Conference hydra::dejavu

    
    Nancy,
    
    What you saw sounds like something I saw on PBS from a series called
    "Adventure" (or something like that).  On one show some guys went to
    Bali (an island in the Pacific) and that's where they saw this happen.
    This was only one small segment of the show though.....so it might be
    a different one than you saw.
    
    Other than that, I know nothing about psychic surgeons.
    
    guy

    Re: .1, .2
    
    Thank you, I read all of 202.  As usual, I'm surprised that this note
    has been here for some time, and I'm just hearing about it now.  It
    seems that most people dismiss this as "bunk", but the woman I wrote
    about was very well off, and tried this as a "last resort".  What I
    gathered was uncommon was that she was a well-off American, not a poor
    person from an underdeveloped area.  I just posted this note to get
    feedback, I'm not saying I believe it or disbelieve it.  She never
    mentioned the cost of this treatment.  As many people did in 202, I
    also wonder if thinking something will cure you will make it happen?
    I do believe in the power of positive thinking and *self-healing*, 
    but what about all the other treatments she had that were supposed to
    cure her?  If she truly believed that they would, why didn't they? 
    I tend to agree with all the other noters in 202 who pointed out the
    possible slight-of-hand, hidden cameras, etc., but this woman swore to
    the same story as is reported to be true by these so-called quacks.  
    
    As one person so aptly put it in 202, who knows?  This was just the
    nearest thing to "proof" I've ever come, and wanted to hear other
    opinions.  Have any of you heard any "updates" since '86?  
    
    Craig, you didn't mention what you thought about the program you saw. 
    Did it look "real" to you?  I realize there are many ways to use
    "special effects" to fool the eye, and am open to discussion.  I guess
    my point is that it seemed so real, and the idea was so outlandish, I
    wanted to know if there is any "proof" out there.  According to Matt,
    this woman's story was eerily convincing.  I would be right on the top
    of the list with other skeptics on this, had I not heard this story.
    
    I tend to be a skeptic, but have learned there are many unknown forces
    at work out there (I've even had proof myself).  So if why not one, 
    why not another?
    
    
    Thanks for helping,
    Nancy

    Re .3
    
    Guy, sorry!  I don't know where I came up with Craig!
    
    Nancy
    

    Nancy,
    
    Shirley McClaine writes about a famous Phillipine psychic surgeon
    in her book, Going Within.  Shirley claims to have had this surgeon
    perform the 'surgery' on her several times.  Her description is
    very interesting, but something one would have to see in person to
    come to any real conclusion.
    
    Ro
    

    Re. 5
    
    Thanks Ro, I have that book, and have not read to the end yet, but I
    will!  
    
    Nancy
    

    
    Nancy - 
    
    I'm used to being called all sorts of things, so just let me know
    what you want to call me that I may respond when being referred to! 
    
    :-)
    
    I wasn't sure what to make of what I saw.  I was intrigued.  My first
    thought was that it could easily be done by your average illusionist.
    But like you said, it could have a lot to do with positive thinking.
    I'd like to get a lot more details (like seeing the whole thing in
    person and being able to check out the entire room, etc.) before I
    made a final judgement.
    
    If it *really works* then it's great.  
    
    guy

    I have seen magicians (i.e., prestidigitators) perform procedures
    indistinguishable from those of the psychic surgeons (in terms of
    the physical appearance).  The effect is quite astounding and without
    question a trick.  It looks like the magician is actually reaching into
    the volunteers body.  Probably the best known magician to demonstrate
    this is the Amazing Randi.  (Please note: that a magician can duplicate
    the physical appearance of psychic surgery by trickery does not mean
    that the psychic surgeon is using trickery.  It does, however, demolish
    arguments that "it could not be faked so it must be real" -- especially
    in this case where the conditions under which the magician "does it"
    are actually somewhat more difficult than those under which the surgeon
    "operates".  Magician debunkers frequently claim to have "duplicated"
    ostensibly paranormal phenomena, but in fact to have done so only under
    much "easier" conditions, but, having observed both magicians and films
    of psychic surgeons, I think that the claims of duplication are quite
    fair in this case.)

