Conference hydra::dejavu

    
    It isn't a myth - animals are far more sensitive to such things than
    humans are.  For example, the range of hearing for dogs is far greater
    than it is for humans (the silent whistle comes to mind here).  Birds
    are also far more sensitive to the lack of oxygen than humans are, and
    I recall reading somewhere once that they were (are) used in mining
    shafts as an early warning device.
    
    As for the question of "Why are they more sensitive?", I will leave 
    that to Topher or Steve K., or....
    
    Cindy

    I heard (on a National Geographic special, I think) that the pigeon's
    hearing is so precise that one flying over the central part of the US
    can hear waves breaking on both the Atlantic and Pacific coasts! Sounds
    a bit hard to believe, but that's what they said.  If that's the case
    listening for siesmic activity would be a piece of cake.

    Terry

    The Chinese have observed and studied the activity of animals
    before earthquakes.  I have read that some Chinese base their
    earthquake predictions on animal activity.  I'm sorry that I
    can't point to any specific literature on this (perhaps others
    in this conference can), but I understand that predictions 
    based on animal activity are more accurate than other traditional
    indicators.  The Chinese have suffered enormously with earth-
    quakes.
    
    Martha

    Re .1 (Cindy):
    
    Animal sensitivity to influences is a survival mechanism.  Dogs
    have fairly poor vision, but have incredibly good senses of smell
    and hearing.  The frequency range of a dog's ears is much broader
    than ours (I assume only humans are reading this :-) ), and ability
    to hear faint noises is also far greater (something close to an
    order of magnitude over ours).  The sense of smell is so great that
    a female dog in heat will attract males from miles around, based
    on odor alone.  Cats have a somewhat wider frequency range and hearing
    level to ours, but their vision is in some ways superior: they can
    see in far dimmer light than we can, and their color vision is skewed
    for better night vision.
    
    Anent sensing potential natural disasters: this might also include
    a sensitivity for low-frequency "sounds" (vibrations) that might portend
    a forthcoming earthquake (or storm, for that matter); pressure differences
    would tend to indicate forthcoming meteorological changes.  
    
    There are a lot of subtle influences we feel, like tides, that
    other animals may be more sensitive to.  

    Re .2 (Terry):
    
    >I heard (on a National Geographic special, I think) that the pigeon's
    >hearing is so precise that one flying over the central part of the US
    >can hear waves breaking on both the Atlantic and Pacific coasts! Sounds
    >a bit hard to believe, but that's what they said.    
    
    Speaking from an audio engineering perspective, that seems more
    than hard to believe.  The roar of surf, some 1,000 miles distant,
    should reduce below the inherent noise level of atmospheric molecular
    motion.  Further, the cumulative roar of all waves breaking on both
    coasts, if audible, would probably become something akin to white
    noise anyway.  If the claim is true, it'd be interesting on how
    they obtained unambiguous data. 
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.              

    Let me concur -- this is not a myth.
    
    The Chinese efforts are part of a national detection system, with
    official channels of communication for farmers and others to report
    unusual behavior among animals.  The information is passed along and
    analyzed and weighted with other information (e.g., seismographs) to
    try to produce short term (day or two or less) warnings of impending
    quakes.  The system is still being "tuned" and will probably continue
    to be for a decade or so.
    
    The animals are by no means reliable -- they sometimes, as a group,
    act nervous without any earthquake occuring, and there are frequently
    cases when there is no evidence of odd behavior before an earthquake
    does strike (people won't remember it that way, of course, once they
    have been exposed to the idea -- they will tend to retroactively
    interpret ordinary variation in behavior as significant, and phone
    in to the radio programs).
    
    Here are the theories I have heard advanced:
    
    	1) Subsonics -- believable, since earth movements can be expected
    	   to produce subsonics.  In fact, you could say that an earthquake
    	   *is* a kind of very low frequency, very high energy, sound wave.
    	   In this case the animals probably are not aware of the subsonics
    	   in a perceptual way.  Small animals are generally less equiped
    	   than humans to "hear" subsonics.  More likely they are reacting
    	   to getting their insides shaken up.
    
    	2) Electromagnetics -- earthquakes seem to produce electromagnetic
    	   effects, via (possible mechanisms): peizoelectricity, movement
    	   of conducting masses and fluids, frictional electric generation
    	   (like rubbing your feet on the carpet), mechanical charge
    	   separation.  There is some *very* good evidence that some
    	   animals have a direct magnetic sense.  There is weaker evidence
    	   that many animals (including people) have such a senses.  There
    	   is apparently good evidence that with or without such a sense
    	   magnetic field changes directly effect the nervous and
    	   endrocrine (hormone) systems.  Given the variety of animals
    	   affected, I would again suspect that they don't "perceive" the
    	   coming earthquake so much as affected by it in less specific
    	   ways.
    
    	3) Ultrasonics.  We define ultrasonic in terms of what people can
    	   hear, and many animals can hear higher frequencies than we can.
    	   This is the one proposal where it seems likely that there would
    	   be something consciously perceived by the animals.
    
    I don't think we can assume that animals are effected but people are
    not.  People are much more complicated in their reactions to things,
    and much more likely to be effected as a group over large areas
    (reacting, for example, to political situations).  General nervousness
    among animals is therefore more likely to be apparent, and less likely
    to be caused by something else.
    
RE: Cats.
    
    Cat's vision makes different tradeoffs than humans.  They have greater
    night sensitivity but less precision.  If a person were to look through
    cat eyes, everything would seem a bit fuzzy.
    
