who is reading it. However I have noticed
    that "pseudo" scientific articles regularly omit them. I have also
    found that this omission often covers up misquotations. 

    If the doctor had any faith in his conclusions he would be following
    this method. Or perhaps he doesn't want us to look too closely.

    Jamie.

Re: .32

Jamie, .18 is an excerpt from a book.  The book is mentioned (a reference).
Without having seen the book, can you say that the author DOESN'T list his
sources?  Seek the answer for yourself, Jamie, don't expect/accept it from
here. 

And conversely, don't reject/deny it from here blindly as well.

Happy Holidays,
Beth

    Living in a country in which English is not the native language I have
    very restricted access to books in English, to be precise there are
    only two shops specialising in English books. This restricted access
    also limits the range of books on offer and the books not found in a
    general bookshop are unavailable to me.

    However I notice that the author of .18 has not given any references
    that were present in the original.

    When you are writing a paper on a piece of research you always use
    references to other research which guided you on you way. Also if you
    got different results from others you point this out. 

    If you have an idea and can't prove it you write a book and there you
    can make any claims you want and leave others to prove you wrong. And
    you may rest assured that no matter what you write there will be some
    out there who will believe every word of it.

    Jamie.

                                                     
    Re.34
    
    Jamie,
    
    If you're *truly* interested in finding out more about the breathing
    experiments that were mentioned in the book extract in .18, I have met
    the author (Dr.Migdow) at Kripalu several times and can give you his 
    phone number for you to call and discuss the material.  He is a resident 
    there.  Granted it is a long distance call for you, however if you're 
    really interested, you're certainly welcome to contact him.  Or I can
    provide the address for you as well, so that you can correspond with
    him.  I'm sure he would be happy to provide the details you are
    seeking (that is, if you are genuinely seeking...).
    
    Cindy

    Cindy, transatlantic calls are rather expansive. All I wanted was a
    reference to the research mentioned in the article that you quoted. If
    I can get that then I can get hold of a copy of the research paper and
    read it for free. 

    Jamie.

    Jamie,
    
    "transatlantic calls are rather expAnsive..."  Was that a Freudian
    slip?  ;-)  ;-)  ;-)
    
    Mary  ;-)  ;-)  ;-)

    A Freudian slip on the part of the spelling checker and me. I usually
    run it over every reply and sometimes I'm not paying enough attention
    to the correction offered.

    Jamie.

    That's good, Jamie.  Blame it on spell check!
    
    Mary ;-)  ;-)  ;-)

    
    Re.prior note
    
    Jamie,
    
    In lieu of calling, here is the address for one of the fellows who 
    wrote the book:
    
           Dr. Jeffery Migdow
           c/o Kripalu Center
           Box 793
           Lenox, MA  01240
           USA
    
    Let us know what you find out.  He may even be able to send you a copy
    of the report, thus saving you from looking it up yourself.
    
    If he can send you a copy of the report, to save him postage to Holland, 
    you can have him send it to me here at work and I'll read it and then 
    forward it on to you:
    
           Cindy Painter
           LKG2-2/N1
           c/o Digital Equipment Corporation
           550 King St.
           Littleton, MA  01460-1289
    
    Cindy

    Jamie,
    
    I live near a Barnes and Noble (good bookstore with reduced prices) and
    I will be in Paris in April, so if you would like some books just say
    so. I could easily mail them from Paris as I will hopefully have
    plenty of time while I'm there. If you're interested, you might tell me 
    the publishers, so they could be ordered if they are not in stock.
    
    Eileen
    
    P.S. I enjoyed your travel pieces enormously!

    Re .39                       
    >                      -< ha!ha!ha!ha!ha! >-
    >That's good, Jamie.  Blame it on spell check!

    You obviously misread what I wrote. I made a typo and the spelling
    checker offered me a range of alternatives, I accepted the first
    without checking it too closely. Thus I am to blame on two counts, one
    the typo, and two the failure to pay attention to what the spelling
    checker offered. However the point that I was trying to make was that
    it was a very unlikely Freudian slip as I myself did not type the word,
    I was not, as you suggest, apportioning blame.

    Re .40  

    Let me explain what happened last year. Someone in America discovered a
    book that cast serious doubt on many things that are taken as proven
    facts. This marvelous book was being quoted by this person left right
    and centre, in an other conference BTW. This book was considered by
    this person to be above and beyond all other books on the subject,
    especially "conventional" ones.

    After a great deal of time and effort I obtained my copy of a book that
    cost $10.95 in the USA at an approximate cost of $45 for me. Surprise
    surprise it was mainly junk. Most of the "scientific" theory was
    emotional rubbish, it contained a lot of outright lies, many half
    truths, loads of unsubstantiated claims and many many contradictions.
    To put it bluntly it wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. Since
    then I have been a bit more careful about ordering books that someone
    else thinks are good.

    Now Cindy are you telling me that this guy wrote a book in which he
    made specific mention of a series of scientific experiments carried out
    at a major university and he omitted to give any reference whatsoever
    to any published results? I really do find this most odd. When I read
    any scientific article I find references substantiating every claim
    made.

    Re.41 

    Eileen, your offer is most generous however are you aware of the cost
    of postage from Holland to France? I regularly have to post video
    tapes, not quite as heavy as books and it costs about $6 a pair. 

    However if you could pick up the book that Cindy mentioned and mail it
    to me I would be happy to reimburse you for any costs.
    
    >P.S. I enjoyed your travel pieces enormously!

    You have just reminded me that I have still to finish the USA trip
    report for last year. I did get part one out, which included my meeting
    with Cindy, but the rest is only half done. I spend too much time
    writing notes.

    Jamie.

                                               
    Re.42
    
    Jamie,
    
    What I quoted in the book is what exists.  So there's no need to have
    Eileen obtain it for you, because what you saw is what there is.
    
    In order to obtain additional details, write the doctor directly at
    Kripalu Center.  While it would be relatively easy for me to do this
    for you, I don't really have the time, and I've got more important
    things to do anyway.  Regardless whether modern science has proven 
    that the technique has scientific basis, the technique *works* for 
    me regardless and apart from any proof that exists to satisfy the minds
    of those who haven't yet given it a try.  And if someday I happen to
    read the results of the studies quoted, then great.
    
    It isn't an issue of me believing blindly what is in the book that
    doesn't quote its sources (which is what you are accusing the doctor
    of, yes?)  Experientially the technique works for me in the way that 
    it states (and before reading the book, I learned from the doctor
    directly), so what more proof do I personally need?  I quoted the book 
    and the referenced studies for your benefit, not for mine.  If they're
    incorrect or the statements by the doctor are deliberately misleading,
    it doesn't change the impact of my practicing the technique and getting
    the same results experientially one iota.   
    
    Again, try the technique for a month or two, and if it doesn't work for
    you, then forget it.  And if you're *seriously* interested in obtaining 
    additional information from the doctor, you have his address.  Write to 
    him yourself.  If he doesn't reply, then I'll see him again in March
    and will be happy to ask him then.
                                      
    Cindy

    re: .42  Actually, Jamie, whether you actually typed the misspell or
    whether you missed the spellcheck correction is irrelevent to whether
    or not it was a case of Freudian slip.  Freudian slips are not
    typo-specific.  Any mistake can qualify.  In fact, some go so far as to
    say there are no mistakes...
    
    Mary :-)

    Re .44 

    >In fact, some go so far as to say there are no mistakes... 

    Then these people should see what one of my notes looks like before I
    reread it and run the spelling checker over it. In some cases they are
    totally unintelligible.

    Re .43

    Cindy, when someone is trying to explain a theory to you they go
    through it step by step providing back up evidence, usually this
    consists of experiments conducted independent of them. They also tell
    you of any failures and the causes of failures. When someone is trying
    to make you believe something, they baldly state things that look like
    facts but are hazy and reluctant to provide any backup. Also their
    experiments seldom seem to fail.

    With the left nostril verses the right nostril, a valid test would not
    be to get 100 students, tell them that breathing through the left
    nostril would cause effect A and through the right nostril would cause
    effect B. Then wait for a month and ask them how they felt about the
    idea, as this would be wide open to all sorts of errors.

    A valid test would be to take 100 students at one university and tell
    them the above, take another 100 students at another university and
    tell them the opposite, that is left nostril gives effect B and right
    effect A. For good measure take 100 students from a third university and
    ask them to breath through each nostril, inform of the effects A and B
    but don't tell them which nostril causes which effect.

    After a month get the results. If there is anything in the theory there
    then should be a statistical significance difference in the results.
    That is effect A should be linked to the left nostril in all three
    groups and B to the right nostril.

    If you get the first group giving a majority vote to what you told them
    to expect, the second doing the same and the third more or less evenly
    split then you are observing the placebo effect at work and the theory
    is so much hogwash.

    The fact that "it works for you" is not really relevant. You were told
    what to expect and so it for you it works.

    When a doctor prescribes a patent a drug he tells the patient of any
    major side effects however he does not tell the patient of every side
    effect. The reason is; if he did list every side effect a surprising
    number of his patients would experience these side effects and come back
    and complain. As a result he would get very little real work done.

    Jamie.
              

  
  Re .45
  
  > Then these people should see what one of my notes looks like before I 
  > reread it and run the spelling checker over it. In some cases they are
  > totally unintelligible.                                               
  
  Ahhh ... no ... let's be nice for a bit longer into 1992 ... :-)
  
  Frank

    re: .45 (Jamie)
    
          I love it!  The "placebo effect," that is.  What an interesting
    concept.  "Let's see, we'll scientifically, logically, and very
    intelligently test for 'what is' by following xyz, but we will
    make sure we discount 'the *placebo effect.*"  [Now appearing,
    at a theater near you, "The Sheep from Hell," starring Joe Scientist
    and his famous wonder-dog, Shep.]
          What in the world do you suppose the placebo effect is all
    about?  It certainly couldn't be the power of the mind to 
    determine the outcome of physical reality, could it?  Nah!  Too
    simple-minded; not scientific enough.
    
    Frederick
    

                                           
    Re.45
    
    Jamie,
    
    >Cindy, when someone is trying to explain a theory to you they go
    >through it step by step providing back up evidence, usually this
    >consists of experiments conducted independent of them. They also tell
    >you of any failures and the causes of failures. When someone is trying
    >to make you believe something, they baldly state things that look like
    >facts but are hazy and reluctant to provide any backup. Also their
    >experiments seldom seem to fail.

    Jamie - if you have not yet contacted the doctor to ask him to provide
    the details, how can you assume that he is hazy and reluctant to
    provide any backup?
    
    The reluctance I see here is your reluctance to contact him for
    additional information.
    
    You can start the letter by writing:  Dear Dr. Migdow...
    
    
    >With the left nostril verses the right nostril, a valid test would not
    >be to get 100 students, tell them that breathing through the left
    >nostril would cause effect A and through the right nostril would cause
    >effect B. Then wait for a month and ask them how they felt about the
    >idea, as this would be wide open to all sorts of errors.

    Again, contact him for the information and then you will know exactly
    how the experiments were carried out.
    
    
    >A valid test would be to take 100 students at one university and tell
    >them the above, take another 100 students at another university and
    >tell them the opposite, that is left nostril gives effect B and right
    >effect A. For good measure take 100 students from a third university and
    >ask them to breath through each nostril, inform of the effects A and B
    >but don't tell them which nostril causes which effect.

    Great.  Contact him to see how they did the experiments.
    
    
    >After a month get the results. If there is anything in the theory there
    >then should be a statistical significance difference in the results.
    >That is effect A should be linked to the left nostril in all three
    >groups and B to the right nostril.

    Contact him.
    
    
    >If you get the first group giving a majority vote to what you told them
    >to expect, the second doing the same and the third more or less evenly
    >split then you are observing the placebo effect at work and the theory
    >is so much hogwash.

    Contact him.
    
    
    >The fact that "it works for you" is not really relevant. You were told
    >what to expect and so it for you it works.

    I can remain impartial enough, and skeptical enough, of someone claiming
    something that I am able to judge the effects the breathing exercises
    upon my body and consciousness with or without being told what to
    expect.  I tried it, and it has worked for me.  If I had tried it 
    and it hadn't worked for me, I would say so.
    
    When I was under the care of one doctor for migraines, he told me to
    take some medicine and that it would work.  Lo and behold, I took the
    medicine and it only made me sicker.  He did this to me three times,
    then I stopped going to him altogether.
    
    
    >When a doctor prescribes a patent a drug he tells the patient of any
    >major side effects however he does not tell the patient of every side
    >effect. The reason is; if he did list every side effect a surprising
    >number of his patients would experience these side effects and come back
    >and complain. As a result he would get very little real work done.

    Which is why I own a copy of the PDR (Physician's Desk Reference) so
    that if I experience any side effects due to the drug prescribed, I can
    look it up before contacting the doctor again.  One time it just about
    saved my life.
    
    It is ironic that you need to know *everything* before taking a drug or
    doing something (the breathing exercises), and yet you seem to support 
    the idea of doctors not giving out drug information on the side effects.  
    Interesting.
    
    I prefer too much information to not enough.  This notion of not 
    providing patients with all the information on the side effects of a
    particular drug is patronizing at best, and life-threatening at worst. 
    I speak from experience.
    
    Cindy     

    Frederick,
    
    It is called hypochondria and is considered hysterically funny --
    except by doctors.  Pain is interpreted by the brain, so that "Pain
    is all in your head." is -- in one sense -- a true statement.
    The placebo effect relates to how the `patient' interprets the
    ordinary twinges and imperfections of the body.  ~Ow!  It's a great,
    stabbing pain.~ (An ordinary twinge.)  ~Oh, with the medicine it's
    much better.~ (Another ordinary twinge.)  Et cetera.
    
    Cindy,
    
    If the good doctor did not describe the experiments THE FIRST TIME,
    when he was writing a book, for which he was paid, and which he
    could modify and edit (almost) to his heart's content, then there
    is NO good reason to believe that he would do so in an unpaid
    letter.  It was also very unprofessional behavior.
    
    						Ann B.
    

    re: Jamie
    
    Oops.  Now I made a mistake.  I should have written that some people go
    so far as to say, in that there are no *accidents* (in reference to
    accidents and mistakes), that at some level we know what we are doing
    and why, even if we are not consciously aware of it.
    
    Mary

    When I try alternate nostril breathing, I get a sensation of warmth in
    the lumbar region. Is this a placebo effect? My conscious mind said
    perhaps the breathing is stimulating the "chakra" associated with the
    instinctive center. Did an unconscious belief cause body to respond.
    There is a difference between scientific proof and cause and effect. My
    personal beliefs may effect outcomes but my power to believe is not
    sufficient to make placebos function very well. My unconscious mind
    seems to work on the principle "don't trust anyone(or thing) over
    thirty days." 
    
    johN

    re: .49 (Ann)
    
         You mean the placebo effect only affects hypochondriacs?
    Nah, you don't mean that!  
         The placebo effect is a well-established response to 
    "suggestion."  It works not just on "hypochondriacs."  It works
    on ordinary people who form a strong enough belief that they
    can effectively alter their reality (reality=[beliefs + emotions]
    x imagination) as would significantly altering the other 
    components of that equation also impact reality.
         And what does hysterically funny have to do with it?
    
    Frederick
    

    
    Re.49
    
    Ann,
    
    Given that I've met him personally and that he is a resident at
    Kripalu, I believe that the doctor would provide the details.  
    
    Cindy  

    Re .47

    Frederick you are even more obscure than usual in your reply, I can
    make neither head not tail of it.
    
    Re .48
     
    >The reluctance I see here is your reluctance to contact him for
    >additional information.
    
    Cindy, if the doctor had been writing a serious book he would have
    included such references me having to contact him is ridiculous. If
    this was commonplace in the scientific world, lots of false claims would
    get through. 
    
    I put it to you that he is trying to cover up something by ignoring the
    common courtesy of providing his source material along with his claim.
    It is not my job to prove him right or wrong it is his job to prove
    himself right. 

    No I will not contact him. He has failed to follow the rules, not me.

    >You can start the letter by writing:  Dear Dr. Migdow...
    
    How very patronising.

    >I can remain impartial enough, and skeptical enough, of someone claiming
    >something that I am able to judge the effects the breathing exercises
    >upon my body and consciousness with or without being told what to
    >expect.  I tried it, and it has worked for me.  If I had tried it 
    >and it hadn't worked for me, I would say so.
    
    And if you had been told that the effects would be the opposite way
    round would you have experienced something different? Or would you have
    experienced what you expected to experience?

    >When I was under the care of one doctor for migraines, he told me to
    >take some medicine and that it would work.  Lo and behold, I took the
    >medicine and it only made me sicker.  He did this to me three times,
    >then I stopped going to him altogether.
   
    As to the placebo effect it is a well established thing. You give
    someone an inert substance which does nothing and tell them it does
    something. A percentage of the people will get the effect that you told
    them. Your example of a drug which made you ill is not an example of
    the placebo effect as the drug was not an inert substance. 
    
    >Which is why I own a copy of the PDR (Physician's Desk Reference) so
    >that if I experience any side effects due to the drug prescribed, I can
    >look it up before contacting the doctor again.  One time it just about
    >saved my life.
    
    >It is ironic that you need to know *everything* before taking a drug or
    >doing something (the breathing exercises), and yet you seem to support 
    >the idea of doctors not giving out drug information on the side effects.  
    >Interesting.
    
    I need to know that the drug will treat the disease and make me well. I
    need to know that the drug will actually do something. So far no one
    has come up with any validated evidence that breathing through
    alternate nostrils does anything, and I haven't been informed of any
    side effects either.

