Conference hydra::dejavu

    
    Earl,
    
    You might want to check out "Alchemical Studies" by Jung.  On the other
    hand it may not be what you're looking for...
    
    Jung's idea was that originally these guys started out trying to under-
    stand the substances that they were working with.  Modern chemists have
    found the old alchemical texts to be a bit disappointing for the most
    part.  They just didn't have a lot of different technologies available
    that would have allowed them to understand chemistry to the level that
    we do today.  
    
    In the process of pondering over these "mysterious" substances, they 
    began to "project" their unconscious mind onto these substances - which
    is why there are so many descriptions of substances (in the old texts)
    as having human or even God-like qualities.  The seeming formlessness 
    of the substances (due to lack of conscious, technological terms and 
    understanding) evoked the formless, dualistic nature of the unconscious 
    mind and the Self.
      
    So, to the psychologist, the alchemical texts are a veritable treasure-
    house of material from the unconscious - very useful when one begins to
    speak of archetypes and tries to classify them, etc.
    
    My understanding of the transformative aspects may be limited.  It's
    not always easy to understand Jung.  From what I understand, it
    appeared at first that by "hermetically" sealing substances and some
    other hocus-pocus, that a transformation of the material (say from
    lead to gold) was to occur.  But what they were really were trying
    to say was something about sealing psychic contents in the unconscious
    mind for a time.  Later, those contents arise again into consciousness,
    transforming the individual because the contents themselves have been
    tempered by the fires of the Self.  In order to get those contents to
    submerge in the the first place they must be tricked into doing so -
    something you'll find symbolized in some fairy tales about Jinnis
    in bottles granting wishes and all that - sometimes they make demands
    on the one who finds the bottle, and that is when they must be tricked
    and sealed up again, eventually to emerge as a servant.
    
    How rituals fit in here, I would not know.  Personally, I don't think
    they are necessary.  But for others they might be useful.
    
    guy
    
    
    

    Re .1
    
    Thank you.  Your explanation of Jung's interpretation is much as I
    remembered it.  Unfortunately, what I want to know is not the
    psychoanalytic meaning of the alchemical cookery, but whether or not
    Hermetics really did the cooking.  If they did, did they regard it as
    attempts at material transformation, while the spiritual symbolism
    remained unconscious, or did they do it as a meditative exercise or
    something?  If they did not, what did they do instead?
    
    Earl Wajenberg

Earl,

   I have a book titled _Occult Symboism In Art_ that has a chapter on
   Alchemy.  I think it covered some of the technical aspects of the
   art.  I can't recall the author's name.  If you have trouble getting
   to a copy, let me know.

   Terry

    
    re: .2 (Earl W.)
    
    I knew that wasn't what you wanted, but I couldn't resist doing a
    brain dump - this stuff doesn't come up in conversation too much
    in Vermont. :-)
    
    I've never understood why anyone would undertake a ritual.  I would
    think that it would only be to reinforce the mental stuff - perhaps
    to train the unconscious by an example of sorts.  
    
    I will take a look at the Jung book and see if that sheds any light
    on your question.
    
    guy

    re: .2
    
    I don't know enough about alchemy to answer your questions, so I've
    asked someone who does.  (He prefers not to become involved in on-
    line or off-line discussions of the topic, but in a few minutes time
    gave me quite a bit of information to pass on to you.)
    
    He considers the words "alchemist" and "hermetic" - in the sense you 
    are using them - to be synonomous.  He said that Jung, based on his
    readings of the old Latin texts and on translations of the Chinese
    alchemy texts, considered alchemy always to be symbolic.  He felt
    that Jung's preconceived mind-set was probably a determining factor 
    in the interpretations he formed.
    
    He said that alchemy peaked during the 17th and early 18th centuries,
    and that the scientists of that time did actually - as you would say -
    "...cook stuff in pots..." in their attempts to transmute base elements
    into gold, while simultaneously believinmg that this activity was part
    of a spiritual process.  The most noted alchemist of the day was Elias
    Ashmole, after whom the Ashmolian museum at Oxford is named.  Another
    prominent figure was the Rev. John Dee - and it has been speculated
    that Isaac Newton himself may have dabbled in alchemy.  These renais-
    sance-type alchemists were very unlike the scientists of today.  Most
    of them also practiced astrology, and were greatly influenced by Hermes
    Trismegistus, a legendary Greek who was the supposed author of works on
    astrology, alchemy, and magic.         
    
