| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 1084.1 | Aha, I see! (Do you see?) | MISERY::WARD_FR | Going HOME--as an Adventurer | Fri Jul 14 1989 11:51 | 21 |
| re: .0 (Brewce)
Good one! Since the questions are all basically rhetorical,
there isn't much need to say anything...the old axiom "to thine
own self be true" seems appropriate, however.
There are 5 billion of us on the planet, each seeking to
understand/know ourselves...it doesn't really matter if someone
else does if we don't. All that matters is that we do. In that
process, however, the knowledge and understandings come to us in
5 billion different ways. While no two of us are alike, many of
us can share or overlap in the exposure of awarenesses and experiences.
Still, its interpretation will remain individualistic and unique.
What is authentic? I say if it's true for you, it's authentic.
Age makes little difference...especially if reincarnation is held
into account. Experiences are experiences...knowledge is knowledge.
Wisdom (putting understanding into practice) is a synergy of those
awarenesses, knowledge and experiences. The source or origin seems
no longer relevant at that point.
Frederick
|
| 1084.2 | can you really see auras ? | SALSA::MOELLER | 118�F,but it's a DRY heat.(THUD!) | Fri Jul 14 1989 20:57 | 8 |
| < Note 1084.1 by MISERY::WARD_FR "Going HOME--as an Adventurer" >
> What is authentic? I say if it's true for you, it's authentic.
.. and I say, if it isn't true for me, then your claims of
experience must be inauthentic. Just the way it works for me.
karl
|
| 1084.3 | just a questions | WITNES::MESAROS | | Mon Jul 17 1989 10:10 | 16 |
| re: .0
I beg to differ on your last comment.
"all paths lead to the same place"
If that is so, where, what is that place?
I believe that you are given choices
you choose which path you wish to take everytime a
door is opened (if you can see that it is open) or
everytime a door is closed.
I could be wrong though, please elaborate on that comment.
Thanks,
KC
|
| 1084.4 | | CSC32::MORGAN | Celebrating the Cybernetic Age. | Mon Jul 17 1989 10:18 | 12 |
| re: <<< Note 1084.3 by WITNES::MESAROS >>>
>I beg to differ on your last comment.
>"all paths lead to the same place"
>If that is so, where, what is that place?
>I believe that you are given choices
>you choose which path you wish to take everytime a
>door is opened (if you can see that it is open) or
>everytime a door is closed.
Place is not so much a place or location as it is a condition.
|
| 1084.5 | | CSC32::MORGAN | Celebrating the Cybernetic Age. | Mon Jul 17 1989 10:24 | 3 |
| Reply to .0, Bruce,
Aren't we confusing authentic and genuine with "what works?"
|
| 1084.6 | we are asking... | HYDRA::LARU | goin' to graceland | Mon Jul 17 1989 10:48 | 24 |
| re: <<< Note 1084.5 by CSC32::MORGAN "Celebrating the Cybernetic Age." >>>
� Reply to .0, Bruce,
� Aren't we confusing authentic and genuine with "what works?"
Well, Mikie?
we may very well ve confused, but we believe that .0 asks
for a way out of that confusion...
again, we ask: WHAT'S AUTHENTIC?
how do we define "authentic?"
is it static?
who arbitrates?
does it matter?
/bruce
|
| 1084.7 | confusion has just set in | WITNES::MESAROS | | Mon Jul 17 1989 10:51 | 16 |
| I'm still confused!
I guess I just don't get it.
I have been under that impression that
we are here to learn (each lifetime)
we choose which paths we want to take
in order to learn or experience what it
is we were meant to learn or experience
IF we choose the right path.
Okay, what's missing. Am I at least on the right track?
KC
(p.s. I'm still using my boss' account until I get my own)
|
| 1084.8 | just followin' the tracks... | HYDRA::LARU | goin' to graceland | Mon Jul 17 1989 11:04 | 22 |
| re: <<< Note 1084.7 by WITNES::MESAROS >>>
-< confusion has just set in >-
� I'm still confused!
� .
� .
� .
� Okay, what's missing. Am I at least on the right track?
I believe that no one can answer that question for another.
Workshops, books, gurus, [i] can only tell you what worked
and didn't work for them/[me].
The best that one can do then, is listen and try those
things that "feel right" (when i feel poetic/pretentious,
i like to say "resonate within the core of one's own being").
I think the answer is ultimately within, so whatever enables
me to "know myself" is on the "right track."
/bruce
|
| 1084.9 | don't look back... | ATSE::FLAHERTY | Evolving, not revolving | Mon Jul 17 1989 11:45 | 7 |
| re: .7
Perhaps there are no mistakes -- no 'wrong paths' -- only lessons
to learn.
Ro
|
| 1084.10 | my .02 cents worth | EXIT26::SAARINEN | | Mon Jul 17 1989 12:39 | 19 |
| Yeah well what about the idea of what works for the most amount
of people of the 5 Billion of us here who inhabit this dumpsite
of a planet. All this talk about "what works for *me*" makes me
quite nauseous...which seems to border on the elitist approach
to spirituality. I'll call it a spiritual path by working on
myself first with $300 workshops and fancy massage oils and
imported incense and crystals...YIKES...ya gotta be kidding!
I'll call a spiritual path authentic, and REAL when it considers
everyone on the planet, so we all can be elevated together to
a higher standard of living thru loving, which feeds people and
houses them and gives them medical supplies, and clean drinking water,
and the hope and know-how to fend for themselves. That to me is the
first steps to a spiritual path, that is authentic and real.
