Conference hydra::dejavu

    I meant this to be a reply to 8.  I don't know how to move it but
    will gladly do so if someone tells me how.
    
    Thanks
    

    
    I'm not sure if there is a note here on possession, but perhaps this
    deserves a topic of its own.
    
    Scott Peck M.D. believes that possession is real and talks about it
    in his book "People of the Lie".  You might want to check this out or
    find someone who has *experience* with exorcisms - not just your
    average priest.
    
    Guy
    

    Good Morning Kathy,
    
    It is possible that this entity has attached itself to her electro-
    magnetic field......as I explained in note 1034, when one uses the
    Ouija Board one opens their chakras and electromagnetic field to the
    discarnate entities in the Astral Plane....they (the entities provide
    information, which may be valid or may not, in exchange for the
    person's light and vibratory energy)....in other words ,this is
    tantamount to possession.....It then uses her energy field to manifest
    its show of strength.   
    
    Have to go to a meeting but will write more later today!  
    
    In Light I AM,
    Zeffel
    

    Re. .2 - Thanks for the suggestion.  I'll have to look for the book.
    
    Re. .3  all of this is new to me.  Can you tell me how she can make
    it go away?  I went back and read your notes in 1034.*.  Do you
    think a walk-in would help her?
    
    Any help/advice will be greatly appreciated!!
    
    Kathy

    re: .0 (Kathy)
    
         I do not believe there is anything outside of oneself unless one
    puts it there...however, this is not usually done consciously as is 
    evidenced by the realities we have woven.  This is another way of
    saying that everything is illusion except our own feelings.  This 
    is a way to tell you that while this manifestation is apparently
    real, ultimately it isn't.  How does this information help?  Probably
    not too much at the moment.  What needs to happen, though, is that
    steps begin to be taken to make all of this "unreal" once again.
    Astral level beings exist THERE, as they do in our dreams.  Only we
    can empower them HERE (as we can make our dreams come true.)  Since
    the Ouija is a great device for attracting lower level astral beings
    (i.e., not very evolved beings...in human form they would be pirates,
    thieves, con artists, etc., etc.) then the first step might be to avoid
    the board.  The next step might be to command the malevolent energy to
    return to it's domain.  This might have to be repeated often.  Why?
    For starters, the negative ego is having a field day with this.  Most
    of this situation is being maintained by the negative ego.  Negative
    egos are insidious and repetitive.  It will continue to hit you with
    "thought" after "thought" that one is possessed, that one is
    undeserving, that one is scum, that one is doomed, that one is...(fill
    in your own negative ego fantasy here.)  One of the best techniques for
    dealing with negative ego is simply to run screaming at it
    (meditationally or mentally) and telling it to shut the **** up!   Can
    you do this?  Sure, but it won't help your sister.  She has to deal
    with her own negative ego.  Can she be helped with it?  Of course, but
    again, she has to allow the help...as she has allowed this particular
    reality.  Is she abnormal or strange because of all of this?  Not
    really.  We all have something that our negative egos attach
    to...whether it's shame or guilt or blame or hate, etc., we all are
    quite normal in our "abnormalities."  Her situation may not be as
    common to us in our realities or understandings, but it's just as
    valid as ours.  The point is not to treat her as weird, but rather
    as more unusual.  The same kinds of help are available to her as to
    the rest of us.  At this point she is more psychically attuned than
    most of us and unfortunately has settled for entities or energies that
    are not helpful (they get a "charge" out of our panic, misfortune,
    etc.)  Can they really hurt her?  No, not *really*.  She can be hurt,
    but again, she is giving that power away from within herself.  
         Did you see the movie "Forbidden Planet"?  It came from a book
    called "Altair 6" or something like that.  As is usually the case, the
    book is better than the movie.  In any case, towards the end we come
    to realize that the "beast" is actually a manifestation of the negative
    energy projected by the genius in the story (Walter Pidgeon is the
    movie.)  This is somewhat similar to what is happening with your
    sister.  This energy cannot exist without your sister's help, whether
    wittingly or unwillingly.  She can be helped.  This can be overcome.
    Don't panic...priests, etc. are not necessary unless her belief systems
    are firmly grounded in that realm.  There are probably several notes
    in DEJAVU with information that can be useful...you have lots of
    reading to do to uncover this.  IT all depends on levels of beliefs
    and willingness to change.  I am sure most of us in here are willing
    to help to the extent that we can.  Have courage and confidence!
    
    Frederick
    

    I'm going to step on some toes this time, I'm afraid, so I won't try
    to tone it down but to say what I mean straight out.  Please *don't*
    read into this more than I mean -- there is no disrespect here for
    other people's beliefs...

    You will find in this conference two distinct philosophies (and a lot
    of variations and intermediate philosophies, of course).  One is that,
    basically, truth is what you want it to be, the other is that truth
    just *is*, and while we have some effect on the physical world, and
    while we can perceive that underlying truth from different perspectives
    the truth is what it is and we must learn by seeing not by wishing
    (sorry that I gave the latter philosophy more air: it is my own and
    therefore easier for me to talk about without risk of
    misrepresentation).

