Conference hydra::dejavu

    
I have always been fascinated by Indian lore.  Having lived in the
West and Southwest it is particuliarly available and part of
the culture in a ceremonial sense.  The deeper meaning and spirituality
of the Native Americans I still feel is fundamentally foreign
to our "Western" minds.  The best I have done is poke around in it.

I have to agree with Joseph Campbell when he says there is no Myth
in the 20th century except for our art.  He uses the example of
Star Wars as the re-contextualizing of Myth.  Myth being the
outer boundary of wordy expression between ourselves and God.

I feel our culture has a spiritual void.  This void cannot be filled
with the mythical and spiritual values of other cultures, yet these
other cultures serve as example and point to a greater context out
of which we must charter ourselves to discover.  Discovery alone
is insufficient.

Years ago I heard Werner Erhard say: "Your realizations are useless".
That statement bothered me for some time.  I see now that a 
realization alone is meaningless until it is manafest back into
the world in an effective way.  I feel the music, art, and poetry
of the last century are these manafestations.  Yet, they seem
locked into the private world of the artists and his/her following
or the narrowness of one particular generation and then soon lost.

Maybe this culture will never have a myth of it's own.  Possibly
we are moving too fast to stop and introspect about our own nature
except in small pockets and gatherings which reek with exclusivity.
If this is really the case, what we are left with is individual
myth *and* the opportunity to communicate.  

Thus I see the power of the notesfile, the conference, networking
and similar venues as the means to experience these fractions of myth.
What we have yet to come to is an appreciation of another's myth,
we have yet to come to real communiation, and we have yet to come
to integrate another's point of view, their myth, into our own.

Larry

    Re: <<< Note 1083.14 by DNEAST::CHRISTENSENL "Keeper of the Myth" >>>
    
   > Maybe this culture will never have a myth of it's own.  Possibly we are
   > moving too fast to stop and introspect about our own nature except in
   > small pockets and gatherings which reek with exclusivity. If this is
   > really the case, what we are left with is individual myth *and* the
   > opportunity to communicate.  

    This is probably true. Myths, those collective dreams of the sleep
    walkers, have and will continue to suffer under future shock. Change in
    our society is racing along with every increasing speed. Already Intel
    has announced a cpu chipset with 2 million transistors onboard. Other
    manufacturers may have devices with higher densities. We are leaving
    the Industrial Age and heading into the Information Age with ever
    increading speed.  Future shock is here and every human mind is under
    it's icy grip.
    
    People such as Gurdjeef and Wilson tell us that humans are robots. They
    function like sleepwalking dreamers. And until the programs hibernate
    or the sleeper awakes the human will continue on in its dreaming of
    not-dreaming.
    
    Be that as it may there are still some things which we can attach our
    anchor chains too. But that's individual and personal, not collective
    and public.
                 
   > Thus I see the power of the notesfile, the conference, networking and
   > similar venues as the means to experience these fractions of myth. What
   > we have yet to come to is an appreciation of another's myth, we have
   > yet to come to real communiation, and we have yet to come to integrate
   > another's point of view, their myth, into our own.
    
    Is it possible for two robots or sleepwalkers to communicate??

    As we incorporate our discoveries and realizations into
    our beings, they become manifest in our lives.  "My life
    is my art."   Living one's life and observing/learning from
    others is how we daily communicate our discoveries and
    realizations.  "Doing is honest philosophy."
    
    I agree,music and art are how we attempt to translate 
    our discoveries and realizations into myth (and vice-versa).
    
    When the arts "fail" at this process, it can be the
    fault of the artist or the audience or both.  Communication
    is (at least) a two-party transaction, and we need to speak
    the same "language."
    
    
    Myth is a metaphor that we use to explain the unexplainable.
    I suspect that the models that we are creating to describe
    our realities are the new myths.  We live our lives in terms
    of and according to these myths.  The models of the atom, quantum 
    mechanics, and of Gaia serve us in the same ways that sun gods and earth
    mothers served our ancestors.   We just like to delude ourselves
    that our maps are really the territory.
    
    I also suspect, however, that the increasing number of myth/models
    that we are creating are together providing us with maps that we
    are using to integrate and synthesize our discoveries and
    realizations into a better understanding of [all-there-is]
    (the "unexplainable"),  and that the acceleration in
    the number of models available means that we are on the
    verge of transformation.
    
    
    /bruce
    

I got to thinking last night how I felt Native American
spirituality as well as other cultures I have run across.  I entered
a note in DEJAVU 1083.XX as sort of a reply to my own thoughts
on the matter.

My sense is whether it be power animals, chakras, crystals or
any symbolism not deeply rooted in our culture, they remain
symbols from another culture which we cannot ever fully
appreciate.  Fully appreciate, I mean be at one with, resonate with
and completely embrace the *essence* to which the symbol points.

In this culture, probably the automobile is the most prevalent symbol.
I'm not suggesting we raise the car to newfound religious heights,
and I do suggest we take stock in how much this symbol means to us.
I want to include all Western cultures including Europe under "us".

The automobile represents a right of passage, freedom from the
apron strings and a newfound responsibility.  My first credit
card came from an oil company.

Possibly the next Western symbol of importance will be the computer.
Somehow the richness and grandeur is missing.  And at the same time
I think we have a unique opportunity here to create our own symbols
after we have discovered the essence of the myth.  Interemly, there is 
nothing wrong about borrowing symbols from other cultures and we
must recognize they are not our own.

The computer may not be such a bad symbol.  Like with this note,
at a moment's notice I can put my thoughts out into the world and
obtain a response.  We can enter into a dialogue with people
all over the world in just a few seconds.  If we are wise enough,
the dialogue can be fruitful.
    
    
    L.

Re: .14

>I feel the music, art, and poetry
>of the last century are these manafestations.  Yet, they seem
>locked into the private world of the artists and his/her following
>or the narrowness of one particular generation and then soon lost.

I also feel that each one of us is an evolving work of art...and what we 
do with that, is our offering, our gift, our way of sharing with the rest 
of God.  We may claim to be victims...and that, then, is what we are 
sharing.  We may isolate or elevate ourselves to attain personal heights...
and that, is what we are sharing.  Or we may try to be fully involved with
life, being open for change, awareness, and understanding, and sharing love 
and light AS we evolve (I don't think we have to wait to do this).  It 
doesn't matter how bright our light is at the moment...only that our 
lovelight is turned on! :-)  If we're busy polishing our lamps and filling 
them with oil so that we'll have a good and bright light, that's all we're 
sharing right now.

