| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 1166.1 | potential guideline on humor | VITAL::KEEFE | Bill Keefe - 223-1837 - MLO21-4 | Fri Nov 03 1989 13:47 | 10 |
| Humor is not an excuse for violation of these guidelines.
Humor which mocks the beliefs of others, demeans their intellegence,
their ethics or motives, pokes fun or ridicules someone or the
subject they are seeking information on, or which otherwise violates
the guidelines of proper communication in this conference is unacceptable.
This is _not_ to say that humor is discouraged, but it should be used
with discretion.
|
| 1166.2 | | WILLEE::FRETTS | All the Earth is alive... | Fri Nov 03 1989 14:04 | 12 |
|
Bill,
Personally I don't think there is a problem. From time to time
(and those times are becoming less and less) something a bit out
of line occurs. It gets handled and we move on. The conference
is fine the way it is - let's not try to totally control it to
the point that we no longer can express or show our humanness.
All is well.
Carole
|
| 1166.3 | Have a laugh, it won't hurt you !!! | MASALA::GAITKENHEAD | | Tue Nov 07 1989 08:57 | 6 |
| RE. 2
I'd have to agree with you on that one.
George.
|
| 1166.4 | I agree, also. | SHALOT::LACKEY | Service rendered is wisdom gained | Tue Nov 07 1989 09:52 | 8 |
| I think the conference guidelines are very thorough and should be
sufficient. Usually when the problems arise it is because we are
taking ourselves too seriously and not taking each other seriously
enough. If we can work to reverse this a little I think we will see
much more tolerance of others as we seek, eventually, to value those
differences.
Jeff
|
| 1166.5 | Laugh, but not at someone else's expense | VITAL::KEEFE | Bill Keefe - 223-1837 - MLO21-4 | Tue Nov 07 1989 10:11 | 19 |
| re: .3 -< Have a laugh, it won't hurt you !!! >-
This isn't meant to address innocent humor, but humor that causes
needless distress to someone. It's usually caused by people who don't
think that someone's question is serious, but occasionally goes beyond
even that to open mockery.
I don't want the file to be too restrictive either, but I do want people
to feel that they can enter notes without fear that they'll be ridiculed.
This note was not prompted by an attempt to fix something that isn't
really broken, but by notes entered in the file. I agree that in an
ideal situation, we *all* would have much more tolerance of others,
but that's not the case yet. How do we make it better?
- Bill
ps. Anyone who doesn't want to enter a note here can contact me via
mail about the subject.
|
| 1166.6 | | WILLEE::FRETTS | The Lady of My Being | Fri Jun 08 1990 14:25 | 18 |
|
Ok Bill...I'll jump in ;-). In reference to the recently write-locked
note, I will say up front that I do not know the *full* details
of what happened. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the
communication occurred through mail, not in the notesfile. So it
is not an issue that comes under this conferences guidelines. The
subject matter of the mail communications had to do with this
conference. I don't know what was said in the mail messages, but
in my heart of hearts I don't believe the person meant the mail
as an harrassment. If it was taken that way by the person who received
the mail, than IMO it should have been worked out between the two
people. I don't think this conference, or anyone else, should have
been brought into it.
So, can we agree now to let this thing die an honorable death?
Carole
|
| 1166.7 | here, here | CARTUN::MISTOVICH | | Fri Jun 08 1990 14:27 | 5 |
| Re: last few
I agree. I think its time to move on.
Mary
|
| 1166.8 | | VITAL::KEEFE | Bill Keefe - 223-1837 - MLO1-2 | Fri Jun 08 1990 15:51 | 72 |
| Carole and Mary,
I respectfully disagree. The problem is not going away by itself,
otherwise it wouldn't keep coming up. Letting this drop, yet again,
only invites it to continue and IMHO is not the right thing to do.
What needs to be addressed regards what is written in this conference,
as well as mail communication. Notes written here (or elsehwere)
invite response and I believe that it is appropriate to discuss what
is or is not acceptable behavior, since the mail communication would
not have happened _without_ the note being written in the first place.
I wonder how many readers have bothered to look up the official policy
on harassment. Rather than posting just part of it, I've included the
entire policy.
- Bill
[SECTION 6.03 OF THE PP&P in its entirety, reads as follows:]
PERSONNEL Section 6.03
Page 1 of 1
POLICIES AND PROCEDURES Effective 5-JUL-82
Harassment
It is the policy of Digital Equipment Corporation that all our
employees should be able to enjoy a work environment free of
discrimination and harassment.