    I am speaking from that latter viewpoint only here.  If you believe
    that growth is found in learning about what the Universe *is* rather
    than discovering what you want the Universe to be, then I am speaking
    to you.  If you believe the latter, then I am not qualified to speak.

    The Ouija board appears to be moved by unseen forces.  In fact,
    although the operators themselves are really and truly unaware of it
    most of the time (perhaps all of the time, but we can never state
    *always* as a physical fact) the board is moved by the hands of the
    operators.  The physical evidence for this is very, very strong.

    Since the operators are unaware of the fact that they are moving the
    board it follows that the aspect of the operators which is moving the
    board is their "subconscious".  The subconscious is truly a strange
    place and there are many mysteries which are unsolved about it.

    That the board is moved by means of the operators subconscious does
    not say where the "personalities" and information comes from.  While
    there is some evidence to believe that very, very occasionally the
    source of at least the information is outside the "self" most of the
    time it comes from within the person.  The Ouija speaks with the
    operators own voice, distorted, frequently with some aspect completely
    removed leaving an evil unbalanced by good (or a good unbalanced by
    evil), but recognizable to those who have learned to listen through
    the distortions.

    There are many reasons people are drawn to the Ouija Board; most of
    them healthy or neutral.  But it seems that people who are starting
    to suffer from some form of "psychosis" are drawn to it as an outlet
    for what is in their own mind trying to get out.  They are able
    to "externalize" some aspect of their illness and therefore, for a
    while, to cope with it.  Unfortunately what helps when the problem
    is still mild, can add to the problem as/if it gets more severe.  They
    "know" that "evil" they are facing is external to them -- since they
    have seen it act in the board separate from themselves -- and therefore
    it is useless to resist it where in fact it lies, within themselves
    (please note: I believe that most if not all psychosis comes from things
    which are wrong with the *brain* not with the mind, even if, in a
    particular case we don't know enough to recognize just what is wrong;
    but until the brain can be healed, the symptoms in the mind must be
    fought).

    The board becomes an obsession, and is blamed for their problems and
    even for their actions.

    The TV's falling on her child are an example of "poltergeist
    phenomena".  Poltergeists also come from the subconscious -- from rage
    contained within.  There are two ways that poltergeist phenomenon
    occurs.  One (which some, but not me, claim is the only way) is that
    the person "fakes" it, sometime in very clever ways, frequently without
    being aware of what or how they have done it.  It is as if they are
    sleepwalking or hypnotized when the "set it up".  The other way is
    by something mysterious which we give the name of PK; the ability of
    the (subconscious) mind to sometimes directly manipulate the physical
    world.

    I think that the best thing you can do for her is to talk to a good
    psychiatrist.  I said *you* not her.  You have a problem too; though
    it is not psychosis, or neurosis.  It is that you are in a situation
    which *you* don't know how to cope with.  In particular I would talk
    to a psychiatrist (or other knowledgably counselor, I'm using the
    term generically) as to whether destroying the board, with her
    knowledge that your are doing it, would be likely to help or hinder
    her coping with her illness.

    So much for my thoughts and advice -- please, please, let us know how
    her child is.  And I certainly hope that her new treatment helps;
    goiter is now quite rare in the "developed countries" and its appearence
    is very unlikely to be a coincidence -- I think that you should be
    encouraged that if she can hold out just a while longer that she will
    start getting better.

    					Topher

    Re. .5 & .6
    
    Thanks for your comments.  My own gut feel is exactly that which
    you both said.  I believe she has so much stashed away in her
    subconscious that this is an "out" for her.  She destroyed the board
    back in January just prior to being hospitalized, but thinks about
    it constantly.  She seems obsessed with death (hers) and that harm
    will come to her children if she doesn't. I'm afraid this may point
    to an unconscious wish to attempt suicide.  So much so that the hospital
    wanted to have the children removed from the home.  Unfortunately,
    her husband is of no support at all.  The more she tries to convince
    people that she's possessed, the more they tell her she is crazy,
    thus the more she tries to prove it.
                                                 
    She has been to see a psychiatrist.  He doesn't think she needs
    therapy.  He also doesn't know all the things she may be mentally
    escaping from (unhappy, abusive childhood, physically abusive husband,
    etc......)  I've been considering trying to talk to him (psychiatrist).
    
    Frederick - I think you hit the nail on the head with some of your
    comments.  She talks about how bad she is (she's really not) all
    the time, mostly through this "other person".  He supposedly tells
    her what an awful person she is.
                                                                           
    She is so convincing with the things she comes out with that she
    has all of us wondering if she really is possessed.
    
    I think I'll try to get her to go back and see the therapist.
    
    By the way, she went to someplace in Boston to have an exorcism
    performed but they told her she was not possessed, or whatever the
    correct terminology is.
    
    Thanks for the encouragement.
    
    Kathy

    re: .7 
    
         Kathy, a little mid-course maneuver here...have her, if she is
    willing, go see *a* therapist, not *the* therapist...the person she
    went to before is being overly generous or cavalier.
    