Perhaps the world is changing in a way that myths will not be as necessary 
for us anymore.  Perhaps our art and communication will be shared and 
explored through frequencies we have not yet discovered on a massive scale.  
But if that's so, I would think that it would be our love and willingness 
to feel connected with others (not elevating our individual selves), that 
would make this possible.

My current feeling is that I could be signed up for a hundred courses, be
reading tons of books, be talking about great "truths", and sound very
"on top of it all" -- but if I don't keep myself open and accepting for 
the feeling of deep love and understanding for the rest of God right now...
then I'm on a personal game trip and fantasy.  No matter how I WANT it to 
be or appear...and no matter what I'm working "towards"...the truth is, and 
it's now.

Our greatest work of art, and passing things along, may be -- 
  being here now and loving now (in whatever form we're in).  
Perhaps we've advanced beyond the myths and art of the past...if we would 
be willing to be aware and try our hand at it.

Jerri

re: .17 (Larry)

    Carl Jung, in one of his books, talks about confusing Symbols with 
    signs.  A sign points to something whereas a symbol carries Something
    with it (I don't recall his exact words).  Your example of an automobile
    seems to me to be a sign, something that represents something else.
    A sign is local to a specific culture where a Symbol is availble to all.
    A true Symbol, therefore, can be experienced by anyone since it's essence 
    is collective.

    As far as having lost myth, I tend to disagree.

    We are living myth every day. The problem is that most of don't know it.  
    When we should be looking within, we personalize then project the 
    unconscious outward into the outer world.  This causes pain.  In terms of 
    consciousness we all begin in the world of the unconscious, the absence of
    ego-consciousness, mythologically symbolized as the Uoroboros (tail eating 
    serpent), the womb of the Great Mother (herself a mythological symbol for
    the feminine aspects of unconsciousness).  From this world we depart and 
    experience the birth of our egos (separation from the World Parents) and 
    the creation of opposites.  During this time of ego development we decide 
    who we are by bringing to consciousness the things we like or the things 
    we need, repressing the rest back into the womb.  It is here where we have 
    our first encounters with the Terrible Mother.  She lures us and tries to 
    call us back only to be devoured.  Soon we have to face her, have her tell 
    us her secrets then transform her energies (slay the dragon) and use them 
    to become who we really are and want we want to be.  All of this is told in 
    all of the myths of the world from Isis and Osiris to The Garden of Eden 
    to Revelation to Avalon to Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back.  

    Unfortunately, it's also told nightly on CNN.

    The struggle should be going on inside of us, instead we, as either
    individuals, organizations or nations project these negative energies 
    out onto other individuals, organizations or nations creating conflict 
    and wars, killing ourselves and destroying the planet we should be living 
    in harmony with.  Because of these presonalizations and projections we are 
    prevented from really knowing who lives in this world with us and we 
    create enemies.  The things we've repressed will have expression either by 
    our looking within and accepting, embracing and transforming them or by 
    the painful way of projection, non-acceptance and conflict.

    It is crucial that we begin to know our mythology and how it is being played
    out in our lives.  Until we do, individually and collectively it's going to
    be a rough ride.  
        
    Terry

re: .19

                        -< Have I myth'ed your point? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>re: .17 (Larry)
>
>    Carl Jung, in one of his books, talks about confusing Symbols with 
>    signs.  A sign points to something whereas a symbol carries Something
>    with it (I don't recall his exact words).  Your example of an automobile
>    seems to me to be a sign, something that represents something else.
>    A sign is local to a specific culture where a Symbol is availble to all.
>    A true Symbol, therefore, can be experienced by anyone since it's essence 
>    is collective.

There aren't any True Symbols.  A symbol carrys its meaning by agreement
even if the agreement resides in the collective (un)consciousness.
Transference of meaning (read communication) takes place between beings
and beings alone, not between symbols or between symbols and beings.
An artist's painting does not transfer meaning.  If effective, it
collects symbols in such a way to point towards meanings and asks
us to go take a look.

Ok, so I jumped over what now appears to be crucial step here; which
is a symbol points to an agreement (or meaning) while the meaning
points to its essence.

The transferrence of meaning with a set of agreed upon symbols is
called language.  Myth is a particular arrangement of symbols
whose meanings taken together form a pointer towards essence.

Essence is the inexplicable beyond thought, symbol, language, and 
is the source of what is.  A bowl has a particular shape: bowl-ness.
Bowl-ness points to the essence of all manner of things meant to contain.

Who you are is the essence of essence.

Gotta go  now and water my bicycle.

L.

    re: .20
    
         Does watering your gravel have anything to do with
    the Myth Univerth contest?  or were you talking about some
    sort of bowl-game?
    
    Frederick
    ;-)
    

    So then could we say that a symbol is an emotionally laden sign?
    
    I've alwys had problems distinguishing between symbols and archetypes.
    At best I think an archetype is a learned symbol that is more than a
    symbol. In essence it is a symbol that makes the difference between
    life and death. Consequently the importance is driven deeply into the
    subconscious. For instance mother is an archetype that means the
    difference between life and death.

    Frederick, (.21)
    
    I do believe that Larry is participating in the Myth Univerth contest
    in his own unique way... perhaps as the Myth-ing Link...
    
    (sorry l, couldn't help myself)
    
    --- smile --- (again),
    
    Kb
    
    
    

    It was a L-handed way of saying something mythy having to do
    fishes and their need for bicycles.  I really admire Joseph Campbells
    courage when he talks about how essential myth is for life and
    his paradoxical comment about not worshiping the myth.
    
    Myththe Christensen could not help hithself ;*)

    As Larry points out - 
    Myth defines practices, substantiates beliefs, elucidates phenomena -
    we myth the point when we worship the medium, and not the transcendent
    message...
    
    Gloria

   re: .27 (LArry)
    
      "still trying to give riding lessions to fishies"
    
      Are these fishies you're trying to give lesions to part of the
    underwater foreign lessions?
    
    Frederick
    

    
    
    One creates from nothing.
    
    If you try to create from something
    you're just changing something.
    
    So in order to create something you
    first have to be able to create nothing.
    
    To make sure a person doesn't find out
    who he/she is, convince him/her that he/she
    can't really make anything disappear.
    