A Spiritual Path Starts with Common Sense.
.02 cents
-Arthur
|
| 1084.11 | | LEDS::BATES | Sic transit Gloria | Mon Jul 17 1989 12:40 | 16 |
|
Every now and then I remember something that my gentleman-farmer
ex-father-in-law would say as he spread horse manure on his rosebeds:
"Even shit is good for something."
I'm careful about dismissing someone else's meat because it may be
poison for me. And even if/when I choose something that's not quite
'right', I trust in my ability to discard what doesn't work, and
acknowledge the discomfort that it's caused. The lesson: that it's
something I don't need to try again - or bemoan never having tried.
In wordy agreement with Ro -
Gloria
|
| 1084.12 | | SMEGIT::BALLAM | | Mon Jul 17 1989 13:24 | 10 |
| Was the meditation circle at the recent Medicine Wheel Gathering
"authentic" Native American ritual? I don't know, but it was a
powerful and positive experience.
Was the teacher who spoke at our workshop passing on authentic Native
American wisdom? I don't know, but it touched me somewhere deep
inside, and I learned to increase my awareness of my surroundings
and internal talk.
Karen
|
| 1084.13 | most likely you'll go your way, i'll go mine... | HYDRA::LARU | goin' to graceland | Mon Jul 17 1989 14:09 | 22 |
| re .10:
Arthur, your reply seems to me to suggest that somehow
being concerned with one's own growth necessarily causes
pollution, hunger, pestilence and god-knows what other
disasters, that self-concern is antithetical to concern
for others/the "world out there."
I don't believe that is so.
I believe that one's self-awareness necessarily leads to
awareness of the arbitary nature of the self-otherd/inside-outside
boundaries, and that by "improving" my corner of the cosmic egg i
necessarily improve the whole egg.
If $300 workshops and fancy massage oils don't yield the
desired results, at least that narrows the list of options
from which to choose, and one is a little "farther along"
to [where(?)]....
/bruce
|
| 1084.14 | more .02cents | EXIT26::SAARINEN | | Mon Jul 17 1989 15:12 | 57 |
| re .10:
*** Hi there....
Arthur, your reply seems to me to suggest that somehow
being concerned with one's own growth necessarily causes
pollution, hunger, pestilence and god-knows what other
disasters, that self-concern is antithetical to concern
for others/the "world out there."
*** The majority of what is called spiritual paths today do
*** seem to pad the individual with a sense of ME First...
*** and than everything else will take care of itself. This justification
*** I don't think is very true at all. I think that most of the paths are
*** pyschic massages for the ego that makes one feel better
*** about oneself without teaching the seeker (what I consider
*** what the real nature of spirit is)... which is Love...which
*** to me...is getting off of ones ass and doing something for
*** somebody other than oneself. That is where the action of
*** Love is manifested...
I don't believe that is so.
*** oh... ;-)
I believe that one's self-awareness necessarily leads to
awareness of the arbitary nature of the self-otherd/inside-outside
boundaries, and that by "improving" my corner of the cosmic egg i
necessarily improve the whole egg.
*** I think that the idea is that, people might become aware of the boundaries
*** of the cosmic egg...and that is where it ends. They don't get off and
*** make the manifestation of what they have come to realize in their path.
*** I think the trend is that way though. The trend for some spirtual paths
*** is to endorse going off to the wilderness on a vision quest, or go to spend
*** a weekend discovering the inner primal man...is to me a misdirection of
*** the energy of spirit that can make a difference in the real world with
*** people who are suffering now.
If $300 workshops and fancy massage oils don't yield the
desired results, at least that narrows the list of options
from which to choose, and one is a little "farther along"
to [where(?)]....
*** Yeah that's a cute answer Bruce...but as the world steps closer to
*** the edge of the big dark abyss...I would bark at the narrowmindedness
*** and luxurious attitude of thinking we can experiment with such BS
*** while there is poverty,suffering,disease,aparthied,etc...in this world.
*** If a spiritual path is anything, I think it should start with compassion
*** for your fellow man, to the natural world in which we live and how we
*** feel about ourselves in relation to that.
-Arthur
|
| 1084.15 | my $.0005 worth | BTOVT::BEST_G | Food is Not a Toy | Mon Jul 17 1989 15:13 | 16 |
|
re: .10
To second /bruce's idea, I believe that first we must look inside, get
that aspect of our lives in order, then begin acting in a manner
befitting our then transformed attitude. We can't really know how to
get the world situation in order without making all things come from
a place of real harmony - our inner selves (I'm speaking here of all
of society).
re: whoever was looking for answers...
You probably won't find them here.
Guy
|
| 1084.16 | Wonder is what it's about. | MISERY::WARD_FR | Going HOME--as an Adventurer | Mon Jul 17 1989 15:29 | 41 |
| re: .10 (Art)
Sheesh!
This "argument" hasn't been seen in here much since John
Mitchell left...I thought it had already been answered before...
goes to show what I know. ;-)
Why is it so many people think that the way to spirituality
is to find some under-"priveleged" person and give them something?
I'm not going to rewrite all the answers to this here...this has
already been done by many people here in various ways. You've been
in this notes conference long enough, though, Art, that you've no
doubt seen the replies. Is it that you didn't read them, don't
understand them, have forgotten them, or simply can't accept them?
There is as much "wrong" with giving to others as there is "right",
FROM A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW. If it's appropriate for you to spend
your dollars on others rather than yourself, do so, by all means.