    .6 (Topher)
    
         I don't know whose toes you may have been stepping on but they
    certainly weren't mine.  Actually, I agree with much of what you wrote.
    Where I differ is in that I see your statements as a subset of
    something larger, that's all...and it's a something you presently 
    don't totally acknowledge.  But I *DO* get a kick out of one thing
    you said...that there seems to be some sort of telekinetic power or
    whatever.  I think it's funny when people can allow for this much
    but somehow can't quite reach past it.  I hope you don't take offense
    at my saying this...but it's just funny because it really *is* an
    acknowledgement of something beyond the physical, and that's
    flattering, coming from a scientist such as yourself.  And if I
    read your words correctly, we agree that everything ultimately comes
    from within.
    
    Frederick
    

    
    
    re: .5 (me)
      
         ...that should have read (Walter Pidgeon's part *in* the movie)...
    
    Frederick
    

    
What the hey.  I've felt chased by manovlent entities before.  Some
of them were my parents and childhood enemies.  So it's first
things first: get rid of the boogie man by what ever means that works.
If Mr. T wants to call it subconscious and Mr. W wants to call
it lower-astral, no matter; anywho it's all the same.

Finding the right person to help her is now the problem.

I wrote this a while ago.  Like Topher, have had reservations about
entering it into the notesfile.



	There is a basic premise I'd like to make:  Nothing in this
physical universe has any magical power.  People *can* have power.

	I have a physical body.  It won't walk through walls.
That-which-is-me, not identified with physicality, is unsubject
to the laws of the physical universe.  To the degree I have 
identified myself with physicality, I am at the effect of physicality.

	In the every-day practical world, I am, in part, identified
with the world at large.  If I take on a stone, a crystal, an amulet
or any article and give myself to it, give my power over to it and
hold it outside and separate from myself; it will "appear" to have
power of it's own and I could even consider those powers magical.
I can forget I gave the article power which now means the object
can have power over me. I might have done this a long time ago.

	Again, chants are useful, mandalas are useful, incense,
pyramid's, and the whole cornucopia of metaphysic, esoteric, spiritual,
and yes, even occult doo-dads are useful.  Interemly, they are interesting
even fascinating at times.  Whole nations and cultures are effectivly
in agreement and throughly identified with magical qualities of
certain objects, rituals and practices.

	There is a story about an anthropologist who showed the chief of a
primitive tribe the chief's own picture taken months before by 
a passing photographer.  The chief turned the picture every which
way and that and asked the anthropologist what all the little
black and white dots were supposed to represent.

	Reality exists by agreement and agreement alone.  For one to be
at "effect" of another's reality, both parties must become in 
agreement about the reality.  Unfortunately what has happened
is the human race has become an automatic agreement machine.

	I doubt very much that I am going to recover my "power" from
this local reality (read agreement).  And I prefer, if I have a choice
in the matter, not go give who I am over to my creation.

Larry

    DO NOT Take HER BACK TO THE SAME THEROPIST/PSYCOLOGIST(sp)!!!!!
    
    She needs to see a different person. Probably a female professional.
    Someone with a background in Jungian Psycology.  Someone who has dealt
    with the personal problems you have hinted at. 
    A counselor who will deal gently and lovingly with someone who's
    self esteem has severly injuried.
    
    She didnot get this way overnight (or even since the board was around),
    she is not going to come back overnight.
    
    Curtis (disclaimer follows -- This is a personal not professional
    opinon)

    In fairness to her current psychologist, I have to add this.
    
    She only recently switched over to him.  At the point in time when
    she switched, she seemed to be doing much better.  I have a feeling
    that all he knows is this person was diagnosed as manic depressive
    /psychotic and he is not seeing evidence of the same.  She has started
    lying about the voices, etc... so I suspect he doesn't know the
    entire story.  A very close friend of mine sees him, and highly
    recommends him.  So I am going to try to talk to him and tell him
    what is going on before recommending she change.
    
    Kathy

    	I've seen all kinds of advice in this note from having her simply
    tell it to go away to get an exorcism.  I think the crux of the
    answer may not be in what *we* think might work but in what *she*
    will believe will work.  Or *maybe* not.
    
    	There is an interesting book titled "The Unquiet Dead" by Edith
    Fiore (pronounced Fee-or-ee) where she describes a hypnotherapy
    technique she uses in her psychology practice.  It operates under
    the premise that possesions by discarnates and negative energy form
    can be "exorcised" through hypnosis.  What is even more interesting
    is that neither the patient *nor* the therapist need believe in
    possesion for the therapy to be effective.  What is even *more*
    interesting is that it can be done remotely.  I have seen the results
    of this remote "depossesion" and they were amazing.  The woman in
    question was hospitalized in a psychiatric ward.  The remote
    depossesion was performed and even though she had no idea (nor did
    the doctors on the case) of what was being done, she "spontaneously"
    recovered.  She still has some residual effects but they are minor
    compared to the violent, suicidal episodes she was having.  This
    woman was a relative and this is *not* just a "hearsay" story. 
    I have seen this type of result several times, though this example
    is the most dramatic I have seen.
    