    All that's left then is to resist,
    solve, fix, help or change things.
    
    That's trying to make 
    something out of something.
                               

RE: .19 (Terry)
    
    Let's not get into meaningless semantic arguments.
    
    Jung had a point, an important and very likely valid one, but he was
    *not* giving a language lesson.  Within the structure of his theories
    he felt that two related concepts which are not normally distinguished
    had to be clearly distinguished.  He choose two words which are nearly
    synonymous in ordinary and technical-within-other-contexts usage and
    arbitrarily used them to indicate his two concepts.  This in no way
    requires anyone else to use the words in the way he wished to (I
    rather strongly doubt he intended this).
    
    Within the general usage of the words, the automobile *is* a "symbol"
    within our culture and it would be rather unnatural to refer to it as
    a sign.
    
    I agree, however, that we have no lack of myths.  All that we have
    lost is some degree of the custom of a strictly oral tradition -- a
    result, I think, of both widespread literacy and technological means of
    communication (including the printing press).  The myths, in somewhat
    more varied forms, are still to be found throughout our literature,
    movies, plays, television shows, commercials, radio dramas, computer
    conferences, etc.
    
    					Topher
     

I'm re-writing .27 since I got on somewhat of a high-horse. And a
hint from a friend.

We are all part of the Whole Consciousness.  We became attracted to
some aspect of the Creation and passed through unconsciousness as the means
to make the Creation real. We forgot our wholeness and then forgot we forgot.

We needed a survival package to protect the fragile body.
Part of the survival package is individuation.  Ego is the *condition*
where the being becomes identified with its survival package.

The rest of it is all a matter of how far down-scale we have become
by becoming more identified, attached to, at the effect of our creation.
With the power of creation we can make up stuff, believe it, worse
take it outside ourselves and believe *in* it.

The symbols are as powerful as we make them and the mass agreement around
them.  Does that mean a particular amulet will ward off evil spirits?
Yes, it will.  And it becomes a dance between the persons, the symbols,
and the spirits themselves.

Is there magic?  Sure.  Can we learn and access other spheres of knowledge
with symbols, yes.  It becomes a problem when we praise the symbol instead
of that for which it stands.  When praise for a symbol becomes so common
such that we forget the meaning and the essence to which it points, the
forgetting puts the meaning into the collective unconsciousness where
it appears to take on a life of it's own.

A symbol which appears to have a life of it's own slips into our consciousness
and we begin to value it with like or dislike, positive or negative.
We have forgotten who empowered it and thus given part of ourselves
up to it.

When we take a symbol out of it's dance, out of it's context, we break
the connection with it's creator, with it's essence and it's meaning.
This symbol out of context becomes the object for rumor and superstition
and defines the true meaning of the word ignorance.

I suggest it takes a leap of faith to look upon a symbol and say:
"I made this to remind me of who I am".

Larry

RE: .30 (Topher)
    
    There you are.  I knew you were in there somewhere  ;-).

    > Let's not get into meaningless semantic arguments.

    Sure enough.  I didn't mean for it to come across that way.  I very
    much agree with your comments about Jung.  Language can, and at times
    is a real obstacle.  I meant to frame my reply within his context
    since I read Larry's reply to be coming from the same (mythological)
    point of view.  

    Terry

    re .31
    
    Larry,
    
    I only recently (consciously) entered the world of myth by finally
    picking up a few of Joseph Campbell's books:  AN OPEN LIFE and THE
    POWER OF MYTH, so I don't feel as though I can offer much dialogue on
    this topic at the time.  
    
    But what I can do is comment on the effect entering the world of
    mythology has had on me.  After reading about 4 pages of AN OPEN LIFE
    I had to put the book down, because I found myself *compelled* to write
    a personal myth about love, protection, and loyalty the source of which
    I sense is being recounted through a past life experience.  (But that
    is not really important to me.)
    
    What is, is the sense of empowerment I've gotten from writing a
    mythical story created around images, feelings, and memories from
    somewhere deep inside me.  I've also been doing a lot of artwork lately
    (from no previous experience) and expressing that which lies inside on
    paper with pastel chalks.  This has also had the same effect.
    
    As I read your note I realized that *why* the above experiences are as
    powerful as they are is that while I'm doing them and as I look at them
    afterwards I think and feel: 
    
    	{{{  "I made this to remind me of who I am". }}} 
    
    Yes,
    
    Karen
    
    
    

    
    In reading Larry's entries and now Karen's, I'm reminded of the
    Mexican surrealist artist Frida Kahlo, who created from her own life
    and from her cultural experience a very personal mythology expressed
    with great power in her paintings. 
    
    Many of these are self-portraits, whose symbols resonate far beyond the
    personal history and drama of the artist herself. Frida was married to
    Diego Rivera, himself a renowned artist, painter of gigantic murals
    that included images and symbols of the Precolumbian Indian past of
    Mexico. But whereas Frida recreated these symbols to express her own
    truths, Rivera restated them to make sweeping political statements
    about Mexico, Marxism, and more.
    
    Art historians and critics feel that while Rivera's reputation has been
    greater, it is Frida's work that will endure because of its *essential*
    mythic character. To my mind, one cannot look at her self-portraits,
    despite our partial understanding of some of the Precolumbian
    iconography, without saying "She made this to remind *us* of who *we* 
    are."  
    
    The essence of the myth-keeper's purpose, perhaps...
    
    Gloria

    
    Was it Joseph Campbell who said that we are lacking a modern myth?
    
    Anyway, I took that to mean a collective myth.  I guess there's not
    much distinction between a collective myth and a personal one. 
    Personal myth usually follows the archetypal pattern of stuff that
    has been distilled down from the collective experience - the collective
    myth.  So perhaps the personal myth is the collective myth presented
    in terms that you, the experiencer of the the myth, can more readily
    incorporate into your life.  So personal myths could be dreams, songs,
    poems, artwork,.......
    
    About the collective myth, though....   Maybe what we need is a
    collective myth that is a little more *hopeful* than some of the 
    drugery that can occur in the material world (the threat of nuclear
    war, etc.).  Perhaps UFO's are the new myth - providing hope of beings
    powerful enough to save us from our own evil ways....
    