    Color vision: Our ancestors had full color vision.  But somewhere in
    the mammal root stock it seems to have been lost.  Many mammals have
    reinvented it, (including in the feline line), but virtually
    universally it is based on 2-primarys.  As far as is known, among
    mammals only primates have a 3-primary color system (the minimum needed
    for fairly full range of color discrimination; some birds have a
    4-primary system, but this only extends color discrimination by a
    bit).  The cat may have its vision "biased" towards night better
    night vision in color, but it is an intrinsically weaker system.
    
RE: Pidgeon ears
    
    I'm with Steve, that seems like orders of magnitude outside of physical
    limits.  Haven't done the calculations, but I would bet its below
    quantum limits for a detector at absolute zero.  Human hearing is only
    slightly above that limit (which required some fancy footwork to
    explain since obviously, the human ear is no where near 0K).
    
    					Topher

       Yeah, I've read that about Chinese predictors, too, especially,
    like the base noter, since I live in "earthquake country."
    
       As for the pidgeons (and I have heard Terry's report before, too)
    maybe it's something new, like homeopathic hearing?  ;-)
    
    Frederick
    

    As I live in Los Angeles, and own two cats, I've seen them assume
    the 'low-riding' position just prior to the earthquake striking.
    It happens to close to the actual quake that I don't see what the
    value of using cats would be, particularly as the cats often react
    to odd noises other than earthquakes in a similar manner.
    
    I've also noticed that my own ability to hear quakes coming has
    developed somewhat, if I'm either outdoors, or in a room with
    open windows, especially if it is the crack-the-whip type of
    quake. As quakes seem to happen often in hot weather ( locals
    call it Shake N'Bake weather) this is sometimes possible.
    Seismologists deny any connection between weather and quakes, of
    course.
           
    -roger
    
    

   By morning we'll all know more, but tonight I heard about the earthquake
   in San Francisco.  From the early reports it was about 6.7 on the richter
   scale and had caused significant damage.  The reporter said thousands of
   people were in the streets causing additional confusion and that part of
   the bay bridge had collapsed.  It lasted about 15 seconds and was felt as
   far away as Fresno.

   Sending caring, loving thoughts their way...

   Terry

    I went home for lunch and the television was exploding with live
    new coverage of the quake.
    
    The city is in darkness, no phone, no power, no water, no shelter
    -- lots of people in a daze just standing around in the streets.
    Candlestick Park suffered only minor cracks and such; the game was
    cancelled!
    
    One segment reported a couple's apartment where they were painting
    the house when the quake hit, then later were evacuating the building
    and had to carry the baby from person to person just to get through
    the hallway.
    
    					+++
    
    Lots of comfort needed over there now...
    
    T

    Here in the UK we have had many reports 'live' and recorded from the
    area. It is 8:30 am here as apposed to 01:30 ish there.
    
    Reports tell of 200 people being killed and 400+ injured, though the
    figures cannot be confirmed as it is there is no power there for lights
    and not all areas have been reached. The main cause of death was the
    flyover roads falling on drivers below, and the top layer of the San
    Francisco Bay bridge collapsed. It was worse as the quake hit at around
    5:30pm with lots of commuter traffic.
    
    Lots of love and strength to those involved.
    
    Martin

    This mornings news report gave 271 known dead and 500+ known injured.
    These are in the San Francisco/Oakland areas.  The epicenter of
    the quake was in Santa Cruz/San Jose.  Very little information is
    coming out of these areas and the damage and death toll/injury count
    is unknown.  All this as off 5:45 MDT.
    
    
    Steve
    

    A good friend of mine finally reached his parents by telephone at 
    1:00 a.m. EST.  They had arrived in S.F. at noon, 5 hours before 
    the quake.  In Redwood City where his parents were visiting, 
    (about 1/2 way between S.F. and the epicenter) there seemed to be no 
    significant structural damage (like collapsed buildings).  Lamps and 
    books crashed to the floor, people grabbed their loved ones and ran out
    to the streets, electricty was lost for several hours and then restored 
    and I heard that fortunately the epicenter was in a comparitively 
    lightly populated area of the Santa Cruz mountains.
    