    The material removed from patients by prominant psychic surgeons has
    been analyzed and found to be other than human tissue: usually sheep
    or monkey organs.  I know of only one case where human tissue was
    found, and in that case the blood types didn't match with the patient
    (the source of the tissue is an interesting question -- let's hope
    it was legitimate surgical cast-off).  In general, the psychic surgeons
    have now discovered a whole bunch of reasons why they have to prevent
    other people from getting a hold of the tissue they remove, so it is
    now rather hard to get any for analysis.

    It is rather hard to get a camera into place to spot what would be
    missed by someone who was present.  I have seen one video, where a
    camera that had supposedly been turned off had in fact been left
    on (accidentally).  It showed quite clearly (if you knew what to look
    for) one prominant psychic surgeon palming a small white pill.  Later,
    during the carefully observed session, he developed an attack of
    "heart palpitations" requiring his wife to rush out and get water
    for him, thereby breaking the security on which the investigation
    was based.  Only after that was he able to produce tissue.  We can only
    speculate that the pill -- which he *did* palm -- was used to produce
    the symptoms, giving his wife the opportunity to get the tissue and
    slip it to him.

    I have seen a number of other film clips where psychic surgeons
    operated in which they did many actions which are suspicious to anyone
    with any knowledge of prestidigitation: subtle movements which seemed
    badly justified but which could have been used to move something to
    or from concealment, careful positioning of the body as if to cut off
    certain sight lines, distracting movements, delaying tactics etc. etc.
    These might have been innocent, but the chances are they were not,
    especially in those cases where there were multiple such actions.  In
    other words -- they acted like prestidigitators.

    There is very little doubt in my mind that most if not all "psychic
    surgery" is faked.  The surgeons may be sincere healers who feel
    that this fakery is necessary to induce the proper level of belief
    and acceptance for them to practice their art.  I don't want to
    judge people from other cultures with other values too harshly.  But
    for me, I don't see why I should trust anyone who goes to elaborate
    lengths to lie to me.

    As for your friend: all sorts of pain, including migraine, is very
    liable to the placebo effect and other psychological factors.  Migraine
    is also often triggered by food sensitivies -- if she changed her
    eating habits, either at the psychic surgeon's suggestion, as a result
    of psychological factors coming from the "treatment", or just
    coincidently, this might also provide an explanation.  And of course,
    there is just coincidence -- people do get better spontaneously
    sometimes.  If her headaches were actually the kind of headache known
    as cluster headaches then they would tend to occur in "batches" with
    long periods of relief between.  Or, of course, the surgeon could have
    been a legitimate healer as well as being a fraudulent psychic surgeon
    (in which case I would recommend finding a healer who doesn't include
    the floor show -- it's likely to be cheaper for the same real service).

					Topher

    
    I believe the world as I know it was designed by a Greater Architect.
    It would not surprise me if someone somehow has broken into His
    toolbox (or perhaps He simply gave a few of the tools away).
    
    -Mark
    

    About ten years ago I attended a Regional meeting of the Association of
    Humanistic Psychology, at the U. of Santa Barbara. I attended a session
    whose name I don't remember, but the discussions were about pain relief
    and "surgery" of the sort referenced in the base note. The presenters,
    among whom was David Bresler, Ph.D., a noted pain researcher from UCLA,
    seemed to regard "Psychic Surgery" as another method to get the
    mind-body interactions operating to assist with ameliorating some
    medical malady. Today, there is a discipline, Psychoneuroimmunology,
    which is seeking to provide a scientific basis for mind-body
    interaction, so that this form of "medication" might be used to help us
    cure our ills.
    
    They also discussed the cultural context of a variety of non-scientific
    medical cures. Presenters and attendees at this session were accepting
    of the notion that in a variety of cultures, especially those not one's
    own, you should expect to encounter forms of medicine that make no
    sense in our cultural context. Acupuncture was this way, less than a
    generation ago. So, though I fully expect that the surgery you cited
    was accompanied by "Sleight of hand" effects, the cultural context, the
    "readiness" of a person to accept a particular form of medical solution
    heavily influences whether the mind-body interactions which ameliorate
    medical conditions will take effect.
    