If, when you are 78 years old and you're lying around wondering what
life is all about but are barely able to think about it and haven't
a clue, maybe you'll see that those who spent a few years or several
decades learning about themselves have an inner sense you'll envy.
Maybe not, either because their search was fruitless or because you
won't even care. I feel I do at least as much for others these
days as I did in my past, yet I spend far more on "lessons" than
I ever would have imagined, I'm more financial stable, happier and
more in control of my reality. Had I stayed away from $300 workshops
and gone to work in a soup line doling out soup, I seriously doubt
that I'd be anything but depressed.
Incidentally, I'd rather have nice "expensive" oils on my skin
than sheep lard, wouldn't you? Or are you so undeserving that only
crude oil will suffice? Or are you so undeserving that even massage
is something only for the bourgeois in your mind...definitely not
pour toi?
Frankly, Arthur, your note surprised me. I think maybe what you
said isn't entirely what you meant. But I could be wrong. I do make
mistakes...even after hundreds of dollars in lessons, I still make
mistakes. Makes me wonder.
Frederick
|
| 1084.17 | ...more opinions | EXIT26::SAARINEN | | Mon Jul 17 1989 16:40 | 92 |
|
re: .10 (Art)
*** Fred,
Sheesh!
*** God bless you...
This "argument" hasn't been seen in here much since John
Mitchell left...I thought it had already been answered before...
goes to show what I know. ;-)
*** Haa haa...
Why is it so many people think that the way to spirituality
is to find some under-"priveleged" person and give them something?
*** Under Priviliged...!!!! God...the energy that you have is not
*** something to horde and keep to oneself...and how you define
*** under-"priveleged" sounds so self righteous that its disgusting.
*** Suffering...is what I am talking about. Starving, Dying, Sick,
*** under-"priveleged" people... Not intellectual non-entities...real
*** people.
I'm not going to rewrite all the answers to this here...this has
already been done by many people here in various ways. You've been
in this notes conference long enough, though, Art, that you've no
doubt seen the replies. Is it that you didn't read them, don't
understand them, have forgotten them, or simply can't accept them?
*** I simply don't agree with alot of them.
There is as much "wrong" with giving to others as there is "right",
FROM A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW. If it's appropriate for you to spend
your dollars on others rather than yourself, do so, by all means.
*** Another cute rationalization...Sure I can do whatever I want with
*** the resources I have...and your reality is giving me no justification
*** either way to do what I feel is right.
If, when you are 78 years old and you're lying around wondering what
life is all about but are barely able to think about it and haven't
a clue, maybe you'll see that those who spent a few years or several
decades learning about themselves have an inner sense you'll envy.
*** I don't consider what I see as EGO stroking even now on the part of
*** people who call themselves RIGHT with there "inner point of view" much
*** help for anybody but themselves.
Maybe not, either because their search was fruitless or because you
won't even care. I feel I do at least as much for others these
days as I did in my past, yet I spend far more on "lessons" than
I ever would have imagined, I'm more financial stable, happier and
more in control of my reality. Had I stayed away from $300 workshops
and gone to work in a soup line doling out soup, I seriously doubt
that I'd be anything but depressed.
*** Yeah but now...if your reality is so much in control how come it
*** sounds like the action of working in a soup kitchen is such a downer.
*** You have the money, you have everything together, but it seems you
*** have only found fancy justifications to be responsible to only
*** yourself.
Incidentally, I'd rather have nice "expensive" oils on my skin
than sheep lard, wouldn't you? Or are you so undeserving that only
crude oil will suffice? Or are you so undeserving that even massage
is something only for the bourgeois in your mind...definitely not
pour toi?
*** Freddie...listen...Massage to me is not a spiritual path. If I do
*** get rubbed out by my girlfriend... I do use some nice Swiss Oil
*** that costs about $6 or $7 from my local health food store. BUT If
*** I had the choice between getting a massage and feeling all relaxed,
*** or having back pains and seeing a poor family fed with good food,
*** my spiritual path would be to say to hell with the back rub.
*** It's called exerting yourself, not your ego.
Frankly, Arthur, your note surprised me. I think maybe what you
said isn't entirely what you meant. But I could be wrong. I do make
mistakes...even after hundreds of dollars in lessons, I still make
mistakes. Makes me wonder.
*** Perceiving Wonder or astonishment...or like being aSTONEDished... ;-) is
*** one thing. Whatever vehicle gets you to that point...great...but once
*** you get there...I believe you have to share the energy from that point
*** to make a difference in the world. In that way, when you are old and
*** 78 you won't be a crabby self satisfied content old snob who thought
*** he had all the answers for himself, and wonders why the old feelings
*** of being high just aren't there anymore.
-Arthur
|
| 1084.18 | i don't have *any* answers | HYDRA::LARU | goin' to graceland | Mon Jul 17 1989 16:46 | 30 |
|
re: Arthur
� a higher standard of living thru loving, which feeds people and
� houses them and gives them medical supplies, and clean drinking water,
� and the hope and know-how to fend for themselves. That to me is the
� first steps to a spiritual path, that is authentic and real.
at the risk of again being accused of being "cute,"
it seems to me that the above suggests starting
the poor unfortunates down the materialist path,
which doesn't seem to have done _me_ much spiritual
good... it seems that being fed and sheltered
and healthy only leads to a tolerance for $300 workshops
and fancy massage oils...
i think that it's possible to have as big an ego
"helping" others as by helping oneself ("oh wonderful
me, helping these poor unfortunate, ignorant, starving
heathens.")...
i can't teach anybody how to be better than i... people
learn by example, so if i am to help anybody, it is only by
helping myself.