    	You can take this for what it's worth.  The average cost of
    a session with a hypnotherapist is $60-75.  A single session may
    be sufficient (though follow-up is *strongly* recommended).  If
    you decide to try this, be sure you find a hypnotherapist who does
    "depossesions".  I wish love and peace for her.
                            
    
    Larry

Thanks for all the suggestions.  We'll try to find the books mentioned.
    
The hypnotherapy is another idea.  Thanks for the suggestion.
    
        

    
    
    
    
    I'm surprised that a psychiatrist would have turned her away.
    I would recommend finding a good psychotherapist...a starting point
    might be the EAP program.  They have a network of therapists that they
    can recommend, which I think beats using the yellow pages!  In any
    event, make sure they have good references.  I wouldn't recommend any 
    one "school" over another.  A good starting point might be with a
    psychiatric social worker, who would be able to refer her to a good
    doctor.
    
    Have her see somebody even if she seems better.  Its probably an
    advantage to start working with someone and establish a relationship
    before her symptoms flare up again.
    
    Dr. Peck did come to believe in possession after witnessing (and
    participating in?) several exorcisms, but while I like much of what he
    has written, there are a number of things about him that don't sit well
    with me (sorry Cindy!) so I take him with a grain of salt.  I think I
    couldn't help but feel that in one or two cases he was projecting his own
    problems onto the patient.  We tend to forget that our doctors are
    human too--have their own problems and a multitude of reasons for being
    drawn into phsychiatry and psychology.
    
    Mary

    Re.15 (Mistovich)
    
    Hi Mary,
    
    No problem - I liked what you had to say about the case of Charlene
    when we last talked about that book.
    
    There is a case in the beginning of the book though, where a fellow
    makes a pact with the devil, and it sounds something like this woman
    was/is going through.  
    
    Granted - one should always be aware of things written by people since
    they are writing from their particular perspective, however I believe
    that reading Peck's book (which I recommended to her offline) would
    give a different (yet another) perspective.
    
    Cindy

    
    See note 398 for the tables of contents of Peck's books.

Re: .0 

	Hi Kathy, my sympathy is strong for you - my own sister
went 'crazy' for a while a couple of years ago.

(First of all, I should say my background is logical/scientific
but I've got a great big belief space open for all kinds of
psychic/spiritual stuff.)

Well, what to do? Here's my opinion.

	- it's important for your sister to have a therapist.
	  She sounds too far out at the moment to work on herself
	  much. And stick with the current therapist but make sure 
	  he knows the background.

	- give as much stable, loving support to your sister as
	  possible. This will be *very* difficult for you at times
	  but I think it's important.

	- work on yourself. What do I mean by that? Spend time on yourself.
	  Love yourself a bit. Do some visualisation exercises in which
	  you see and know your sister getting better and finally being
	  *very* well - better than she has ever been. An exercise like this
	  need only take fifteen/twenty minutes at the beginning of the day.
	  Do it regularly. Do not give up. She *will* get better.

My best wishes to you Kathy and your sister.

John.

I have been reading this notes file for almost a year but haven't felt
involved enough to reply until now

I think that lots of the issues raised by the note are interesting academic 
questions, is kathy's young sister possessed or not ?, is the possession from
out side or inside ? and in what way can it be said to be real or not. 

All good "academic" questions but regardless of these I think that a more
important aspect is possibly being missed that is, there is a possible risk 
of physical harm occurring to the children and or Kathy's sister.

This next part is addressed specifically to Kathy 

I suggest action should be taken to minimise the risk to the children 
by removing them from the current environment, I believe that act in
itself might alleviate the situation, (one  source of torment will be removed)
and it  will give her a physical break from the hard job of caring for
children (especially since she is having this problem -what ever it is-). 

I am not suggesting that the the children be put in care or taken away
from  your sister. Ideally a close family relative may be in a position to
lend a hand. This should be handled with care and be seen to be an attempt 
to help your sister cope with this difficult time. 

It is important to consider all possibilities. Taking some sabbatical time 
out and getting involved oneself. Hiring a professional child minder or
foster parenting.

You mention also that one of the things your sister is trying to mentally
escape from is a physically abusive husband (is this the present husband) 
if so then perhaps the problem would be alleviated by a separation. Only 
very strong solid people can mentally escape physical abuse and even they
can only do so for so long. If separation is unwanted/not possible how about
a vacation just you and your sister, (the longer the better). If this is 
not possible perhaps the husband would agree to see a -somebody they agree
can help- as well as your sister in joint or separate sessions. The husband
taking a more active role in solving this problem may be key to the problem. 


I hope this does not sound alarmist or dogmatic, you ask for suggestions and 
these are mine.

I hope your sister and her family pass through this trauma safely and quickly


Gabriel

    I have to say that I am overwhelmed by the caring/loving/concern
    received as a result of my note here.  I sincerely appreciate all
    of it.
    