Harassment refers to behavior which is personally offensive,
impairs morale and interferes with the work effectiveness of
employees. Any harassment of employees by other employees will not
be permitted, regardless of their working relationship.
This policy refers to, but is not limited to, harassment in the
following areas: (1)age, (2)race, (3)color, (4)national origin,
(5)religion, (6)sex, (7)handicap and (8)veteran status. Such
harassment includes unsolicited remarks, gestures or physical
contact; display or circulation of written materials or pictures
degrading to either gender or to racial, ethnic, or religious
groups; and verbal abuse or insults directed at or made in the
presence of members of a racial, ethnic or minority group.
Sexual harassment includes unwelcomed sexual advances, requests for
sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct that is both
sexual and offensive in nature. Sexual harassment undermines the
employment relationship by creating an intimidating, hostile or
offensive work environment.
In determining whether alleged conduct is sexual harassment, the
nature of the sexual advances and the context in which they
supposedly occurred must be examined.
Individuals who believe they have been subjected to harassment from
either a coworker or a supervisor should make it clear that such
behavior is offensive to them. If the behavior continues, they
should bring the matter to the attention of the appropriate manager
and/or their Personnel Representative. (See Open Door Policy, 6.02.)
In fulfilling their obligation to maintain a positive and pro-
ductive work environment, managers and supervisors are expected to
halt any harassment of which they become aware by restating the
Company Policy and, when necessary, by more direct disciplinary
action. (See Corrective Action and Discipline Policy, 6.21.)
Digital Equipment Corporation
|
| 1166.9 | Not letting it just drop. | CADSYS::COOPER | Topher Cooper | Fri Jun 08 1990 16:45 | 36 |
| This latest discussion has come out of a particular incident. Most of
the details of that incident have not been made public. The person
who felt damaged by the incident has requested that the matter be
dropped. Those wishes should unquestionably be upheld. There is to
be no public attempt to get more information about the incident, to
judge the rights/wrongs of it, or to take action against the person
accused of abusing the media. Any attempts to presure the complaintant
about changing his/her mind about letting it drop are, in my strong
opinion, out of line.
However, that does *NOT* mean, that we are obligated to sit back and
do nothing to prevent incidents such as has been alleged to have taken
place from occuring in the future. We do not have judge whether there
has in fact been a violation of the implicit and/or explicit rules of
this conference, to examine the facts and allegations of this incident
to serve as a springboard for examining the potentials of abuse of
DEJAVU, and what can be done to prevent or ameliorate such potential
abuses.
Nor do I think that it is correct to say that conference guidelines
only concern what can be posted here. DEJAVU is not simply a bunch of
isolated, notes, but is, in fact, a community. Any member of this
community (and you are a member if you so much as read it regularly)
deserves our support if he or she is harrassed, descriminated against,
or otherwise troubled, as a result of their participation/membership
in this community.
Although we have less power to enforce (i.e., through deletion or
note hiding) this, the conference guidelines also properly concern
use of information (particularly personal information) learned from
DEJAVU.
The question is: how can we structure DEJAVU so as to minimize the
risks to participants, and keep this a friendly place?
Topher
|
| 1166.10 | Defining "religion" | CADSYS::COOPER | Topher Cooper | Fri Jun 08 1990 17:04 | 23 |
| RE: .8
It is important to understand what is meant by "religion" in these
guidelines. I do not think that this refers narrowly to membership
in an established church, nor specifically to beliefs about "god(s)".
I think that in intent it refers broadly to general metaphysical and
spiritual systems of beliefs whether or not those beliefs refer
to the existence or lack thereof of one or more gods, or the properties
of those gods. (Two terminological notes: I do not intend and
implication of the gender male, female or other when I use the term
"god"; I use metaphysical in the original sense to mean philosophical
beliefs outside the realm of "physics" (science) -- not to refer to
occult beliefs).
One of the primary purposes of this conference is the discussion of
such beliefs. It is clearly acceptable for people to state their
beliefs, and to state their disagreement with the beliefs of others.
Participants should *not* however, be attacked, verbally or otherwise,
because of their beliefs, nor be subject to harasment, which includes
proselytizing. Keep in mind that proselytizing is not the exclusive
domain of any single religion.