    Prayers and light to this area.
    Karen
    

    re: last several
    
         Most of us have survived relatively undamaged.  There are nearly
    5 million people living in the areas affected by this event and few
    (percentage-wise) have suffered physical wounds.  I, too, share in
    my compassion for those who have been through a very major or
    possibly fatal crisis.
         I believe I have noted in an earlier earthquake note (one
    of John Mitchell's gems?  ;-) ) that I live about one mile or so
    from the San Andreas.  I live on one of the highest peaks in the
    Santa Cruz Mountains and the fault line lies off the north/east side
    of the ridge.  As far as I can tell from the information I've seen,
    my home is about ten miles away from the epicenter of this big quake.
         I was not home when the quake struck.  I was waiting for a friend
    and was spending time in a book store in Sunnyvale (perhaps 30 miles
    from the epicenter) at 5:01 or 5:02 when it hit.  What surprises me
    about myself is how slow I was in reacting, though I was aware it was
    an earthquake immediately.  Though I was only about ten feet from the
    door, I stood still thinking it was only going to be a slight and
    short shaker.  But after a couple of seconds (and time really does
    lose perspective in moments such as this,) and after several other
    people in the store went whizzing past at world-record speed, I 
    decided to run, too.  I ran out to the sight of people standing
    around looking and the sounds of cars slamming on brakes.  As
    I looked I could see trees swaying and light posts flicking like
    whips.  Have you ever seen a two-foot diameter tree sway?  Interesting
    sight...what we think of as rigid is remarkably flexible.  Throughout
    this the earth was moving.  To me it felt as a very solid sidewards
    pushing...a sense of an ocean wave is comparable.  When it stopped
    (and the uncertainty in the air could be sensed) I waited a couple of
    minutes (or maybe just seconds) and decided to retrieve my sunglasses
    which had been removed from my head as I had vacated earlier.  I
    noticed lots of books and magazines on the floor but I was in a bit
    of a hurry to get back out so I didn't notice much.  Still, there was
    no apparent structural damage anywhere that I noticed.  As I walked 
    over to my car, some old woman (perhaps 65) pulled up to me and said
    that she was driving along and noticed something that felt like a 
    flat tire, could I tell her what might be wrong.  I said, "Ma'am
    [that's a word I virtually never use]  We just had a major earthquake."
    (I could tell it was big...I didn't know how big.)  She put her hands
    to her mouth and said "oH, my!"  I then took off and waited nearby
    at my friend's house.  Most of the radio stations were off the air
    but as I was listening to the world series station, it was becoming
    apparent that there were big, big problems around.  When I heard
    that the earthquake came from the Santa Cruz mountains, I decided
    to get home asap.  
         What I discovered on the trip home was that power seemed to be
    off everywhere.  No traffic lights anywhere (and this is rush-hour
    traffic, understand...) and yet there was no signs of anxiety
    or trauma.  My whole trip home revealed no structures of any type
    down (except a stop sign which someone had removed from the ground
    with a car...as noted by the tire tracks.)  Once in the mountains,
    though, there were boulders along the side of the road that hadn't
    been there that morning.  Also, radio reports saying that some
    mountain roads were close, including the major one going over to
    Santa Cruz (highway 17, which is the old name [prior to federal
    funding two years ago] of highway 880, which is the road that has
    collapsed in Oakland.)  Once home, I discovered everything still
    there but rather a mess.  I live in a trailer and it had been knocked
    to the ground.  Everything inside was on the floor (tv, stereo, tapes
    everywhere, with a bowl of sugar sprinkled liberally over everything...
    perhaps to sweeten it a bit?  :-) )  I then went over to a neighbor's
    house and he was busy cleaning up.  He had been home during the
    temblor and said that for him he was moved vertically very rapidly.
    He said he was actually lifted off the ground by the vertical
    movements.  Anyway, he came over and we spent about two hours
    trying, mostly unsuccessfully, to get my trailer back up.  In the
    meantime, I got out a portable, battery-powered tv and watched the
    reports many of you have also seen.  After midnight I finally got
    to bed and awoke only briefly for two aftershocks.  
         The weather has been quite beautiful...last night was warm
    and clear and windless.  The power is still off in the mountains
    and may be for a while.  The trip in to DEC here in Santa Clara
    (normally a 45 minute drive without traffic) was peaceful and
    unusually light.  Along the way, again, I saw no signs of damage
    anywhere, save for two sections of 17 where there where buckles
    in the road that had not been there yesterday.  This building
    (Santa Clara 3) is quite intact and there will be at least a 
    skeleton crew in here, some of which is now beckoning me.
         So, here is my special, coming to you from the coast of 
    shakers.  
    
    Frederick
    

    
    THANK YOU Frederick, for checking in.  I heard about this all last
    night around 10:30pm and my first immediate thought was of you and then
    the other folks at DEC who work there.
    
    Sending healing energy to those there who need it right now.
    
    With love,
    
    Cindy

    
    
    Yes Frederick...thanks for letting us know that you are ok.  You
    were very much in my thoughts.
    
    Carole

    Frederick,

    I was wondering about you.  Glad to hear you made it through okay.
    I stayed up late watching all the film footage wondering how 
    side-spread it really was.  Thanks for the account.  

    Take care, all of you...

    Terry    

 
	Most folks ain't in the office (yet anyway).  Big damage is the
	1 mile stretch of 880 in Oakland and the Marina neighborhood in
	S.F (and Bay Bridge, of course).  LAN here is going nuts with
	satellites and servers MOP'ing to death, most nodes are down.
	Major damage also in Santa Cruz and Los Gatos; water supply
	situation is very critical in Los Gatos.  A number of
	engineers are checking in by phone, but that's hit and miss, phones
	are rather screwed up right now (but generally the phone system
	has held up extremely well).  Santa Clara 1 and 2 evacuated,
	Santa Clara 3 seems OK but most folks haven't come in.
	Biggest area emergency right now is a hospital UPS system in
	Watsonville.  S.F. financial district w/o power, so it's
	hard to say how bad the computer problems there will turn
	out to be.  San Jose/Santa Clara did escape pretty unscathed,
	except for general power outages in most areas.  Most broad-
	casting facilities were knocked out for hours except those
	that had emergency generators.  I was outside and the ground was
	moving in a wave pattern, 1 foot amplitude (2 feet peak to
	peak) with about a 50 foot wavelength for around 20 seconds.
	At home just some trivial breakage of stuff falling off the
	shelves (although a hairline crack in my sidewalk is now
	about 1/2" wide).  Had to cook off a camp stove last night.
	General rule today is that if you have to take care of
	something at home go ahead, otherwise we do what we can
	for DEC customers today to lighten the load for the next
	few days.
    
	In general, amazing that the general situation is as good
	as it is.  A few aftershocks, but pretty much trivial jolts
	in comparison.  Except for the Bay Bridge and 880 in Oakland
	and the Marina, will just mainly be clean up the mess.
	Basically OK, just a very very darn good shaking up.  I don't
	wish to belittle things, it is a major catastrophe, just
	very very amazing the Bay Area got off as easy as it did.
 