/bruce
|
| 1084.19 | I won't go there | CSC32::MORGAN | Celebrating the Cybernetic Age. | Mon Jul 17 1989 17:14 | 17 |
| Reply to .6, Bruce,
Actually I try not to mangle the language too bad. And if we lose the
conventions of language without agreeing on what's happening I think we
all lose. We wouldn't be able to communicate "authentically".
My reading is that you are asking what is ultimately valid. Please
correct me if I'm misreading the topic.
My guess is that not all paths lead to the same place. Furthermore, it
doesn't really matter. There's lotsa' space and time in this universe.
I can't see any problems with utilizing these while in discarnate
states.
The Ultimate seems to be oblivion. I'm gonna' try to avoid that like
the plague while I'm able.
|
| 1084.20 | ...more | EXIT26::SAARINEN | | Mon Jul 17 1989 17:45 | 62 |
| *** Bruce,
re: Arthur
XX� a higher standard of living thru loving, which feeds people and
XX� houses them and gives them medical supplies, and clean drinking water,
XX� and the hope and know-how to fend for themselves. That to me is the
XX� first steps to a spiritual path, that is authentic and real.
at the risk of again being accused of being "cute,"
it seems to me that the above suggests starting
the poor unfortunates down the materialist path,
which doesn't seem to have done _me_ much spiritual
good...
*** I am sure you must have been around some Third World Countries
*** in your life. Inner cities, rural Applachia..alot of these "poor
*** unfortunates" don't need to be told the ten commandments, Lazarus's
*** guide to a better psychologial day, the buddha's lotus sutra or
*** anything like that. I am not suggesting a materialist way of living...
*** I am talking decent human survival. That alot these people can not
*** even dream of the ways we in the First World countries live to our
*** greedy hearts content.
*** I wouldn't suggest handing people in this condition a tract or
*** a tape cassette or tell them to read the latest guru book.
*** They aren't crying for that. Poor underfed children aren't
*** concerned about the newest hip spiritual path.
it seems that being fed and sheltered
and healthy only leads to a tolerance for $300 workshops
and fancy massage oils...
*** The alternative for alot these people, who I am talking about,
*** the very poor, have no choice if they are not fed and sheltered.
*** Having the power to make a choice for $300 workshops and massage
*** oils or something else...is alot better than the alternative to
*** no existence at all. We would sure bitch if we didn't have that
*** choice or if it was taken away from us.
i think that it's possible to have as big an ego
"helping" others as by helping oneself ("oh wonderful
me, helping these poor unfortunate, ignorant, starving
heathens.")...
*** Sure I agree...but that isn't the point. What the point is, is
*** that once one discovers that the sun doesn't rise and shine
*** soley under ones armpit, than you can get out of ones shell and
*** attempt to make a difference.
i can't teach anybody how to be better than i... people
learn by example, so if i am to help anybody, it is only by
helping myself.
*** If I had a choice to help a world drowning in suffering, I
*** wouldn't throw them a life preserver, I'd use something like
*** the Queen Elizabeth 2.
-Arthur
|
| 1084.21 | Signals have been crossed somewhere... | MISERY::WARD_FR | Going HOME--as an Adventurer | Mon Jul 17 1989 18:00 | 7 |
| ...and if nothing else gets them, manipulate them by guilt-tripping
or shaming them. Then they can feel bad, and that's good.
[from Frederick's guide to negative ego]
Frederick
|
| 1084.22 | why i asked... | HYDRA::LARU | goin' to graceland | Mon Jul 17 1989 18:05 | 20 |
| re: .19
Mikie, i asked the question in reaction to something
in 1083 (i think it was Tony Wiletto) that seemed to
imply that "new-age" spiritual quests were misguided
and doomed to failure because they relied on "inauthentic"
techniques/rituals that charletons foist on the gullible as
genuine paths used by (among others) the Amerinds.
Well, how do we determine what's authentic?
And is an "authentic" ritual necessary for [???]...
And to whom does it matter?
And why?
So, I think I'm asking for something larger than "validity."
/bruce
|
| 1084.23 | | HYDRA::LARU | goin' to graceland | Mon Jul 17 1989 18:19 | 17 |
| re: .20
Arthur,
I don't feel that i can suggest to anyone how they "should"
conduct their life. i can't judge the validity of anyone's
spiritual search (or lack thereof.)
I wasn't suggesting sending Lazaris to Appalachia.
Nor sending CARE packages full of massage oil to Bangladesh.
I think it's somewhat disingenuous to turn this note
into a discussion of "what have all you narcissists done
for world peace lately?"
/bruce
|
| 1084.24 | | CSC32::MORGAN | Celebrating the Cybernetic Age. | Mon Jul 17 1989 18:57 | 32 |
| re: <<< Note 1084.22 by HYDRA::LARU "goin' to graceland" >>>
>Mikie, i asked the question in reaction to something
>in 1083 (i think it was Tony Wiletto) that seemed to
>imply that "new-age" spiritual quests were misguided
>and doomed to failure because they relied on "inauthentic"
>techniques/rituals that charletons foist on the gullible as
>genuine paths used by (among others) the Amerinds.
>
>Well, how do we determine what's authentic?
>And is an "authentic" ritual necessary for [???]...
>And to whom does it matter?
>And why?
>
>So, I think I'm asking for something larger than "validity."