    Richard

Nancy,

I believe we heal ourselves. I think that psychic surgery was practice by
ancients to assist people in curing themselves. It worked because people
believed the great, powerful, medicine man had removed the dis-ease and
healing was imminent (hmmm western practioners do this all the time and
we believe them too ;') I don't believe anyone has ever reached through
human skin, blood and all, removing anything (my personal opinion here
;') 

I think the way it works today is; these folks travel the country,
setting up in various places (often in peoples homes). The equipment
consists of a table, some towels and sheets, and some plastic bags filled
with animal entrails (or some such thing). Indeed, it is slight of hand
that produces the hidden gore at the right time to show the 'patient' the
evil dis-ease being removed. Do I think Shirley McLaine was duped? I
think it is quite possible (she's human isn't she??? maybe not - what'sit
say in her book about this??? ;') Would anyone who went through it and
was 'cured' *not* be a believer? Of course they would be. Does it work in
all cases? My mother has parkinsons, what do you (anyone) think? If I
took my mother to a psychic surgeon, put her on the table and let her see
the 'poison' being removed, would she walk out standing straight? Would
she make it 24 hours without a re-occurance of the symptoms of
parkinsons?  I'll match whatever wager anyone cares to put on this
(although, getting my mother to go would be the difficult part).
(Actually, I don't think I would put my mother through this, if indeed it
was a last resort thing, and the symptoms occured less than 24 hours
later, what would be left?)

I think it was a vaild healing method at one time, practiced by caring
people with probably fair results. It will not cure anything, but will
aid in self-healing of some things. And, it is definitely not a method
that would work on some illnesses. Also, I believe that, as practiced
today in the US, it is probably a sham. And a good one too. Consider
this: a good surgeon can do ?? maybe 4 or 5 procedures an hour (maybe
more). With good prior planning, houses can be lined up all through a
region (like the northeast). You may get to see 30 or 40 people at each
house at $50 or $60 a session (some more than once, and this is a rare
form of surgery that needs to be performed more than once ;')  Hmmm, some
quick math: 5 people an hour, 6 hours a day, 3 days per site, 6 sites per
region at $60 per session - just over $32,000 (but ya gotta buy some
chicken innards ;') Nice work if your up to it  ;')  :-)

O well. My disclaimer:
This was how I thought today, but things change - don't they?

Jay

    Thanks everyone...
    
    I've always had three distinct categories in my mind...definitely
    believe, definitely don't believe, and undecided.  After having read
    all of your responses I tend towards 'don't believe' on this.  I do
    agree that much of the supposed success of this 'treatment' probably
    exists because people believe in it.  Topher, you made some good points
    relating this to prestidigitation, which I hadn't even thought of. 
    Thinking back over several David Copperfield shows I've seen, he did
    some amazing things too (like making the Statue of Liberty
    'disappear'  %^).  With all the special effects technology out there
    today, I guess anything is 'possible'.
    
    Nancy
    
    P.S. Jay, you finally signed your name!  %^)

RE: .11 (Jay)

>I think that psychic surgery was practice by ancients to assist people in
>curing themselves.

    Jay, do you have any good evidence to support the antiquity of
    these practices?  I'm not challenging but seriously asking.  I have
    not heard of anything but relatively recent reports (last generation).
    Of course the "psychic surgeons" claim to be the bearers (barers? :-)
    of an ancient tradition, but that would be part of the "act".  I
    haven't seen anything that this stuff is "traditional" rather than a
    modern form of "folk" (no put-down intended by this term) healing.
    Up to know I have interpretted this as a way for the healers to
    cash in on and compete with the credibility ("magic") of Western
    style medicine, among those who could not afford the expense of
    going to a "Western" doctor, or were afraid to.  (The breaking out
    of the practice into a wider community is a separate phenomena with
    separate social reasons).  I would be interested, however, in being
    proven wrong.

					Topher

RE: .12 (Nancy)

    >With all the special effects technology out there today, I guess
    >anything is 'possible'.

    This is all very "low tech", the only equipment needed is some kind
    of lubricant (optional for many effects), the materials to be extracted
    and hidden pockets to keep them in.  The rest depends on practical
    knowledge of sleight-of-hand, misdirection and gross human anatomy.