    We (family/friends) have all made sure she is seldom alone by herself
    or with the kids.  Currently, she spends the day at my mothers with
    the kids.  The TVs fell on Chad at my mothers.  Her previous Dr.
    wanted to place the kids in a fosterhome and my sister just about
    lost her mind over it - it greatly worsened her condition until
    he dropped the subject.  This does not mean we would leave the kids
    there under any condition.    Since the incident with the TV though
    I have become even more concerned for both her and the kids.  
    
    I called and left a message for her Dr./therapist yesterday, but
    have not yet heard back from him.  My mother suggested to her that
    she schedule a sooner apt. to go back and my sister told her to
    "Butt out".  I will wait to talk to the Dr. and get his opinion
    on "forcing" her to go back.  I do believe I could probably talk
    her into willingly going back.
    
    She did take a vacation, away from hubby and kids, for a month back
    in April.  Unfortunately it didn't help anything.  I don't believe
    her husband is capable of having compassion for her (or anyone else
    for that matter) so he just aggravates the condition.  I suspect
    he is a good portion of the cause of this problem.  She has commented
    several times that "once she's better she's going to get rid of
    him" for whatever that's worth.  She has been separated from him
    a few different times.
    
    Again, thanks for all your responses.  I'll let you know how it
    goes.
    
    Kathy

    
    I may have been too hasty in suggesting an exorcist. 
    
    Just to make things clear - I don't believe in possession by anything
    but unconscious psychic elements.  I also don't believe in any evil 
    force other than that evil brought into this world by the actions of
    unconscious or "asleep" people.
    
    Kathy - I would like to refer you to note 1043.16 which is a discussion
    of the animus.  From what you say about these voices, they sound very
    much like the "death demon" voices of the animus.  This would also give
    us a clue as to why she stays with an abusive husband.  The animus
    comes from her relationship with her father and her husband is quite
    likely  identified with her father in an unconscious way.  If you read
    the note I referred you to and it makes sense to you, perhaps you will
    want to consult a Jungian psychologist.
    
    Of course, I am no expert, relying only on intuition here.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Guy

    
    In an effort to make myself clear I probably made more confusion.
    I meant to explain that I mentioned the exorcist because possession
    was mentioned in the basenote and I thought the cure should fit the
    paradigm of the one to be cured.  Sort of the "fight fire with fire"
    idea mentioned by someone else.
    
    Any questions? :-)
    
    Guy

Re: .20 - Kathy

>    several times that "once she's better she's going to get rid of

	For what it's worth, I detect a good sign here. She
	(sometimes anyway) foresees a time when she'll be better.

John.

    Re: .21 - Guy
    
    How would I go about finding a Jungian Psychologist.  Also, what
    is a Jungian Psychologist?  What sort of things do they specialize
    in?
    
    Also, I did understand what you meant when you recommended the
    exorcism.  I do believe that may be how we have to deal with her.
    
    
    RE: .23  John
    
    
    Good point!  I hadn't thought of it that way, as she constantly
    says she doesn't think she's ever going to get better.
    
    Kathy

    re: .23 & others
    
    Guy,
    
    Staying with an abusive husband does not necessarily reflectthe
    relationship with her father.  My sister had trouble leaving an abusive
    husband, but my mother was the primary child abuser in my household. 
    It really doesn't matter which parent is doing the beating.  Its a
    matter of the one in authority.  Basically, she didn't know to leave
    him because she believed that "that is how life is."
    
    I agree with your comments about "fighting fire with fire."  My
    personal belief is that whether the devil exists as an external entity
    or as internal demons (my personal leaning is toward internal demons), 
    since that is the paradigm in which her illness lies, then an exorcism
    may help.  I would be interested in seeing follow up studies of people
    who have been exorcised, to see if the illness recurred at a later date
    in a different form.  I suppose because so often when I get a cold, I
    find that it reappears in different parts of my body (head, chest,
    throat, stomach, etc.) before its finally vanquished. 
    
    Kathy -
    
    Another book that may be very helpful is Bradshaw on: The Family.  From
    what I've seen in the world, from what I've read it that book and from
    what you have said yourself about her husband, it sounds like a
    dysfunctional relationship.  I think that whenever a mental illness
    occurs "out of the blue" you need to look at the primary relationships
    in the sick persons life.  Is it possible that her illness is a symptom
    of illness in the relationship between her husband and her?  I ask this
    especially because I have a friend who's mother was in and out of
    mental hospitals throughout his life.  His father was apparently
    extremely critical and lacking compassion.  Anyway, I dated this friend
    for a short while.  I can't go into details, but his behavior (which I
    suspect he learned from his father, the "winner" in the family) triggered
    a deep emotional breakup in me.  I can't imagine what would have
    happened to me had I gotten into an lengthier involvement, but 
    I could definitely see where he could have either caused someone to
    lose it, or exacerbated an existing problem.
    
    Mary
    s

    Kathy,
 
    > How would I go about finding a Jungian Psychologist.  Also, what
    > is a Jungian Psychologist?  What sort of things do they specialize
    > in?