    
    Guy

re: .33 (Karen)

    I know what you mean.  I've been painting and drawing (and a few other
    things) for years.  Art, particularily mine, is very important to me
    for the same reasons you state.  What I create comes from deep within,
    messages from me - to me.  It's a way of discovering things essential
    to my growth.  I can spend hours drawing or painting not really knowing
    where I'm going with it, then sit and look into the things I've created 
    hoping I can decode its subtle messages.  I look at my art the same 
    way I look at and work with my dreams.  The messages all come from the 
    same "place", all pieces of the Myth, and of my myth.

    If your interested in a book (by an artist) that describes this process
    and how it fits into one's personal quest for knowing using mythology, 
    read _The Painters Quest_ (I can't recall the artist's name).  It's very 
    good.

    Terry

    Re: <<< Note 1083.35 by BTOVT::BEST_G "hugging the big chemical" >>>
            -< throw out the archetypes - create new ones! >-

    Archetypes can't be thrown out. However many cultural images and urban
    myths can. So which do we toss??
    
   > Was it Joseph Campbell who said that we are lacking a modern myth?
    
    Oh, we have modern myths alright. Tons of them. So many that we can't
    keep them straight. They all run together. Many can't live without the
    American Dream, two children, bank accounts, and illusionary personal
    security.
    
    I think he said we didn't have a consensual cultural myth. Personally I
    think that's part of the process of progress. I think it serves us
    well. As part(s) of the population gets smarter, more exposed to
    different and better ideas, the consensual cultural myth complex begins
    to diminish. For that I'm glad. Why should we all dream the same
    not-dream??
                  
   > Anyway, I took that to mean a collective myth.  I guess there's not
   > much distinction between a collective myth and a personal one. 
   > Personal myth usually follows the archetypal pattern of stuff that
   > has been distilled down from the collective experience - the collective
   > myth.  So perhaps the personal myth is the collective myth presented
   > in terms that you, the experiencer of the the myth, can more readily
   > incorporate into your life.  So personal myths could be dreams, songs,
   > poems, artwork,.......
    
    I agree. It would be good to define collective though. Collective as in
    a small group of friends? Collective as in a locale? Collective as in a
    region? Collective as in a state? Collective as in a political system?
    Collective as in a nation? Collective as in a philosophy? Collective as
    in a religious system large or small?
    
    Sometimes we agree that we all operate under the same perceived
    collective myth (??) without acknowledging the perception of the myth
    is an individual and sometimes vastly different image for each person.
                                         
   > About the collective myth, though....   Maybe what we need is a
   > collective myth that is a little more *hopeful* than some of the 
   > drugery that can occur in the material world (the threat of nuclear
   > war, etc.).  Perhaps UFO's are the new myth - providing hope of beings
   > powerful enough to save us from our own evil ways....
    
    Perhaps the new collective myth should be that we all live under
    individual perceptions of collective myths?? But if we do that we still
    haven't woke up to the idea that we're still all sleepwalkers dreaming
    the collective myth is a collective myth. Nice quandry isn't it??
    
    Anyway I doubt it all. B^)
    

Re: .-1. .-2

   >> Was it Joseph Campbell who said that we are lacking a modern myth?
    
   > I think he said we didn't have a consensual cultural myth.    

   I think what he said was we don't have (have forgotten) ritual, our 
   connection to the myth, the way to "be" the myth.

   Terry   
 

    re:  last several notes
    
    Phew!  I can't adequately express the stirrings going on inside as I
    read these last few notes.  Although a new experience (or framework,
    perhaps) I am getting the sense that around the next bend of my path is
    the "vista of mythology", a place to explore in concrete symbolic,
    creative forms, (art, poetry, music, stories) a personal and collective
    mythical representation of who I/we are about.  Yikes!  (Said with
    excitement and awe)
    
    I don't even know if I'm using the "right" buzzwords or not to present
    my true meaning, but maybe someone will get my drift.  Thoughts
    evolving into asking a question of you's:  Anybody interested in
    starting a myth topic in here where the written ones could be shared? 
    I don't know really where I'm going with this - can anyone tell?
    
    Hmmm, if not a topic, anyone who might want to share their written myth
    with me, please send it via vaxmail (and I will incoporate it into my
    acreage of the collective myth and see what grows!)
    
    And Guy, I get a sense that there's a lot more hopeful myths out there
    than we realize.  Wanna join me on a myth quest?  (What we don't find,
    we can create!)
    
    Terry - THE PAINTER'S QUEST sounds like a natural next step for me. 
    Thanks for the recommendation!
    
    On with the sojourn!
    
    Karen

    re: <<< Note 1083.38 by USAT05::KASPER "Life's a gift, learn to accept it" >>>
 
   >>> Was it Joseph Campbell who said that we are lacking a modern myth?
    
   >> I think he said we didn't have a consensual cultural myth.    

   >I think what he said was we don't have (have forgotten) ritual, our 
   >connection to the myth, the way to "be" the myth.
    
    Actually I can't remember exactly what he said. However I do remember
    that he said that for the new myth to be viable it must relate the
    individual to the whole. And here he hinted at something like the Gaia
    Hypothesis.

For those interested in what Joseph Campbell said, my recommendation
would be _Myths To Live By_ which is a series of lectures by Joseph
Campbell between the early 60's and mid-70's, transcribed and edited into
book chapters. 

Jay

    Re: <<< Note 1083.39 by CARTUN::BERGGREN >>>
                       -< Wow What's happening to me!? >-

    You are having fun while on your adventure??

    
    Following your bliss?

    Yea!
    
    
    (Dance - dance - dance...!!)
    
    
    - Karen

    
    
I watched _Children of a Lesser God_ last night.  Blew me away.
The embarrassment of not being able to hear, yet functionally
being able to speak, the pride and the desire to communicate.

The phrase comes to mind: 

"The fear of embarrassment standing naked in front of the Lord".


L.

    As suggested I've moved notes over to this topic from note 1083. My
    apologies to anyone who couldn't reply to this note while I had it
    write locked. Also, there were some replies that had been deleted from
    1083 before I moved things, thus the titles saying (was note 1083.xx)
    are not all sequential.
    
    	- Bill Keefe

    re: .29
    
    "...having fun while on your adventure?"
    
    - Yes
    
    re: .30
    
    "Following your bliss?"
    
    Yes, Yes.  Feelings of mystery, awe, excitement, curiosity, ah-ha (!)
    and welcome.  Image that comes to mind... walking along a path through 
    a quiet, dark, densely foliated forest of tall pine trees (clean pine
    smell wafting through the air) and opening up to a rolling landscape of
    hills and valleys and close by a river surging - I can see the spray -
    a hawk drifting watchful overhead.
    