    The advent of better chemistry, particularly the amalgam process in
    which mercury is used to extract gold from its ore, and the rise of
    19th century materialism, which emphasized a non-spiritual reality,
    contributed to the decline of alchemy.  It remains a fascinating topic
    for study, but an impractical pursuit.  (Of course, even as we speak,
    someone out there somewhere is probably stirring a pot....)
    
    I found it interesting to learn from the dictionary that Hermes Tris-
    megistus was supposed to have invented a magic seal to keep vessels
    airtight - hence the use of "hermetic" to describe an airtight seal.
    
    Virginia
              
                                           
    

    Re .5
    
    Thank you.  That was the kind of answer I was looking for.  (More
    answers of that sort are certainly welcome.  If they conflict on the
    particulars, then of course I have to start sorting things out.  Oh
    well...)
    
    I have heard from historians with an interest in Newton that he DID do
    alchemy, though my impression was that it was more proto-chemistry than
    anything spiritual.  Newton certainly had a spiritual side and wrote
    books of Biblical studies on the strength of it, but I never heard of a
    connection between that and the alchemy.  My knowledge is incomplete,
    of course.
    
    Is the Rev. John Dee mentioned the one who was a sort of court magician
    to Queen Elizabeth I?
    
    Earl Wajenberg

Good Morning,
Alchemists and Hermitics of this century are not so much interested in
the transmutation of base metals and chemicals as they are the transmutation
of the spirit and the physical body to higher vibratory rates.

Some still work with herbology, creating tinctures, infusions and the like
for the health and balance of the physical vehicle. Mostly, they are not 
stirring the "pot" or lighting flames under beakers, but instead are 
vibrating DNA helixes and lighting flames in chakras through toning, mantras, 
meditations, yoga, grid work, elixirs, and devotion to the Divine Aspect of 
themselves, etc.

In Light and Love,
I AM 
Altraea

    
    re: .8 (z)
    
    Thanks.  That seems like a good enough reason for a ritual.  I guess
    I still don't have a need for one though.
    
    guy

re: rituals.

    Joseph Cambell has a thing or two to say about rituals and their
    purpose.  He feels that in older cultures the rituals were more than
    simple inactments of myth.  The participants frequently entered into
    various forms of altered states of consciousness (ie, talking in tongues,
    body movements, etc) for specific purposes and, as he says, they become
    the myth - actually enter into those mythological realms for the purpose
    of having these spiritual experience and gaining knowledge.  Today, he
    feels, that there isn't enough conscious ritual and the result has been
    the creation of unconscious ritual such as gangs and their practices,
    psuedo-satanic rituals, etc.

    FWIW
   
    Terry

    Can someone explain what form of rituals the alchemists indulged in?
    (if that's the right way to refer to them)
    I find it hard to believe that someone like Isaac Newton chanted, or
    recited incantations over a boiling pot, reminds me of the three
    witches in Macbeth, but then, maybe I'm imposing my 20th century
    knowledge and biases on him.
    Another reason why rituals are important, in the religious sense, is
    that old religions rely a lot on oral tradition. If you do not have
    writing to describe how celebrations should be help, rituals preserve
    the tradition.
    On a more secular level, rituals become second nature, I believe that
    part of the attraction of England and other European and Asian
    countries on Americans are their preservation of rituals, however
    outmoded they may really be today.
    
    Just my .02
    
    
    Marilyn

    Sorry, that line in the previous note should read how celebrations
    should be held, not help.
    
    
    Marilyn

    Re: .6, Earl

>    Is the Rev. John Dee mentioned the one who was a sort of court magician
>    to Queen Elizabeth I?

    Yes, that's the one. I have a book 'by' John Dee, I'll try to
    remember to bring in the title (something like "The Heptarchia...").

    For an interesting fictional treatment try 'Aegypt' by John Crowley.
    It is in any case a very good book. Maigickal themes, blending
    of current day reality with medi�val reality, etc.
    