							Bill
    

    Frederick and Bill,
    
    Thanks for letting us know.
    
    Now, a pair of questions:  When was moonrise and when was sunset
    yesterday?
    
    							Ann B.

    Hi, Ann, I'll be glad to tell you when I can, it depends on when
    I can find yesterday's paper in all the confusion, which might take
    a day or so.  Word here now is "business as usual" tomorrow although
    right now the structural integrity of Santa Clara 1 is not clear,
    rumor has it Santa Clara 2 will be open for sure.  It's eerie here, very
    quiet and very few people in the office, like being in on a Satur-
    day.  No further updates from my last reply.  General mood in the
    general area is "dig out" today and get back to normal tomorrow.
    Customer-wise, we have very little word from Santa Cruz and San
    Francisco, other localities seem OK for now.  We expect that
    tomorrow and maybe on into the weekend may be busy days for
    helping customers get back on the air.
    						Bill Dickey
    						Western Area
    						Systems Support
                                                               

{forwarding headers removed}
    
From:	NAME: Bob Glorioso                  
	FUNC: High Performance Systems        
	TEL: 297-5915                         <GLORIOSO.BOB AT A1 at CORA @CORE>
To:	See Below

    TO: ALL EMPLOYEES
    
    
    I have been in contact with our West Coast operations in Cupertino and 
    Mountain View. Of paramount importance, I have learned that all our 
    employees are safe. Our buildings sustained minor damage such as broken 
    ceiling tiles, broken glass, etc. As is normal procedure, the buildings 
    will be reinspected to ensure structural and environmental safety 
    before opening for operations. We expect to be back in operation very 
    quickly.
    
    AT&T has requested that you please delay making calls to the West Coast 
    until normal communications can be restored.
    

To Distribution List:

    {removed}

    
        Hi, Ann, a friend I called had these times for the sun and
        moon (hope he looked at the right newspaper and didn't make
        a mistake reading the times to me over the phone):
         
                San Jose, October 17th  (in Pacific Daylight Time)
                        Sunrise:  7:18 AM       Sunset:  6:28 PM
                        Moonset:  10:59 AM      Moonrise: 8:26 PM
                        Quaketime: 5:04 PM
                (One report suggests the quake actually started
                about 3 minutes before 5:04 and took that long
                to travel up to San Francisco; anyway, the general
                consensus puts the official time at 5:04).
                 
        Life's routines here are very quickly getting back to normal.
        Of course, there are plently of problems all around and lots
        of hard work and repairs to do, and I absolutely cannot
        express in words the human suffering (who of us can?), but
        things are surprisingly getting back to normal to a large
        extent.  Not much to add to the earlier replies from me
        and Frederick, that was pretty factual and contained the
        overall essence of things in the Bay Area.  Hope I didn't over-
        do it on the computer side of the situation at the expense
        of reporting on the human/"real world" side, just reporting
        what the concerns were today from the local DEC Santa Clara
        perspective.
         
        I always had a sort of theory that quakes might be related,
        at least sometimes, to gravitational influences of the sun
        and moon since, after all, these effects *are* tugging this
        way and that way on the earth's plates, only question is
        how significant is the influence.
         
        That's it from me, I suppose, unless I found out those times
        above are in error; all the big excitement is winding down.
        Quake coverage positively dominated round the clock local
        broadcasting here but the stories are getting very very 
        repetitive now so I feel the media will be back to normal
        pretty soon, you know how that goes.  There were a couple
        of reports suggesting that dogs and cats, especially dogs,
        were pretty "spooked" yesterday but I have absolutely no
        details other than "spooked" nor what really was behind
        these reports (number of animals, when they were spooked,
        etc., I just don't know . . . much of the reporting was
        seeing newsmen get handed one piece of scratch paper after
        another with very brief obviously scribbled short items
        and the report would be a school closing then a water
        supply report then a damage report from some remote area
        then advice on checking for gas leaks and on and on, very
        incoherent . . . the animal reports were sandwiched into
        the middle of this kind of collage).
         
                                                Bill_who's_writing_
                                                this_on_a_PC_rescued_
                                                from_underneath_a_stack_
                                                of_toppled_Tarot_books_
                                                honest!
                                                 
                                            
 
    

 Digital - California earthquake relief donations
	{Livewire, 18-Oct-89}
   The following organization is accepting cash donations for the relief effort
 in Northern California in the wake of the Oct. 17 earthquake. The list of
 agencies will be updated as more information becomes available.
                 American Red Cross Disaster Relief
                 Office of Public Support
                 National Headquarters
                 17th and D Streets, N.W.
                 Washington, DC  20006

   Checks should be marked "San Francisco Earthquake Relief" in the memo space. 
 All donations, made through other qualified agencies that meet Digital's 
 Matching Gift Program criteria, will be matched dollar-for-dollar. Please 
 request that those agencies send copies of their federal tax-exempt 501(c)(3)
 letter, charter/purposes and goals back with the Matching Gift form. Matching
 Gift forms are available through your Personnel office and must accompany each
 donation.

    re: .21 (Bill)
    
         Yes, lots of what we are seeing/reading is repetitious.  But
    there is clearly another reality co-existing wherein the drama and
    story isn't ending yet.  I still have no power, for instance, and
    have an interest in PG&E reports.  Others still have friends and
    relatives pinned in cars and are obviously interested in that.
    Also, along with the drama and media attention there are stories
    of positive reality creation, if one cares to look.  These are
    the survivor stories or the hero stories.  Sometimes reading these
    accounts we can get insights into the types of thinking/feeling
    that provide for more physical life, not only in quantity, but also
    in quality.
    
