Conference hydra::dejavu

1350.0. "Food For Thought: Beliefs, Intent, and Knowing." by REGENT::WAGNER () Tue Sep 04 1990 13:41

I collected my thoughts and references on beliefs, intentions and knowing.

If one merely believes in something, He brings along with that belief, an 
underlying doubt.  To believe that someone can achieve or attain something, an 
exterior goal, a personal change, one must also entertain some doubt that 
the goal can be reached.  Doubts tend to expand, so greatly, that they 
overwelm the belief that we can attain what we set out to achieve.  It is a 
function of the "abundant Universe."  What we have expands.  When we simply 
believe something, The doubts are many, the goal is yet to be reached.  Since 
in believing, it is doubts, not the goal that we posess, then the doubts are 
what expand in our consciuosness, not the goal.
	All the masters talked about knowing or experiencing. Jesus talked 
about "knowing" the Father (Cosmic Consciousness), don Juan (Carlos Castenada) 
talked about "will and intent"; Buddha talked about "experiencing," which is 
the most intimate manner of knowing.
	Jesus referred to believing as "after the fact." Jesus talked about 
believing to his disciples in reference to them seeing him and his 
accomplishments but yet not accepting. In other words, as Ouspensky stated, 
true believing, comes only after knowing. In "knowing," there is no doubt, so 
the only thing that can expand is your knowledge of your goal, since the 
abundant Universe expands what you already have.  Since knowledge includes 
experience, your goal will be expanding(becoming more concrete), not your 
doubts.

From "You Can Have It All," Arnold Patent, p127:

	"Our thoughts (beliefs) attract additonal thoughts that are consistent 
with them.  for example, Yo are scheduled for a job interview, as an executive 
secretary, you are concerned about the interview.   The following thoughts 
cross your mind. 'I will appear nervous.  I will not type as well as I can 
because of the pressure of being judged.  Other Applicants wil have more 
skills, or present themselves better at their interview.'"

See how, the doubts, being more "real" than the goal, will be expanded upon 
until the innumerous amount of doubt(failure) becomes the reality instead of 
the DESIRED goal.
	Beliefs are equivalent to opinions, and views.  As along as there is 
attachment to beliefs, there is attachment to opinions, views and doubts 
and the truth will never be experienced.  The truth can only be experienced, 
never discussed.
	As stated in the "Experience of Insight:"
	"The Buddha did not teach Buddhism, he taught the Dharma.  He did not 
teach a set of beliefs or dogmas, or systems that have arbitrarily to be 
accepted.  Through his own experience of enlightnement, he pointed the way for 
each of us to experience the truth within ourselves.  During his 45 years of 
his teaching, he used many different works and concepts to POINT to the 
truth, the words or concepts are not the truth itself; They are only pointing 
to a certain kind of experience."
	Likewise, Jesus did not teach Christianity; He too, taught the 
Dharma.  Neither did Jesus teach a set of beliefs.  Jesus, through his own 
experience of enlightenment, attempted to teach his disciples the way to 
experience truth within themselves. Jesus knew that "believing was inadequate 
in an of itself; "Verily I say of you, Except ye be converted and become as 
little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.  Whosoever 
shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom 
of Heaven." (Matthew 18:3-4). The child at age three or four, in separating 
from his or her mother, has no beliefs about his/her external world. In setting 
out to explore and learn about his/her environment, He/she accepts 
unquestioningly, what ever is out there. As adults we learned to become 
apprehensive of what we presume is childlike naivete. But what we confuse, as 
adults, as the naivete of a child, is the process of knowing without beliefs, 
prejudgements, or doubts.

From the "Experience of Insight" P159:
	"The Buddha advised "believe nothing merely because you have been told 
it, or because it is traditional, or because you yourself imagined it.  Do not 
believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher.  
But what ever way,  by thorough examination, you find to be the one leading to 
good and happiness for all creatures, that path follow like the moon follows 
the path of the stars."