    It calls to be explored.  It is the journey of exploration which births
    the myth into conscious reality.  
    
    Here I go...I bet we'll see each other on the way.
    
    Karen
    
    
    

    Re: <<< Note 1127.3 by DNEAST::CHRISTENSENL "Keeper of the Myth" >>>
    
   > Thus I see the power of the notesfile, the conference, networking and
   > similar venues as the means to experience these fractions of myth. What
   > we have yet to come to is an appreciation of another's myth, we have
   > yet to come to real communiation, and we have yet to come to integrate
   > another's point of view, their myth, into our own.
    
    
    THE NETWORK IS THE MYTH!! B^)

    
    
    
    "What we have yet to come to is an appreciation of another's myth...
    and we have yet to come to integrate another's point of view, their
    myth, into our own."
    
    These words have haunted me since Larry wrote them, for as a writer
    and occasional film-maker it is my goal to do just that. But a
    continuing sense of inability to know fully another's mythology, to
    peel away that last membrane of separation between me/my perception and
    the expressions of another, frustrates me. 
    
    It is finally what made me decide to leave the study of archaeology -
    the belief that I could never really *know* what the Nicarao or the
    Mayan artist *really* meant with their depictions of anthropomorphic
    figures, serpents, quetzal birds, jaguars, the full panoply of mythic
    images captured in sculpture, on ceramic vessels, on temple walls.
    To this day I can reel off the interpretations of Precolumbian myth by
    this professor or that - but what do I really know of the awe or
    ecstacy or terror that these symbols and images engendered in the man
    or woman who lived outside Copan or Tikal or Chichen Itza? 
    All I know is the wonder that welled up in me when I beheld the 
    obsidian-black jaguar eternally crouched to pounce on his prey in a 
    dusty case in the tiny museum in Santa Rita de Copan - or the rush of 
    fear I sensed when I saw the images of self-sacrifice on the wall of a
    forgotten temple in Yucatan.
    
    Is this enough? Have the images truly become mine? And rushing back to
    the here-and-now, can I *really* walk along the path with Karen, or in 
    another, poignant epiphany, watch a young boy fly his glider in a
    late-summer cornfield and *know* the meaning of his myth?
    
    gloria
          
    

This topic about myth is great.  I've gone thru a series of changes, like
we all have I'm sure when it comes to changing our personal mythologies.
Let me share one that I have had in the past. 

The Myth of the Mystical Boddhisatva Hippie:

This one was when I lived in rural Tennessee on a commune, with 1500
other people, developing a small town in the middle of the woods,
of people who shared the same vision. We looked at our community as
the battleship of the fleet, that was on the edge of new territory
exploring a non-violent,communal,environmentally sound lifestyle, that
if adopted by the larger society, would help in many ways towards
solving alot of problems within the greater culture. 

We kind of had the idea of being hippie pioneers OUT TO SAVE THE WORLD!
Yeah it all sounds pretty ridiculous in the present context of time...
but the idealism, I think was pure. We felt like that we had a similiar
effect as the Transcendental Meditation folks...when we 7 or 800 of us
did zazen on Sunday Mornings, that the vibrational effect was like 
rainfall on a dry forest. That we were vibrationally a healing to people
close by to us, and to the nation as a whole. That was one myth...I could
go on...and on... :-}      

 Agreed, I think, is the idea that those considered "NEW AGE"
people, are starting to have an outward journey, that for years now 
has been solely inward. We are starting to engage our ideals and principles  
as a way to transform society,and it's people and the planet to a 
greater harmonious whole. Why we are all here in this present time frame,
is a way the mythology of our culture is being slowly transformed, to
one that is not only broadcast on TV nightly news. A mythology that everything
is not crack cocaine, drug wars, airline crashes, and polluted waste, here
to slowly wipe us all out. But a mythology that envisions our personal paths
merging to a wider path that includes the healing of the nation and its
people. That's how I see the New Age Myth which alot of us are involved
in starting to develop. Which is really something to be thankful for...to
have something to do in life, that can make a positive difference.

-Arthur                                

    
    re: way back (Mikie)
    
    I didn't REALLY mean to change the archetypes.  I was kidding.  I think
    they're kinda "homey."
    
    :-)
    
    re: a few back (Karen Bergren)
    
    Sure!  Let's start a Posi-Myth Search!  Where do we begin looking?
    
    :-)
    
    Guy

    
    I'm finding it a real good challenge to express in words that
    continually evolving sense of "awe" that these myth notes are giving
    me.  But let me give it a shot.
    
    Re: .34 (Gloria)
    
    I'd like to offer my thoughts on your frustration of experiencing "a
    continuing sense of inability to know fully another's mythology, to
    peel away that last membrane of separation between me/my perception and
    the expressions of another."
    
    I know this next point can be discussed from now till eternity, but for
    the sake of my discussion I'd like to use the following concept as the
    cornerstone of my discussion:  Our consciousness is pretty much focused 
    in physical reality;  therefore a condition or element of physical
    reality is the experience of "seperatness".  Beyond physical reality,
    other realities probably have a lesser degree of seperateness, which we
    can experience from time to time in various ways.
     
    Because of the nature of physical reality, we may not be able to
    connect as deeply with another person on this level, as we might aspire
    to, although we may know/sense somewhere in our "collective" reality
    there is a point of oneness.
    
    Given this, Gloria, in your question "Is this enough?", simply in
    having certain feelings, images, thoughts evoked within yourself by 
    sharing in someone else's myth, to me, *is* enough - For the simple
    reason that from that moment on you will never be the same person
    again.  By sharing in another's myth, how can we *not* be transformed in
    some way?   What incredible creative energy!  What incredible power!
    
    For me what happens, (as it does in this notes file everyday) is that
    for lack of a better word, an *essence* of all that is shared enters my
    consciousness and it gets distilled then is sent onward to hitherto
    unknown destinations within my beingness which also resides (of course)
    within the One and collective unconscious as well.
    
    I sense this process serves as a way of connecting with another in ways
    its difficult to totally fathom.  In your experience of fear when you
    saw the images of self-sacrifice on the walls of a temple in Yucatan
    is a connection.  The raw energy of fear is fear, regardless of how
    many *different* people are feeling it.  But who knows, maybe the
    artist did not feel fear when creating the drawing, but I doubt it, in
    such a powerful ritual such as self-sacrifice.
    