          This work facility is remarkably unscathed.  One would never
    have any idea that anything of the magnitude that happened two days
    ago had happened here.  Even the power problems that the rest of the
    area experienced didn't happen here (after some brief outages.)
    
          I don't know about you, Bill, but last night I was able to
    watch tv in color for about two hours (when my neighbor created
    some electricity with a generator) and saw some scenes that were
    pretty frightening.  Seeing the back end (the trunk part) of a 
    car sticking out from a huge slab of concrete and seeing that slab
    sitting just one inch or so above a roadway makes one shudder at the
    horror of that past moment in life/death.  With Dan Rather last
    night was a male survivor who reported seeing someone's brains
    quivering on the roadway as he escaped.  Sure, it can get old
    quickly and it is helpful to get on with a more positive future.
    I would never suggest that we need to hold onto that kind of past
    but neither would I suggest that we turn our backs on people who
    are deeply immersed in situations that could use our compassion
    and leadership.
    
    Frederick
    

    re. 22 - American Red Cross Disaster Relief
    
    You can also call their 800 number and they will send the pledge form 
    out to you to return. The number is 1-800-453-9000. Make sure to tell 
    them it's a cash donation and don't use your credit card, otherwise you 
    won't be able to send in the Matching Gift form along with your
    donation.
    
    	- Bill

    A temporary notesfile has been started on the topic. It is called
    USWRSL::earthquake. Press KP7 to add this conference to your notebook.

    Frederick and Bill,
    
    I am happy to read that you are safe.  
    
    Item of interest:  Last night when I turned on the news, I heard the
    very end of a report about relationships between lunar cycles 
    (specifically the full moon) and quakes.  The theory was that the same
    stress that causes high tides, etc., also effects or causes quakes.  I
    tuned in too late to know the specifics of whether studies had been
    done, were being done, by whom, etc.
    
    Mary

There also was a major solar flare on the 18th...we should be in for
a severe geomagnetic storm starting today.

-Perry

    Fred and all others,
    
    I'm glad to hear you are well.  Jim and I were on Highway 17 near
    the Summit (on the Santa Cruz side) when it struck.  Watching the
    pavement jump and writhe was incredible, as well as the hurricane-
    without-wind in the redwoods.  The kids are safe, the cats are all
    back, and we'll be able to fix the damage with a little help from
    our friends (especially those that know how to pour concrete ;-)
    ).  We lost a picture window, our chimney broke away from our house
    and is riddled with cracks, and we lost two retaining walls. 
    
    Highway 17 is damaged a lot on our side of the hill.  The landslides
    stopped northbound traffic immediately; fissures cross the entire
    road, including the waist-high, cement divider; the lifts are inches
    high; and buckles riddle the road.  The positive side is that traffic
    into Santa Cruz from Scotts Valley is a breeze on 17!! (We even
    saw President Bush's motorcade go by today!)  Felton suffered a
    lot of damage but everyone is courteous, caring, and has a story
    to tell.
    
    I hope you all are well.
    
    
    Jill

    
    Jill...glad to hear that you and your familty are well.  I was
    hoping that you would let us know.  You have been very much in
    my thoughts.
    
    Carole

       On Friday in Los Angeles, Lazaris talked about the earthquake
    here (for a few minutes.)  He also said pretty much the same thing
    Saturday at the start of the 2-day workshop there.  He is also
    planning on saying more here in San Francisco tonight, since it
    is obviously more important here (this time around.)
       He said that we could look to the cause as the sense of
    powerlessness or hopelessness and could seek out the emotion that
    needs releasing.  We could also release guilt and depression (as
    a consequence of survival.)  Also that we are experiencing a sense
    of failure.  He indicated that our reality is one that should not
    consider it a failure since this did not come unexpectedly (for 
    it is a reality of our world that earthquakes happen in California.)
    He reminded us that he predicted several this year in places that
    we would not expect them, but *also* in places we do (this being
    one.)  He also mentioned that part of the energy that released the
    earthquake had to do with the energy released after Sept. 23.  He
    reminded us, too, that metaphysicians aren't without problems...that
    metaphysicians are the ones with lots of solutions.  Anyway, this is
    a very brief synopsis of what he said.  
    
         As a side note, I became aware last night that a person I know
    who is involved in construction was being interviewed by a free-lance
    writer.  I asked why and he told me that it was because of his using
    crystals in his projects.  When he elaborated, he explained to me that
    he always programs a crystal for safety and then places it in a
    building as he is constructing it and it then remains there "forever."
    He said that not only did all of his buildings in the Bay Area
    make it through unscathed, but there was not so much as a piece of
    paper displaced within them.  Anyway, I find this all pretty
    interesting.
    
    
    Frederick
    

    re: Jill
    
        Glad to see you're safe!
    
    Frederick
    

    ...on a more Astronomical approach to examining the lunar forces which
    may have been a factor in triggering this earthquake, from my research
    in examining the Moon's cycles the following are events which are
    happening during this lunar cycle:
    
10/14/1989 Full Hunter's Moon 15:33 EST (Saturday)
    
10/14/1989 Closest, biggest-looking Moon of 1989, 4 hours after full Hunter's (Saturday)
    
10/28/1989 Farthest Moon of 1989 (Saturday)
    
10/29/1989 New Moon 10:29 EST (Saturday)
    
    In reference to what I am referring to, notice that on the 14th, we
    had the full Moon, as well as the closest Moon of the year. Then,
    during the same lunar cycle, from full Moon to new Moon, we have the
    farthest Moon of the year as well.
    