Page 157:
	"When the Dharma is deeply understood, it becomes clear that the 
essence of all practices leading to freedom is the same; that is, developing a 
mind that does not cling to anything at all. No preferences. No distinctions, 
No judgements, No clinging.  No condemning.  The practice is the same whether 
it is expressed through the Sixth Patriarch of China or the Indian Siddhartha 
Gotama."
	
From the "Power of Silence," Carlos casteneda, P180:

"OUr difficulty with this simple progression, he said, is that most of us are 
unwilling to accept that we need so little to get on with. We are geared to 
accept instruction, teaching, guides, masters.  And when we are told we need 
no one, we don't believe it.  we become nervous, then distrustful and finally 
angry and disappointed.  If we need help, it is not in methods, but emphasis."

	Notice what the goal of every path is: All Paths? No paths?  It's all 
the same when approached with the right "emphasis."  No preferences, no 
distinctions, no clinging, no condemning.  If a belief exists, then it is 
comprised of elements of: preferences, distinctions, clinging, and condemning.

On Page 240 (don Juan devotes an entire 2 chapters on INTENT:

"I asked him to explain again what unbending intent was.  He said that it was a 
sort of single mindedness human beings exhibit; a well defined purpose not 
countermanded by conflicting interests or desires.... Sorcerers use unbending 
intent as the catalyst to trigger their unchangeable decisions or as the 
converse: their unchangeable decisions were the catalyst that..."

ON Page 245:

	"The third point of reference is freedom of perception, it is intent;  
it is spirit;  The sumersault of thought into the miraculuos; The act of 
reaching beyond our boundaries and touching the inconceivable."
	
	Don Juan's use of intent is similar to Jesus use of the word
"knowing." When you can intend something to be, there are no doubts and 
since there are no doubts, beliefs are not the precursor of knowing,

From "You Can Have It All" by Arnold Patent, P127:

	"To win any game requires a clear understanding of the rules.  It also 
requires a clear INTENTION to win.... 
	Once you agree with the rules and have chosen to play the game, the 
results you achieve are then dependent on you intention to succeed. ...If your 
intention is to suceed in the new game immediately, you will receive the 
result.  Winning the game right from the start is possible because the 
Universe will acknowledge your intention immediately and will give you such 
generous support that the quality of your life will improve dramatically."
_______________________________________________________________________________

So If you have been following a given path for a lengthly amount of time and 
haven't arrived, Perhaps your belief in the path is what is keeping you from 
arriving at the goal. Eliminate your beliefs about your path and you will
arrive at your goal. It is not necessary to give up your path, for all paths 
are the same if attended to with the right emphasis: No preferences, No 
distinctions, no clinging, No condemning.

Now for the most subtle beliefs of them all:

Excerpt from "Myth of Freedom" by Choygam Trungpa, p77

On giving up the "watcher," that part of us which monitors our "success" or 
"failure."

"If we give up the watcher, then we have nothing left for which to survive, 
nothing left for which to continue.  We give up hope of holding onto 
something. That is a very big step toward true ascetism.  you have to give up 
the quesioner and the answer-that is- the discursive mind, the checking 
mechanism that tells you whether you are doing well or not doing well. "I am 
this, I am that." Am I doing all right, Am I meditating correctly, am I 
studying well? Am I getting somewhere?"  If we give all this up then how do we 
know if we are advancing  in spiritual practice.  Quite possibly there is no 
such thing as Spiritual Practice, except stepping out of self-deception, 
stopping our struggle to get hold of spiritual states(belief in Spiritual 
States E.W.).  Just give that up. Other than that, there is no spirituality."


Ernie
                                     

    Ernie,
    
    Thank you *so* much for entering the basenote.  Lately I've been
    feeling exactly the way you mentioned...working on things in the same 
    way for a lengthy amount of time, and seeming to go nowhere.  Growing
    up a strict set of boundaries was imposed, and over the years I've
    learned to enforce them on myself.  Just by reading your note, I
    realize just *how much* I've been doing that.  And whenever there is a
    natural pause in my learning curve, I can't just relax with it, rather
    I get nervous and focus on "what am I doing wrong...why can't I do this
    any faster?", which seems to be just what the quotes recommend against. 
    I need to reread your note (many times) to really begin to absorb the
    message.
    