    Something different that a Fruedian Psychologist.  Carl Jung started
    as a 'partner' with Frued but went his own way over differences regarding
    the meanings of dreams.  I personally find his theories very helpful.
    As to finding one, I guess you just ask them.

    Terry

    
    Mary -
    
    I didn't mean to imply that her father beat her, but she merely
    obtained an attitude from him (as well as other factors in the family
    I'm sure) that developed into a psychosis.  But again, I could be
    full of it.
    
    Kathy - 
    
    I have no idea how to find a Jungian Psychiatrist.
    I would assume, as Terry said, that you just call a few and ask them.
    They would know whether I was full of it or not.  :-)
    
    Guy

    With all due respect to systems of thought which have helped
    individuals in this conference gain insight...
    
    I don't know who's theory of "mind" is correct, Freud, Adler, Jung,
    the behaviorists (although I have my opinions).  But what I do know
    is that with the exception of a few special techniques addressing
    some specific problems (i.e., modern behavior modification techniques used
    for procrastination problems).  The theory from which the therapist
    reasons has little or nothing to do with their effectiveness.  This
    has been shown over and over again.
    
    Two things do matter:
    
    1) A psychiatrist, in whatever discipline, is liscenced to prescribe
    drugs when appropriate.  Drugs are over-perscribed against minor
    problems, but there is *no* therapy which comes close to the success
    rate for serious problems (agoraphobia/panic-disorder, true
    manic-depression, schizophrenia, etc.) of the appropriate modern drugs.
    Used in conjunction with good therapy they are even better. 
    (Non-psychiatrist therapists can, and frequently do, work with a
    liscenced MD, of course).  A psychiatrist is also more likely, due to
    his/her medical training, to recognize a physical or neurological
    problem which might cause or agravate the problem (unfortunately
    studies show that even psychiatrists have a rather poor record on
    this).
    
    2) The individual therapist.  Some therapists do better than others
    in general, and some are more appropriate for a specific complaint or a
    specific patient.  But the therapists theoretical beliefs are no
    indication of there effectiveness.  In specialized areas, the sex
    of the therapist may make a difference.  Someone who is deathly afraid
    of men would probably need a woman therapist.  But a abuse situation
    without indications of pathological fear of all men could equally
    likely benefit from learning that there are kind, compasionet men.
    
    					Topher
    

       For what it's worth, everyone who studies psychology studies
    Jung.  While his ideas seemed to supercede Freud's that doesn't
    necessarily mean that he reached the "ultimate" in analysis, either.
    I somewhat dislike "systems" and find those who practice someone
    else's systems to be uncreative and limited.  The suggestion to 
    use Bradshaw's work as a guide is an excellent one.  What Bradshaw
    does best, perhaps, is shows the relationships we have and the
    dependence we have on those relationships.  He suggests that we need
    to free ourselves of those relationships (the "co-dependent" ones.)
    As he has said, when one is only a half and the other is the other
    half, multiplied they produce one-fourth...whereas if one is already
    a whole and the other is also whole, multiplied they are no less
    a whole.  Picking a therapist is probably hit-and-...  Ask, look,
    maybe pick one and look some more.  The more you know about the 
    therapist, the more it may help, but maybe not.  The bottom line
    comes from whether or not they are able to provide help.  A one-hour
    session may provide some answers, and on the other hand it may not
    and may still not say whether the session is useful or not.  It isn't
    always easy to figure this out.
    
          Just for anyone who might ask, no, I would not go to any of
    the traditional therapists anymore.  I have in my past (I spent a
    couple of months with a psychologist while I was in college and then
    I spent several weeks with a psychiatrist while I was agonizing over
    my marriage break-up) but that is long behind me now.  I have moved
    into a spiritual/metaphysical area that is so pervasive that the
    only therapists I would seek (if I were to seek) would be those who
    I have encountered in my milieu (and there are dozens.)  All of these
    individuals have had the traditional backgrounds in psychology (as have
    I) but have opened themselves up to go far beyond...any many are doing
    it, not always "perfectly", but doing it.  I don't recommend them to
    just anyone because they require, or may require, a different set of
    beliefs.  As I can recommend Ophelia for therapy for those among us
    who see the value in what "she" does, I cannot recommend her to someone
    who does not understand whatever is going on.  See?  (She is the only
    disincarnate I personally know besides Lazaris, by the way.)  
      
          It isn't always important to make the best step possible with
    the first step.  What *is* important is that steps be taken and 
    decisions made.  And to not let go of an optimistic outcome, as 
    suggested by a few in some of the notes.  And then keep on going 
    and making changes as they are necessary or desired.
    
    Frederick
    

    .whatever

    I agree with Frederick, someone locked into any one system has 
    compromised and limited their own creativity.  If you want to
    look into it some, you could read _Re-visioning Psychology_ by
    James Hillman.  I find his approach to anaysys, depth psychology
    and psychopathology very illuminating (although hard to read).  He
    takes ideas from many people in the field of psychology including
    Frued, Jung and others.