    This leads me to believe that the Moon is on its fastest journey
    away from us, therefore exerting the greatest amount of gravity
    against the Earth.
    
    Indeed, this could have been one of the major contributing factors
    to the cause of the earthquake in California and in China, and also,
    it means that until the new Moon, we should be expecting more.
    
    Although not to instill fear in anyone, I strongly urge those who
    are in areas which are prone to earthquakes, to expect more to come
    until the end of this lunar cycle.
    

    
    
    I also remember hearing a *very* brief report that there was an
    earthquake in Italy last week as well.
    
    C.

    Hi folks ...
    
    Thanks for all your concerns. Being the person who initiated this
    note on Oct 06/89, I was very anxious to get an access to this
    conference as soon as I got back to work and share my experience.
    
    I had been working in the graveyard shift [11:00pm-8:00am] since
    the last 3 weeks. As such I was at home in San Jose when the quake
    hit around 5:04pm on Oct 17/89. My wife had been fasting [an Indian
    custom where the wife fasts the entire day and breaks on the fast
    on sighting the moon] and we, along with our 17 month daughter Monique,
    were about to step out. That's when we heard this loud rumbling
    sound and the eerie creaking noise from the walls as they started
    swaying and shaking. I grabbed Monique and all three of us stood
    in the doorway barely able to stand on our feet. We helplessly saw
    picture frames fall and break and so did a few of decorative items.
    The lamp shade in the corner of our living room, which was hanging
    about 2 feet form the ceiling, was going crazy, swaying and hitting
    the ceiling from the swing. We were scared because we are on the
    2nd and 3rd floor and the structure could fall any second. Fortunately,
    nothing happened and we survived.
    
    We are getting back to normal. However, it's a slow process due
    to emotional toll this quake has taken. Just today I closed the
    front door a little hard and Monique, who's just 17 months and who
    never was scared, got really scared and burst out crying with fear
    in her eyes and clung to me for several minutes.
    
    Dinesh.
    

    
    Jill and Dinesh - very good to hear from you.  
    
    Cindy

    re:          <<< Note 1146.32 by STAR::HARAMUNDANIS "what are we doing?" >>>
                     -< The Moon and its possible effects >-

�    This leads me to believe that the Moon is on its fastest journey
�    away from us, therefore exerting the greatest amount of gravity
�    against the Earth.
    
    HELP!!!  where are our resident scientists when we need them???
    
    I do not believe that the above statement is supported by
    our current physics.....
    
    as i understand it:
    
      the gravitational attraction between two bodies directly
    correlates to their masses, is inversely proportional to
    (the square of) their distance, and has nothing whatsoever to
    do with relative velocity....    that in fact, as the moon recedes
    from the earth, no matter how quickly, it's gravitational effect
    on the earth is reduced.
    
    
    /bruce

    Re: .-1
    
    >  the gravitational attraction between two bodies directly
    >correlates to their masses, is inversely proportional to
    >(the square of) their distance, and has nothing whatsoever to
    >do with relative velocity....    that in fact, as the moon recedes
    >from the earth, no matter how quickly, it's gravitational effect
    >on the earth is reduced.
    
    This could very well be the case and at this point I'd like to do
    a little research on this before commenting further. My main point
    was that I had observed that the Moon is receding very quickly,
    relative to other times that it recedes, and thought that this may
    have an effect on natural phenomena here on Earth.
    
    Thanks for pointing this out. I'm interested in hearing if others
    have information substantiating one view or another.
    
    Regards,
    
    Sergei

RE: last few
    
    The gravitational force between two bodies depends only upon their
    masses and the square of the distance between them.  It does not
    depend on their relative velocities.
    
    The tidal force between two bodies, which is more likely to be
    signicant here, depends only upon their masses and the *cube* of the
    distance between them.  It does not depend on their relative velocities
    either.
    
    To a good first approximation, the moon follows the same eliptical
    path each time around, coming approximately as close and approximately
    as far away.  Since the earth is revolving around the sun however,
    sometimes the point in its orbit which is closest to the earth (the
    perigee) is in the direction of the sun, sometimes it is in the
    direction opposite to the sun and other times it is in other directions,
    depending on the time of year.
    
    Now the full moon occurs when the moon is at the point in its orbit
    opposite to the sun from the Earth.  So when the moon's perigee is away
    from the sun, the moon will be significantly closer then when the
    apogee (point in the orbit furthest from the earth) is in that
    direction.  There is a quite noticable difference in the size of the
    moon.  This is what makes it the "largest full moon" of the year.
    
    Now the constancy of the shape of the Moon's orbit is only an
    approximation.  The sun's gravitation distorts this, as does the fact
    that neither the earth nor the moon are perfect spheres, as do the
    other planets.  So the sometimes apogee is very slightly further
    than at other times.  It even makes sense that that time would be
    roughly at the same time that the full moon occurs during perigee,
    since then apogee is pointing towards the sun, and so a small part of
    the attraction of the earth will be canceled by an opposite attraction
    to the sun (I said that it makes sense, but take this with a grain of
    salt, I haven't checked it. and orbital behavior can be very
    counterintuitive).  But note that I said that it is *very slightly*
    further than at other times.  I'll have to check it but I don't think
    that it would make as much as a 1% difference in the velocities
    involved.
    
    And the velocities do not effect the force of the attraction.
    