					Topher

reply
.13 Topher

No hard evidence. Just a guess based on a couple of things. One is
stories among Native Americans of Medicine Men, who upon listening to a
'problem' (something other than a medical problem) related to them by a
'patient', would produce the 'problem' as a small animal, say a mouse or
a rat. The animal would appear out of nowhere and releasing the animal
would release the problem.

The other is only slightly similar. The Huichol Indians practice a form
of psychic surgery still in use today. It consists of using a slender
stick with feathers tied to one end of it. The patient is lying down and
the Medicine Person locates the area of the dis-ease. The stick is waved
over the area in a prescribed manner, while prayers are chanted. Then the
Medicine Person uses the stick (which is not hollow) to suck the malady
out of the persons body, into the Medicine Person's mouth. What is spit
out can take many forms; it may resemble mucus, or a small stone or a
dark 'slimey' substance. I've seen this practiced in person. Again, the
opportunity for slight of hand exists.

Both of these are Native American practices. Nothing, to my knowledge,
exists that that more closely resembles this form of psychic surgery as
practiced by the Haitians or Philipinos. I think the basic premise is the
same but the practice varies by cultural influence.

Jay

    My understanding of shamanic healing is that the shaman inserts the
    power object (such as a power stone) into his/her mouth prior to
    sucking it out in order to prevent the disease from entering into 
    his/her body.  The power object absorbs the disease, the shaman spits 
    it out and it is taken to a place away and released in a place where 
    it can do harm.
    
    The object itself is not the disease, rather it has absorbed the
    disease.
    
    One thing to remember about this kind of healing is that it comes from
    cultures that have a very different view of disease (and life, for that
    matter) than our society.  And as mentioned before, the healing rate is 
    similar to that of western medicine for certain classes of illnesses 
    (ie, exclusive of broken bones, etc.).  On the other hand, the healing 
    rate of staying at home is supposedly not much different than that of 
    hospitalization.
    
    Mary     

Interesting Mary. 

The one time I saw it done, the person doing the healing placed nothing
in his mouth. After drawing out the dis-ease, he spit out a small stone.
Actually, he kind of coughed it up and spit it out, as if it had hit the
very back of his throat. It seemed very theatrical to me and I have no
idea of what happened to the ailment that the women had complained of (I
can't even remember what the ailment was, but chronic back problems come
to mind).

As I said, the basic premise is the same, but the practice varies.

Jay

    I saw one of these healing programs where the camerman himself took
     ill (I think it was his appendix) and the Psycic surgen Kneeded
     the area where the man was in pain then allof a sudden he reaches into 
     this guys body and start pulling out gobs of GAWD only nows what it
     was! WHen he was finished there was no marks on the body other than
     where you could see pressure was applied by the psycic surgens hands!
     and there was diffently blood coming from the open area while the
     Surgen operated on the man! 
                Bill-

RE: .18 (Bill-)

    Who diagnosed the problem (appendicitis?)?  On what basis?  Who
    examined him afterward?  What was the result of the post-"surgical"
    examination?  Was an analysis done on the blood and other tissue
    produced?  How did you know the blood was coming from the "open area"
    rather than being applied by the "surgeon" (have you ever seen the
    needle through arm trick performed?)?  Can you definitely rule out
    collusion on the part of the cameraman?  How about the rest of the
    "crew"?

    Don't mean to be "tough", but it is much easier to be "impressive" than
    to be "evidential".

				    Topher

    repl .19> BOY your Tough but I like the questions you rasied. According
    to the show and from the angle they were filming it did appear that the
    stomach area was opened and he did reach (at least it looked like) into 
    the mans Body It was one of those documentary's on various subject of
    the  paranormal and the camerman who was filming segments  of other
     phenomena from around the world took sick and this was if I recall
    in the phillipenes.(sp)  of course theres always the possibility of a 
     set up to add more hype. Yes I've seen the needle threw the arm
     I do it my self (sharp trick ..needles to say ;^)
          Bill-
    