    I'm sure we've given you (Kathy) much to think about and much to read
    but I get the sense that you need to make some decisions pretty soon.

    Good luck to you, your sister and her children.

    Terry

    
    
    My understanding is that Jungian analysts are highly specialized
    individuals and I believe in order to attend any of the C. G. Jung
    Institutes with the goal of getting a degree, you have to already
    have your master's degree.  The few Jungian analysts that I have
    met all have Ph.D.'s.  Psychologists, psychotherapists, and
    psychiatrists may have studied some Jung, but this does not make
    them Jungian analysts or give them the credentials to call themselves
    such.
    
    Carole

    
    
    Terry and Frederick,
    
    I don't agree that people who have chosen to work within one
    system have "compromised and limited their own creativity".  This
    may be true of some, but not necessarily true for all.  Working
    in that way may be just the gift that a person has to offer in this
    life.  Let's not lump everyone together and say they are all wrong,
    because none of us really know that.
    
    Regarding Hillman....I took a class in the spring at Lesley College,
    Cambridge, MA. called "Archetypal Psychology", which was based on
    much of Hillman's work.  I thoroughly enjoyed it (got an "A" too
    ;-)), and found working on the level of soul and imagination very
    freeing.  However, after a time, that could also become too focused
    and limited.....*anything* can when a decision is made to totally
    exclude other ways of looking at things.  What I most liked about
    the class and what I took away from it as a point I want to 
    remember in my own life, is not to analyze and define something
    so much as to have removed all the mystery and magic from it.
    
    Carole 

    re: .32 (Carole)

    I think we do agree.  I meant limited by being locked into any
    one system of thought.  You put it better in your second paragraph.

    >> However, after a time, that could also become too focused
    >> and limited.....*anything* can when a decision is made to totally
    >> exclude other ways of looking at things.  

    Terry

    
    I'm not sure if any of the past replies were directly at me or not
    (specifically or non-specifically), but it doesn't really matter.
    I just hope I haven't given the impression (though I'm fairly sure
    I have) that I cannot/will not break out of the Jungian mode of think-
    ing - heck, I'm not even sure I was ever in it!  I read something that
    struck an intuitive chord in me and I responded.  
    
    Also, the whole idea of being a Jungian would be to delve into the
    individual case without holding onto any bias.  That's really why
    I enjoy reading Jung.  Of course, I promise not to be upset if y'all
    don't accept every word of his stuff. :-)  I also have the option of
    listening to all sorts of ideas (and, goodness, I might accept a few 
    along the way :-).
    
    I expect everyone here to give what I say as fair a shake as I try to
    give to them - if they don't want to that's their choice and I will
    respect it.  There really isn't much I can do BUT operate out of my own
    system of thought; I can try to expand it, but I can't escape it. 
    That's really all anyone does whether they want to believe it or not.
    We can't be responsible for what another chooses to accept or reject
    especially when we endeavor to make it clear what is opinion and what
    is not.
    
    
    Guy_who_is_not_upset_just_paranoid....
    
    

    Since Carl G. Jung's name keep coming up, perhaps I can try to relate
    his studies with all our problem (not only Kathy's sister's problem) at
    hand.  
    And, perhaps you can see that the many problems discussed in this Dejavu 
    notesfile are still the same one but in many disguises.

What is the difference of Jung, Freud and Adler?  At least, Jung was a realised
soul (the subject of realised soul has been discussed in #1041). His
awareness of existence of human higher dimension - the collective 
unconsciousness is simply just the truth.  This is as contrary to the
Freud's theory which is left-sided Libido conditioning has been tormented more
people than Adolpf Hitler.

Now, you may wondering what I was talking about left sided, right sided?
I am talking about our body - the autonomous nervous system. We can
categorize into two groups of nervous system; one is sympathetic another is 
parasympathetic.  Although in medical world, the sympathetic nervous system 
is called autonomous, but it is really under our control (or effect by the 
drugs).  In a frightening situation, if we started to run, our sympathetic
system went into action. The faster we run, the faster our heartbeat 
become.  Our parasympathetic nervous system acts just the opposite way, it 
bring us back to the normal state of being.  

The sympathetic nervous system further divided to two types; the left side 
and the right side. Both side can be activated by our own emergency 
situation.  According to the doctors, the left side and the right side is
all just the same.  Only in 1960 approximately, the science discovered the
difference of left brain and right brain from the activity of brain waves.
Midically, it is all the same nervous system only it switch sides (cross) at
the optical chasma down to our trunk and limbs.  Medical society does not
want to talk about parasympathetics system since they don't know anything
about it.  To them, the left is just the same as right also.  In Sahaja
Yoga (discussed in notes #401.7 Unique Discovery), it has been proved that
left side looks after our emotion, the conditioning and our subconscious.
The left represent desire, it also creates the subconscious within us.  
This left side, right side business is also fit into the Chinese Yin (the 
moon, the famine) and Yan (the sun, the male properity) theory.