    >I prefer too much information to not enough.  

    Really? For drugs yes, for alternative medicine you show little interest
    in any background information whatsoever. Blind acceptance is the name
    of the game there.

    >This notion of not providing patients with all the information on the
    >side effects of a particular drug is patronizing at best, and
    >life-threatening at worst.  I speak from experience.
    
    Side effects sometimes these appear in some patients and not in
    others. I have been given drugs that made me very ill, others use the
    same drugs with no ill effects. 

    As to your opinion that doctors are patronising by not telling patients
    of all the side effects of drug, well I suggest that you ask a doctor.
    For example until quite recently you had to have a smallpox vaccination
    before you were permitted to enter the USA. One of the possible side
    effects of this vaccination is death. Mind you this is a one in several
    million chance. How many doctors would tell their patients that before
    they administered the shot? Now I admit none would die a psychosomatic
    death but many would refuse the shot.

    I can assure you that if every doctor told every patient every side
    effect, the waiting rooms would be overcrowded with patients suffering
    from psychosomatic illnesses.

    .50 

    >Oops.  Now I made a mistake. 
    
    Shouldn't that read;

    Oops.  Now I made a Freudian slip. After all mistakes are out of fashion.

    Jamie.

    Re.54
    
    Jamie,

    Below is information from note .18.  If you won't contact the
    doctor at Kripalu, then you can contact the University of California 
    at San Diego, California, since apparently the research was done there.  
    Address your letter to David Shannahoff-Khalsa.

    Cindy


Attachment:
========================================================================
Re.18 

From: "Take A Deep Breath", by Dr. James E. Loehr & Dr. Jeffrey A. Migdow
                            1986, p.79-91
The Nose
--------

>Research accomplished at the University of California at San Diego 
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>indicates that the nasal breathing cycle corresponds to the dominance of 
>the left or the right hemisphere of the brain.  The researcher David 
>Shannahoff-Khalsa suggests that the cycle of hemispheric dominance 
>could be manipulated by using breathing techniques: "Closing the right 
>nostril and forcibly breathing through the left nostril produces greater 
>EEG [electroencephalograph] activity in the right brain, and vice versa. 
>These changes in the pattern of EEG dominance occur almost 
>instanteously; at most, they require periods of about five minutes.  
>Occasionally, after ten or fifteen minutes of this breathing exercise, a 
>permanent shift occurs.

>What this means is that there is now a tool with which our state of mind 
>can be adapted to the task at hand.  A few minutes of breathing through 
>the right nostril better prepares a person for mathematical or 
>language-oriented work.  A few minutes of breathing through the left 
>nostril summons creative powers.  "There is a true science of 
>breathing," Mr. Shannahoff-Khalsa notes.  "Discovering this is like 
>finding a new sense."

>With the use of the EEG and other sophisticated instruments, medical 
>science seems to be converging with some ancient traditions of breath 
>control.  Long ago, yogis discovered that the right nostril (left brain) 
>is the fiery or heating nostril and the left nostril (right brain) the 
>cooling nostril.  Breathing through the right nostril creates more heat 
>in your system; breathing through your left nostril seems to cool you.

Re: .54

>if the doctor had been writing a serious book he would have
>    included such

What is included depends on the audience.  I would not be surprised if the book
has a bibliography which points to all the documentation needed to describe the
experiments and such.  However, since this book was NOT written for members
of the medical field, but for lay persons, the author most likely chose not to 
make the reading dry and boring (a sure fire way to have the book remain unread 
by the intended audience).  The author's credentials SHOULD be enough to convince
a reader that this is not bogus information (although I admit there are many
bogus doctors with "proper" credentials, lessening the credibility of all with 
the title doctor).  Without the bibliography of the book, or verification of
credentials, the book may be questioned, but should NOT be dismissed out of
hand.

Beth

    Well Cindy I ran this one past Harry last night. He said that if the
    particular experiment was well known. like say the one in which Banting
    and Best discovered insulin, then no specific reference would be needed.
    However in all lesser cases a very specific reference would normally be
    made. 

    He also pointed out that if Dr Migdow's title implies that he is a
    registered medical practitioner, he must have read many scientific books
    and papers and should know this. Given the fact that the claim is, to
    say the least, a bit unusual he finds the omission of any references to
    claims made in the book very suspicious.

    Harry's only reactions to the quotation that you provided was a wry
    smile and the comment that anatomy was not Dr Migdow's long suit.

    Re .56

    Well Beth, neither of the Doctors credentials were mentioned. I know
    plenty of Doctors who have nothing to do with medicine, and one man who
    legally holds a full Doctorate of medicine but is not a registered
    medical practitioner. I have also read many books which are both
    serious and aimed at a general audience. There they tend to put numbers
    in subscript and list all references at the end of the book. But this
    does not appear to be the case here. The inevitable conclusion is that
    something is being hidden, or at least made difficult to be checked and
    one can but ask for what reason?

    Jamie.
                                                           

                                                                    
    Re.57
    
    Jamie,
    
    Well, since Harry is really cute and probably does a wry smile 
    equally as cute, then no doubt it was worth it all.  You can tell 
    him I said this. (;^}
    
    The book isn't meant to be an indepth analysis into the scientific
    analysis of exactly what impact the breath has on the physical
    structure.  The text provided to explain the experiment was more of 
    an 'oh by the way'.  The real purpose of the book, as I read it, is 
    to provide information on how to actually perform the breathing 
    techniques themselves.  Then you can give them a try and find out the
    benefits experientially.  That when one breathes using certain breaths,
    the peace of mind that accompanies it is rather difficult to measure,
    yet stress management classes have been teaching related techniques for
    years and people swear by them because they do work.  Yogis have known
    this for thousands of years.  And they work for me, regardless of any
    Western science proof that may or may not support my experience.
    
    If you do write for the study, contrary to what you believe about my
    blind faith in such things, I'd enjoy receiving a copy of it.  If there
    is time during my next trip to Kripalu, I may drop by to see Prabhakar 
    (Dr. Migdow's Sanskrit name) and have a chat about this whole thing if 
    he's around.
    
    Cindy

    Well Cindy you remember my comment, "If you had been told it was the
    other way round what would have been the effects on you?" This was a
    relevant question as Dr Migdow's observation that "Long ago, yogis
    discovered that the right nostril (left brain)  is the fiery or heating
    nostril and the left nostril (right brain) the  cooling nostril.", is in
    error. 

    Although the left brain controls the right hand side of the body and
    vice versa this is not 100% true. Your eyes are connected to both lobes
    while your ears and nostrils are connected directly to the lobe nearest
    to them. Thus the left nostril connects to the left lobe. So the
    opposite results should be noticed.

    However the sensory nerves, those which convey your sense of touch and
    pain, run back to your spinal column and are reversed. Thus touching
    the left nostril will cause this to register on the right lobe. Which
    may explain the extra activity on the EEG. 

    Jamie.

    How long does it take to drive to the center in Lenox, say from
    Littleton, Mass. (on Rt. 495)?  I'm assuming you cut through Worcester
    (290?) down to the Mass Pike.
    
    Thanks,
    Laura

    
    Re.59
    
    Jamie,
    
    I have not (yet) experienced the right nostril = fiery, left nostril =
    cooling directly, so I cannot support either your explanation or the
    book's explanation at this point.
    
    I do know, based on my own experience, that there are techniques one
    has to practice for a very long time before one becomes sensitive
    enough to discern something like this.  However at this point in time,
    I'm not sensitive enough to discern this yet.
    
    Contrary to what you seem to believe, I do not blindly believe the 
    book simply because it states something like what you quoted.  At this
    point, if you would like to discuss each and every line of the book and
    ask me if I've experienced it directly (and thus can support what the
    author writes via my own experiences), then I'm happy to do so.  And,
    I'm also quite willing to state when I have not had the experience,
    which you see above.  Lastly, if what the author writes is the opposite 
    of what I've experienced, then I'm quite willing to say that as well. 
    
    Btw, if I felt something in the book to be incorrect, I'd write the 
    doctor directly and tell him so.
    
    Cindy                                            

    So let me see, one school of thought is that one side of the brain
    controls certain moods while the other side of the brain controls
    others. Given the slightly erroneous piece of information that the left
    side of the body is controlled by the right side of the brain and vice
    versa, someone draws the conclusion that you can influence your moods by
    breathing through one nostril or the other.

    An elaborate theory is built up, some people are told what to expect,
    and a percentage of those people do get the result that they were told
    they would get.

    A more detailed look reveals that the olfactory nerves do not in fact
    crossover, but attach to the same side lobes of the brain. So the theory
    no longer fits the facts and must be modified or replaced.

    Another theory is that the people who experienced the required, but
    erroneous, effects are more suggestible than those who did not and that
    it makes no difference which nostril you breath through.

    Jamie.
              

RE: .62 (Jamie)

    The only problem with your theory, Jamie, is that the breathing
    exercises in question -- and their associated attributes -- date back
    centuries at the very least, and perhaps millenia.  I have seen books
    printed, I think, in the 20's (well before the modern theory of
    hemispheric specialization, in any case) which describe it.  They
    tie it into a "four current" yogic model (prana drawn in from above;
    a second current, whose name I forget, drawn from below; and two
    internal "eddy" currents, left and right, lunar and solar impelled
    by them -- when the whole system is working "in balance" the "kundalini
    force" ascends the spine).  When hemispheric specialization theory,
    particularly as a result of Sperry's split brain experiments the
    analogy was hard to resist.  Hemispheric specialization, in any case,
    stands as a reinterpretation of an effect (whatever its cause) and
    the that theory cannot have created the effect by self-fulfilling
    prophecy.

				Topher

    Wonderful, Topher you confuse the situation beautifully.

    However the concept was very specifically described as left nostril right
    brain and that is not the case. BTW the nerves in question go nowhere
    near the spinal column.

    However diligent research by Harry on the computer at work has managed
    to turn up some reference to the article quoted by Cindy. With luck I
    may have an abstract soon and it we are very lucky a photocopy of the
    original, if the magazine it was published in has a wide enough
    circulation. 

    Jamie.                                                          

RE: .64 (Jamie)

    I don't think so, Jamie.  Perhaps I simply confused *you* by presenting
    facts which contracted your assumptions?

    In support of your position, you presented some speculation.  I pointed
    out that the speculation, presented with great confidence as if it were
    virtually certain to be true, bore no relationship to the facts of the
    matter.

    I quite agree that the insupportability of your speculation does not
    mean that your basic point is not correct. But that does not mean that
    I have "confused the situation" by pointing out that what you said was
    nonesense.

				    Topher

                          
    Re.64
    
    Jamie,
    
    You'll certainly go to great lengths to avoid writing letters.  (;^)
    
    Good work on Harry's part.  I look forward to reading the article if 
    you can obtain a copy.
    
    Cindy

    Well Cindy I go to great lengths to find the truth. Writing letters to
    people who seem to be already biased in their opinions is seldom
    directly productive when searching out what really happens.

    Harry's search, which went back to 1960, discovered 5 publications by
    Shannahoff-Khalsa, all of which are confined to the single subject of
    nasal cycles and the cross-lateral brain activity. A further search on
    alternate nostril breathing produced only one other article by
    another author, and it was not concerned with the brain but reinflation
    of the lungs so I think that it is irrelevant to our study.

    The paper quoted in .18 concerned 5 subjects and the results were a
    uniform 100%. Boiled down to the results (I only have the abstracts at
    present) it says that if you breath through one nostril the EEG
    amplitude in the contralateral hemisphere of the brain increases. This
    is not attributed to the activity on the olfactory nerve, so the sense
    of smell is not involved, just the normal sensory nerves around the
    nose are involved. 

    In this paper no claims are made about the various attributes of each
    hemisphere, nor is there any mention of yoga in this abstract. It
    however notes the author's affiliation with the University of
    California's School of Medicine in San Diego.

    The other 4 papers make no mention of the author's affiliation with any
    university, but are more daring in their claims. BTW there are some
    discrepancies in the claims made in the articles, for example the
    period over which the the cycle occurs is given as 25 to greater than
    200 minutes in a 1983 paper while in a 1986 these figures are stated to
    be 2 to 3 hours.

    These papers seem to vary from the more normal scientific studies in
    the following ways. There are no references made to the work of others
    in the same field, the numbers of patients studied is surprisingly
    small, the range is 5 to 7, and there is no variation between subjects
    they always give 100% identical results. What is also missing is
    independent repeats of the experiments by other groups of researchers.

    Out of curiosity Harry let the other doctors in his practice read the
    papers and offer their comments. He did not make any attempt to bias
    them, he just asked them to read and comment. These comments ranged
    from, "Not very scientific." to "Someone is obviously trying to prove
    some scientific basis for yoga, but has failed". This latter comment
    came from an Indonesian doctor who has a lot of "non western" beliefs.

    So a double blind study of the type that I suggested has not been
    attempted. This I also find unusual, as it would be a simple thing to
    organise and it would provide hard evidence of what really happens.
    Mind you the last thing that the Kripula Center would want would be to
    do this experiment and have it prove that there was nothing in it.

    Could this be the reason that such research has not been carried out?

    If I get photocopies of the full articles and they provide any more
    detail I shall of course report it here.

    Jamie.

                                                                
 Re.67
    
    Jamie,
    
>    Mind you the last thing that the Kripula Center would want would be to
>    do this experiment and have it prove that there was nothing in it.

    Quite the contrary.  Gurudev (Yogi Amrit Desai) has been participating
    related Western medical experiments since the 1960's, demonstrating the
    mind/body connection.  I will publish here these references from his 
    autobiography.  Based on this, your assumption is incorrect.
    
    Cindy

    Re.68
    
    Cliff,
    
    >Cindy has said she's experienced results.  Is that not something?

    I can answer that for Jamie.  "No."  (;^)
    
    Cindy

You know, reading these replies finally made me write. I have been watching 
this same old sh** go on day after day in this conference. When are people 
going to try to stop convincing Jamie? It's a waste of time. He will never, 
ever change his viewpoints. 
	Meanwhile, I for one, would like to see this conference devoted to 
discussing physic stuff, interesting things. I am not interested in seeing an 
argument between Jamie and others every single day!!

  
  Re .71
  
  > -< Is this the Jamie vs. the world conference? >-
  
  No, it's the DEJAVU conference which has simply had a lot of "US vs THEM"
  type of arguments recently.  Whilst the presence of such Devil's Advocates
  as Jamie, Laurie, et al., performs a very useful purpose for most of the
  time, I'll agree that there have been too many notes lost in binary
  issues and not enough allowed to live in shades of grey.  On the occasions
  when the opposite sides of an argument have been fairly well covered and
  should be allowed to rest in [uneasy] balance, the recent notes have gone
  a stage or two too far - eg., the traditional parting comment of "but I
  don't suppose _you_ will ever understand" [ from both sides ].
  
  I'd like a return to a more tolerant conference where a variety of ideas
  and viewpoints *can* be expressed and discussed but without so much 
  "instant angst" between participants.  Questioning an opinion or belief
  is not only acceptable and desirable but necessary.  Defending the same
  is understandable and provides details which might not have been given
  originally but which might be vital to comprehension of the underlying
  subject.  Maybe a little more "agreeing to disagree" is in order - but
  without any snide comments whilst doing so ?
  
  Frank

RE: .72

>  Whilst the presence of such Devil's Advocates as Jamie, Laurie, et al.,

    Interesting choice of terms.  The Devil's Advocate is the "slang"
    term given to the Church official during canonization proceedings
    to argue against the elevation -- including to argue against the
    "miraculous" nature of the supposed miracles.

				Topher

    Re .68

    >Was the initial purpose to "prove some scientific basis for yoga"? 
    >That's not the impression I get from reading these notes.

    You misinterpret what I wrote. The papers published seem to be an
    attempt to prove some scientific basis for yoga, not this note string.

    >Cindy has said she's experienced results.  Is that not something?
 
    Yes it is something, but what? It could be real or it could be totally
    in Cindy's imagination. How do we know which is correct? A proper
    scientific test could cancel out any possibility of suggestion and give
    definitive results.

    Re .69

    Strange is it not that the very simple tests of the type that I suggest
    are scrupulously avoided. If they were used it would prove beyond any
    shadow of a doubt that the effect worked or did not work. However all
    the experiments that I have before me are not of this nature and come
    to very hazy conclusions.

    One other point was made to me by someone outside this conference. It
    would appear that if you are temporarily working for a university you
    can then publish papers and state that you are affiliated to this
    university. Later others may then quote "Scientific studies done at the
    university of X showed that etc etc." This then gives an air of
    authenticity to the claim which it does not deserve. Apparently the
    "Creationist" are great users of this system. I think that the same
    wheeze was being pulled in the reference in .18.

    Re .71

    >You know, reading these replies finally made me write.

    It would seem that your only contributions to this conference are
    complaints. Why not join in and be constructive.

    Re .73

    >Interesting choice of terms.  The Devil's Advocate is the "slang"
    
    I don't know about America, but in the UK the term is regularly used
    for someone who is arguing against the popular opinion. Although we
    know its origin it is seldom now used in its original sense.

    Jamie.

  > It would seem that your only contributions to this conference are
  >  complaints. Why not join in and be constructive.

Because joining in to your contests is not constructive to me. I want to read 
and discuss physic phenomena, not argue with you. It's a waste of my time. 

Sam

    On the right hand side of your keyboard you will find a numeric key
    pad.