    To use another anology, I get the image of eating food.  Although you
    may take potatoes (things seperate from you) and consume them, don't
    some part of them end up in every cell of your body?  So it is with the
    transformative response that happens to us when we share another's
    myth.  The essence of that transforming energy permeates and nourishes
    our entire being.  We are never the same again...and vice versa.  My
    sharing my myths with you establishes a connection and transforms me in
    a way that I'll never be the same.  Whatever I do, think, or feel from
    that moment on will have an essence of Gloria somewhere in it.
    
    So yes, we can walk along the path together and share each other's myth
    and know that the essence of each of us is embodied somewhere within.
    ...here let me show you this great little gazebo I found over here -
    it's got a great view too!  Let's talk.
    
    Karen
    
    P.S.  What does "Acqua nel deserto" mean?
    

    "Acqua nel deserto" probably means lots of things to lotsa peepills...
    but to me it either means Nel is using Aqua Velva as dessert or
    maybe Nel deserted the acqua (and left it for someone else to clean
    up...shame on Nel!) or maybe it means that the Acqua wasn't appropriate
    for human consumption at this time.
    
    Frederick
    ;-
    

    re: .35 (Arthur)
    
    Couldn't the *Mystical Boddhistatva Hippie Out To Save The World* 
    (or you, for short) be likened to one face of The Hero With A Thousand 
    Faces?  Ridiculous?  Not to me.  The energy essence that created that
    face can (and is?!) evolving to create another "face".  Isn't it?
    
    I also like how you blended into the New Age Myth using the image of
    our personal paths merging into a wider path that includes the healing
    of the nation and its people... (and also the world).
    
    re .36 (Guy)
    
    Awright!  Our Posi-Myth search has begun and look what happened!  One
    just came by and dropped in our lap!  (re:  The Myth of The Boddhisatva
    Hippie)
    
    - Karen
    
    

    Painter's Quest: Art as a Way of Revelation    is by Peter Rogers,
    currently in paperback ($16.95) from Bear & Co.
    
    Also, some of you might be interested in   The Lotus and the Pool:
    How to Create Your Own Career   by Hilda Lee Dail.
    
    from the back cover:
    
    "This book offers a totally new, holistic approach to career
    development, involving the wisdom of the unconscious--expessed in
    dreams, symbols, personal myths, intuitions, and memories--as well
    as the analytical skills needed to set goals and plan strategies.
    ...
    Based on the principles of creativity as revealed in the world's
    creation myths and in the techniques of artists, poets, and inventors,
    the book presents a ten-step process of creative career development."
    
    (It seems to fit the theme...)
    
    Sherry

    

    Note 1127.39
    
    Karen
    
    Yes that idea of evolving myths going on and evolving into
    newer faces is an interesting idea. This eternal spiritual
    energy always changing  but still remaining the same is a
    fascinating facet. It sure aids in keeping me stoked about
    understanding where I am in the bigger scheme of things.
    
    -Arthur

    
    
    In response to your note (.37) Karen: 
    
    Here, on a Sunday evening when I've been trying to write words for
    three vice-presidents to recite sometime next week, I read your entry
    and I'm reminded of the words of one of the gods in my mythic pantheon,
    Wallace Stevens. In a poem "Notes Toward A Supreme Fiction" in which he
    wrote 
    
                There was a myth before the myth began,
                Venerable and articulate and complete
    
    he also wrote (more or less, I'm quoting from memory here)
    
                The partaker partakes of that which changes him
                The child that touches takes character from the thing,
                The body, it touches. The captain and his men
                Are one and the sailor and the sea are one.
                Follow after, O my companion, my fellow, my self, 
                Sister and solace, brother and delight.
    
                                ******************
    
    "Acqua nel deserto" is a phrase from an Italian song, the original of a
    less than felicitous translation into a disco hit by Laura Brannigan
    entitled "Gloria". In the Italian version, much less frenetic and 
    far more passionate, a man describes Gloria as his solace, "chiesa in
    campagna, acqua nel deserto" - a church in the country, water in the
    desert. The song was quite popular, so just as my friends in the U.S.
    often greet me by singing out from Them/The Doors "G-L-O-R-I-A",
    so my Italian friends sing "Gloria - acqua nel deserto". 
    
    A micro-minute from my myth
    
    G  

This is by no means an endorsement of the est training, nor a suggestion
than anyone become affilitated with it or any of its organizations.

I did the est training in October of 1974.  For me it was a powerful
and moving experience.  Moving to such an extent, that I assisted
with the organization for several years afterward.  It worked, produced 
results both public and personal.  Looking back now, one of the most
profound results was the manner in which I raised my children and 
my relationship with them today.

What does this have to do with myth.  Once I heard the phrase (in the training)
"Children are people in little bodies".  I stoppped operating out of
my pattern of child-rearing as taught to me by my parents, and their
parents before them with disasterous results.  I stopped spanking
my children, I stopped belittleing them as means to subjugate and
contol their behaviors which might embarrass me.

Myth talks about truthful matters from one's own point of view.  This
myth separated my concept of "people" from my concept of children.
My mother used to call me "a little shit".  Lord knows what I did with 
that or how much therapy it will take to exterminate that worm
running around in my subconscious.  

I have said it before and recently also: "Having children is like
an 18 year prison term".  See it's still there.  Who wants to be locked
up in the same rooms for 18 years with someone else?  Well, come to
think of it, it might be just ok if it was with someone with whom
I had a loving relationship.

So that is the crux of it.  This piece of modern myth, children as
people too, breaks up the notion, eventually, of children being
somethings to be tolerated rather than humans to have relationship
with.

Relationships. Oh, those have not been too successful either.  I'll
ponder that for another reply.

L.

re: .-1

>So that is the crux of it.  This piece of modern myth, children as
>people too, breaks up the notion, eventually, of children being
>somethings to be tolerated rather than humans to have relationship
>with.

Hopefully regarding children as people will also begin to do away
with parents treating the child as a possession without feelings
or memory, which maybe will in turn stem the ever increasing numbers
of child sexual abuse and child battering cases in our enlightened
world.

alison

    
    In the Grimm fairy tale co-authored by my parents, children were
    chattel, possessions to be whipped into the form that best reflected
    their success at transcending their own pasts. My father effected this
    with me by alternately (and never quite predictably) giving and 
    witholding his attention/love/affection. My mother used much harsher
    means.
    