The right side sympathetic system is for action, it creates the supra-
conscious.  Typically, a right sided person is futuristic who always think
about next minute.  Such person gets high blood pressure all the time
and eventually develop heartattack.  This person create a realm as the 
present supra-conscious within us.  But beyond that exist the realm called
collective supra-conscious.

Jung talked a lot about "Unconscious" and "collective unconscious". Please
do not confuse with "subconscious" and collective subconscious".
If you think subconscious is unconscious, then we have a language problem. 
"Unconscious" means whatever is not conscious, whatever is not felt in our 
central nervous system.  To understand this, let's figure three different
compartments in our psychic body - one on the left, one on the right and one 
in the center.  The left side is the subconscious, and beyond subconscious 
is the collective subconscious.  The right side is the supra-conscious, 
beyond the limit of it is collective supra-conscious.  The top center is the 
area called "superconsciousness".  That is the evolutionary ascent we have to 
achieve. It means we have to become conscious of the superconsciousness,
which is really the collective consciousness.  To ascent one has to 
maintain the balance, and that's why the religion which is nothing but
"consciousness regulated by superconsciousness". Now, the religion we talk 
is outside - the mythical religion. But, inside religion is like a valency.
If we lose our balance, from side to side, if we go beyond, we become
either subnormal or abnormal.  The subnormal people are the ones who go to
the left side.  For more leftside, right side information, you can go to
#401.7 for detail yourself.  The point I am trying to drive is to warn you,
many of you (seeks) are trying so hard to get to collective subconscious
(the area where all that was dead since our creation reside).  I also know
some people is pushing to perfect astral projection (thinking this as a short 
cut to become the light).

The left side people are sly, who invade, who torture are what we call 
masochist sort of people (Freud is one of them). The right side are the 
sadists (Hitler used Lamas for their supra-conscious ideas to possess the
German to lose their consciousness).

At least, we should know there is such big difference in Jung and Freud.
In New York, you can find the Jungian psychiatrist through C.G. Jung 
Society.  They are not many around yet.  In 1983, I heard there were only
12 of them in London.

For more about Carl Jung, who is the Best_Guy in the house?:-)

    
    If you're interested in reading the first 100 pages or so of the
    Bradshaw book mentioned earlier, then check out note 688 in this
    conference.
    
    Cindy

    
    Seeing spirits on the outside keeps the "possessed" from
    having to deal with the real sickness within.  The best thing a family
    member or friend can offer is the real world.  

Re: .-1

>    Seeing spirits on the outside keeps the "possessed" from
>    having to deal with the real sickness within.  

	This tough-minded attitude is fine *if* the person still
	has 'control' over themselves. If they've given up their
	control, either to a fantasy or to a real entity, then such
	a position is worse than useless.

>    The best thing a family
>    member or friend can offer is the real world.  

	Also, I'd amend this to something like: the best thing they
	can be offered is a safe space from which they can grow to
	meet the real world (whatever that is). A 'safe space' 
	should be defined in relation to the person who is having 
	the problem but it almost certainly includes a peaceful
	environment and a guiding expert.

John D.

PS. Personally BCHBUM::SYSTEM I find the tone of your reply 
unsympathetic and I think you should put your name at the 
end of it and not send it from an anonymous account.

    Kathy,
    
    Just saw your original note.  I haven't had time to read all of the
    responses yet, so don't know if you've found any resolution to what
    your sister is experiencing.
    
    I can offer the names of two people who are experienced in dealing with
    this type of obsession/possession and I have known and worked with them
    personally for over 10 years now - their work is high quality, they
    are down-to-earth, and have worked with many cases such as your
    sister's with success, when no one else could help:
    
    - Reverand Simeon Stefanidakis and/or Reverand Stephen Fulton,
      First Spiritual Temple, Brookline, MA   (617) 566-7639
    
    Good luck, and my prayers are with you and your family.
    
    - Karen
      
    

    RE: .0
    
    *** THROUGH THE DOOR BY WHICH HE CAME, BE FORCED BACK AND THE DOOR
    CLOSED FOREVER BEHIND HIM***
    
    	I do not suggest that this will resolve all of your sisters
    problems, however, the act should help to stop the aggression that she
    feels from this spirit.  I also suggest that she not do this alone, but
    perhaps yourself, or someone else close to her accompany her in this
    act.
    	Take along a Bible, a clove of garlic, newspapers, matches, and the
    Quija board.  Tell her to repeat over and over, (you should also join
    in), that she does not want to be bothered anymore by the spirit from
    beyond, return from whence he came, place the Quija Board on top of the
    crumpled newspapers, light a match and set them on fire.  Continue
    repeating those lines to force the spirit away, until the Quija Board
    has been consumed!  **THE DOOR SHALL BE CLOSED FOREVER BEHIND HIM**
    
    THE WIZARD

    I have known of a case where a women would suffer delusions and have
    halucinations of debilitating kinds because she wanted a divorce from
    her husband but was afraid to ask. Very afraid. 
     This women only began to heal when in hospitalized psychiatric therapy 
    she was able to deal with these feelings and commence the
    permanent separation and divorce.