    Pressing the key marked 3 will move you over any reply that you find
    annoying to you. The comma key on the same pad will jump you to the
    next topic. I suggest that you employ them.
   
    Jamie.

Unfornately, I have to employ them all over this conference because instead 
of discussing the things that this conference is supposed to be doing, I only 
get you arguing with people, disbelieving everything. So by the time I employ 
your methods to skip over notes, there is nothing left to read.

Sam

    Re .77

    How sad I'm sure that all the other active participants of this
    conference will join me in working harder to make your reading more
    interesting.

    BTW I often have a problem with people in here disbelieving what I say,
    so it is a two way street.

    Jamie.

    re: .77 (Sam)
    
         I think you nailed it...his job, as he sees it, is to
    be precisely the "devil's advocate."  His job, to continue, is 
    to get people to give up hope, magic, joy and fun and instead
    to replace them with "science," logic, patterns and eventually
    perfection--totally stagnated and depressing reality.  By the
    way, he doesn't really know he's doing this, but this is the 
    game plan.  If he succeeds in taking our attention off things
    we'd seemingly (consciously) rather discuss, he wins!!
    (On the other hand, Sam, sub-consciously we must want to play
    his game, or else we wouldn't, would we?)
    
    Frederick
    

Re: last

Exactly! You said it. I find this same attitude in my (former) Christian 
religions. You can't think differently. You  can't explore options. There is 
only one way and that is our way and everything HAS to be proven 
scientifically. That's fine for them but I thought I could come here to 
escape that. There are too many places for that allready.
	But as you said, people still continue to play right into his game.

Sam

   Wait a minute.  I don't see any need to make Jamie the bad guy here.  He
   has as much right to note in here as anybody.  If you want to read about
   something else, write about something else.  

   I don't believe Jamie is playing a game anymore than anyone else.  The
   fact that he notes here means that it must have some meaning for him. 
   The fact that people choose to respond indicates that the discussion is
   meaningful to them.  I don't believe either side needs to outprove the
   other or prove the other wrong, for that matter.

   Your power is your own, you don't need Jamie or anyone else to "take" it
   away from you.  It's already yours and has always been yours.


   							Terza

    Frederick,
    
    I pity you enormously if you think that "hope, magic, joy and fun"
    cannot be found in the realm of science.  In fact, that opinion
    of yours runs contrary to my experience of the world.  You should
    think more positively.
    
    		*		*		*		*
    
    By the way.  Since psychic phenomena are at best rare and ephemeral
    (If they were common or sturdy, they would have been thoroughly
    investigated by now, and we wouldn't have to speculate about them
    at all.), Jamie is on the correct side of the odds when he claims
    that any given `event' has an ordinary -- or even a mundane --
    explanation.
    
    Am I saying Jamie is right 100% of the time?  No.  Am I saying Jamie
    is wrong 100% of the time?  No.  I am saying his chances of being
    right are much higher than his chances of being wrong, though.
    
    							Ann B.

    re: .81 (Terza)
    
         Yes, you are correct.  It's clearly a choice.  Those who
    banter back and forth obviously get something out of it or 
    they wouldn't do it.
    
    re: .82 (Ann)
    
         I don't deny pleasures in science, but it must be done in 
    a "pleasurable way."  Having a science background myself, I can
    remember things that were fun...but the fun escaped me when the
    flaws in the beliefs behind it became apparent.  In any case, you,
    too, are correct.  I guess I only object to the tedium, the constant
    back and forth, the intractable attitudes that won't change...then
    the game seems a little silly.
    
    Frederick
    

                                 
    I'm with Terza - wait a minute...
    
    Jamie brings up a lot of good points (but don't let this go to your
    head or anything, Jamie...).  And, though it may not seem it at times, 
    I like him a lot too.  (;^)
    
    [Btw, Jamie - weren't you being just a *tad* patronizing toward Sam a
    few notes back?]
    
    Sam - no worries.  It isn't Jamie's game, even though it may seem it
    from your perspective.  ];^]  
    
    Cindy

                              
    Back to Kripalu Center and Gurudev...
    
    From his biography, it states:
    
      1970 - Participates in controlled laboratory experiments
             at Jefferson Memorial Hospital: Underwent tests to
             demonstrate that a human can control and modify
             organic functions of the involuntary nervous system.
    
    To take a guess, given his location/residence during this time,
    the hospital mentioned is in or near Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
    NOTE - not trying to prove anything scientific, and only wish to
    point out that Gurudev is in fact open to such things.
    
    Also in the book, former astronaut, MIT physicist, and founder of
    the Institute of Noetic Sciences, Ed Mitchell writes this about
    Gurudev:
    
      "Almost 10 years ago, following my Apollo 14 flight to the
       moon, I was privileged to meet Yogi Amrit Desai.  At the 
       meeting, we discovered our shared interest in a deeper
       perspective of life, health and spirituality.  Yogi Desai
       was immensely helpful to me through his great understanding
       of the relationship between health and spiritual discipline.
       This shared interest has continued over the years, and I 
       have been delighted to visit and benefit from the fruit of
       his effort at the Kripalu Center for Holistic Health.  The
       warm, caring and thoroughly professional individuals on the
       staff have been a delight for me to experience.  My own sense
       of well-being and health was geatly enhanced by my stay at
       the Center.
    
    For additional information on the Institute for Noetic Sciences, search
    on 'noetic' in this conference - there are two notes on it.  Or, for
    information, contact me either here or offline, since I've become a
    member.  Like Kripalu Center, the Institute for Noetic Sciences is also
    a non-profit organization.
    
    Cindy

RE: .74 (Jamie)

>    >Interesting choice of terms.  The Devil's Advocate is the "slang"
>    
>    I don't know about America, but in the UK the term is regularly used
>    for someone who is arguing against the popular opinion. Although we
>    know its origin it is seldom now used in its original sense.

    In this country, the term usually refers to someone who is arguing
    a position (popular or not) (s)he does not necessarily support for
    reasons of fairness or as a method of exploring a topic.  "Playing
    Devil's Advocate for the moment, it is claimed that ..."  The origin
    is not generally known.

				    Topher

RE: .77 (Sam)

>of discussing the things that this conference is supposed to be doing, I only 
>get you arguing with people, disbelieving everything. So by the time I
>employ

    This may not be what *you* want the conference to be doing, but I do
    not see any reason to believe that it is not among the things that the
    conference is "supposed" to be doing.  We are discussing the phenomenon
    that this conference was set up to discuss.

				    Topher

    OK I'll make my position slightly clearer.

    Not that long ago science and medicine was rife with charlatans and con
    men. Panaceas were sold, money was solicited to perfect perpetual
    motion machines so they could tap the excess energy. All sorts of scams
    were backed up by "scientific evidence".

    Eventually those who were seriously trying to advance science realised
    that they would make little headway in the credibility stakes unless
    they cleaned up their act.

    So a unified set of standards for experimentation was devised. In its
    simplest form it goes like this, you carefully conduct an experiment
    and reach a conclusion. A completely different group repeats your
    experiments and confirms your findings. Then and only then is your idea
    given some credence.

    It was also noticed that researchers tended to let their opinions of
    what should happen influence their observation and so the double blind
    experiment was used. Here neither the person who is conducting the
    experiment or the person on whom the experiment is being conducted
    knows if a real substance is being used or a fake one.

    Using these standards most of the con artists etc have been moved to
    the sidelines and science now has some credibility.

    Now in the wide range of phenomena that is covered by this conference I
    think that most would agree there are still plenty of people who are
    only in it for a fast buck. They remove any possibility of real
    credibility while they continue to operate. As a rigorous system of
    testing would leave them severely out of pocket they resist it with all
    their might. But until such a system is introduced these parasites will
    continue to make a killing at the expense of anything that is genuine.

    On other matters. Yes Cindy I was perhaps a tad patronising to Sam.
    Read only noters who complain that they don't like the notes that are
    written, and want the style or content changed do tend to get right up
    my left nostril. I am of the opinion that if you are not playing in the
    game then you should not be allowed to make the rules. If Sam doesn't
    like the notes we write then he should write his own.

    Frederick, I get a lot of happiness, fun and amusement out of science.
    It also keeps me alive.

    Jamie.
                        

    Just to interject here, I know Jamie pretty well, and it's fair to say
    that he doesn't "play games". It's also fair to say that he researches
    his material very thoroughly. You should know by now that he has a
    suggestibility quotient of zero, so if he's entered it here, you can
    believe the evidence is strong, and in his cynical view,
    incontrovertible.
    
    Many of the things that Jamie "argues" about, are the beliefs and
    faiths of people who accepted as fact, for whatever reason, that which
    has been presented to them. We all have different reasons for believing
    or not believing what we are told, we all have different motives for
    supporting those beliefs, thereafter.
    
    Just because Jamie has scientific evidence that contradicts one of your
    beliefs or faiths, doesn't mean that his motives are questionable, or
    that you have to stop believing in said belief or faith. It simply
    means that Jamie has demonstrated that there is little scientific basis
    for it, and that Jamie will never in a million years accept it as
    truth.
    
    Jamie, and others like him, me included, bring balance to some of the
    more extreme beliefs and faiths. Those of you who are unable to
    accept that a contrary view can exist are displaying insecurity of a
    worrying degree. Those of you who dislike the fact that there are
    others who do not believe as you do, that there are others who have
    scientific evidence that shows that that particular belief or faith is
    shaky, should not be noting in a public forum, where by its nature,
    criticism is invited.
    
    Please, just because he and others do not believe as you do, does not
    mean they should be silenced. Remember, a contrary voice will either
    strengthen your faith, or cause you to critically review it. Either
    way, how can you be the loser?
    
    Lastly, please remember that for every write-noter there are dozens of
    read-only noters, with views ranging from Jamie's to the child-like.
    All write-noters, *of whatever position in the spectrum*, invite
    criticism and ridicule for daring to air their views in public. For
    that, they have the "right" to continue to air their views in a public
    conference. Read-only noters, giving nothing to the discussion, have no
    right to come in here and whinge simply because they don't like what
    they read. When they can summon up the courage to put their views up
    for public dissection, then they have the right to ask for others'
    views to be silenced, and not before.
    
    Laurie.

    re: .88, .89 (Jamie, Laurie)
    
          Good points.
    
          Yes, science has it's value, of course it does.  I tend to 
    march against it to balance against those who use it as a demigod,
    that's all.  Eventually, in my mind, it's all illusionary and
    subject to beliefs, but while we're in the illusion and our beliefs
    are limited, then it "works."
    
    Frederick
    

"from Jamie to the child-like"??

well, guess if we don't believe like Jamie then we are "child-like"?

mary

    RE: -1
    
    It's a range my dear, you choose where you fit in it.
    
    Laurie.

I have thought a long time about replying and am finally writing something - 
it will probably get shot down so why bother? - but I think I need to clarify 
what I was trying to say. I didn't mean to say that Jamie couldn't note here 
or couldn't have his opinions. It was the kind of interchange that bothered 
me, similar to what was expressed in Note 1544. It's more to do with the 
constant fighting and insulting each other. I guess I didn't express myself 
too well.

Sam

    Why do you feel that you will get shot down?  Your note clarifies
    and explains what you were trying to say, and I think you will find
    general agreement, now that we understand.  There *has* been too much
    intentional and unintentional insults lately.  People *have* been
    being insufficiently sensitive to other people's feelings.  Just needed
    to understand that it wasn't -- as you seemed to be saying before --
    disagreement per se that you were opposed to.

				    Topher

Thanks for your note. I hope my note clarifies things. I am not opposed to 
disagreement. Everyone has their own path. I am only opposed to the insults 
going back and forth. I am working really hard on myself to accept other 
people positions. Bear with me.

Sam

    
    Re.89
    
    Laurie,
    
    >from Jamie's to the child-like
    
    But when two things are equal, you're not specifying a spectrum!  (;^)
    
    Seriously though, I feel that to maintain a curious child-like attitude
    in this world is a laudable thing.  Perhaps 'childish' is a more
    appropriate word in this case.  
    
    Cindy
    
    PS. Jamie, I may yet enter my shakti-kundalini awakening story that
        happened to me about 4.5 years ago...  It's directly related to
        yoga, etc.

    Re .96

    A couple of minor points.

    > o He climbed inside a sealed box and stayed for x amount of time,
    > past when all the oxygen should have been used up in there, and easily
    > survived.

    Interesting. He should have died when the partial pressure of the
    carbon dioxide reached 18%, he would no longer have been able to remove
    the carbon dioxide from his blood. Question, did anyone analyze the
    atmosphere that he was in?

    > o He essentially stopped his heart from beating, or so it appeard to the
    > doctors who were monitoring him.  What he actually did was increase his
    > heart beat to the extent that the valves were opening & closing so rapidly
    >that it appeared to be stopped -- no pulse.

     Well let me see, I have run a tachycardia where my heart rate actually
    went up to 400 beats per minute. This was still easily monitored. I
    reached this state because I was it atrial fibrillation when the
    tachycardia came on. Normally by suppressing the signal on the vegal
    nerve you can increase your heart rate to about 120. This is my normal
    rest rate having a severed vegal nerve.

    I doubt that he could increase his heart rate much above 500 and I do
    not think that this would fail to register on an electronic monitor.

    How was his pulse monitored? 

    Jamie.                         

    I was just pointing out that it was impossible to use up all the oxygen
    in an enclosed space by breathing, plus the other one point that using
    your involuntary nervous system alone you cannot get your heart rate
    much above 120.

    Can you remember if the doctors just felt for a pulse, listened to the
    heart with a stethoscope or had him coupled up to a monitor.

    Jamie.

                   Beyond Recovery To Self-Discovery

                Seminar with Yogi Amrit Desai (Gurudev)

                          June 19-21, 1992
 
                  Brandeis University, Waltham, Mass.


Friday night lecture from 7-9:30pm only:  $15.00

Entire weekend:  $180.00 ($200 after June 1), plus optional 
                 accommodations at $50.00 for both nights, if
                 needed.  Vegetarian meals are included.

Kripalu is a non-profit, non-sectarian organization.

Additional information on the seminar topic, directions to Brandeis, 
more information on Kripalu and Gurudev, and details about the seminar
itself appear in the remainder of this message.



About the seminar topic, "Beyond Recovery to Self-Discovery":

     - Learn how painful transition periods and times of crisis can
       become openings for personal transformation.
 
     - Understand how dis-eased bodies may be reflecting unresolved
       tensions and fears that need your attention.

     - Discover the keys to healing relationships that have become
       sources of conflict and pain.

     - Learn to love and accept yourself...as well as others.

     - Take the first steps toward a truly empowered life that breaks
       free from the limits of self-image.



Seminar Information:

Times: Registration is from 5-6:45 pm on Friday for both the lecture 
       and the seminar.  The weekend seminar will begin with the Friday
       evening lecture from 7-9:30pm.  Saturday and Sunday mornings begin
       with early morning yoga at 6am.  Saturday evening session ends at
       9pm.  Sunday session ends at 1:30pm, followed by lunch.

Rates:  Seminar rates for the entire weekend including the Friday 
        evening lecture - $180.00 if registration is received by June 1st, 
        $200.00 after June 1st.  A $50.00 non-transferable deposit is 
        required to assure your place.  Friday evening lecture is only 
        $15.00.  Pre-registration is recommended.  To facilitate your 
        registration process, we request that payment in full be made by 
        June 12th.  Seminar reservations must be received by June 12th.  
        After that, please pay at the door, pending availability,.  Please 
        call to find out if there is still space.  There is no child care 
        available.  Meals are included.

Discounts:  Senior Citizens and full-time students with I.D. receive 10% 
            off the entire seminar; 20% off Friday evening session only.  
            There are no discounts on housing fees.

Accommodations:  Brandeis dormitory rooms are available.  Please reserve 
                 rooms by June 1.  $50.00 for both Friday and Saturday 
                 nights, double occupancy.  If you want to reserve with a 
                 specific roommate, both reservations must be mailed in 
                 together with full payment for each.  Pillows and blankets 
                 are provided.  You need to bring linens and towels.

Meals:  Breakfast, lunch, and dinner on Saturday, breakfast and lunch on 
        Sunday are included in the seminar price.  All meals are vegetarian.  
        Wheat-free and non-dairy selections are available.

You Will Need:  Comfortable clothes, a blanket or mat for yoga.  You may 
                also want to bring a cushion to sit on, and a notebook or 
                journal, pens.

Location of Seminar:  Brandeis University is in Waltham, MA, near Boston.  
                      Friday evening lecture will be at the Levin Ballroom 
                      at Brandeis.  Saturday and Sunday programs will be at 
                      Sherman Hall.  Function halls are air-conditioned.  
                      There is ample free parking.  Public transportation 
                      is available.

For Information, call:  Steffi Shapiro (Nisha) at (617) 923-1440 or
                        Cindy (Unnati) at (617) 926-8488

Payment:  Please make check or money-order payable to: Satsanga Yoga Center.

Mail to:  Satsanga Yoga Center
          c/o The Well Street Station,
          62 Mt. Auburn St.
          Watertown, MA  02172

Sponsored by:  Boston Kripalu Support Group



Directions:

From Rte. 128 (I-95) Southbound
-------------------------------
Take Rte. 30 exit, go straight across Rte.30 at traffic lights at
top of ramp, street becomes South Street at Weston-Waltham line;
proceed across railroad tracks, Brandeis in on the left.

From Rte. 128 (I-95) Northbound
-------------------------------
Take Rte. 30 exit; turn left at top of ramp onto Rte.30; turn right
at traffic lights; proceed across railroad tracks; Brandeis in on 
the left.