    As an adult, I determined to rewrite the story, to create a new tale of
    love, respect, and caring. But oh, how difficult at first! When my
    children were born (two daughters, 11 months apart) I was uneasy and
    distant with them at the start. They were like little Martians come to
    stay with a wary Earth-person, or perhaps I was the Martian, freon
    running through my veins (so I thought, viewing other mothers with
    their infants). Then they, or I, or all of us, changed - and I saw them
    as people - six or seven month old people, but individuals nonetheless.
    I'd always talked to them in the same way I talked to the adults in my
    life, but at some point in that first year of their lives, I recognised
    that their responses to their environment weren't all that different
    from those of my friends - love, patience, reason, and calm went a long 
    way with everyone. 
    
    So as time went on and they grew, there was watchful caring, but never 
    imprisonment. There were rules, but never without reasons for them. 
    There were boundaries, and there were penalties for overstepping them, 
    but we negotiated both the boundaries and the penalties. And above all,
    my children were under no obligation to fulfill my unfinished dreams
    and fantasies. Instead, they were free to share the adventures I
    undertook, whenever and wherever I wandered and wondered.
    It was a conscious effort, it was work, and fundamentally, it was a 
    creative endeavour for me, since I was flying without a manual, by the 
    seat of my pants - and (as a single parent) flying solo for the most 
    part.
    
    Now my daughters have children of their own, and my tale has another
    chapter in the writing. What fun now to have new young friends to play
    with, to sit on the floor and draw pictures with, to plant flowers
    and see the stars with, to share the wealth of experience that life 
    offers. Of course it's not as much work, since I'm not the parent and
    I've already put the plot together - but it still means being there,
    and paying attention, and listening, and most of all, loving without a
    second's thought about getting something in return. And now, it's that
    lesson I take from my experience with the very young people in my life,
    and bring it to my relationships with the not-so-young...
    
    But, as Larry says, that's another story ...
    
    Gloria
    
          

    
    Reading the first paragraph of my earlier entry and realising that 
    another tale will become part of my personal mythology when I've at 
    last let go of the sadness and anger that remains tangled in the 
    memories of my childhood, when I've integrated those personalities 
    that once saved me and now still make occasional guest appearances when 
    things get dicey. Remembering one of the tougher lessons from the Course 
    in Miracles - and it should be so easy - 
                    Forgiveness is the key to happiness.

    
    
    And children, also, remind us of who we are. I suggest, as we begin
    to recognise adult behavior with children around us, we also begin
    resolve the child within.
    
    A myth which transforms: a child engaged, ourselves resolved.
    
    l.
    
    hey fred, wanna get pregnant!

    re: .48 (Larry)
    
         Pregnant?  I sure wouldn't mind fertilizing some ideas I have...
    they could use a little "nourishment" to enrich them.  Perhaps an
    egg has little value in simply being a concept without action 
    (the act of conception.)  An unfertilized egg never (never?) grows,
    does it?  And we all know how much good fertilizer has when it isn't
    in its "proper" place. ;-) Spirochetes to the fore!  Love stations, love
    stations! (battle stations, battle stations!  ??)  Assume the 
    position!  (This means accept the nurturing and nourishing of your
    own egg of idea, in this context...)  
         I had a dream just a week or so ago (or maybe a nightmare?) that
    Dana (my girlfriend) had a baby (mine, for all you cynics.)  My thought
    in the dream was sort of "oops, another 20 years of..."  (And when I
    told Dana she just wanted to know what the baby looked like.  :-) )
         I'm not ready for more children, thank you.  I have far more than
    I am comfortably handling in dealing not only with "real live" children
    (Dana's) and dealing with feelings on how I "raised" my own son, but
    I also have serious issues to work on in resolving problems and 
    difficulties with my own child and adolescent within.  So, no thanks,
    Larry, if it's me you're talking to, no, I don't want to get
    pregnant...something to do with uncertainty with the soil or something.
    
    Frederick
    

    As *inspired* means to be filled with the breath of God, so
    does *pregnant* mean to be filled with the richness of ideas.
    This Idea, and idea whose time has come, that it is no longer
    necessary to repeat our past and transfer this past into our future
    is about to make its name known.
    
    I suggest that the name of this Idea is: "We do make a difference".
    
    L.

Larry (.43), Gloria (.46), Frederick (.49),

>>I have said it before and recently also: "Having children is like
an 18 year prison term".<<

Wow, I just had this conversation with a close woman friend yesterday. 
We had just been to a pressure-point/polarity healing session and I 
guess that kind of thing brings up lots of repressed feelings.  At 
lunch over a couple of drinks we got to talking about children and I 
said I had been thinking a lot lately that I might want another baby 
(ok maybe its the old biological clock ticking away, I don't know).  
Her reaction was shock and she said 'why would you possibly want to 
put yourself into a 20 year prison like that?'

    I don't see it like that.  My two kids have been the greatest source 
    of joy in my life, I've loved watching them grow.  I smiled as I read
    your note Gloria because that is how I raised mine too.  From day one
    when I looked in my son's eyes, I thought 'uh, oh, here is a very wise
    'old' soul and all I can do is guide him the best I can; the rest is
    up to him'.

    Yup, it is all in one's perspective.  My friend thought that would be 
    the worse thing that could happen to me at my age and yet I couldn't view
    it that way.  I'm the same woman who swore she'd never have a child
    after 30!!!  Oh well, probably just a passing phase....

    Ro


    

    re: .39  The Mystical Boddhistatva Hippie/Arthur (just don't ask me to
             pronounce that)
    
    Something else occured to me that connects with The Hero With A
    Thousand Faces.  Aren't we *all* heros/heroines?  I haven't read the
    book yet, so maybe this is an aspect of what Joe Campbell presents.
    
    But for the heck of it, I'll continue.  Arthur's Mystical B-Hippie face 
    is one face of him as "the hero".  Just as whatever he does for work
    today, might be called another face.  And where our paths take us and
    who we become in the future, may be considered as
    yet_to_be_discovered_faces of the same hero/heroine.  
    
    So what's the basis of the energy that animates all these faces? 
    What's the connection?  Maybe it's the quest for wholeness, peace,
    love, healing that sources all these faces;  the quest for
    re-discovering our connections to THE Hero/Heroine...?
    