John D.

    
    There are alchemists who engage in the transmutation of the physical
    properties of chemicals and elements still in this very day and age.  
    
    Today they work on converting the elements in nuclear weapons (among
    other things) to inert substances rather than converting lead to gold.  
    
    As the Grateful Dead say, "I used to play for silver, now I play
    for life".
                           
    Mary

    Re.1
    
    Guy,
    
    I was wondering about rituals a few months ago.  So I went to my trusty
    friends who engage in rituals and asked them what it was all about.
    My first question was about another friend who comes home, turns the TV
    on, and I asked whether that was a ritual or not.  Immediately the reply 
    was, "That's not a ritual, that's a rut!" (;^)
    
    I've started practicing my own rituals (lighting a candle to peace on 
    Earth, for example).  Lighting the candle *in and of itself* won't do 
    anything at all for world peace.  However my focused thoughts and good 
    wishes *will* do something (I believe), and lighting the candle is a 
    way I reflect that thought in the physical world.  Now when I see a 
    lit candle, it means something very different - something much greater.
    To you though, you will see it is simply a lit candle.  And that's fine.
    
    Similarly the Christian Eucharest (bread and wine/fluid) is just that -
    bread and wine - unless you view it through the eyes of a
    believer...and even believers have different interpretations of it
    depending upon their backgrounds and beliefs.  I will refrain from 
    giving my own interpretation in this conference (;^), but you get the idea.
    
    Cindy

    Cindy,
    
    I, too, light candles.  I do it to help create focus.  Each time
    I see the candle lit, it triggers in my mind the reason it is lit;
    usually someone special to me, or a prayer for peace, or whatever.
    
    I try to be aware of form devoid of meaning; shadow without substance.
    It is, to me, the difference between rut and ritual.
    
    Richard

    My grandmother used to light a candle every evening.
    
    I never really paid it any mind until now -- cindy's comment about
    it being only a lit candle to some made me think about HOW Grandma
    went about lighting her candle.
    
    There's more than what meets the eye (the unattentive eye)!
    
    tony
    

    re: .6
    
    .5 should have read "Dr.", not "Rev." John Dee.  He's mentioned
    briefly and depicted in the book described below.
    
    "The Illustrated Anthology of Sorcery, Magic and Alchemy" by Emile
    Grillot De Givry and translated from the French by J. Courtenay Locke
    is a fascinating book.  A paperback edition of it was published in 1973
    by arrangement with Causeway Books, NY - it seemms to be part of the "A
    & W Visual Library."  As the introduction states, "...graphic expres-
    sion is at the heart of the occult sciences, and ...the illustrations 
    are clear, natural, and indubitable in contrast to the vagueness and
    wordiness of most of the occult literature."
    
    The section on alchemy is less than forty pages long, but contains for-
    ty-six pictures and three chapters, entitled (I) The Secret Doctrine;
    (II) The Alchemic Material and the Operations of the Work; and (III)
    The Laboratory of the Alchemists and of the Puffers.  Other sections
    also contain information relevant to alchemy - the idea, for example,
    that the universe or cosmos is an immense organic being with inter-
    linked parts.  "That which is above is like that which is below...who-
    ever knows one part of the Macrocosm knows, by analogy, all the parts
    [including] the Micocosm, who is man.  The adept can thus arrive at a
    perception of hidden things not known to the vulgar by the synthetic
    method put at his disposal by the universe itself, and this method
    raises him to such a height of knowledge as makes him almost a god."
    
    There were many alchemists, but apparently only a minority of them were
    "adept" - and therefore in possession of the intellectual and moral
    qualities necessary to attain the "secret" of gold.  Alongside the
    adept were the "...scrambling throng of the uninitiates, who have fail-
    ed utterly to penetrate the secret of the true doctrine and continue
    working on anomalous materials which will never bring them the desired
    results.  These are the false alchemists, who are called Puffers [from
    the noise of the bellows they used to blow up their fires]...modern
    chemistry actually derives from the erratic work of the Puffers [who]
    spent themselves on alien substances condemned by the true adepts...
    but were led by chance into unexpected discoveries...Kunckel [for ex-
    nple] isolated phosphorous and Blaise de Vigenere discovered benzoic
    acid."  As other authors have noted, the adepts often said, "Our gold
    is not their gold."                     
    