    What might be more significant (though I doubt it) is the simple fact
    of perigee occuring at full moon.  1) Total tidal forces are strongest
    at new and full moons (when the sun's and moon's tidal forces are
    "lined up"), 2) The moon's tidal contribution is strongest when it is
    at perigee, 3) The moon moves most rapidly each orbit at perigee,
    therefore the direction of its tidal force changes most rapidly then.
    We therefore have a situation of close to maximum tidal force coupled
    with a relatively rapid change in the direction that the force is
    applied.  Seems like this might be better than average conditions to
    unstick a fault and trigger a quake.  Probably not, but its a thought.
    
    					Topher

    Re: .36, .38
    
    Since your replies, folks, I have had the chance to do a little
    research on gravitational theory, in particular by examining physics
    encyclopedias.
    
    One observation I found was that in the history of the proof of
    gravitational constants, of which many people have been involved over
    the years, since Sir Isaac Newton, that it appears the experiments that
    have been made have not concerned themselves with the velocity of the
    object, when attempting to measure gravitational attraction (executed
    most recently by the measuremnt of deflection).
    
    Unless I can find specific information on experiments which account for
    velocities of the object in question, or someone can provide me with a
    source I can examine, I'm not convinced that velocity has nothing to do
    with it. From the encyclopedias I have read, there was not even a
    mention of velocity being a contributing, or insignificant, factor in
    determining gravitational attraction.
    
    Of course, I'm not an expert on physics, I have just made the
    observation that it was not possible to measure gravitional attraction
    of two objects in relative motion of each other, given the apparatus
    that has been used to determine its constant.
    
    On a tangent however, in my recent research on this, I have also found
    that the Moon has as many, if not more numerous quakes (i.e.
    Moonquakes) than the Earth, approximately 1300 a year, especially
    during perigee. So, consider the recent effects the Earth has had on
    the Moon during this cycle. I'm sure the Moon's surface has some new
    features!
    
    Regards,
    
    Sergei

    Sergei,
    
    Yes, one *can* measure the relative gravitational attraction between
    two movings objects.  How else would we know the attraction between
    the Earth and the Moon? (For example.)  The pull which <B> asserts
    on <A> is directly proportional to the mass of <B>, and proportional
    to the square of the distance between <A> and <B>.  Meanwhile, the
    pull which <A> asserts on <B> is directly proportional to the mass
    of <A>, and proportional to the square of the distance between <A>
    and <B>.  Thus the Earth <A> has more effect on the Moon <B> than
    the reverse, because the Earth is more massive, not because of any
    distance or distance-divided-by-time (speed) effect -- because the
    Earth is as far from the Moon as the Moon is from the Earth (a
    tautology).
    
    Now, the theory was first used on moving objects.  (Planetary objects.)
    It was then turned towards stationary objects, and was found to
    hold true for them as well, with *no* changes.  (I even made this
    measurement in college using two spheres rigidly connected.)
    Therefore, since there is no fudge factor vis � vis stationary
    objects, there can be no effect due to motion, and hence, velocity.
    
    						Ann B.

RE: .40 (Sergei)
    
    First off, we have to understand that there are *two* theories of
    gravity out there.  The first is Newton's theory, and the second,
    by Einstein, is called General Relativity.  Newton's theory is an
    approximation to GR, but under almost all practical conditions it is
    a very, very good approximation.  Unlike Special Relativity, General
    Relativity is complex and difficult (SR is conceptually simple, but
    is so counterintuitive that it confuses people), so one normally
    sticks with the simple approximation of Newton's theory.  So when I
    said that the speed does not effect the gravitational force I was
    speaking about Newton's theory.
    
    Unless you are talking about very, very sensitive measurements, very,
    very rapidly moving objects or very, very strong gravitational fields
    there is no reason to bother with GR -- the differences are just too,
    too small.  In this case, none of the three conditions hold, and Newton
    should be applied.
    
    I can't say I really understand GR (sometime when I've got months of
    free time :-) I will try to really understand it), but as I understand
    it, in GR, the gravitational force *does* depend on the relative
    velocities of the objects.  This is a consequence of the gravitational
    force acting on the total energy (including kinetic) of the object.
    How this effets things is very complex, and for the small differences
    in velocity we are talking about, of infintesimal impact.
    
    As was pointed out, the planets move in precise ways which are very
    well predicted by Newton's theory, which assumes that the relative
    velocity does not affect the force.  Given the long period of time
    this has been observed this forms a very precise meaurement of any
    effect velocity has on gravitational force.
    
    In fact, a descrepancy was found.  It was in the direction of the
    major axis of Mercury's orbit, which was found to change direction
    by about 40 seconds of arc per century different from what Newton's
    theory predicted.  GR predicts, because of a variety of effects
    including the velocity dependence, a movement of 43 seconds of an arc
    per century.  The Sun's gravitational field is much stronger than
    Mercury's, Mercury moves about 50 times faster than the moon, we are
    only talking about a small difference in speed (not the total speed
    of the moon at any given time), and even in Mercury's case we are
    talking about an angular difference per year roughly the same as
    the angle subtended by a dime 5 miles away.
    
    In summary, we have measurements which tell us that GR's predictions
    about the effect of relative velocity on gravitational force are very
    close to true, and those predictions say that those forces are way
    too small to make enough difference to worry about.  You should worry
    first about the vibrations from your wearing heavy boots triggering
    an earthquake.
    