From Mass Turnpike (I-90) Eastbound
-----------------------------------
Take Rte. 128/Rte. 30 exit; after tollgate, follow signs to Rte. 30;
at top of ramp, turn left on Rte. 30, right at lights.

From Mass Turnpike (I-90) Westbound
-----------------------------------
Take Rte. 30/Weston exit at 128 interchange; after tollgate, proceed
straight; right at top of ramp and right at traffic lights; left at 
next set of lights.

Public Transportation
---------------------
Commuter train service is available from North Station in Boston and
Porter Square in Cambridge to the Brandeis/Robert Station which
borders the campus.


About Gurudev:

Gurudev is an internationally recognized authority on yoga and
self-transformation, honored by prestigious spiritual organizations
in India, the birthplace of yoga, with titles such as Doctor of
Yoga and Jagadacharya (World Teacher).  At the same time, Gurudev
has lived in the West for 30 years.

He was educated in the U.S., and raised his family here.  In Lenox,
MA, he founded the Kripalu Center, America's largest residential
holistic health center for yoga and health.  Gurudev knows not only
the ancient yogic sciences, but our modern-day temperament and
problems as well.  In fact, it's uncanny how well he understands 
the innermost concerns of our lives.



Kripalu Yoga Is A Way Of Transforming Your Life

"Yoga is not just standing on your head, it is learning to stand
on your own two feet."

"Kripalu Yoga is both a way of identifying the obstructions that
you create in your life, and a method for removing them.  It is 
a way of becoming conscious.  And when you become conscious, you
can let go of everything that is undesirable in your life."

Kripalu Yoga is the yoga of consciousness and self-discovery. It
is a unique and practical approach to life which evolved out of
Gurudev's own life-transforming spiritual experiences.  

Kripalu Yoga combines hatha yoga postures, yogic breathing
techniques, and meditation in such a way that those who practice can
actually experience life force energy (prana) as the innate source
of wisdom within their own bodies.  With that awareness, it is then 
possible to go beyond the limits of the conditioned mind in all 
areas of life.

Gurudev teaches that there exists within everyone more beauty and 
possibility than they have ever imagined.  Kripalu Yoga practices 
are a system for turning possibility into reality - a way of 
awakening to a state of consciousness in which you can meet every 
experience of life with unbounded openness.



Your Seminar With Gurudev Will Include:

- Gurudev's teachings from the heart on mastering the art of living

- Direct transformational experiences which allow you to permanently
  change your life

- Opportunities to ask questions and receive guidance from both 
  Gurudev and senior Kripalu Center staff members on issues ranging
  from healing relationships to creating greater physical health
  and well-being

- Guided meditation, relaxation, and chanting designed to help 
  unblock energy

- Kripalu Yoga sessions and experiential personal growth workshops
  with senior Kripalu Center staff members

- An introduction to Kripalu Center - a place to further nurture 
  your spiritual growth

- Guidance in maintaining the Kripalu experience at home



About Kripalu Center:

The Center is located in Lenox, Massachusetts, and is both an
intentional spiritual community and a world-renowned holistic
educational facility founded by Yogi Amrit Desai (Gurudev).  
Situation in the beautiful Berkshire Mountains of western 
Massachusetts, Kripalu Center is available year-round to 
support you in an ongoing process of self-transformation. 

The nearly 300 resident staff members have adopted a balanced
yogic lifestyle to support their decision to growth through
service.  As a result, Kripalu is able to offer not only a wide 
array of programs and professional trainings to inspire the
thousands who visit each year, but an environment that emanates
a sense of peace and harmony as well.

For more information, call 413-637-3280 or write Kripalu Center,
Box 793, Lenox, MA 01240.  Our FAX number is 413-637-3101.



The Opportunity of a Lifetime, In The Presense of a Master

It is a rare and special privilege to learn directly from an 
awakened spiritual master such as Yogi Amrit Desai.  Yogi Desai, 
known to thousands as Gurudev (beloved teacher), is more than just a 
wise philosopher or dynamic speaker.  He is one who has actually 
experienced first-hand, levels of consciousness and freedom that 
most of us can scarcely imagine. 

Although he functions quite successfully in the everyday world as a 
teacher, author, and father of three, Gurudev moves from a source 
that sets him apart from its struggle and frustration.  He has 
mastered the art of living and has dedicated himself to awakening 
others to the limitless possibilities that exist for their lives as 
well.

We invite you to experience Gurudev for yourself.  It makes no 
difference what your background, we think you'll find that the truth 
does, in fact, set you free.  Bring only an open heart and a 
willingness for something extraordinary to occur.

Entering into the presense of a true spiritual master is much the 
same as bringing a musical instrument into contact with a tuning 
fork.  Both begin vibrating at the same frequency.  In Gurudev's 
presence you can begin to share, quite effortlessly, in his pure 
state of consciousness.  It is a remarkable experience.

It's not just what Gurudev says that makes such a difference in 
people's lives.  The depths of love and wisdom from which he speaks 
have an even more profound impact than his words.  Because he speaks 
from the very source of his being, he touches that same source 
within all who listen.  A true awakening can begin for you - not an 
awakening to something outside yourself, but an opening to something 
that is your own true nature.

    
    Usual disclaimers apply...
                                   
    There is a weekend seminar being held in Springfield, Mass., September
    18-20, called "Work and the Human Spirit".  The cost is $495.00,
    discounted tuition for spouse or partner is $295.00.
    
    The two people leading the seminar are consultant John Scherer, and
    Yogi Amrit Desai.  (From the brochure) - They've been personal friends 
    and colleagues for many years, and have designed a new leadership
    development approach blending the spiritual traditions of the East and
    the West with high-performance management techniques.
    
    This is an experiential program and will include yoga and centering
    sessions.  
    
    The program content is:  
    
    - The inner and outer game.
    - What it takes to be a leader.
    - The fundamental principles of human behavior.
    - Why "success" rarely satisfies.
    - How to win without fighting.
    - Getting beyond CYA.
    - Living and working from your center.
    - Can people really change?
    - Before you write off a relationship...
    - Emotions as problems and potential assets.
    - Linking love and the bottom line.
    - How to work wiser with the human factor.
    - Management development as spiritual development.
    - Changing the game by changing the Question.
    - Characteristics of the enlightened executive.
    - Breakthrough thinking: getting "outside the box."
    - Facing the tiger.
    
    For more information, call John Scherer and Associates at (509)
    838-8167.
    
    Cindy

    Did anybody go to Gurudev's 60th birthday celebration last weekend?  My
    mother went, and she said it was great.  They were planning on making a
    videotape of it.

                                   
    I did.  It was fantastic.  Truly an historical event.
    
    It was a 9-day celebration altogether, and I was there for the entire
    time.  There are both videotapes and audiotapes available from just
    about all the presentations, performances, darshans, and ceremonies,
    which you can order through Kripalu Center.
    
    Probably the best presentation was by Deepak Chopra on Tuesday morning,
    of the nature of consciousness and how everything is linked together.
    Truly amazing.
    
    It's difficult to even choose the highlights to talk about, as so many 
    things happened throughout the week.
    
    One key present to Gurudev was the launching of the Kripalu
    International Network (or "KIN"...(;^).  There is now an organization
    in place at the Center dedicated to keeping all those who join the
    Network updated through a monthly newsletter, 4 tapes per year by
    Gurudev on latest teachings, discounts on various programs at the
    Center, and several other benefits.  The cost is $75.00 per year.  If
    anyone is interested in joining, contact the center directly.
    
    There is also a commemorative book on Gurudev's life, entitled "In The
    Presence Of A Master" which is superb.  The hardcover edition is
    limited, and is absolutely beautiful, so if you're interested in buying 
    a copy, do contact the center asap.  They only printed 750 copies.  They 
    cost $45.00 apiece, and the proceeds go toward the India project.  
    Otherwise there is a paperback copy as well, at $24.00, which will be a 
    permanent offering at the shop.
    
    Cindy

    
    The theme for the celebration, and ongoing for the Center, is:
    
                    Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam
    
    which means, "The Whole World Is One Family", in Sanskrit.
    
    Cindy

    	My mother bought me that book, "In the Presence of a Master", on Friday
    for my birthday.  It is an excellent book!  Really nice.  I have grown
    up with Kripalu through my family.  I am originally from Watertown, NY,
    and we would go to the Kripalu ashram in Adams Center, NY all of the
    time.  As a child, I didn't fully understand what it was about, but now
    I am understanding it and learning more about it all of the time. I
    moved to Mass about 3 or 4 months ago (just graduated from college), so
    it's convenient meeting my mom there on weekends.
    
    danielle

    
    Last night I heard that Gurudev has resigned as spiritual directory of
    Kripalu.  I have some details, but not enough to enter online at this
    time.
    
    If you would like more information, contact me directly.
    
    Cindy

    Dear KIN brothers and sisters-
    
    I have been asked by Sudhir to send you the following documents regarding
    the resignation of Gurudev as Spiritual Director of Kripalu Yoga Fellowship.
    I feel deeply sad that I have to use our e-mail network to send you this
    kind of information.
    
    If you want to know more about what's going on at Kripalu, you can call
    the toll-free number listed below or send e-mail to Sudhir 
    ([email protected]).  More information may also be forthcoming by e-mail.
    
    Those of you who are support group leaders may want to think about ways
    to bring your communities together to deal with all the feelings that this
    news will bring up for people.  If any of you want to share ideas and
    experiences with this, please write me and I will distribute your messages.
    
    Jai bhagwan,  Dharmadas
    THE FOLLOWING IS 1) A COVER LETTER FROM SUDHIR-JONATHAN FOUST, INTERIM
    DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC RELATIONS AT KRIPALU CENTER FOR YOGA AND HEALTH, 2) A
    STATEMENT FROM YOGI AMRIT DESAI, AND 3) A LETTER STATING THE FACTS AS WE
    KNOW THEM.  PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CALL FOR MORE INFORMATION.  OUR 800-NUMBER
    WILL BE UP BY TUESDAY AM.      LOVE,  SUDHIR
    .........................................................................
    
    October 31, 1994
    
    
    Dear Friend,      
    
    I write this letter to you with a mixture of sadness, regret and finally,
    awe at the capacity of the human spirit to heal. Yogi Amrit Desai has
    agreed to resign as the Spiritual Director for Kripalu Yoga Fellowship.  
    
    This process has not been easy.  It has been a time of deep emotions and
    inquiry.  Yet in my heart I feel we are all stronger for it.
    
    As you can imagine, we expect the media may be interested in this story.  
    We stand firm in our determination to be in integrity with everyone and
    plan on working closely with interested media.
    
    We have taken the following steps to ensure everyone has access to
    information so the healing can begin:
    
    * We have created three teams to manage this situation.  Priyanath is
    heading the Operations Team to free Shankar (our current Chief Operating
    Officer) to focus on coordinating the transition.  Shivanand is heading
    up a Healing Team to help create integration in the entire Kripalu
    community.  I am heading the Public Relations Team.
    
    * We have established an 800 number (1-800-KIN-1556).  Please call if you
    feel you need information, or if you feel anyone you know needs information.
    The phones will be staffed from 8:00 a.m. - 4:00 p.m. (E.S.T) , Mondays
    through Fridays; 10:00 a.m. - 4:00 p.m. on Saturdays.  Please call
    1-800-967-3577 if you cannot get through on the other line.
    
    * We are sending this information to you and other people close to Kripalu
    and our work.  We will send you more information as it becomes
    available.
    
    * We are being proactive with the press.  On Monday we sent out a press
    release with all the information we have.  Interested reporters may contact
    Kripalu for interviews.  In the event that they do, we would want them to
    see how we, as a community, are handling this difficult time in our history.
    
    * A group of skilled therapists who have worked with us before, are helping
    us create an environment of healing and integration.
    
    * We are creating special programs for disciples to come and be with us.
    
    I imagine you may feel many emotions -- from shock, anger, betrayal, 
    sadness, or maybe even indifference.  Believe me, both the community and
    Gurudev are feeling the pain of this situation deeply.  And, through
    mutual support and consciousness, we are healing.
    
    Speaking for myself, it has been important to distinguish between my
    feelings and the facts.  Though his actions have been out of integrity,
    Yogi Desai has come forth with the truth.  He has claimed his intention to
    stay in relationship with the community.  He is seeking his own healing.  
    He participated fully in this decision with the Board of Directors.
    
    Feel free to call our 800-number.  If you hear a rumor, please call to
    find out the facts. 
    
    In this kind of situation, Gurudev has had the courage to reveal the
    truth and we hope this will enable us to grow stronger, more secure in our
    vision and mission, more bonded in our shared world work.  I trust we fall
    into the latter category.
    
    Thank you for your kindness, for your support of Kripalu, especially in
    these times as we move through this time of transformation.
    
    In love and service,
    
    
    Sudhir
    Jonathan Foust
    Interim Public Relations Director
    ======================================================================
    
    KRIPALU YOGA FELLOWSHIP 
    RE: YOGI AMRIT DESAI RESIGNATION
    
    
    On October 29, 1994, Gurudev and the Board reached a mutual decision that
    Gurudev would resign his salaried position as Spiritual Director.   It 
    was mutually agreed this action is  for the continued well-being of the
    Kripalu Yoga Fellowship.    
    
    Three women have come forward and said that Gurudev had inappropriate
    sexual contact with them.  He has acknowledged this is true.  He expresses
    his deep regret and has asked for their forgiveness and the forgiveness
    of the entire Kripalu family.
    
    The decision was also based on: 1) Gurudev's years of silence and
    denial; 2) the suffering of the women involved; 3) the impact on the 
    families and children of the women involved; and 4) undue accusations made 
    against one of the women who had the courage to speak.
    
    Kripalu has no intention of repudiating Gurudev as a teacher and he will
    always be our founder. Your personal relationship with Gurudev will be
    based on your personal choice.  The mutual agreement only involves his
    resignation from his formal role as Spiritual Director.  Gurudev has come 
    to this agreement in alignment with the Board of Directors.
    
    The Kripalu Yoga Fellowship will continue to be guided by the principles of
    love, service and surrender.  Now, more than ever, our integrity as an
    organization is precious to us.  This is why we are doing everything we
    can to communicate all the details.  We are proud of our integrity and hope
    to be a model of community healing. Please feel free to contact us if you
    would like more information.  We appreciate your continued support as we do
    this necessary and difficult work.
    
    1-800-546-1556 
    8:00 am- 4:00 Monday-Friday; 10:00am-4:00 Saturday
    ............................................................................
    
    A LETTER FROM GURUDEV:
    
    As Bapuji's disciple, I've decided to voluntarily resign my current 
    position as Spiritual Director so that the Kripalu Yoga Fellowship can 
    continue its work in the world.   More than anything,  I want Kripalu to 
    remain a spiritual home for many.  I want you to know that we came to
    this decision together.
    
    I deeply regret any suffering I have caused to the people directly involved
    and to the entire Kripalu family.  
    
    This has been a time of deep self-reflection.  It is the integrity of our
    community and our commitment to truth that has allowed the process of
    healing to begin. I am deeply grateful to the Board and the Kripalu
    community for sustaining an environment of trust, compassion and honesty. 
    
    I will be taking some time for self-reflection and sadhana.  The Fellowship
    and I are committed to staying in relationship throughout this time so
    that healing will happen for everyone.  At this time I need your prayers.  

    The MIDDLESEX NEWS reported that the philosophy of this institute 
    was celibicy on the staff except for those married.  It indicated
    that this individual was married.  I find quite disconcerting a 
    leader so blatently crossing so many boundaries while requiring
    others to uphold the teachings.  It is distasteful enough when
    married individuals cross the boundaries of their sacred marriage
    vows but more so when those that lead with specific tenents set
    themselves apart from others.  

    
    Re.108 - thanks so much for entering that.  I haven't yet received
    communication through KIN, and only had a brief conversation with a
    fellow disciple a few days ago about it.
    
    Jacqui, I am a direct disciple of Gurudev, and know many of the people
    who are close to him and who live there at the Center as well.  I can 
    only imagine what they are going through.  As for myself, I am not so
    much affected by it, but still the news itself was shocking.  Gurudev,
    of all people.  To know him and to have spent so much time around him,
    this borders on the realm of unimaginable.  And it is made so much 
    worse knowing that women have suffered because of this...it is a 
    terrible, terrible thing.  
    
    Yes, Gurudev has been married to a wonderful saint of a woman who's
    name is Urmila (Mataji, as we call her).  They have three children, all
    grown, and two are closely affiliated with Kripalu.  
    
    The practice of celibacy at the Center is called brahmacharya. 
    Actually I have enjoyed going there very much because of it...it's one
    of the places I can go for a vacation and never get 'bothered', or at
    worst case, 'harassed'.  Instead, the sexes respect the space of each  
    other, and it's been very healing in that way.  That Gurudev has not
    practiced what he preached is so unfortunate, and hypocritical too. 
    And yet, the teaching itself, and its implementation at the Center, is 
    right and true, and countless numbers of us are far better off for it.
    
    If you or anyone has any further questions, feel free to ask here.
    
    Jai Bhagwan,
    
    Ushini (my Sanskrit name)
    
    PS. Your healing energy sent in the direction of Kripalu in Lenox,
        Massachusetts, would be most appreciated by all there.  Thank you.

    more from Sudhir:
    .................
    
    From: [email protected]
    Subject: Nov 2 Kripalu PR Update
    To: [email protected], [email protected]
    
    
    
    Hi everybody.  What long days here at Kripalu dealing with the
    unfolding of the Kripalu story......
    