    One of the best illustrations is Fig. 354, a 16th century print by 
    Brueghel the Elder, entitled "Interior of a Puffer's Laboratory."
    (What a mess!  It looks strangely like my apt.)  "What wreck and dis-
    order reigns in this domestic interior...showing a Puffer working sedu-
    lously while his wife bewails her empty purse and his children, vainly
    seeking food in the bare cupboard, put pots and pans on their heads in
    derision.  A large window opening out of the picture shows the same
    sham adept and his family...going off to take refuge in a poorhouse
    after he has wasted all his possessions."
    
    So, successful or not, the alchemists really did do the chemistry. 
    Some of their many operations included "...purgation, sublimation, cal-
    cination, fixation, separation, conjunction, distillation, and reverb-
    eration."  To complicate matters, they had to do these procedures at
    the correct times, astrologically speaking.  It's a wonder that any of
    them ever got to the gold, but some of them apparently did.  "Which 
    thou wilt do as I did it," says the successful Nicolas Valois, "if thou
    wilt take pains to be what thou shouldest be - that is to say, pious,
    gentle, benign, charitable, and fearing God."
    
    Virginia
                                        
    

    In doing some research for a posting on another network, I dug up
    the complete text of the credo of the Alchemists, the 
    Emerald_Tablet_of_Hermes_Trismegistus.   I posted it in PHILOSOPHY
    under a Hermeticism topic, in three parts, and am duplicating
    it here all in one note, including the essay resulting from my
    brief, superficial research.   Comments and corrections are 
    very welcome.    The credo is brief, the essay moderately long.
    
    							todd
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
This posting contains the complete text of the tablet, in English, followed
by a moderate to long essay on The_Emerald_Tablet from a historical 
perspective from a limited set of sources (2).

The text for the tablet is also available in Latin, from the Edinger source 
listed in the references.   There is also an Arabic version, but I have never
personally come across it (and I'd have trouble typing it in, anyway !).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

		The Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus

'Tis true, without falsehood, and most real: that which is above is
like that which is below, to perpetuate the miracles of one thing.
And as all things have been derived from one, by the thought of one,
so all things are born from this thing, by adoption.  The sun is its
father, the moon is its mother.  Wind has carried it in its belly,
the earth is its nurse.  Here is the father of every perfection in the
world. His strength and power are absolute when changed into earth; thou
wilt separate the earth from fire, the subtle from gross, gently and with
care.  It ascends from earth to heaven, and descends again to earth
to receive the power of the superior and the inferior things.  By this means,
thou wilt have the glory of the world.  And because of this, all obscurity
will flee from thee.  Within this is the power, most powerful of all powers.
For it will overcome all subtle things, and penetrate every solid thing.
Thus the world was created.  From this will be, and will emerge, admirable
adaptations of which the means are here.  And for this reason, I am called
Hermes Trismegistus, having the three parts of the philosophy of the 
world.  What I have said of the sun's operation is accomplished.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
		Essay concerning the tablet
		---------------------------

    "A very ancient text, La Table d'Emeraude, says

	'The thing that is on high is like the thing that is below,' 

     and the works of all the philosophers imbued with occult doctrines are not
     more than a long commentary on this principle.  If man is a diminutive
     of the universe, if they both obey the same mechanical, physical,
     and physiological laws, it is easy to know one by the other in one and the
     same process of study.  Whoever knows man knows the universe, and conversely,
     whoever knows the universe, knows man."

The above quote is from the French scholar of occultism, Grillot de Givry, from
an English translation of his Witchcraft_Magic_and_Alchemy.  Thus does the
'principle of correspondence' in the Emerald Tablet combine organic metaphor 
with divine analogy to express the powerful synthetic philosophy of microcosm
and macrocosm found at the core of the known occult sciences among most or all 
peoples.  

The legendary Hermes Trismegistus was probably a divinity of the Greek settlers
in Alexandria, Egypt, in the early centuries of our era.  The Greeks recognized
aspects of their own divinities in those of the Egyptians, and identified
Hermes with the Egyptian Thoth, as divine inventor of magic, writing, and the
spoken word, all of which were of great sacred importance to the Egyptians.