    						Topher

    This may have already been discussed in the last few, but I'm too lazy
    to read closely enough to try to decipher, therefore, I ask:
    
    Could the moon's velocity have an effect which, while not changing 
    the amount of gravity, would shorten the time frame in which the gravity
    changed from its greatest amount to a much lesser amount?  (sort of
    like tug-of-war, when one side lets go a little too quickly, and the
    other side ends up on its [collective] buns?) 
    
    Just a laythought,
    Mary

    Mary,
    
    No.  Keep in mind that the Moon's changes in velocity are always
    slow, smooth, uniform, and never, ever involves stopping, quite
    unlike the tug-of-war.  Also, the Moon's gravity never *changes*;
    even if the Moon were on the opposite side of the galaxy, its gravity
    would be the same (although from there its effect on the Earth would
    be far less than that of my little finger).
    
    It is easy to be misled into forgetting that just because the Moon
    is at its closest and fastest, does not mean that it did not reach
    its current position and speed by the same smooth, steady
    rate-of-change that it has always used.  If the position of the
    Moon contributed to the earthquake, it must be considered to be
    in the nature of straw upon straw placed on a camel's back, not as
    a steel safe suddenly dropped on the poor animal.
    
    							Ann B.

    re: .44
    
    Actually, what you say is what I was driving at.  But my
    wording was pretty poor. (I was mixing the idea "effect of
    gravity on earth" with the gravity itself.  And tug-of-war was 
    an extreme example of the point I was wanted to suggest, which was
    simply that the possibly the change of the moon's [gravity's] effect
    could [along with the other more obvious causes) trigger quakes.  Or
    something like that).
    
    Mary

	Yesterday I was listening to a "New Age" radio station out of Santa
Cruz (AM 1080) and they had a fellow on who is supposedly a county geologist
for Santa Clara County or some such title (I didn't catch the entire
interview).  Anyway, for what it's worth, this guy claims to have about a 75%
to 80% "hit rate" for earthquake predictions based on the following
observations: (1) moon in perigee and in alignment with the sun (he says this
occurs 2 to 5  times a year); (2) particulary high tides (I suppose  this is
usually a consequence of (1)); (3) dramatic increase in the number of "lost and
found" adds for animals in the newspaper.  He feels when these three things
correlate, that indicates a window of a few days during which a quake is very
likely.  His idea (although he is the first to admit he has no idea to the
validity) about the animals is that they are somehow sensitive to changes in
the earth's magnetic field and that these changes occur due to changes in the
local crust's magnetite and pizoelectric-type minerals has they get squeezed
and so forth as the pre-quake pressures and stresses are building up.  The
animals get "spooked" and run away.  As far as the "lost and found" adds, the
only other times he says he notices an increase is during times of severe
thunder storms and the Fourth of July (not too surprising that animals might
get "spooked" under these circumstances). 
 
	Just though I'd pass it along.  I'd check into this theory myself
except for just not having all the necessary information right at hand.  BTW, a
local astrologer predicted a quake today, "plus or minus a few days" . . . we
had a slight 4.4 or so a couple of days ago, hope that was the one (I heard the
prediction about a week ago).  In an earlier reply I stuck in a day or two
after the Oct. 17 quake I indicated things were getting back to normal; well,
looking back that wasn't quite true although I'd say it's pretty true now
except for a few obvious things like the Bay Bridge and 880 and, of course,
those folks who have unfortunately suffered the most.  But for the last couple
of weeks we had lots of aftershocks that apparently didn't cause too much
trouble but I can tell you EVERYONE really really was jittery and apprehensive;
kind of weird feeling, I really can't describe it . . . it's only now that I
sense this "jitteriness" wearing off of folks. 
 
							Bill 
    
    

	� ref .46 �
    This is the same person I was referring to in the base note. His
    name is Jim Berkland and he *used* to be a county geologist in the
    Santa Cruz county. He had predicted that a 3.5-6.0 would strike
    the Bay Area anywhere between Oct 14-Oct 21/89 (based on the lunar
    cycle). As we all know a 7.1 quake hit the area on Oct 17/89.
    
    Here's the interesting part ... for those who are interested. Soon
    after the Oct 17/89, with his prediction turning into reality, Jim
    Berkland saw the press focus attention on him. With the people
    still in a state of shock and trying hard to get back to normal,
    Jim went ahead and predicted another quake anywhere between 
    Nov 11-Nov 19/89 and another one in Dec/89 (once again, based on
    the lunar cycle). The county was quick to react to his predictions
    ..... they FIRED him. The reason given was that Jim is supposed
    to be county geologist and should not be predicting quake and
    instilling fear amongst people. If he want's to predict ... he may
    do so as a hobby but not while holding a post in county's office.
    This has raised a big debate. Jim has been on lot's of radio talk
    shows, etc. I guess a lot again would depend on his prediction coming
    (or not coming) true.
    
    Meanwhile, the aftershocks are still keeping the nerves jarred.
    A 4.0 aftershock at 5:30 AM yesterday morning did take a psychological
    toll. 
              
    For those who have a command on statistics, history, etc... I have
    a question. Was talking to a friend of mine and he mentioned that
    the biggest quake in US history was somewhere in the Cincinnati
    area and seems like the aftershocks lasted for nearly 2 years. Any
    truth in it ?
    � Dinesh �
    

    re: .47 (Dinesh)
    
         I think the earthquake you are referring to occurred on what
    is known as the New Madrid Fault which lies through several states,
    Tennessee-and-thereabouts.  It was guessed to be closer to a 9.0
    than 8.0.  It was supposedly felt in Washington, D.C....this occurred
    over 100 years ago.  Some people believe that that fault has a
    greater potential for damage than any other fault within the next
    50 years or so.
    
    Frederick