    An update on our PR, in case you want to track the story with me
    through the media:
    
    Berkshire Eagle articles, very fairly done,with good research, were
    picked up and put on on Associate Press wires, for radio and printed 
    media and distribution through the USA.
    
    Boston Globe ran the AP article and they are doing two more follow up
    pieces.  Very friendly press.and I anticipate some good coverage.
    
    Local weeklies do features.
    
    Sudhir does local radio interviews.  The head newsman at WBEC in
    Pittsfield is coming out this weekend to interview for the SLT program!
    
    The AP story is picked up around the country here and there.  Some
    not-so great rewrites.  Example:  try this headline:  SEX AND SINGLE 
    GURU:  NOT!  
    
    We graciously turn down an invitation to the Sally Raphael show.
    
    Rueters picks up the story, so we're national for a while.  Again,
    they're basing their story on the Berkshire Eagle piece, which was 
    written by a 'friend of the Kripalu family.'
    
    Yoga Journal is willing to let me (Sudhir) do an 800-word piece from
    "what it's like inside the community" with a 1000-word piece from them 
    as an intro.
     This couldn't be more accomodating...
    
    Common Boundary magazine is willing to co-create our piece for their
    next issue which happens to be on "fallen gurus."  Just in time for the
    deadline!
    
    No TV yet!   Keep your fingers crossed.  Just in case, we've created
    some extra footage for them in exchange for not doing any shooting 
    inside the building.
    
    So far, our stand for full disclosure and full integrity is working
    miracles.
     In the interviews I've done, the reporters are all so immensely
    pleased that we're working WITH them that they've be very patient, fair 
    and compassionate.
     Truth:  What a Concept!
    
    More people are calling the 800 number each day.  When the letter to
    8,000 extended family members hits the mailboxes we anticipate more calls.
    
    All in all, we're doing great.  Your warm thoughts and prayers must be
    paying off!
    
    That's it for now.  Sorry this isn't better edited, but I'm pretty
    busy.  I'm thinking of you.  My love to you.
    
    Sudhir 

    All is right with the world.  The universe is unfolding as 
    it should.
    
    Let it burn.
    
    This might not sound like a very compassionate thing to say
    but if you look beyond the immediate future this can produce
    some very profound results.
    
    I've been in the "guru scene" before.  At times it resembled a
    personality cult with groupies more than a spiritual community.
    For a while this serves the purpose of sadhana (spiritual practice)
    but there comes a point when a student's attachment to his/her 
    teacher becomes the major block.
    
    A similar thing happened with Muktananda, but what he taught was
    also profound.  At one point he went to visit another "guru".  He
    and his "group" arrived and walked up to the other guru who was
    holding darshan.  This guy jumped up and proclaimed "I'm the one!"
    to which Muktananda replied, "If you're the one, then who are all
    of these people?"
    
    You are the One, as much as anyone else.  You need to find the
    god in *YOU*.   For whatever reason, Lord Shiva (the destroying/
    purifying aspect of God) has chosen this time to cut the cord. 
    Gurudev is/has simply danced to Shiva's drum.
    
    You don't have to be pure to speak the truth.  You only have to be
    honest.
    
>    So far, our stand for full disclosure and full integrity is working
>    miracles.
>     In the interviews I've done, the reporters are all so immensely
>    pleased that we're working WITH them that they've be very patient, fair 
>    and compassionate.
>     Truth:  What a Concept!
    
    Hmmm... don't look know but I think someone "got it."  :-)  Gurudev's
    message seems to have gotten through.
    
    A guru's teaching holds immense worth.  Perhaps his "downfall" is just
    as valuable.  This, at least, is what I found.
    
    "You are absolutely free.  Despite what is and what is not, you are free."
    						Muktananda
    
    I sympathize with those who are in pain.  I have felt it too.
    Determine what is true and have faith.  Where does truth come
    from?

    Namaste'
    Tom

    Where does truth come from?   Part of truth is ....


    		I N T E G R I T Y!!!!


    Please and thank you.

    justme....jacqui

    
    Re.112
    
    >"I am the One."  (...then who are all these people?)
    
    Funny...I've heard that quote attributed to Sai Baba.  (;^)
    
    Cindy

           
    I'm just reading my Nov/Dec 1994 issue of Yoga Journal.  In it, there
    is a lengthy writeup about Kripalu, however the piece was done just 
    before the latest developments mentioned in the prior two notes had been
    announced.
    
    If you are following this story, the Nov/Dec Yoga Journal article is 
    highly recommended reading.  
    
    Cindy

    another letter from the ashram:
    --------------------------------
    
    From: [email protected] (shivram roger pottinger)
    Subject: Guru Disciple Relationship
    To: [email protected]
    Cc: [email protected]
    
    Jai Bhagwan Dharmadas, 
    We share the following message, and we would be very grateful if you 
    could network this to all our brothers and sisters on E. Mail.  We will
    be communicating with others by fax and post mail.  Thankyou So very
    much.  Hari Om Shanti.
    
    Jai Bhagwan dear brothers and sisters,
    This is a sharing around ideas and experiences that have happened for
    both of us at Amrit House.
    Firstly we are just fine. We experienced some shock, arnica was great,
    some grief, copious tissues!
    But most importantly, we felt a deep remembering, that we as disciples
    are not here to judge the Guru, or to make him accountable!
    The traditional Guru/disciple relationship feeds our soul/spirit and
    often does not marry with concepts and beliefs around happenings that we
    perceive through our conditioning and expectations.
    So our intention is to support Gurudev, by continuing to be present in
    our own sadhana.  From this point we keep open the channels whereby we know
    the part of us that is touched when we sit at the feet of our Guru.  
    We are reading the scriptures to remind ourselves that we came to
    Gurudev from the hunger and calling of our soul, not from our needs to 
    find a perfect being.
    We are sharing Japa - chanting God's name to keep our minds pure and
    praying to God to keep an awareness that we are all in karmic relationship 
    with our Guru.
    Jesus said in relation to the accusation of the prostitute, 
    'Let those among you without sin throw the first stone'
    
    We have found the following words of Krishna an inspiration and we
    would like to share those with you.
    This world that the senses perceive is a dream,
    There's nothing within it that is what it seems,
    So keep your mind steady, remembering me,
    and do what you must, whilst your hearts remain free.
    These words of Krishna are from the Atma Gita.
    Also the following words from the Book I am That.
    Q. Must I not examine the teacher before I put myself entirely into his
    hands?
    A. By all means examine! but what can you find out? only as he appears to
    you on your own level.....
    Q. I should at least expect him to be a man of self-control who lives a 
    righteous life.
    A. Such you will find many - and of no use to you.  A Guru can show the
    way back home, to your real self.  What has this to do with the character,
    or  temperament of the person he appears to be?
    Does he not clearly tell you that he is not the person?
    The only way you can judge is by the change in yourself when you are in
    his company.  If you feel more at peace and happy, if you understand
    yourself with more than usual clarity and depth, it means you have met the 
    right man.
    
    So dear sisters and brothers, our feeling is that we can all support
    each other through prayer and compassion.
    Our Guru needs our prayers, his family need our prayers and we all need 
    compassion for each other as we move through different experiences.
    But we can help ourselves at a deeper level than judgement of the mind.
    We can remember the gift that our Guru is and all those he has touched.
    Through deep meditation we will attune to the true wealth that our Guru
    has opened in our lives.
    Through our sadhana we will find the strength to be with the interactions
    that we will no doubt all have to move through as people begin to hear
    with the 'ears of the world' and it will not be easy for any of us.
    But God will keep us in the hollow of his hand along with our Guru at
    this time.
    Jai Bhagwan, Hari Om Shanti, Jai Gurudev.
    Shivram & Shivani
    -- 

    Excuse me a minute...


    	Where are the prayers and exhortations for the VICTIMS
    	in this issue?  The perpetrator is receiving much and
    	many vibrations his way.  Please remember the three 
    	souls that were entranced by the perpetrator who must
    	remain the one responsible for his own shortcomings.
    	The only way to truth and light is for integrity to 
    	shine through at all times.

    
    Please and thank you.

    	justme....jacqui

    
    More messages from the ashram:
    ------------------------------
    
    Dear brothers and sisters:
    
    Here are some of the responses that I have received to the various
    mailings I have sent out.  I thought that you would like to see them. 
    
    I hope you are hanging in with your process.  We had a meeting of over
    50 people last night here in Boston, both sharing information and giving
    people time to talk in small groups.  It was very helpful for everyone to 
    come together in that way.  We will be continuing this process in the 
    coming weeks. 
    
    I was at Shadowbrook this past Friday and participated in a meeting on
    how to provide more support for the healing process in the extended 
    family.  A new team was set up, headed by Devanand, to be responsible for 
    this function.  I am also on that team, along with Jaiguri and Manumati.  
    Others from outside Shadowbrook are being recruited.  We are looking at 
    ways to keep the information flowing throughout the Network, providing 
    resources to local groups to assist them in the healing process, and 
    providing low-cost programs at Shadowbrook for those who want to come 
    there.  I will provide all of you more information as it develops.  Please 
    communicate to me any ideas, wants, needs that you have so that they can 
    be considered.  We need all the input that we can get. 
    
    So, here are those letters I mentioned above.
    
    Jai bhagwan,  Dharmadas
    ......................................................................
    13:06:27.98 Date: Wed, 02 Nov 1994 13:05:06 -0500
    Subject: Re: Gurudev's Resignation
    
    To: [email protected]
    
    I have heard the details of the sexual relations.  Before I knew the
    details I felt sorry for Gurudev.  Now I feel sorry for the sisters - 
    whom I shared the same time periods with - and for the climate that 
    allowed this to happen.  At first I must have been in shock.  Today I 
    realize that this has called into question the teachings by which I 
    continue to live my life. Which teachings should I trust?  I am very much 
    interested in being with the community in a program for self-healing and 
    re-integration.  I am not able to come for more than a weekend.  What have 
    you got? Jai Bhagwan -
    Bharati Claxton
    
    
    Date: Wed, 02 Nov 1994 22:52:02 +0200 (WET)
    Subject: Re: Letter from Shivram
    
    To: [email protected]
    
    Dear Shivram,
            I read your letter with agreement; it is one of the thoughts I 
    tell myself. As someone who lived at Kripalu for four (and a quarter) 
    years and who had seva interactions with Gurudev and who was a bhakti
    as  bhakti as they come and who left with no hard feelings but rather full
    of love, respect and gratitude for Gurudev (he even gave me a pair of his 
    sandals), I want to remind you that God also gave us minds and
    opinions,  and they too have their place. To me the jewel not to miss is 
    not that we shouldn't judge -- of course we don't understand his 
    consciousness -- but that he is human too. A sadhak on the path, as he 
    would say. To me this gives me back the power, emphasizes that the work is 
    mine to do: grace may or may not be there, but our part is the other wing 
    (will; ours is to work on ourselves). What a gift, no?
    Jai Bhagwan,
    Subodh
    
    Date: Fri, 04 Nov 1994 09:58:45 -0500
    Subject: Re: Update from Sudhir/Reply from Rajkumar
    
    To: [email protected]
    
    Dear Sudhir,  The update is appreciated.  My thoughts and prayers are
    with all who are so deeply affected by this event.  My Love and Compassion
    are with those who were deeply hurt by Gurudev's tottaly inappropriate
    actions.
     My Love and Compassion are with Gurudev and his family, and my hope is
    for healing, awareness, and transformation for all.  However, I must own
    all of my feelings.  I feel strongly that healthy relationships are based 
    on boundaries and ancknowledgement of one's own shadow.  We at Kripalu are
    so much into Love and Light that we often deny our own shadow, that which
    is our human nature which lurks below the surface.  We are all capable of 
    many acts.
     Denial of this part of our self, and repression of our shadow leads to
    what we are seeing manifest in the community now.  I am sure Gurudev is not
    the only person at Shadowbrook to act out sexually while claiming celabacy.
    I own my own shadow. I know what I am capable of.  I was in an active
    adddiction for 15 years, chemicals, sex, lying, stealing, cheating. I
    was a hypocrite and a phony.  With the Grace of God, I am in my 13th year 
    of recovery.  And I still struggle with my shadow on a daily basis.  Part
    of my shadow is Anger.  
    I have been angry this week.  Angry with Gurudev, angry with God, simply
    angry.  Gurudev has violated a sacred trust.  The acts in the 2 cases
    we know about, were nothing less than incest. Spiritual and Emotional.  I
    resent any attempt to minimize the consequences of such violation.  
    Truth is an amazing concept.  My hope is that you and those in charge
    of "damage control" maintain the courage to be in Truth. It is an
    opportunity for all in the Kripalu family to bring our shadows into the 
    light. Repressed shadows grow strong, thrive, and run the show from 
    underground.  It is time for us to own all of us.  Enough pretending to be 
    all Love and Light.  We're in the mud now. Out of the dirt and darkness 
    grows true life. My hope is that Kripalu becomes grounded in Truth.
    
    Jai.  Rajkumar.
    
    
    
    Date: Fri,  4 Nov 94 23:23:00 UTC
    Subject: Update from Sudhir
    To: [email protected]
    
    Dear Dharmadas and Sudhir and Priyanath (and whomever),
     
            Thank you for the update.  I do appreciate it.  And I'm glad the
    media is being compassionate.  Doesn't the root of Kripalu mean
    compassionate?
     
            I was wondering what Kripalu would be doing for a spiritual
    leader?  You can't just advertise for a guru?  Is there a disciple ready 
    to provide that type of leadership?
     
            If not, I was thinking that Kripalu could become a unique
    ashram and community.  I feel that the highest spiritual voice is the 
    voice within each of us.  I wonder with the practice of yoga and the 
    lifestyle of Kripalu and the sharing of wisedom from many sources, if this 
    isn't the time for something new and wonderful....not to worship a guru, 
    but to see the spark of the divine within each of us and cherish that.
     
            My love goes out to all of you (and all of us).  This is a
    difficult time.  But there is probably a reason for this.  Maybe this is a 
    unique opportunity for growth.  I hope Gurudev and all the people directly
    involved with these troubles find peace and comfort in truth and love.
     
                                            Kira in Columbia MD
    
    
    
    Date: Sat, 05 Nov 1994 08:17:00 -0500
    Subject: Re: A Time for Co-creative Vision
    
    To: [email protected]
    
    Thankyou for sharing such distrubing news with us in such a loving and
    understanding manner. A group of us met last night here in the Hartford
    area to share our responses to the news. It was very difficult.  I realize
    that Kripalu will never be the same, but that the choice of what it becomes
    is with all of us, and in a special way with Gurudev. I want to share with
    you my vision for where we can go from here.
    Gurudev will return with love and compassion and sorrow in his heart.
    Seeking forgiveness, he will share himself fully with us in a way that 
    models for us the way we all need to heal ourselves. He will be able to 
    fully accept and love himself, and re-establish his commitment to and the 
    integrity of the guru disciple relationship in a way that honors the 
    co-creative community aspects of the New Kripalu. This New Kripalu will be 
    a lighthouse for those who are seeking to go beyond their past and who 
    want to rekindle the light of love and joy in their lives. Those who enter 
    the New Kripalu will know that the darker ego based aspects of all of us 
    have been experienced deeply in this place, and they have been dissolved 
    by the power of love through the process of forgiveness and a renewed 
    commitment to the divine within each of us. The New Kriplau will be 
    continually in an energetic, dynamic process of co-creation by not one 
    guru but by all the gurus who commit their spirits this work of God.
    This is my vision and prayer for you. 
    All of my love to you, and all of the brothers and sisters at Kripalu,
    especially our brother and teacher, Gurudev.
    
    
    Date: Sun, 06 Nov 1994 19:30:00 +0000 (UTC)
    Subject: Add To Mailing List
    To: [email protected]
    
    Dharmadas,
     
          
            Today in our Sunday Morning yoga, our Columbia Area Kripalu
    Support Group did a lot of sharing about this week's events.  Some people 
    were saddened, others felt betrayal, others were wondering how this will
    make Kripalu different.  All agreed that Gurudev's teachings are important
    to us and all felt that the Kripalu Fellowship was more than a relationship
    with Gurudev.  We recognize the human in each of us including Gurudev.  We
    acknowledge that growth and learning seem to come through pain.  This
    wil be a growing time and lessons will likely be learned.  And we have the
    opportunity to experience compassion.
     
            I am sorry for the pain of this experience, but I do see the
    process as a positive one.  As one sister said, every coin has 2 sides.  
    We are only seeing one side right now.  As this plays out, we will see the 
    other side and it will be the positive half to this negative time.
     
            I didn't mean to go on like this.  I just really was writing so
    you could add these 2 new addresses to our mailing list.
     
                                            In light and love,
                                                           Kira in Columbia MD
    

                                  
    Jacqui,
    
    I don't for a moment believe that there is any deliberate 
    attempt to not include the three women who were wronged in
    prayers.
    
    It is only a few letters posted here out of countless that are 
    no doubt flying around the network at the moment. Therefore it 
    is difficult to judge (probably at this point now) several 
    thousand people who are now involved, and base one's opinion
    what they are/aren't doing both on the net and in their own 
    private prayers on just a small portion of the postings in this
    conference.  Given that I know the high quality and integrity 
    of these people in general, I would be very surprised if they 
    *weren't* praying for the women, even though it may not appear
    that way to you at this moment.
    
    As an aside - it would be even more helpful if we could get 
    more details on exactly what happened during these incidents.  
    Hopefully these details will become available very shortly.
    