    It seems your 'food for thought' was just that....and just what I
    needed today.
    
    Nancy

    
    Ernie,
    
    Another hearty thank you for writing that.  You put into words what
    I realized over the weekend I've been struggling with for some time
    now.  I was having a very hard time encapsulating the whole idea into
    something understandable by anyone.....thanks!!
    
    guy

  Since there seems to be a lot of debate in the magic circles note about
  peoples beliefs, I thought I'd continue the subject here.

  I am an engineer in Boxboro, MA and have always been a sort of seeing is
  believing person.  I think what I like about this conference is hearing
  about other peoples experiences which encourages me to explore new ideas
  more.  I think those of us who need to see to believe probably haven't 
  had any psychic experiences to allow us to believe without seeing.

  I have never really had any mystical experiences, but if I had a
  dream that came true or encountered a ghost I might be able to believe
  without seeing.  I think it is great that other people have had these
  experiences and can share them here.  It has really helped me to grow
  alot spiritually.

  I have come to believe that there is much more to the human spirit than
  ever imagined.  It is exciting to be on the cutting edge of something
  new.  
  
  I am curious why people who adamantly believe in concrete proof and physical
  evidence and do not believe otherwise would care to read and write in the 
  DEJAVU notes file which is about the supernatural and other psychic topics.
  Is it just amusing to see what other people believe or are you curious 
  about unexplained phenomena?

  Keep those notes coming!

  Karin
  
    

    re: .3 (Karin)
    
         ...fair thoughts!
    
         I suspect lots of reasons beyond what you suggested.  Lots of
    opportunities in DEJAVU for individuals' negative egos.  For example,
    if you can't beat people up, figuratively or literally, at DIGITAL
    for having certain religious beliefs, lifestyles, skin color, etc.,
    etc....for this would be "non-PC", then this needy individual can
    always mask his/her incredible desire to demonstrate: superiority,
    better than, need to dominate, control, manipulation, etc., etc.
    by entering a usually-peaceful little kingdom called DEJAVU and
    "picking" on people there.  It is easy to pick on people in DEJAVU
    because most people believe that the people there are "different"
    and don't really believe in fighting all that much.  So, the 
    temptation for those who like to bully others is too much to
    overcome and hence they come.  Those within the "community," however,
    eventually see through their sheep's clothing and learn that these
    individuals are either from ORION or else had some real serious
    problems getting through the bed-wetting years.  So, the people
    in the community, being as PC as they are supposed to be, are given
    an opporunity for a lesson in how to disarm a bully without being
    a bully in return.  
         Bullies, out of a tremendous "lacking" in their own childhood,
    adolescence or even grown-up lives, have a massive need to dominate
    and be self-important.  It matters not an iota what anyone else has,
    they will interfere and intrude to get the attention they so 
    desparately seek.  NO price is too great.
         Anyway, this is one idea of mine...
    
    Frederick
     

    I also suspect that some masochistic and paranoid ones come in here
    just to get picked on so they can whine about it.

    Jamie.

    
    In my opinion, some of the skeptics in this forum are here because they
    truly would like to be convinced that there is something to this "hocus
    pocus" stuff, but like someone (Karin?) said, they cannot believe what
    they cannot see and/or are unwilling to use another's experience as
    "proof". What annoys me most is their usual reponses ranging from
    calling people insane to charlatans, rather than limiting their remarks
    to stating their (if any) experiences on the subject and the reasons or
    not why the evidence is insufficient, incorrect, etc.
    
    These are probably the people who would have refused to fund
    Christopher Columbus's trip across the Atlantic, after all, his ships
    were going to fall off the edge of the Earth weren't they? ;^)
    
    
    Marilyn