I guess it's all kinda' relative. Should one want to experience
AmerIndian spirituality they should go to and request it, with all the
normal dues and duties, from a AmerIndian shaman. Authenticity and
genuiness are related to a particular thing, say an AmerIndian
tradition. These are always generated and driven by the many different
experiences a tribal group or culture encounters. I think quality and
degree of immersion determine the authenticity. To experience
AmerIndian spirituality one would need to live as the AmerIndian
did/do.
Ultimately, along with Wicca and other forms of nature spirituality,
one cannot easily determine what is a genuine tradition and what is
eclectic except by knowledgable historical analysis.
And fortunately, what works, works. B^)
|
| 1084.26 | I think he is being misunderstood... | SHALOT::LACKEY | Service rendered is wisdom gained | Tue Jul 18 1989 12:03 | 12 |
| Re: .23 (Bruce)
> I think it's somewhat disingenuous to turn this note
> into a discussion of "what have all you narcissists done
> for world peace lately?"
I really don't think Arthur has been approaching this topic from a sense
of self-importance or accusation. It seems to me that he is simply appalled
at how easily people can have their heads in the clouds and forget the
basics.
Jeff
|
| 1084.27 | I'd like to borrow $.02 from Arthur | SHALOT::LACKEY | Service rendered is wisdom gained | Tue Jul 18 1989 12:05 | 31 |
| Re: .10, .14, .17, .20 (Arthur)
Well, Arthur, please don't pass out from shock, but there really are
some folks out here who agree with what you have been saying (although
apparently very few). :-)
Several of us have found ourselves in this loop before. Hmmm, maybe
that's why "Dejavu" is the title of this conference... because there are
some issues which continue to resurface. That's alright, though. If
certain issues continue to resurface, then perhaps they are serving a
purpose.
An interesting (seemingly paradoxical) point, in my opinion, is that we
cannot fully know how to best serve others until we know ourselves
fully; and yet, we cannot know ourselves fully and experience that
harmony until we have focussed on serving others. I think your point,
which I agree with, is that the planet is experiencing too much of the
former and not enough of the latter, thus losing the balance.
If we want to find something *really* authentic (to tie this in with the
topic), we can look at our own self-indulgence. We tend to indulge the
(little) self at the expense of the (big) Self. The insidious part is
that many of us, myself included, are intelligent enough to justify and
rationalize virtually all of our activities (or lack of them) in the name
of spirituality.
When we pass from this life it will matter little how much knowledge and
information we have accumulated. If we have not converted the knowledge
to wisdom by using it, we will not carry it with us.
Jeff
|
| 1084.28 | | NEXUS::MORGAN | Celebrating the Cybernetic Age. | Tue Jul 18 1989 12:12 | 4 |
| Reply to .26, Jeff (on Arthur),
I've said as much in this and other files in the past. Of what good is
having a great belief system if it doesn't parallel reality?
|
| 1084.29 | Any point along the spiral looks like the point below it. | MISERY::WARD_FR | Going HOME--as an Adventurer | Tue Jul 18 1989 12:20 | 6 |
| re: .27 (Jeff)
I like that.
Frederick
|
| 1084.30 | Samovar? | DNEAST::CHRISTENSENL | | Tue Jul 18 1989 13:53 | 12 |
| /bruce
If authentic was easy to define, easy to capture and not part
of the paradox: "it takes one to know one", you would not have
asked the question...eh?
There is the old story: "How does one become a longshoreman? A: By
getting into the Union. Q: How does one get into the Union?
A: By becoming a longshoreman."
L.
|
| 1084.31 | ...not much more to say... | EXIT26::SAARINEN | | Tue Jul 18 1989 15:22 | 47 |
|
...and if nothing else gets them, manipulate them by guilt-tripping
or shaming them. Then they can feel bad, and that's good.
[from Frederick's guide to negative ego]
Frederick
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
**** Frederick,
**** Your above quote sure places you close to Numero Uno in
**** the [Arthur's Guide to "Oh you Poor Little Baby, Let me
**** retract what I have written so your delicate Ego won't be
**** Shattered"]
**** -Arthur
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Arthur,
I don't feel that i can suggest to anyone how they "should"
conduct their life. i can't judge the validity of anyone's
spiritual search (or lack thereof.)
*** Too bad that you feel restrained from using your brain. I
*** just call them the way I see 'em....and I think and believe
*** that the seeker should start out with the basics before
*** heading out into the more esoteric realms that really in the
*** long run...I would question...who does it really benefit?
I think it's somewhat disingenuous to turn this note
into a discussion of "what have all you narcissists done
for world peace lately?"
*** You asked what was authentic. I tried to describe it in the
*** ways that I see what I consider to be a Real Authentic Spiritual
*** Path...were most of the roots of spiritual path should start and return
*** too. Obviously your not getting the point I am trying to get across.
*** Nothing like a good discussion to keep the barnacles off the
*** hull of our hearts and minds ...ehh? ;-)
-Arthur
|
| 1084.32 | Authenticity. | CADSYS::COOPER | Topher Cooper | Tue Jul 18 1989 16:41 | 38 |
| I think I'll take a stab at this:
1) There is a difference between learing self respect and learning
self indulgence, but it is frequently difficult to distinguish them
either because one is too close or because one is too distant.
2) Teachers may attempt to teach one yet some of their students may
learn the other.
3) The advantage of asceticism is that it would seem to be hard for
the wrong lesson of self-indulgence to be learned. If either is
learned it would seem to be self respect. Unfortunately, it is then
too easy to avoid self respect by learning the indulgence of self denial
-- the belief that denial is an end in itself rather than one means to
one end.