Thoth-Hermes seems to have developed from a deity into a mythical king who
wrote over 30,000 books, and reigned for 3,226 years.  Iamblichus gave the
number of books as 20,000.  Clement of Alexandria put the number at a sober
42.  They are now believed to be a collection of anonymous writings attributed
to 'Thoth' to give them the credibility afforded books of antiquity.  They deal
in the primarily Egyptian and Greek philosophy at the core of what later 
became known as Hermeticism, the root of the best known Renaissance Magic and 
Renaissance Alchemy.   In the early part of the era when this philosophy
first seems to have flourished, there was little doubt of the historical
existence of Hermes Trismegistus, having been confirmed by such notables
as Plato, Diodorus of Sicily, Teriullian, Galen, and Iamblichus, in addition
to many others.

Of all the writing attributed to Hermes Trismegistus, only 14 or 15 short
Greek texts and some fragments preserved by Christian authors survived
into the European Renaissance, as far as we can tell.  These came under the
collective title of Corpus_Hermeticum (body of Hermetic writings), or sometimes
The_Hermetica.  It is believed that before the end of the 12th century,
a Latin translation was available in Europe, by way of Arabic Alchemists.
The first widely available version of Corpus_Hermeticum in Europe was
the 1463 translation from Greek to Latin by Italian scholar Marsilio Ficino 
for his patron, Cosimo de Medici.  This is widely believed to be the
first true esoteric writings available in Renaissance Europe, and the basis
of most or all of the esoteric traditions which followed it.  

The_Hermetica contained references to Magic, and frequent references to
Astrology, but ony vague references to Alchemy.  Later Alchemists considered
teh Hermetic writings to be precious secrets deliberately veiled in allegory
by their writer.  Possibly the most controversial idea in the writings to 
their limited-size Medieval Christian audience was that of Apotheosis, the 
secret, so-to-speak, of the Mystery Religions, whereby the individual human 
became deified, 'like a God.'  An English translation of the Corpus by Walter 
Scott was available from Shambhala Publications at one time.  I don't know if 
it still is.

The general topic of the Corpus was very reminiscent of Gnosticism, and
some of it was strikingly similar to teh Gospel of St. John.  There are also
elements that are strongly Platonic, as from Timaeus, and some which 
resemble Philo's Greek-Jewish philosophies.

The Emerald_Tablet itself was one small but very significant passage from
the Corpus, and was considered the credo of the Alchemical adepts.  It was
found, according to tradition, 

	"in the hands of Hermes' mummy, in an obscure pit where his interred
	 body lay"
 
					in the great pyramid of Gizeh.

By tradition, the finder was either Alexander the Great, Sarah the wife of
Abraham, or possibly Apollonius of Tyana.

It is now commonly believed that there was no such person as Hermes
Trismegistus, and no Emerald_Tablet found in the great master's tomb.
Interestingly echoing the legend, the earliest recorded copy, in the Leyden 
Papyrus, dating from about 300 A.D., was discovered in the tomb of an 
anonymous magician in Egyptian Thebes in 1828.

In the allegories of the Emerald_Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus, the
Alchemists recognized the various stages of gold-making and the way in
which gold, linked metaphorically with the sun, mediated between man
and God.  There are also many parallels between The_Hermetica in general
and the Gospels, which were not lost on the Alchemists.

The true meaning of the Tablet is, as always was, is to be discovered in the
heart and soul of the seeker.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
References :

	_Anatomy_of_the_Psyche_, Alchemical Symbolism in Psychotherapy,
	Edward F. Edinger, Open Court Press, 1985.

	_The_History_of_Magic_and_the_Occult_, Kurt Seligmann,
	Pantheon Books, 1948.

								todd

    I've posted an essay from a public newsgroup speculating on (the 
    philosophy of Hermeticism and practices of Hermetic tradition) in relation 
    to martial arts practice in the ::ARTS (martial arts) notesfile, topic 
    604.   It is fairly lengthy, so I haven't repeated it here.
    
    Press keypad <7> or <select> to add ::ARTS to your notebook.
    
    								todd