    Cindy 

    Cindy,

    Thank you for your reply.  I am, of course, reacting to the fact
    that what I have seen is a rush to the perpetrator rather than
    a rush to the victims who are not at the top of the food chain
    in the organization in question.  The perpetrator led the food
    chain and, thus, is the one fixated upon in the media.  The flood
    of letters and those left to do 'damage control' might do well
    to focus on the victims before dealing with the perpetrator.  This
    would do more healing than what I have seen happening.  I still
    feel that institutions seem to 'forget' the victims.  We see this
    time and time again.  

    I found it quite a different experience years ago in Sunday school
    work to go to the victim whilst the other teachers and students 
    focussed on the perpetrator in a classroom incident.  The feelings
    of the victim were being ignored except that the Superintendent
    (moi) focussed on his needs.  It astounds me that perpetrators
    always get the attention.  I feel that we, in society, need to 
    rethink our behaviors in this regard.

    justme....jacqui

    p.s.  I do not think that the leader who perpetrated these deeds
    	  can/should be returned to the post that he sullied.  The 
    	  lesson that he needs to learn is that one is responsible 
    	  for ones actions and needs to take the consequences of said
    	  actions.  That is truely learning and living in the light.

                             
    True, Jacqui.  
    
    And I am in complete agreement with you about not allowing
    the person back to the prior position.  No doubt this will
    probably become even stronger as the details are released.
    
    From the first letter in .118, it appears to be even worse
    than initially believed.  Notice the shift from feeling 
    sorry for Gurudev initially, but then when the person heard
    the details (which I have not yet heard), they shifted to
    the women.  Therefore, I'm certain that this will happen 
    now as a matter of course, and they will quickly be brought
    to the forefront.
    
    I don't know if you know or are familiar with Gurudev, however
    aside from being a disciple, I've spent weeks at Kripalu, spent
    many hours in the audiences where he has spoken, and know many,
    many people who are close to him.  It was as much of a shock 
    and a disbelief that this had happened, as it would have been 
    to find out that a very close (dear, kind, and beloved) relative 
    of mine had done this.  Out of that initial shock, it may be 
    just a natural reaction to go to the person who is the accused 
    perpetrator, if only out of total disbelief at the unreality of 
    the situation.
    
    But then as the facts become available, the intellect takes over
    and weighs the evidence accordingly.  I think that this situation
    is now beginning to enter this phase.
    
    Having been in abusive situations in my life in the past, and 
    trying to tell my story to people who either did not or could 
    not believe it of the other person, I know where you are coming 
    from because I've been there.  The denial, the blaming of the
    victim (it must have been your fault or imagination), and so on.
    Yet I continued to tell my story, and finally got the real truth
    out to other people who at long last at least acknowledge that
    I was saying was true.
    
    Given the situation at hand, and the people who are going through
    it, I see more a push for the truth and openness than a strong 
    'damage control' effort, and I'm encouraged by that.  
    
    Cindy

    The main person I feel bad for is his marriage partner. What 
    about her feelings. I'm sure she must be devastated. She's the 
    main one who's been betrayed. Now she's probably expected to stand
    by his side as he goes through this.
   
    I know there are patterns of behavior. I also think it takes two
    to tangle. You can always say no. It should only become a problem
    if the behavior is way out of line. If it was out of line then
    these women took the appropriate actions. 
    
    Perpetrator and victims are pretty strong words to be using when you
    don't know the whole story. Don't try to be judge and jury. Let the
    persons who investigate bring about the justice in this case.
    
    It must have been sudden and shocking. Time to re-evaluate values.
   

    Hello~
     	Most of the Kripalu community is uniting together and praying for
    both the victims as well as Gurudev.   
        I have been recieving all of this information from a family member
    who is a Kripalu yoga teacher.  I have recieved the following info this
    morning, it is not an official publication yet it has more of the
    details.... peace and smiles,:), danielle  
    
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    
    Subject: Q and A update/ Kripalu
    
    To: [email protected]
    
    
    Dear friends.  I'm sorry I can't respond to your email comments yet.  As 
    you can imagine, I'm up to my eyeballs in seva.  I've got here some of the
    Q/A we've put together for our 800 number.  Feel free to call if you'd like
    additional information.   Love,  Sudhir
    
    
    
    THE QUESTIONS PEOPLE ARE ASKING MOST
    ABOUT THE SITUATION AND THEIR ANSWERS 
    (This is not an official publication. We have created it as a resource 
    for discussion with our community and extended family members. 
    Please refer all media inquiries to Jonathan Foust (Sudhir) at
    413-448-3120
    
    
    WHAT IS THE FULL PICTURE OF WHY THE KRIPALU BOARD TOOK THE ACTION THEY DID?
    
    In 1985, a long-time resident and disciple who had moved out of the
    ashram a few years before, stepped forward and claimed that 11 years 
    earlier, Gurudev had used his influence to persuade her to have sex with 
    him on numerous occasions over a two-year period. She further claimed that 
    Gurudev was having an ongoing affair with Krishnapriya, who was then CEO 
    of the Fellowship. She claimed the affair had been going on since almost 
    the beginning of the ashram, while he was preaching the practice of 
    Brahmacharya (celibacy) to his disciples.
    
    At the time, these claims were denied by Gurudev and Krishnapriya. Gurudev
    now admits that he did in fact have inappropriate sexual contact with the
    woman who stepped forward in 1985 and with Krishnapriya as well.
    
    Back in 1985, however, Krishnapriya and Gurudev responded to these claims 
    by characterizing the woman as disturbed and sexually-promiscuous.
    Krishnapriya and Gurudev used their power and influence to discredit the 
    woman and this turned the community-including her former husband and her 
    seven year old son-against her. Her son, believing what his Guru told him, 
    has never completely trusted his mother, nor had the same relationship 
    with her since.  Her former husband now reports he asked Gurudev directly 
    three times about having had sex with his former wife and that Gurudev 
    denied it each time. The woman became an outcast, losing many of her 
    closest relationships as a result.
    
    There was at least one other resident at that time who believed these 
    claims to be true because Gurudev also had inappropriate sexual contact 
    with her during 1977. She was petrified by what she had witnessed-the 
    emotional trauma of a woman for stepping forward with the truth. She 
    therefore shutdown and withheld what she knew. Gurudev has now admitted he 
    had inappropriate sexual contact with this woman as well.
    
    In 1985 the woman told her husband what happened and then in 1989 told
    her closest friend. The husband and friend were outraged, but for their own
    reasons and because they too had seen what had happened to the other
    woman in 1985, they chose to say nothing. Shortly thereafter, both the 
    woman's husband and her friend developed chronic fatigue syndrome and have 
    felt the effects ever since. Eventually, the woman, her husband, and her 
    friend all went into therapy. 
    In December of 1993, perhaps because Krishnapriya had recently resigned
    and left, the woman, her husband, and her friend decided to take action.
    They went to Gurudev and asked him to admit the truth. According to the
    three individuals, he vacillated. At times he said he knew he had to step
    forward.  At others, he backed off. While he did go with the woman to one 
    of her psychotherapy sessions, he did not come forward with the truth to 
    the community. This continued through the summer of 1994.
    
    After a six-week sabbatical the woman, supported by her husband and her
    friend, returned to the community in October and told her story to the
    current administration. They spent several weeks speaking with Gurudev,
    trying to persuade him to come forward. He refused. 
    
    On Monday, October 24th, the administration was preparing to take action 
    when the husband publicly confronted Krishnapriya, who had returned to the
    community after a one-year leave of absence.
    
    After that incident, the administration decided to act quickly because
    the news was already getting out and Gurudev had still not come forward. 
    An emergency Board of Director's meeting was called for that Wednesday.
    Gurudev was invited to that meeting but declined to attend. The Board met 
    all day and concluded that Gurudev's past actions, as well as his current
    resistance and vacillation, warranted immediate, strong response.
    
    While, acknowledging a strong commitment to stay in relationship with
    him to promote healing and growth, the Board asked for: 1) Gurudev's
    resignation from the formal role as Spiritual Director of Kripalu Yoga 
    Fellowship;  2) a public admission; 3) agreement to financially support 
    the healing of the women involved, as well as the son; and 4) a 
    willingness to take steps to heal both himself and his relationships with 
    the individuals involved. 
    
    On Saturday, October 29th, Gurudev came back to the Board and publicly
    admitted he did have inappropriate sexual contact with the three women
    and agreed to make psychological and financial restitution. He also,
    without any coercion or intimidation, agreed he was not able at this time 
    to fulfill the role of Spiritual Director of Kripalu Yoga Fellowship.
    
    On Sunday, October 30th, Gurudev came before the entire family and
    asked for forgiveness. He made it clear that the Board acted fairly and 
    expressed gratitude for their actions. Gurudev also asked that people not 
    abandon the Kripalu path because of what he has done. 
    
    While it is clear that Gurudev was strongly encouraged to come forward
    by the Board, it is important to note that he was in no way legally-bound 
    to do so.  He did so voluntarily and with great courage.
    
    Gurudev has decided to go away for a period of time to begin his healing
    process. It is now up to each individual to decide how, if at all, they
    will retain a relationship with him.
    
    ISN'T THIS JUST A MATTER OF SEX BETWEEN CONSENTING ADULTS-WHAT'S THE BIG
    DEAL?
    The relationship between a disciple and their guru is more sacred than
    with a therapist, where the leader says: "I know what's best for you
    spiritually.  Follow my guidance and I will insure that you will have a 
    spiritual life."  This is where the real abuse occurred.
    
    WERE ANY OF THESE THREE WOMEN MARRIED AT THE TIME THEY HAD THIS SEXUAL
    CONTACT WITH GURUDEV?
    No. All were single at the time.
    
    WHAT DOES THIS MEAN ABOUT GURUDEV BEING MY GURU?
    There are many people here who are very definite about Gurudev remaining
    their Guru. Others are just as sure they don't want him as their Guru
    anymore. It is a matter of personal choice.
    
    WHERE IS GURUDEV GOING? WHEN? IS HE COMING BACK? WHEN?
    We don't know where he is going, or how long he will be gone.
    
    WHO'S GOING TO BE IN CHARGE NOW?
    The Strategic Council has and will continue to be the final decision
    making body for the community. All big actions they want to make are 
    brought to and voted on by the Board of Directors. This has been our 
    standard operating procedure for years.
    
    WHO'S RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS DECISION? WHO ARE THE PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD? 
    The board is a combination of appointed and elected members. Most of them 
    are residents. Some of them are disciples who live outside of the ashram. 
    
    WAS GURUDEV INVOLVED IN THIS PROCESS? 
    Gurudev participated fully in the final decision. He agreed resigning was 
    the best course of action for him to take at this time.
    
    BUT DOESN'T GURUDEV OWN KRIPALU CENTER?
    No. Kripalu Yoga Fellowship, a nonprofit corporation, owns Kripalu Center 
    and all the other assets. Gurudev has been independent from the Fellowship.
    He has retained ownership of much of Sumneytown.
    
    I HEARD YOU WERE TAKING ALL PICTURES AND ALL MENTION OF GURUDEV
    AWAY. IS THIS TRUE?
    Not completely. Gurudev has himself suggested that it is inappropriate
    to have his pictures so frequently displayed throughout the building. We
    are removing some pictures and mentions of him where it is clearly no
    longer appropriate. However, there are many references by and about Gurudev
    that will continue to be appropriate to mention or include.  This 
    discussion is still obviously in process.
    
    IF I'M A YOGA TEACHER, WHAT DO I DO NOW? WHAT DO I TELL MY YOGA CLASSES?
    SHOULD I SHOW GURUDEV VIDEOS?
    Our KYTA office is preparing a mailing to help you understand more fully 
    and to help you deal with the questions your students may have. You can use
    this as an opportunity to teach about aspects of yoga such as holding the
    posture in the face of discomfort, or the yamas and the niyamas. If you 
    need personal contact from a KYTA representative, we will be glad to take 
    your name and someone will call you.
    
    IF I'M A SUPPORT GROUP LEADER, WHAT DO I DO NOW? WHAT DO I TELL MY SUPPORT
    GROUP? SHOULD I SHOW GURUDEV VIDEOS?
    Our KIN office is preparing a mailing to help you understand more fully
    and to help you deal with questions members of your local support group may
    have.  You can use this as an opportunity to teach about aspects of yoga 
    such as holding the posture in the face of discomfort, or the yamas and the
    niyamas.  If you need personal contact from a KIN representative, we will 
    be glad to take your name and someone will call you.
    
    IS THE CENTER CLOSING?
    Absolutely not. Gurudev has not been involved in the day-to-day operation 
    of Kripalu Center for quite some time.  Also, we fully intend to use this
    experience as an opportunity to practice what we have been learning all
    these years about love, integrity, and non-separative consciousness.
    
    WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH KRISHNAPRIYA?
    She has been asked to leave the community because of her role in these
    matters.  (She has now left.)
    
    DOESN'T THIS LEAVE GURUDEV WITHOUT AN INCOME?
    Gurudev will continue to receive royalties from the sale of his books
    and tapes. Also, we understand it is Gurudev's intention to eventually
    resume his seminar schedule, after his contemplation and healing time is 
    over.
    
    I'M A DISCIPLE AND I'M IN SHOCK. IS THERE SOMEWHERE I CAN GO TO BE WITH
    OTHER DISCIPLES TO HELP ME HEAL?
    Sumneytown is holding a special Kripalu Disciples Retreat this weekend.
    If you'd like more information, please call (215) 234-4568. And, of course
    you are welcome here as well. 
    
    WHAT CAN I DO? HOW CAN I HELP?
    Let people who care about Kripalu know the truth about what you know. And,
    have compassion for anyone you hear about or know that feels
    differently about what has happened than you feel.
    
    IF I DON'T AGREE WITH THIS DECISION-WHAT CAN I DO?
    Please put your thoughts in writing and send them to us here at Kripalu
    Communications, Box 793, Lenox, MA 01240.
    
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    It may take two to tango, but it takes only one to stick out a foot
    and trip someone else.
    
    							Ann B.

                                                             
    Thanks very much for posting .123.
    
    Very interesting.  Last night I was wondering just who it was that
    could have been involved in this, and Krishnapriya's name came to 
    me very strongly. I felt it to be a bit odd when I read that she 
    had taken a one year sabbatical and that someone else was appointed
    as CEO...something just wasn't right, yet I couldn't figure out 
    what it was. 
    
    I am absolutely appalled at what has happened to those two other 
    women.  Clearly there was an abuse of power involved, along with 
    serious violations of trust, to name but a few factors.  This 
    behavior is totally unacceptable for anyone - especially in that 
    kind of a position, regardless of the rest of the work he has 
    done - and I hope that justice prevails in every sense.    
    
    Cindy

    Here is an update from Kripalu:
    ================================
    
    Date: Tue, 08 Nov 1994 21:43:03 -0500
    From: [email protected]
    Subject: Update from Kripalu Nov 8
    To: [email protected]
    
    HI Dharmadas and HI everybody:                Tues PM, Nov 8
    
    I am deeply grateful for this electronic network.  As I read the emails
    being passed around I feel like I'm breathing clean mountain air.  The
    compassion and understanding and deep feeling draws me into deep peace.  
    Quite a respite from the daily PR scene at Kripalu these days.
    
    For me, this is a time of "generating yoga."  Wherever I am, whatever
    the reaction, whatever the obstacle, a new rumor or logistic complication,
    I know I can generate inner peace no matter where I am.
    
    Who am I if I am my own disciple?  
    
    There are times in meditation when I tune into the possibility of "no
    guru," and honestly, I can scarcely contain the bliss.
    
    This is such a time of renewal for all of us.  The residents, from what
    I can tell, are adapting quickly, still with deep feeling, but moving into 
    a new space of embracing the birth of the New Kripalu.
    
    The New Kripalu is, for me, a stronger stand in the teachings which
    have brought us all together.  It is a stronger stand for integrity, for 
    the lasting power of truth.  For community as equals, and the ultimate
    equalizer of spirit.  Let us NOT forget the purity of our hearts that has 
    drawn us together.  That has not changed.
    
    So many gifts from this event.  And yet...I am the founding father of
    the Premature Forgiveness Watchdog Committee.
    
    It's important for me to stay with the feelings.  My twelve years here. My
    feelings of being a victim.  Of being a perpetrator.  Of not speaking,
    even though there were no words, but a "sense."
    
    This is a time to dance in the rubble.
    
    What we Kripaluans are going through is maybe a warm-up for what the
    rest of the world is going through or will go through:  the collapse of
    structure -- the falling away of illusion -- the revealing of a new way to 
    be  -- of truly sourcing within.
    
    I am unspeakably grateful for this community.  We speak of satsanga. 
    When I share with you, with my brothers and sisters -- of this time of 
    Waking Up, Satsanga -- the gathering in the name of truth-- is here, and 
    the teaching lives in each one of us.
    
    Thank you for listening and for being there for me, for all of us, and
    for birthing the Unknown...
    
    We've been talking for a long time about this "ashram without walls." 
    Here we be.  
    
    What now?  How?  The inquiry is fathomless.  What IF we are our own
    disciples?
    
    Love,
    
    
    Sudhir
    
    PS  Media coverage has slowed down in terms of dailies and weeklies. 
    We have some pieces in the works with Yoga Journal and Common Boundary on 
    the happenings in the community.  Just heard (gulp!) Hard Copy was making a
    few calls to people outside the community.  I'll keep you posted.  Thus
    far, the Gods of PR have been fully with us.
    