4) Good works are not an end in themselves. They are sometimes a
consequence of spiritual growth. They may also be a form of, or
a part of the "path of asceticism" to spiritual growth -- with that
paths attendant advantages and pitfalls. In that case a small amount
of guilt may serve as a "prod" to the student. More than a small
amount of guilt, or chronic generic guilt, does no-one any good.
5) When someone claims to be teaching a traditional kind of spiritual
discipline, it is authentic if and only if it does indeed follow the
heart and soul and as much of the body as is practical of that
tradition. *Whether or not it is valuable for spiritual growth* it
is authentic if it follows the tradition it claims to, and it is
inauthentic if it does not.
6) If someone claims to be teaching a traditional spiritual discipline
but knows that they are not, then they are dealing with deliberate
untruth. However valuable their discipline is, this is a poor start for
a teacher, but not always a fatal one.
Now you can argue at me for a while, rather than at each other. :-)
Topher
|
| 1084.33 | | HYDRA::LARU | goin' to graceland | Tue Jul 18 1989 17:20 | 27 |
| thanks, Topher... I agreee with most of what you say....
� 5) When someone claims to be teaching a traditional kind of spiritual
� discipline, it is authentic if and only if it does indeed follow the
� heart and soul and as much of the body as is practical of that
� tradition. *Whether or not it is valuable for spiritual growth* it
� is authentic if it follows the tradition it claims to, and it is
� inauthentic if it does not.
I think that this the heart of what I was asking in .0.
And I think it illustrates the real issue, which is that
"authenticity" is a very subjective quality.
how do we define "heart and soul of a tradition" ?
how do we define "as much of the body as is practical of a tradition" ?
I tend to think that practicality can't be part of the definition
of authenticity (at least not _my_ definition).
Besides, i no longer place much stock in authenticity. Taking
my cue from Joseph Campbell, I believe that myth must
evolve to reflect and explain the current cosmology,
and that ritual is just a means of altering one's consciousness
in a way to become aware of the "deeper" cosmology.
/bruce
|
| 1084.34 | Does this make sense? | NAAD::BARNETTE | I'm a soul, man! | Tue Jul 18 1989 17:33 | 41 |
|
Re (Saarinen and a few others):
Let's hold on here a minute, before we start acting like
the members of certain other conferences (I won't name names,
but somehow node CACHE:: comes to mind ;^) which thrive on
bashing other persons ideas, theories and beliefs.
Has it ever occurred to you that there may be many differnt
aspects to spirituality. For some, toiling away in a soup
kitchen may actually be sinful, as it will only lead them
to feel depression, hopelessness and despair. For others,
$300 lectures and expensive massage oils may constitute
a spiritually-unacceptable level of conspicuous consumption,
while others may be in a phase where the the discovery of the
body and it's maintenance are the critical issues of this lifetime.
There is no system that works for everybody because everybody's
experiences are unique. There are, however, systems that will
work for large numbers of people who share similiar experiences
or patterns in their development. These will naturally tend to
attract persons for whom they are appropriate. They will also
occasionally attract persons for whom they are *not* appropriate,
these will become disillusioned and should be allowed to leave.
But who is to say that the experience will have been a complete
waste?
To be sure, selfless service is an enriching, spiritually
nourishing experience. But for those who are disinclined,
they may get nothing out of it and only become more selfish.
And consider, persons who attend expensive, fraudulent workshops
believing they are finding their "spiritual path", may be
learning an important spiritual lesson on gullibility!
I think most of us are in agreement that we recieve some sort
of inner guidance. We simply disagree on it's source. IMHO,
the differing concepts of what that source is, is not of
crucial importance. Listening, attuning to, being guided by
that source is the important thing.
Neal/B
|
| 1084.35 | A tradition is a living thing, or it is dead. | CADSYS::COOPER | Topher Cooper | Tue Jul 18 1989 17:50 | 35 |
| RE: .33 (bruce)
Change is an inevitable part of the world. For a tradition, spiritual
or otherwise, to survive it must serve a function (not necessarily an
obvious one, or the intended one). For it to continue to serve its
function as change occurs it must adapt and change. The vital
(meaning "living" rather than neccessary) traditions and cultural
institutions all include the capability for self-change and adaptation.
Generally that capability is subtle and its existence is denied by
some.
Change within the tradition's/institution's own rules/traditions for
change maintains authenticity. Violation of those rules, whether
by inappropriate change or by refusal to change when called for
destroys authenticity.
In every generation of a tradition there are reactionaries who seek
to preserve the body of the tradition even at the cost of destroying
the its heart and soul; there are radicals who seek to destroy both
the body and the soul and make it over into something else entirely;
and there are moderates who seek to simply preserve what can be
preserved, changing as little as possible and prefering a great change
in the body to a small change in the heart and soul but willing to
accept the latter if it is unavoidable. The problem is, of course,
in distinguishing between the three -- particularly when the rules of
change are implicit as they genererally are.
In the past, errors tended to have small consequences, since change was
slow and there was time to readjust. In the last few decades, however,
change has been so rapid that it takes extraordinary wisdom (and
generally extraordinary good luck) to see what changes *must* be made
to preserve the relevance and therefore the life of cultural
institutions and what changes will simply destroy everthing.
Topher
|
| 1084.36 | Snicker snicker | UBRKIT::PAINTER | Celebrate life! | Tue Jul 18 1989 18:18 | 11 |
|
Re.34 (Barnette)
Hi Neal,
Gee - a familiar node if I ever saw one! (;^) Thanks - I enjoyed that
one.