Topher
|
| 1166.11 | | CARTUN::MISTOVICH | | Fri Jun 08 1990 17:36 | 13 |
| I understand what you are saying, but I honestly don't think that we
can structure the conference in such as way as to prevent harrassment
or other abuses of the system, because the abuse isn't caused by the
conference, it is caused by individuals. All we can do is post reminders
in the conference that certain behavior is unacceptable and against
company policy.
In cases in which abuses occur within the conference we can deal directly
with the perpetrator. In cases where the abuse takes place off-line,
it is up to the individual involved to decide either to confront the
perpetrator directly, take it to personnel, or ignore it.
Mary
|
| 1166.12 | Partial prevention. | CADSYS::COOPER | Topher Cooper | Fri Jun 08 1990 18:19 | 19 |
| RE: .11
We cannot *prevent* abuse entirely, but we can help:
1) We can be very clear about what constitutes abuse, in and out
of the conference. (Example from earlier in this thread:
humor cannot be used to excuse an attack).
2) We can provide mechanisms which protect people's privacy.
3) We can make it very clear, as individuals within this community
that we will provide support to the abused.
Number 1 is particularly important. Generalities are not sufficient.
To the greatest extent possible, they must be backed up with clear
guidelines. We cannot anticipate every possability, but we can head
off many of the favored devices of snipers.
Topher
|
| 1166.13 | ask politely, if ignore, request discipline | PSG::G_REILLY | I am an asparagus | Fri Jun 08 1990 18:54 | 44 |
|
We can respect each other's space. And if someone refuses to respect
another's space action should be taken.
What do I mean?
I will give a hypothetical example.
I state in my reply to something that I believe green rats carry
messages for us from higher intelligences from another planet.
I give examples of my experiences.
Several replies later someone (person X) types that my belief in green rats
is indicative of a low I.Q. The reply further states that
I need psychiatric help.
I reply and ask person X to stop making disparaging remarks about me.
[NOTE: I have just asked person X to respect me.]
Person X responds with "Truth is Truth and I can say what I want."
[NOTE HERE - person X is not respecting me.]
At this point ideally a moderator would intervene (at my request)
and point out to person X that person X was to respect my request.
Now person X starts sending me mail saying I need psychiatric
treatment, and making desparaging remarks about abilities to
relate to other humans, etc. My response to the first mail
is to ask person X to stop sending me mail. If person X
does not comply with my request, I would like to be able to
request the assistance of the moderator in backing me up
when I send mail to person X's manager.
The bottom line of all this is that I think maybe some of this
stuff would stop if people knew that a groundrule was to respect
a person's space. If a person says stop saying these things to
me, the offender (even if the offender doesn't agree) should
stop. No questions, rebuttals, etc. And if the offender
doesn't respect a person's request, corrective action should
be brought to bear with the offender's manager. In either case,
the responses should be consistent, so that the offender can
learn that the behavior will not be tolerated.
alison
|
| 1166.14 | two cents | ROULET::RUDMAN | Always the Black Knight. | Mon Jun 11 1990 13:30 | 90 |
| Well, I agree this particular incident is closed. But what about next
time? All I could come up with is to post a notice which highlights
the potential of "off-line" harassment, and to weekly delete & re-post
it, keeping it fresh in the minds of the strongly opinionated and the
safety-minded. (I say "re-post" as I don't think an OPENing pointer
would be adequate--Show & Tell is best.) I took the liberty to
generate a little notice, which follows the FF.
Don
Notice
Participation in this conference may involve you in conflicting
ideas and/or beliefs which may be carried outside of this conference.
Be aware that emotions sometimes run high, and you may be subjected to
some form of harrassment by those in opposition to your ideas and/or
beliefs. Please be aware this form of harrassment is against Digital
policy (see below), and you have the option of pursueing in with your
supervisor, manager, or Personnel representitive. Conversely,
those practicing harrassment covered by Digital policy are subject to
disciplinary action.
[SECTION 6.03 OF THE PP&P in its entirety, reads as follows:]
PERSONNEL Section 6.03
Page 1 of 1
POLICIES AND PROCEDURES Effective 5-JUL-82
Harassment
It is the policy of Digital Equipment Corporation that all our
employees should be able to enjoy a work environment free of
discrimination and harassment.
Harassment refers to behavior which is personally offensive,
impairs morale and interferes with the work effectiveness of
employees. Any harassment of employees by other employees will not
be permitted, regardless of their working relationship.