    PPS.  Thanks for bearing with me.

    Your own disciples?  Yes, it is possible.  But not for everyone.

    Without a spiritual leader many people won't have the discipline
    to be a disciple.  Their master isn't strong enough.  This is
    where a guru is of great value.  Some will prosper, but I fear
    disillusion will set in when many discover that their new guru
    is no more moral than their old one.

    Spiritual life isn't all meditation and bliss.  True spiritual 
    life is tougher than "regular" life.  Many are going to find out
    just how much tougher it is.  Some will drop out.  Many will slide.
    Few will find the guru inside, stay focused and surrender to it.

    Good luck,

    Tom "Slip-sliding-away"

    Re.127
    
    >Your own disciples?
    
    No different than being your own adult, Tom.  In fact, it's the very
    same thing.  Some people need laws and structure to live by, and police
    to make sure they 'follow the rules'.  Others, however, need no creed
    or set of commandments to tell them to love their neighbor as their own
    self, for example...they just live it out of their hearts as a matter 
    of course.  
    
    Just as some notes files need constant moderation, there are also some 
    notes files (like this one) that are virtually moderatorless and can 
    go for long periods of time without one.  (;^)
    
    The people at Kripalu are an amazing bunch of people - true adults in 
    every sense of the word - and for them/us, I believe it is possible.
    
    In fact, ironically enough, even Gurudev himself recognized this. In 
    the last issue of Yoga Journal that was published, there was a lengthy
    article entitled "Shrinking The Guru", on Gurudev and Kripalu, where
    Gurudev states that the Kripalu community has reached adulthood.  It's 
    well worth reading...and indeed it is truly amazing and prophetic, 
    given the events that have unfolded since then.
    
    If anyone wants a copy, contact me offline and send your preferred
    mailing address (postage is not a problem.)
                                                   
    Cindy 

    I hope you're right.

    Tom

    
      I haven't visited the center in question, but have been to one just
      like it the Hungarian town of Fawdeeda.
    
      It was their I searched for inner peace, although I knew the
      whereabouts of my flask. I spoke to the Guru of Met-als.....a large
      man of many words, by the name of Bobby Fwoo. His dialect was strong
      & difficult to understand at first, but I soon learned of the 
      definitions of words like "Wiscut" and "Face-int".
    
      He had a way with the women of the camp, although he would never
      abuse their trust, for fear of reprisals come April....or was that June.
    
      All who were taught by him, referred to him simply as "The BIG man".  
      
                                                                         
      From the day I first met this Natural Team Leader, I have found yoga 
      both stimulating & exciting.
    
      Especially those new ones from Muller with the different flavoured
      fruits in the corner.
    
    
                                                         

    Have I got my facts right.

    This guru chappie has used his position and authority to;

    seduce and debauch 2 women, repeatedly and over long periods. 

    He has repeatedly denied it.

    He has estranged the husbands from their wives.

    He has driven a wedge between a son and his mother (in my opinion the
    worst offense by far.)

    When complaints were made against him he has totally ridiculed those
    who complained.

    And now he has gone off and had a nice period of mediation and every
    thing is hunky dory again. So everyone can pretend it didn't happen and
    he can start over with a clean slate.

    A couple of points worry me here.

    First are we sure that he had only the 2 victims? Or are there others
    out there in the dark, still too afraid to speak up.

    Second, has he really reformed? Well he has proved to be a most
    plausible liar in the past. What is to stop him in the future?
    Obviously the trust of other people is nowhere near enough.

    Somehow the story reminds me of the many ones that I have heard of
    Roman Catholic priests doing remarkably similar things.

    Jamie.
                                                                  

    Jamie,

    He hasn't COME back yet!  The tip of the iceberg has just surfaced
    in the news this month or so.  Damage control was started; but,
    this is a different era in wommankind and might have upset the 
    balance of power in these issues.  Remember this has gone on since
    the year 1977.  I do certainly hope that this enlightened age will
    serve the victims well and that the perpetrator experiences the 
    full responsibility for his long-term actions.  Might be well to 
    have him serve as an example for the future.  What ye sow yet shall
    ye reap!

    justme....jacqui

    Thanks, Jamie for your comments in .131.  I was thinking I was the only
    one having those thoughts...
    
    Along the same lines, I find it most interesting that Krishnapriya, a
    female, is banished, with all traces of her contribution erased, while
    Gurudev, a male, is allowed to go away and "heal", and then, if he
    chooses, return in a reduced capacity, and continue to make further
    contributions, and live happily ever after, with the masses still
    hanging on his every word.
    
    HELLO - WAKE UP CALL...
    
    Well, I'm not surprised.  After all, Jimmy Swaggart still has a
    following, and word is Jim Baker (of PTL fame) is on the way back.
    
    With sincere sadness, and heartfelt prayers for all involved and
    impacted by this,
    
    Bill

    
Jamie (and Jacqui and Bill),

Mostly true.

>    And now he has gone off and had a nice period of mediation and every
>    thing is hunky dory again. So everyone can pretend it didn't happen and
>    he can start over with a clean slate.

No.  He is now banished from Kripalu as well, along with Krishnapriya. There 
are some more personal letters circulating - reactions from residents at both 
Kripalu and the sister counterpart, Sumneytown - that were not posted here. 
It's not a pretty sight.  Due to their highly personal nature, Danielle did 
not believe it was appropriate to post them in a public forum without explicit 
permissions of the authors, and when she forwarded them to me, I agreed.

We can possibly, however, delete the identifying names and post only the 
texts of the letters if you would like to see them, though I'll leave this 
decision to Danielle.

Gurudev (Amrit) can certainly organize and give seminars on his own apart 
from Kripalu, but after all this, I have to wonder just who would attend?

There's no pretending going on here.  As more and more facts come out about
this situation, there are hundreds - maybe thousands - of people now who are 
very convinced that this person is not only not fit to ever be in a position 
of a guru again, but should never be allowed to teach in any forum.  And, along
with the former president of the Hindu organization I worked with on the 
conference in August 1993, we are both *extremely glad* that Gurudev (Amrit)
did not attend, in light of these new developments.  Up to late last week, my 
friend had only seen the Boston Globe article which did not give the details 
of what happened to the two women, and he thought that still it may be just
someone trying to get at Gurudev by discrediting him.  But when I received
the additional information that Danielle posted here, I called him immediately,
explained what he and Krishnapriya had done to the other women, and his
response was identical to mine (being absolutely appalled at what had happened.)

Jacqui, I also don't believe there was damage control going on either.  In 
the first few days, I just think that there was no official information or
verification, and given all things, I feel it's more important to wait for 
the facts than to spread rumors.  That's why I did not mention anything in 
my original posting here...simply because I did not know the facts and only 
heard it secondhand the day before (although it was from a very, very reliable 
source.)

I'm glad that Danielle was able to get the email postings and enter them into
DEJAVU so that they could speak from themselves.  You can't get much closer to 
the situation than Sudhir (Jonathan Foust), now director of Kripalu 
communications, and author of many of the letters posted.  I do not see any 
hint at all of him trying to cover up the situation or engage in damage 
control, though if you do, please point those notes out.  I hope I have not 
    come across that way in this string either.


>    First are we sure that he had only the 2 victims? Or are there others
>    out there in the dark, still too afraid to speak up.

My concern too, and this concern is shared by many.  It has only been two 
weeks since this all broke out, and we may indeed see others step forward in 
the future.


>    Second, has he really reformed? Well he has proved to be a most
>    plausible liar in the past. What is to stop him in the future?
>    Obviously the trust of other people is nowhere near enough.

I don't believe he has 'reformed' for one moment...in fact, I sincerely doubt 
now that he was ever practicing the holy lifestyle he so often spoke of, to
begin with.  As time goes on, you will continue to see more and more (now ex)
disciples speak out on this subject.  There will be a piece being done about 
this whole situation in the next issue of Yoga Journal.

Cindy

    Cindy,

    It is great that this type of organization is putting their skills
    into protecting those who have been wronged.  So often, *most* often,
    it is the other way around.  This group will come out of this with
    a stronger following by showing that victims will be protected and
    that perpetrators *have* to answer for their actions.  It is the 
    way life *should* be.  

    Thanks for your input.

    justme....jacqui

    RE:  .134
    
    Thanks for the comeback, Cindy.  Devastating blow to all who believe.
    
    -Bill
    

    Thanks for straightening things out Cindy.

    Jamie.

    Cindy, 
    	Thanks for your post!  Summarizes my thoughts exactly...
    
    Feel free to post some of the letters (w/out the names)...
    
    Thanks!
    
    :), danielle

First letter...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
This past 2 weeks has certainly been intense.  My intention is to share my
perspective, acknowledging my own filters; which is my own history of
surviving a dysfunctional, addicted, incestuous family.  I intend to speak
from my heart. Forgive me when my emotion overtakes me.  I will do my best to
catch it when I can.  I have been in recovery from 15 years of addiction
since 1982.  I became aware of Kripalu during my 6 week stay in a
rehabilitation center during August and September of 1982.  On the day of my
discharge I went to Summit Station with my wife, [...] year old son, and my
[...] old son.  I met Gurudev and the family on this day.  So Kripalu has been 
a part of my recovery from the beginning.  The first 5 years of recovery were
spent intensively in NA meetings and service work. I was initiated by Gurudev
in October of 1987 and given the name [deleted].  I have attended many
programs, assisted on staff, and was [an officer of...] the Board
of Sumneytown Yoga Fellowship at its inception.  [...]

During the approximately 2 year transition from KYF to SYF I was
heavily involved in seva (meetings and processing), much to the detriment of
my personal business life and my personal family life.  I too believed in
"The Work".  I believed so much in the "higher nature of our work and our
path", that I could not see much of the truth which was happening in my own
life.  My addiction to chemicals, sex, and rock and roll had been replaced
with addictions to NA, work, achievement, "success", Gurudev's approval, KYF's
approval, meditative bliss, tapes, martial arts, diet, Co-dependency  -- you
name it.  Anything except the old addictions of drugs and sex.   It took me
along time to see it.  I am grateful for my time on the board at SYF, for in
that working relationship I began to see myself in a clearer picture.  

I also got a chance to see the "behind the scenes" seva (BUSINESS) of Kripalu 
and Gurudev.  Not happy with what I was seeing, I resigned in February 1991.
The day I resigned I met with Gurudev and others.  I spoke directly to the
issues of my concern, my personal liabilities, and behaviors and actions on
the part of KYF and Gurudev that were not in alignment with what I perceived
to be the guiding principles of Yoga and Recovery.  That is, rigorous
honesty, and practicing the principles in ALL of my affairs.  This is the only
way I have maintained my recovery.  I am no angel.  I struggle with my shadow
and my desires on a daily basis.  However, I stand committed to face my self
and all its beauty and ugliness. I left that meeting with Gurudev and the SYF
board and went straight to a week long codependency treatment week. In
hindsight it was a good decision.

From where I sit I do not see Gurudev as in alignment with the Yamas and
Nyamas.  Perhaps he never was.  However, the man has achieved much in the way
of power, money, real estate, world wide reputation, and adoration.  The
teachings of the Ancients, which may or may not have come through him, are
not his own.  Truth & Principle is attached to no man.  There is no doubt
that this brother has touched my life, and the life of thousands, very
deeply.  It makes me sad to see the truth of the lie of his life.  It calls
into question the very integrity of the foundations of my life, of Kripalu,
of my spiritual choices.  I feel afraid.  I feel betrayed.  I feel outraged.
I feel compassion.  None of these feeling negate the others.  Yet I must
speak.  I will not allow my fear of loss of another family, of another
brother, of being outcast, to stop my voice.  I have a voice and there is
room for it.

This past weekend my wife, a Licensed Psychologist, and I served on staff at
the Sumneytown Disciples Retreat.  I am grateful to the Board Members of SYF
who spoke the truth, who shared what was witnessed in the KYF Board meeting
with Yogi Desai.  It was difficult for most of the 40 or so dear brothers and
sisters who came home to hear what was happening, to seek comfort in a place
with so many deep meanings.  It was no less than traumatic for many.  
As I spoke my position and indicated how the events and behaviors of Gurudev
mirror a dysfunctional family, it became even more traumatic for survivors of
such a childhood in their family of origin.  We call Bapuji, Beloved
Grandfather,  - we may not call Gurudev "FATHER", however he is precisely
that.  The founder of Kripalu, the family.  The creator of money for food,
shelter, clothing,  Love, and attention.  We were implored to "hold on to the
feet of the Guru", many of us did so literally and metaphorically.  We looked
to him as the ideal Father/Mother/Parent.  Talking to us of Unconditional
Love, feeling the Shakti of his touch, we became as he often said 'as
children'. Children trust their parent(s) to feed them and protect them.
When a parent tells a child that it is ok for them to touch them in a sexual
manner because they are special, and that having sex with them is ok, but to
never tell anyone because they won't understand -  is the text book example
of incest and manipulation.  The victims in the 2 cases we know about may
have been physically 'adults', however, I would venture to argue that
spiritually and emotionally they were 'children', hence victims of sexual
abuse.  The patterns which followed, the actions of Gurudev and Krishnapriya,
the intentional destruction of a family, a relationship between mother and
son, Husband and Wife, the actions of all those who maintained silence out of
fear of being outcast, all of us who choose not to see this for what it
really is, are accountable and responsible.

I witnessed this past weekend the devastation to the women who came forward
to be in a group of sexual abuse survivors facilitated by my wife and myself.
It was heartbreaking.  Some of these women may well NEVER open themselves to
a man again. One women said that Gurudev was the first man she trusted again
after 14 years of therapy.  Some women were totally retraumatized by the
reawakening of their own memories. Tears and screams were throughout the
room.   More than one person was realizing for the first time that they have
had similar experiences.  The psychological consequences of this is serious
and survivors need to get professional help if in trouble.
There was much rage in the bodies of the men and women in that room.  We did
work to discharge some of that rage.  Under the rage are our broken hearts.
The rage becomes the armour of the heart, the protection from the pain and
grief.  

I heard that the rage at Shadowbrook was so intense that people were smashing
Gurudev's pictures with machetes, leaving broken glass all over the place!!
We're the pictures taken down to save them??  Perhaps it was in the best
interest of Gurudev's personal safety that he left so quickly. Gurudev's
letter of resignation states "I will be taking some time for self-reflection
and sadhana."    Let me share this scene with you : The Meditation Room at
Sumneytown is filled with heartbroken, crying, screaming, disciples, people
have spent the day ready to vomit - and Sumneytown Board Member receives a
phone call. The next morning, the Board member comes to the meditation room,
session in progress, and calls out one of the program assistants for a
conference call- A conference call with Vivekananda, on behalf of Gurudev.
The subject of the call: a developer and Gurudev are in serious negotiations
for the water rights at Sumneytown.  Price: to my knowledge, $1,000,000 to
$1,500,000.  Deep self reflection, deep shadana.

As I see it, (name deleted)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Dear [name deleted],

I assume that you have read [name deleted's] letter.  The last few
sentences re: water rights was intriging.  I did a little research and
found out that Gurudev and the developer had been in dialog, that the
dialog pre-existed the events at Shadowbrook, that it involved property
below the Ashram, and that Gurudev and Sumneytown decided not to do it.
Source:  Shantipriya.  If you were like me, you may have thought the
sale of Sumneytown was being considered.  You may want to share this
with our brothers and sisters. 

Jai Bhagwan,


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

ADDITIONAL TO FIRST NOTE:

RE: comments/rumor control.

I have just spoken to Shantipriya directly.  She has asked me to pass on the
following. 

Sumneytown has recommended to Vivekananda, to pass on to Gurudev, that
Sumneytown does not feel it is in Sumneytown's best interest to sell the
water rights to the Sumneytown Property to a developer for use in anathor
development project.  Shantipriya is not aware of a decision by Gurudev 
either way.  Shantipriya is also not aware of any current negotiations 
between Gurudev and anyone interested in buying the property.
This is more accurate than saying that Sumneytown and Gurudev have decided
not to sell the water rights.  The final decision in such a matter is the
property owner: Yogi Amrit Desai [Gurudev].

Love, [name deleted]

Another letter...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Dear Family-

 It is truly amazing to me the perfection of life.  I returned home here in
Cleveland, late last Sunday nite- from spending the last 7 days at  Kripalu
(preceded by 3 days in Albany).  I was taking part in the LIT sponsor's
Gathering as well as initial  coping/healing process at Shadowbrook during
this powerfully transformational time.

 I arrived about 10:00 pm  Sunday nite (Oct.30).  Gurudev /Amrit (if that is
more appropriate for you) had spoken to the family that afternoon.  I can
only give second hand accounts of that event so I will keep it brief.
Gurudev came in with 2 of his children to a mixture of  "Jai Gurudev's" &
cursing.  He spoke briefly , admitting , apologizing & remorseful of the pain
he had caused to so many - not making any eye contact .  He left amid the
same response as when he entered.

 By the time I arrived, it was quiet- but most of the lights were blazing
through the dark nite.   The pictures of Gurudev already  being taken  down
in the hallways and alters.   Some pictures in  frames were smashed and his
chair from the main chapel ( at some point in time- this may have happen on
Saturday.) was broken-  but this type of response was on a very small scale.

 There was much  anger and pain- the full spectrum of human emotions were
swirling through the building .  Monday morning seva went on.   One brother
asked me if I was in the love him or lynch him camp -as we began a
conversation.  There seemed to be free movement between the camp as one
moment a person was enraged- and the next calm and forgiving. Everyone had
feelings of high intensity( as far as I could tell) & supported one another
through the process of just feeling what was present at any given time.