    More related musings:  When I was 18 I recall one of my mythical
    faces... I wanted to be the best female drag racer in the
    Northboro/Marlboro area.  I had this 1970 fire orange read Camaro,
    totally stock, and I invested a great deal of time and energy in
    challenging other fellow drag racers to contests of driving skill.  I
    did become the *best* female driver around.
    
    Now mind you, I oftentimes manifested this activity with very little good
    judgement.  I drank and raced and it was always on public roads or
    highways.  I was wild and loose.  And not too smart in how this face
    expressed herself.  But, the energy that motivated that particular
    face, simply wanted to be the Best at something and feel good about 
    herself, although it seemed like a pretty crazy and twisted way to do it.  
    
    There's also another mystical face in my past that was the Let_Me_
    Explore_My_Reality_Through_Drugs face.  But again looking back, that
    was another quest for wholeness. 
    
    (And how about the Less_Than_Adequate_Parent face that some of us
    have?)
    
    The basic energy of this heroine wants to be whole and complete. 
    Aren't all of our mythical faces engaged in this quest, however they
    manifest themselves?!  And aren't each of us then perhaps one face 
    of *THE* Hero/Heroine (God/Goddess/All-that-is)?  And is *THE* 
    hero/heroine involved in the same quest?
        
    So we don't have to feel bad about our mythical faces, or that they're
    not relevant, or were ridiculous in some way.  It's just one face of a
    HERO/HEROINE WITH A THOUSAND FACES, mind you.  (Or maybe in some cases,
    it's 47 faces of the hero.)  
    
    In any event, the important thing to reflect upon is the energy and intent
    at the source of all our faces.  
    
    And, *what* is the quest?  If we know what the quest is, then maybe we 
    can see our less_than_perfect faces in a new light...
    
    Karen                                    
    
       
    
    

    
    
It has occurred to me the difference which makes one person beautiful
and another not is the truly beautiful people are living just
slightly out of themselves.  People who have shifted out of me
centered to you-and-me centered radiate a beauty.  They don't have
to do anything or say anything special, it is just their ground of
being is not 100% locked up in self-serving modes.  I even suggest
a lot of these beautiful people don't realize their shifed consciousness.
They have not spent time looking for it.

I suggest one cannot go "do" beautiful or find good deeds.  There are
no self-help courses available in this area and if there were,
my guess is these courses would be models of pretense and hypocrisy.
And what I think is wanted and needed is the myth which creates
the context called you-and-me.

Ideas?

L.

    Reply to .53, Larry,
    
    There is one already which is evolving in certain communities.
    
    Almost everyone has heard of the Gaea Hypothesis. It's now becomeing
    the Gaea Myth.
    
    Otter Zell of CAW originally dreamed up the Gaea myth. Some other
    person wrote a book on it. Can't remember his name right now.
    
    Otter Zell has improved on this framework by adding that humanity is
    the analog of reproductive organs for Gaea. The physical makeup of the
    human body contains elements taken soley from Gaea herself. And at
    sometime in the future we will arrive on other worlds with Terraformer
    type engineers. In short we will create another Gaea.
    
    Approaching your question the myth says that everything alive or
    not-alive is a portion or extension of Gaea. Combining this with the
    non-local nature of information, not only physical but genetic, we can
    hypothesize a myth wherein our thoughts are Gaea's thoughts, our doings
    are Gaea's doings and our relationships are Gaea's relationships.

Note 1127.53             

Larry,    
    

I suggest one cannot go "do" beautiful or find good deeds. 

**** Why not Larry? I don't understand. Say somebody works under the
**** hypothesis of serving the greater good of all humanity...with
**** no regard to race, color ,creed ,class or place of birth. I mean
**** if G_D wanted anything, as far as my imagination goes...the
**** God/Goddess/All-that-is would like the idea of trying to solve
**** some of the crisis situation mankind is facing. Such as 
**** good deeds like feeding the hungry, healing the sick, helping
**** the depressed to laugh, sheltering the homeless...don't you
**** think G_D would be interested in those concerns as a mythological
**** archetype?

no self-help courses available in this area and if there were,
my guess is these courses would be models of pretense and hypocrisy.

**** Well...I don't know about that. Not that particularily I am a 
**** Bible reader or anything...but I always thought that Jesus had
**** it together...and some of the courses he taught weren't filled
**** for me any pretense and hypocrisy. The church yeah...

And what I think is wanted and needed is the myth which creates
the context called you-and-me.
      
**** The myth I had going was evolved around "you-and-me". Trying to
**** house and feed hungry Mayan Indians in Guatemala after the
**** earthquake in Manaqua...teaching people about the dangers of
**** Nuclear Power and radiation...being a nice and friendly alert
**** and together kind a guy around people... things like that...those
**** thoughts had alot to do with the idea of you-and-me....I think :-}

**** I'm just speaking from my own personal experience and don't want
**** to sound like I am defending anything...because I don't feel like
**** your attacking anything. 

-Arthur                                                                

    re: .53 (Larry) & .54 (Morgan)
    
    I think you've hit on something important, creating a you-and-me myth,
    that seems to be contained in the Gaia (or Gaea ?) myth.  But it's a
    myth I'm motivated and inspired to take action on, not just talk about.  
    
    What would this look like?  I'm not sure yet.  I'm picturing some form
    of group get together of like-minded folks, maybe to share personal
    myths, do artwork, drumming, dancing, singing, (whatever) from
    time to time.  I know just talking about it won't satisfy this urge I have.
    
    Does anyone want to build on that?
    
    - Karen
          

    Reply to .56, Karen,
    
    	The Church of All Worlds is ALREADY building upon this foundation.
    If you like I can post their address and and GREEN EGG subscription
    information.

    re: .57 (Already being worked on!)
    
    Thanks for offering The Church of All Worlds - yes, I'd be very
    interested in finding out more about them.
    
    - Kb
    

    Re: .56 (Karen)
    
    Regarding the idea of a group getting together for artwork, drumming, 
    dancing, and singing...
    
    I'd be into that!!  
    
    (Reminds me of a Grateful Dead show! ;-)
    
    Jerri

    
    
    Re: getting together....
    
    I'd be interested in this get-together also.
    
    Carole

    Jerri (.59) & Carole (.60)
    
    About getting together - great!  I'll even offer my place for us to
    myth around in.  For those of you who don't know, it's in Northboro,
    easy to find, right outside the center of town off of Rt. 135.
    
    - Karen