This policy refers to, but is not limited to, harassment in the
following areas: (1)age, (2)race, (3)color, (4)national origin,
(5)religion, (6)sex, (7)handicap and (8)veteran status. Such
harassment includes unsolicited remarks, gestures or physical
contact; display or circulation of written materials or pictures
degrading to either gender or to racial, ethnic, or religious
groups; and verbal abuse or insults directed at or made in the
presence of members of a racial, ethnic or minority group.
Sexual harassment includes unwelcomed sexual advances, requests for
sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct that is both
sexual and offensive in nature. Sexual harassment undermines the
employment relationship by creating an intimidating, hostile or
offensive work environment.
In determining whether alleged conduct is sexual harassment, the
nature of the sexual advances and the context in which they
supposedly occurred must be examined.
Individuals who believe they have been subjected to harassment from
either a coworker or a supervisor should make it clear that such
behavior is offensive to them. If the behavior continues, they
should bring the matter to the attention of the appropriate manager
and/or their Personnel Representative. (See Open Door Policy, 6.02.)
In fulfilling their obligation to maintain a positive and pro-
ductive work environment, managers and supervisors are expected to
halt any harassment of which they become aware by restating the
Company Policy and, when necessary, by more direct disciplinary
action. (See Corrective Action and Discipline Policy, 6.21.)
I also think 6.21 should be posted, as it is important to note
the effect as well as the cause.
You'll notice my notice is generic; as Bill pointed out, this
isn't the only conference affected, either.
Now, I'm sure someone will expound on the thought that a notice
of this type may discourage participation in this conference; well,
an individual should be well informed as to the possible consequences
of his/her actions to make the "informed decision". After all, we
can't stop someone else from taking action; it is up to each of us to
police themselves, and a reminder now and then wouldn't hurt.
Don
P.S. Too bad we must go to greater lengths than those already
taken, but there it is...
|
| 1166.15 | I'll raise you one cent. | CADSYS::COOPER | Topher Cooper | Mon Jun 11 1990 13:58 | 13 |
| RE: .14 (Don)
Pretty good, Don, but I think that it is *unnecessarily* scary. It
needs some emphasis that although problems can occur, and, in fact,
have occured, they are very rare and most have been resolved to
everyone's satisfaction. The poster of the example you suggested
decided that there had not actually been a "problem" (at least of the
kind he thought) but simply a misunderstanding of other people's
motives. Basically, I think pointing out specific examples from the
past -- except in generic terms -- would be a mistake: it has the
potential of reopening old wounds.
Topher
|
| 1166.16 | | CARTUN::MISTOVICH | | Tue Jun 12 1990 14:57 | 15 |
| re: .14 (Don)
I agree with Topher--that is unecessarily scary. Its more of a warning
against noting here (it may subject you to harassment) rather than a
warning to people not to harass.
I would suggest limiting to the reminder to something like:
"This conference involves open discussion of controversial
subjects...therefore emotions can run high. Please remember to respect
individual's rights to state their opinions in a non-threatening
environment. Harassment, mocking other's ideas, (other examples here)
are against Digital policy and will not be tolerated."
Mary
|
| 1166.17 | | PSG::G_REILLY | I am an asparagus | Tue Jun 12 1990 15:01 | 7 |
|
re: .16 (Mary)
I like that.
alison
|
| 1166.18 | Sounds good... | AOXOA::STANLEY | It's gonna be just like they say... | Tue Jun 12 1990 15:07 | 13 |
| RE: <<< Note 1166.16 by CARTUN::MISTOVICH >>>
> I would suggest limiting to the reminder to something like:
>
> "This conference involves open discussion of controversial
> subjects...therefore emotions can run high. Please remember to respect
> individual's rights to state their opinions in a non-threatening
> environment. Harassment, mocking other's ideas, (other examples here)
> are against Digital policy and will not be tolerated."
Very well put. Maybe you should be a co-moderator too!
Dave
|
| 1166.19 | "Victory or Doom" --Hagar the Horrible | ROULET::RUDMAN | Always the Black Knight. | Thu Jun 14 1990 18:25 | 11 |
| Why, thank you, Topher; what a nice thing to say! I meant it to
be scary; I wrote it for those who harrass. :-)
Of *course* it should be toned down; postings of this nature must
always be mild, gentle, and affable--after all, we are not threatening
anyone, merely reminding them the conference is for friendly discussion.
Besides, I knew someone would come up with a *much* better one.
(And someone did.)
Don
|