    Hello Topher,
    
    	I don't mean to denigrate your scientific attitude toward this
    topic, although there seems to be an underlying assumption that is not
    necessarily correct; just because a "supernatural" experience
    can be duplicated by ordinary means, it does not necessarily follow that 
    it was done in this manner. This idea was expressed in the "I see by
    the Papers" section of FATE magazine some time ago and was directed at
    CYSCOPS (correct acroynym?) which is the organization set out to debunk
    all "supernatural" events. I believe, as did the article, that this
    underlying assumption in these attempts to debunk, is what makes the
    attacks by the debunkers just as unscientific.  Perhaps it would be
    more scientific for these organizations to undergo a study surrounding
    the reasons why these "supernatural" experiences cannot be duplicated
    under such controlled circumstances. In other words, examining one's
    own methods and procedures concerning their own failures to duplicate
    such experiences would be more scientific that just assuming
    that the experience was created by "sleight of hand."
    
    Never-the-less, some skepticism is required But not so much so
    that the excess also prevents us from being scientific.  Keep up th
    good work.
    
    
    Thanks,
    Ernie
    
    
    
    Ernie

    Topher,
    
    At least one form of "psychic surgery" was practiced in 19th
    century Japan.  People who suffered from toothache would go to
    a dentist (surprise!).  The dentist would reach in with his
    forceps, poke around the painful tooth, and pull out a little,
    wiggling black worm that had been causing all the pain.
    
    An American dentist demonstrated that the worm was stored inside
    the bamboo forceps (!) so that the dentist could squeeze it out
    of its tube into the mouth near the painful tooth, and pluck it up.
    
    Source:  The great-[great-?great-?]grandfather of a friend of mine
    was the first American dentist to enter Japan.  He was the one to
    spot the subterfuge.  He left a diary.
    
    						Ann B.

    Ernie,
    
    I think you should re-read Topher's .8 note.  He does explain in
    it that duplication of effect does not guarantee duplication of
    cause.  (Would that it did.  Working from symptom to problem would
    then be a LOT easier.)
    
    							Ann B.

    Ok Ann, I reread it.  Although Topher allowed the possibility that the
    psychic  surgeon work was valid, he also stated in so many words that
    he believed that the experience was most likely faked.  What I said
    was,in effect, just a note of caution because he did seem to take the
    attitude of a debunker.  I understood what Topher had stated and  
    your paraphrasing his statement does not seem congruent with what I had
    stated; but then again this could be a problem with semantics (or maybe
    I just didn't understand your statement at all (:'>.  )
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ernie

RE: .24 (Ernie)

    (I'm catching up on back replies).

    Ernie, duplication of an effect by trickery definitely does not mean
    that the effect was done by trickery.  Those who make that jump on
    no other basis but the duplication are unjustified.  But if an effect
    *can* be duplicated by "natural means" than that removes our
    justification for taking the effect as evidence of a supernatural or
    paranormal event.

    Frequently, however, claimed duplications are only similar rather than
    the same.  Important details, such as spontaneity or the ability to
    manipulate sight angles, are not, in fact duplicated.  The bearing of
    such demonstrations on the evidential quality of the original effect
    is a legitimate area of debate and discussion.

    In the case of the demonstrations of the "Psychic Surgeons", however,
    the duplications are pretty exact -- if anything they are done under
    more difficult conditions for practicing deception than the originals.
    Not only do the "fake" duplications provide an explanation for the
    overt events in these cases, but they frequently provide explanations
    for seemingly incidental aspects of the events -- what seems like
    random manerisms or rituals could be in fact necessary parts in
    producing the effects.  To someone trained in the techniques of legerdemain
    the less edited films of these events look overwhelmingly like
    performances of professional magicians or "psychic entertainers", with
    the clear use of professional techniques such as distraction and
    control of the viewing angle.  Add that to the fact that none of the
    "extracted" tissue which has been examined could possably have come
    from the patient in question (or any other human being), and I think
    that my evaluation that the psychic surgery effects are almost
    certainly faked in most if not all circumstances is justified.

    There are extraordinary and paranormal events taking place in the
    world, IMHO, but these are not likely to be among them.

				    Topher

    Topher, Thank you for the clarification.  Actually, I agree with you as
    to the probability of fakery.  Whether it is or not  is not important
    to me; what is important is the process we use in arriving at the
    answers.
    
    
    Thanks,
    Ernie