Cindy
PS. Will have more to say in this topic in a minute - or two.
|
| 1084.37 | A minute or 2 later | UBRKIT::PAINTER | Celebrate life! | Tue Jul 18 1989 19:31 | 51 |
|
Some thoughts on Service...
Arthur is correct in saying that there are hungry, poor and starving in
the world and that they should be helped by those who are more
fortunate.
I believe that most of us already help, either directly or indirectly,
(consciously or unconsciously) to alleviate these conditions. This is a
very positive place, this DEJAVU conference, and positive energy begats
more positive energy, and the cycle continues.
At the risk of embarrassing Frederick (my good buddy - along with Arthur,
Bruce, Jeff, Steve K, Mikie and lots of others in this conference), I
would like to show how this process works.
Frederick and I joined this conference several years ago. He kept
talking about this Lazaris character (;^) and the messages he was
unselfishly typing in really reached me in a very positive way. As
some of you know already here, I had a less-than-happy childhood, which
is partly the reason behind my typing in note 688 on Adult Children.
Some of the messages that Frederick typed in assisted me greatly in
overcoming my own past and healing the old wounds to a point where I
could then go out and help others to do the same thing. And they help
others, and they help others, and on and on. I don't think that
Frederick had any idea in the beginning that he would help so many
people heal their own pasts, but it happened this way nonetheless.
It's a kind of a cascading effect. Lazaris wasn't the answer, and
never will be. It is the message and what is done with it that really
matters.
Thanks, Frederick - I appreciate the time you have taken over the years
unselfishly enter your lengthy messages because you have helped me and
many others along our paths.
And thanks to all of you who have helped me without expecting anything
in return. It was the first time I'd been able to consciously understand
what the words 'unconditional love' truly mean in practice.
It is only possible to be able to give love when one knows love. When
one finally realized what they have, it is something that they must
pass along, indeed it is no longer possible NOT to pass it along in
some form. Some people will send money to charities, some work in soup
kitchens, some adopt children, and some write positive messages in notes
conferences which inspire others to go out and do something expressive
along these lines on their own. And so on. It is ALL necessary and
important work.
May God/Goddess/All-That-Is bless,
Cindy
|
| 1084.38 | I really feel warmth HERE | VIDEO::NIKOLOFF | Piercing Illusions | Tue Jul 18 1989 23:20 | 19 |
| Hurray, Cindy!
You have said it ALL. But, lets not forget *you*. You have a beautiful
gentle, loving way of putting everything you write, and no matter what kind
of mood I am in when I read you if softens and becomes more positive after
reading your replies.... so thank you also.
I agree very much with what you have said about Frederick. Finding Lazaris
'WAS MY ANSWER' after years of searching'. Another thanks, Frederick.
I also look and try on others beliefs from here, and because of that it helps me
look deeper at the real things, love, love ones and ALL PEOPLE. I have
changed because of it. I think twice before passing by a person in need, a
hurt animal, etc.
So, lets all realize we are *learning and growing* and have FUN doing it!
Meredith E.
|
| 1084.39 | A helpful(?) analogy | BTOVT::BEST_G | Communion with the Sun | Wed Jul 19 1989 08:08 | 43 |
|
Though much has already been said on this subject (probably everything,
thanks to Cindy ;-) I thought of an analogy this morning that might
help to clarify things.
One member of a married couple works delivering a newspaper and is
thinking of quitting the job for a better paying one with more sane
hours. Coincidentally an editorial is run in the paper expressing
"the opinion of the newspaper" on, say, the issue of abortion (for our
purposes it doesn't matter what side they took). The couple feels
very strongly against this viewpoint and decide to make public the
fact that they are quitting so that their viewpoint and outrage are
allowed more exposure on television.
Some questions:
Are their motives authentic?
I say no.
Is it the effect that counts?
I say yeah. Although, folks on the "other side" might try to devalue
that statement for the sake of furthering their own view, they really
must believe it to be fighting for their side in the first place. One
side (in this issue) may be fighting for what they believe are lives,
and the other side may be fighting for what they believe are
inalienable rights (please, let's debate the concepts, not the issues).
So there are potentially positive results either way.
The fact that I picked the worst possible issue for my analogy is
unfortunate. But what matters for the sake of our argument is that
it seems, from this analogy (and in my opinion), that even selfish
ideas, or at least less-than-selfless ideas, are potentially good for
someone, somewhere at some time.
Please, let's not argue about abortion.
Guy
|
| 1084.40 | 'Nobody's right, if everybody's wrong...' | ATSE::FLAHERTY | Evolving, not revolving | Wed Jul 19 1989 09:51 | 16 |
| Thanks, Cindy. I too was going to reply to Neal's note to say how
much I liked it. But once again, you have really gotten to the
'heart' of the matter (a special gift that you have).
I was torn as I read each reply to this topic because I could see
'truth' in each one. I'd find myself going back and forth agreeing
first with Bruce, then Arthur, then Frederick, Jeff and so on (was
beginning to feel wishy-washy about it). Neal's note and yours
clarified it for me.
In part through the help of Dejavu and the experiences I've had because
of my involvement with it, I've truly begun to know and love myself and
in so doing have found that my spiritual path is one of 'service'.
Ro
|
| 1084.41 | I am not the meek or lost...nor insensitive. | MISERY::WARD_FR | Going HOME--as an Adventurer | Wed Jul 19 1989 12:41 | 76 |
| ...Gosh, nothing like losing the whole node after 30 minutes
of typing to humble oneself! (Martyr, martyr!!)
After all that, I don't feel like repeating myself...