 Shifting from a full range of emotions through the day.  Guests were
attended to - operations intact.  To my knowledge there where only a few
guests who decided to leave due to what was going on.  But the honesty,
support, integrity   that was coming forth was beautiful- helping to create
comfort and safety in community- where individually little existed.

 Monday nite kirtan was attended by few.  Two sisters lead Guru mantra, a Ram
chant & a divine mother chant.  Arti was done for Dadaji, Bapuji  &
Gurudev(though has chair was empty of picture an the cushion held no
sandals). Being the bhakti baby that I am , this was particularly painful and
made it all very real- Gurudev, the man, was gone.  Yet I knew somehow that
it was ok- this was just the next thing- a big thing- my plate felt very full
indeed. 

 Mother Nature, not to be outdone,  reflecting the torrents of  human
feelings, was turbulent, gray, dark skies, rain, high winds moaning, and
lashing against the building(not til Wednesday did the sun begin to appear).

 Shiva arti continued at 6:00 am in the resident chapel.  Gurudev's picture
was brought out from storage and set on a small table net to the alter.
Pranams were offered .  Soft almost inaudible 'jai Gurudev's" were heard at
the beginning of the week but got a bit louder each day.

 Thursday nite there was a fire ceremony.  The auditorium was filled, and a
Kali chant stirred our souls.   Many types of offerings were made - some of
rice, and paper.  I saw one brother, standing tall and strong, ceremonially
rip up his pictures of Gurudev and give them up to the fire.  I saw 3 other
people toss in mala beads.  Cries & screams mixed in the chanting as we all
just felt - openly - honestly just allowing the feelings to come .

 So there we all were- just holding the posture- not coming out to soon which
would cheat us of the full benefits - just holding the posture- not knowing
how long the holding would /will be- standing solid  in the unknown-  and
feeling , taking in fully whatever came next. not avoiding- not suppressing,
sometimes expressing but always feeling and taking it all in. 

 So, how am I feeling now?- It's interesting that this summer as I was
getting more involved in sadhana- I felt the need to put Gurudev & Bapuji's
pictures away.  I needed some distance- there was a falling away of what I
had been thinking my Guru-disciple relationship was all about- so for
whatever  the reason, I had already begun my process in severing  my old
mode.  I feel deep sadness around  the deception yet there is a  very strong
feeling of my own power, my own worth- I feel more solid in myself than ever
before and at the same time feel less sure about my future than ever before.
 I feel more open to life than ever before- I never want to shut down again-
I want to stay open- taking in fully everything that comes.. I feel blessed,
vulnerable & grounded .  I have felt more deep pain and more love in the last
week than I have in my entire life. I feel as though I am just beginning to
live.
      I am so thankful for this family- where is space to be me- and space
for for  each one to be in the feelings and know that support and  compassion
 surround us all. 

 love- (name deleted)

So why hasn't this bloke been locked up, and not left to run free, "healing" 
himself?  If anyone else in this world commits such odious (sp?) crimes, they 
are looked upon as being deviants, and are punished.  Admittedly, I don't know 
the whole story, but it looks as if this guy is likely to receive sympathy 
rather than apathy.

    
    I'm not an expert in law, however I don't believe any criminal charges 
    have been brought against him.  Such charges are necessary to lock up a
    person.  In the strict sense of the law, I don't believe he has committed 
    any crimes (outright rape, embezzlement, etc.) that he can be charged 
    with (though one could, I suppose, argue for a rape charge, given the 
    circumstances).
    
    Morally, however, his actions are both appalling and reprehensible,
    and I hope that the women involved will be able to at least collect (or 
    sue, if necessary) for personal damages (defamation of character, and so 
    on).  He has already stated that he will financially compensate the
    women, though no details have been released on this yet that I know of.
    
    As for sympathy...you might want to reread the notes in detail in this
    string, for that is not what I see.  Initially - before the latest
    information was released - yes, it looked like it might be going in
    that direction.  But when information about what he and Krishnapriya
    did to that woman came out, the tide turned completely.
    
    Cindy

    I've been scanning this note for the past few days. When taken at a
    fast narrative pace the swirling swings of the peoples' involved
    emotions from event to event is amazing. A center designed to bring
    people inner peace ending up leaving its members emotionally raped.
    It says a lot about allowing anyone other than yourself to guide your
    life. 
    
    Will

    
    Having been through a very abrupt divorce where I literally did not
    see it coming, I can relate to a lot of the emotions expressed from
    this perspective.  
    
    Of course you should be your own guru in the end.  I don't think that 
    anyone is saying you shouldn't.   But there's also a certain level of 
    trust that goes with forming close relationships of any kind (parent/
    child, husband/wife, friend/friend, guru/disciple).  The people trusted 
    him. Is that wrong?  I really don't think so.   This is why.......
    
    I realize you are only seeing a fraction of insight into the situation, 
    however Gurudev (Amrit) was - up to this time - one of the most highly 
    respected, beloved, and well thought of spiritual teachers living today. 
    Kripalu-trained Yoga teachers and body workers are some of the best and
    most highly regarded professionals in the fields of yoga and body working.  
    Also, Kripalu Center in Lenox is home to over 300 full-time onsight
    residents, with an estimated 12,000 guests staying there each year. Up
    to this point, there was not even a *hint* of scandal going on.  So
    to go from this, to finding out what terrible things were going on behind 
    the scenes, is an incredible shock, and these shock waves are being felt 
    literally all around the world.
    
    Given all this, then when trust is betrayed especially at such a deep 
    fundamental level, coupled with the immediate departure of that person 
    from the lives of so many, it is bound to cause these kinds of emotions 
    to some degree, even in the strongest and most independent of people. 
    Added to all this the pressure that the residents are under of trying
    to do their jobs at the Centers, being questioned and scrutinized by 
    the press and the guests, along with dealing with their own feelings, 
    well, I have to give them my admiration because I doubt I'd stand up as 
    well under such difficult circumstances.
    
    Surely if you had an extremely close friend that you had known for many
    years of your life, built up a trusting relationship with, and spent
    large amounts of time with, then if you found out your friend had done
    something like this to others, and left your life abruptly, it is
    important to ask yourself, how would you feel?  
    
    Cindy
                                              

I would feel stupid, for not knowing them as well as I'd thought.  Don't forget 
that many people virtually gave their lives over to this guy, putting all their 
beliefs in him and his principles.  You don't do that with a friend.  A friend 
is treated as an acquaintance, whereas this is more of a "worship" issue.  I 
feel sorry for the people who trusted in his beliefs and teachings, as they 
must now surely be questioning his credibility, and asking whether it's still 
alright to live their lives according to the teachings of a child molester and 
rapist (alledgedly).

    RE:  .144
    
    Well put, Cindy.  The community was blindsided because they weren't
    looking, didn't want to look, or denied when they did see.  It is 
    common to get caught up in all of anything.  The beauty of such rose
    colored vision is that sooner or later it all comes crashing down.  And
    that can be good.
    
    Life is a teacher, as we all know.  Some lessons are hard, some are
    easy.  Betrayal, IMHO, is one of the hardest lessons of all to learn
    from.
    
    One of the lessons the community will learn as they continue to
    process this trauma is that the philosophy is true, and each's choice
    to follow it was/is right for each.  The problem is it involves human
    beings.  As such, trust in the philosophy, but keep an eye wide open
    on your brother/sister.  Perfection does not exist here in this plane.
    While we may visit other planes, for now, we reside here, and when we
    return from our visits, we must remember that.  In doing so, there will
    be no more blindsides.
    
    I wish the members of the community well, and pray they remain open to 
    the tremendous opportunity each has to grow from this tragedy.  And, I
    believe they will learn and prosper (spiritually).  I also continue to
    pray for all the principals in this tragedy as well.
    
    Thanks for the continued updates, Cindy.  I learn much from your notes.
    
    Peace,
    
    Bill       

    RE: .146 Bill

    Yes.

>    The beauty of such rose
>    colored vision is that sooner or later it all comes crashing down.  And
>    that can be good.

    Former Siddha Yoga folk refer to this as "The Santa Claus Guru".  One
    can either retrench and grow cynical or grow.  What's life for, anyway?

    Perhaps the guru became more to the disciples that he should have.
    It happens.  I've been there :-}  And a kind and loving universe
    has caused it to discontinue.

>    Perfection does not exist here in this plane.

    I'm afraid I must disagree.  I believe it is all divine, nothing more
    than another.  Gurudev's actions will cause great growth and a 
    deepening of understanding for many.  Painful?  Yes.  But, what's
    life for, anyway?

    IMHO those in the middle of this are the lucky ones.  The cynics
    on the sidelines won't learn anything and growth is stunted.

    Tom

    "Do not search for truth.  Simply cease to hold onto opinion."

I don't call being sexually abused "lucky".  I'd rather be cynical than utterly 
naiive.  Everybody's entitled to an opinion, and therefore everyone's entitled 
to argue.  Learning can be done by other means than a number of peoples' lives 
being damaged almost irreperably.  Many people who have laid trust in this 
person will find it hard to trust someone so unconditionally again, in case 
this trust is once again abused.

Re.145

>Don't forget that many people virtually gave their lives over to this guy, 
>putting all their beliefs in him and his principles.  You don't do that 
>with a friend. A friend is treated as an acquaintance, whereas this is more 
>of a "worship" issue. 

I probably should have stayed with the marriage/divorce scenario, since it 
is probably much closer to the situation than a friendship, unless the 
friendship is a very close and deep one.  It happens that I am fortunate 
enough to have a mutual friendship like this with someone, however it is not 
the norm for most people.

Back to the divorce - I did not 'worship' my ex.  However, I did give my life 
over to the 'relationship' (just as so many did at Kripalu), whereas my ex - 
as I know now - did not (just as Amrit did not hold up his end of the 
committment to his disciples - it goes both ways).  Then when the relationship
was abruptly cut short, the feelings of my betrayed trust ran just as deep as 
many are feeling in the Kripalu situation.  It took a long time come to terms
with it.

I would hesitate to use the word 'worship' to describe what was going on at
Kripalu in any case...  I can see how, living in the West, you might view it 
that way.  But it's really not that.  Amrit never encouraged worship of 
himself alone.  As for 'bowing', it is both an Eastern gesture of respect and 
a symbolic tradition that signifies putting one's head (or intellect) below 
one's heart (or love).  The majority of the time, when disciples bow to the 
guru, the guru also bows to their guru, who bows to their guru, and so on up 
to God/dess or Infinity.  Such was the case when there was a darshan (spiritual
gathering) where Amrit was present.  He would enter, then we would all bow 
(those who chose to) - including him - and chant the ancient prayer, "Bolo 
Shri Sadguru..."


>I feel sorry for the people who trusted in his beliefs and teachings, as they 
>must now surely be questioning his credibility, and asking whether it's still 
>alright to live their lives according to the teachings 

The teachings themselves are good and true, and they really do work when put 
into practice in life.  The main problem here is that Amrit (Gurudev) did not
do the latter in his own life, hence it is now falling apart.

Couple of things...

Those people who put the teachings into practice in their lives because their
guru told them to (the rule followers) are probably having the toughest time
right now.  Especially the teaching around brahmacharya (or 'celibacy', loosely
translated).  Nothing is worse than hypocrisy when it comes to example-setting.

On the other hand, if a person decided to put the teachings into practice
because they made a lot of sense and resonated with their inner being, then 
these people are probably not having as difficult a time of it right now.  
(I happen to fit into this latter category.)

Lastly, the majority of teachings are not, and never were, his own.  His gift
was the ability to take the ancient teachings, apply them to the Western way 
of living, and present them in such a way that they were easy to understand
and put into practice.  The sad part is that many who do not realize this -
and many do not - will associate him with the teachings and denounce/abandon 
both.


>of a child molester and rapist (alledgedly).

That may be a bit harsh since on this plane, the women were over 18.  Still
though, from another perspective, they can be viewed spiritually as children 
and were indeed 'used' by him...not to mention the defamation of character
and alienation of family that followed (as Jamie said, probably the worst 
thing to happen out of everything).


Re.147

>Learning can be done by other means than a number of peoples' lives 
>being damaged almost irreperably.  Many people who have laid trust in this 
>person will find it hard to trust someone so unconditionally again, in case 
>this trust is once again abused.

I agree with this completely.  

There was a time I used to believe in the 'No Pain, No Gain' approach to 
growth.  That difficult times and mean people 'made you stronger'.  Etc.

But then I looked back over my life and realized that the greatest growth
situations did not come from the people who deliberately made my life
difficult and betrayed my trust.  Quite the opposite, in fact.

Once I looked beyond those people, I saw an entire set of other people - 
the ones who had always been there, quietly supporting, encouraging, loving.  
The ones who, when I fell (or deliberately pushed), would come, heal the 
wounds, make it clear in their own subtle ways that I was valued, cherished, 
and loved, and would send me on again.  

Back to Kripalu - Amrit (Gurudev) gave the impression that he was in the 
latter set of people, and he kept up a great act too.  But in the end, he 
really was in the former set all along, for countless people.  And given that 
the guru/disciple relationship is only one step away from a relationship with 
God directly, what he did is just a terrible, horrible thing.  

If anything good comes out of this, it will be the brothers and sisters
coming to each other to support each other through this crisis and betrayal,
for then those who are in the greatest need of support will at last find 
people who are *truly* in the latter category, and not just pretending to be.

Cindy

    
    Re.146
    
    Thank you, Bill.  
    
    I don't know about the rose-colored glasses though...somehow I'd like
    to think that ultimately the world really is like that - surrounded
    with the rose color of Love.
    
    What comes crashing down is the pretense of Love...not the Love itself. 
    And when the pretenses come crashing down, then ultimately the perfection
    of Love on this plane will be revealed for all to see and enjoy.  It 
    comes peeking out in small corners here and there...and it's up to us to
    nurture it and encourage its growth.
    
    Cindy                               

    Well Tom, I would rather have a healthy cynicism than be an apologist
    for some one who blatantly misused his power and authority to get sex
    from unwilling partners. I really do not understand how you can
    apparently condone such acts.

    Jamie.

    I do not condone what he did.  I do not apologize for what he did.
    What he did was wrong.

    The people in the middle of Kripula who are going through this 
    turmoil are/have grown immensely.

    You can embrace life or you can sit on the sidelines.  You should
    try not to do stupid things but if you don't take any risks you
    cannot grow.  To not grow is similar to being dead.

    Tom

    Sorry Tom, I just sort of took offense to you passing it off as a
    learning experience. I have only really known one woman who had been
    sexually abused in a similar manner. Her learning experience was to be
    left in such a state that she could not remain in a room alone with a
    male.

    As for your analogy of not growing being akin to being dead. Well I
    have come very very close to being dead and I can assure you that you
    have no idea what you are talking about.

    Jamie.

    Until you can look into another man's heart and know him
    it is senseless to guess that you know his exerperience
    or have an idea what it is to walk in his shoes.

    You have had profound experiences.  I accept and honor that.
    Please do not deny that I, too, have lived.

    "When life throws a knife at you, there are 2 ways of catching
    it.  By the blade or by the handle."

    The staff at Kripula have found, in a profound way, that you
    can deal with the media in an open and honest way.  This is
    a lesson not easily learned, and to their credit, the staff
    took a chance.  Please do not discount their experience as
    a simple "learning experience".  This is not the only growth
    that has taken place.

    It has been my experience that materialists have had no 
    inclination to seriously entertain the wisdom revealed by
    spiritualists.  If you are a materialist I have little 
    hope of getting you to look at something in a different light.

    Tom

    ...

>    It has been my experience that materialists have had no 
>    inclination to seriously entertain the wisdom revealed by
>    spiritualists.  If you are a materialist I have little 
>    hope of getting you to look at something in a different light.

    Tom,

    Thou art contradicting thyself in the above first line.  Also,
    thou can only have hope of getting thyself to look at something
    in a different light.  

    justme....jacqui

    p.s.  In order to change something, thou has to change thyself.

>    p.s.  In order to change something, thou has to change thyself.

    "The first step toward truth is a willingness to accept that
    you may be wrong."

    I hope to be proven wrong.

    Tom

    >I hope to be proven wrong.
    
    You often have been in the past.
    
    Jamie.

    It would be very nice if everyone in this file participates with love and
    light or else follows what my grandmother and mother used to say, "If
    you can't say something nice [about someone], don't say anything at
    all."
    
    This bickering and sniping -- "I'm right and you're wrong" stuff -- is
    childish, boring, annoying, and serves no loving purpose.
    
    Every one of us has things to learn and to teach in this file.
    
    *Stella*
    

    >"If you can't say something nice [about someone], don't say anything
    >at all." 

    But when you do that people can get away with all sorts of things. 

    For example Gurus can seduce their followers and no one will say
    anything about it, because it is not nice.

    Jamie.

    
    Re.last few
    
    I'll add here about Amrit/Gurudev that I hope the women and son take him
    to court for defamation of character at *minimum*.
    
    AND, it would be *really nice* if we could ALL avoid using broadsweeping 
    generalizations and comparisons in this file, such as:
    
    	 spiritualist = broadminded or naive gullible flakes 
    verses                                                        
         materialist = closed-minded or practical, rational, sane, and logical
    
    I believe this is what Susan was getting at.  Surely we can all work 
    harder to find some common ground and work from that point of view, 
    since the other way usually solves nothing, perpetuates the chasm
    between the two 'sides' that exists and only creates hard feelings.
    
    Cindy