Thank you, Cindy, and Meredith, too. Let me say that I, too,
could easily vacilate between "sides" as Ro did. In fact, I argued
from the same side Arthur did just last night (but with awareness that
I had another side, too.) Value is subjective, we've talked about
this before. Being of service is also subjective. And (to save
you a few dollars, here, Arthur) Lazaris has pointed out that being
of service is the most difficult focus ("purpose", "mission", etc.)
there is...for it walks the line; it walks the line between martyrhood
["Look what I do for these people"] and negative ego in the better than
mode ["Gosh, they are so undeserving, look at how much better I am
than they are."] I don't believe being of service is one of my
focuses. And yet I apparently AM of service to some people. My
focuses are more "selfish" than that (subjectively looking, of course.)
So, yes, I am selfish in that way.
What if I weren't so selfish? About a dozen years ago, I was
pretty much in strict survival mode ($2500 gross income that year
with thousands of dollars in bills--along with a divorce and a son
I desparately wanted to positively contribute to.) I didn't do much
of anything for myself for more than three years...no vacations,
no "gifts", no partying, no "women"...and I was quite miserable.
Finally I had enough. I decided I would go to massage school (because
I thought it would enhance my "communications skills" with women...a
major concern of mine.) This was in spite of the fact that I still
owed thousands of dollars to various bills. Instead of spending
it on a vacation or clothes or whatever, I spent what I considered a
large $1000 on "me" learning to rub "expensive massage oils" onto
bodies. You know what? I consider it one of the best moves of my
life! It had a major and dramatic impact not only on me but on those
in my life, as well. I was directly and indirectly led to a greater
sense of self-love and spirituality (which had gone from a serious,
dedicated, involved Catholic into the sewer of "nothing".) I
discovered millions of things I had never known about before. And,
though my life hasn't been wonderful all the time in every aspect,
there is little resemblance to what it was "just" twelve or 13 years
ago. One thing led to another which led to another...and I am
very grateful for all the events that led me to certain of the
paths I encountered or discovered.
When I first entered this notesfile, I had no idea what was
going on here. My biggest concern was not to others, but rather
to myself...what was my negative ego doing and to what extent
was it involved? My negative ego is still a major concern for me.
But I am now also aware that I have an impact. Along with a
responsibility to others who could alter their lives one way or
another contingent on a few words. Or to those I love and hold
special. I make an effort not to proselytize, but rather to act
out of integrity and caring. But to ACT! Not obnoxiously, if I
can knowingly avoid it, but by showing a way to others who may
or may not be looking for possibilities. And not to be gullibly
led into a primrose path of self-deception or hurt. NO, this is
all very real and authentic to me. I am adhering to my own principles
and my own ideals with as much character and integrity as I know
about. My beliefs will change, undoubtably. But my authenticity
is as real as I can make it. I won't tell anybody to spend $300
for a workshop. If spending $300 on tennis lessons is more valuable
to you, or giving $300 to an orphanage is more important to you,
do it. I will continue to be "selfish" and spend a noticeable
portion of my income on self-growth and what to me is my spirituality.
"All beliefs are false, choose the ones that work" is something I
hold as true. For now, these are my beliefs and they work for me.
"Coincidentally," someone in this conference sent me a little
booklet I received yesterday. It is by someone I never heard of named
Stuart Wilde. To quote, "Life was never meant to be a struggle;
just a gentle progression from one point to another, much like walking
through a valley on a sunny day." His book echoes my position very
well. Sacrifice, stuggle, hardship, suffering, etc. are not the ways
in which I want my life. If $300 workshops and expensive massage oils
are my walk through a valley on a sunny day, then I offer apologies to
no one. I do it out of self-love, with harm to none, with the hopes
of sharing it with everyone.
Frederick
|
| 1084.42 | | STARDM::JOLLIMORE | Dancing Madly Backwards | Wed Jul 19 1989 13:10 | 23 |
| .41 Frederick
I'm very aware that your beliefs work for you and wouldn't think of
countering any of them.
I'd like to address this ... (not with you in particular, but in general)
> Stuart Wilde. ......... "Life was never meant to be a struggle;
> just a gentle progression from one point to another, much like walking
> through a valley on a sunny day."
I very much agree with this. I believe NO ONE should have to struggle
with life. The fact is, (in my reality) that for a good majority of the
world's population, life IS a struggle. To some inner city kids, a valley
on a sunny day is something that is experienced only through a book. So,
for some of us $300 workshops are our 'walk through a valley' while for
others there has never been any valley to walk through, literally or
figuratively.
What's this have to do with anything? I don't know either. I just felt
like saying it. ;')
Jay
|
| 1084.43 | to thine own self be true... | HYDRA::LARU | goin' to graceland | Wed Jul 19 1989 13:37 | 21 |
| I think Neal said it best...
Contrary to some opinion, I'm not at all afraid to
use my brain. I've thought about this quite a lot...
often enough to recognize that there is *no one correct
answer.* We each follow our own path, inner voice,
conscience, higher power, god, whateveryouwanttocallit...
sometimes we get distracted by lots of outside voices,
but in the long run, we know we *must* follow our own
heart, for therein lies authenticity.
For me to judge another's path is ludicrous, for I cannot
know the other's heart. For me to strive to have another
live *my* way, to follow *my* path, that they *should*
x and *should not* do y is the most selfish thing
I can do, and it indicates to me that I do not trust my own heart,
but require consensus for validation.
/bruce
|
| 1084.44 | Throw them a line...just make sure you have the other end. | MISERY::WARD_FR | Going HOME--as an Adventurer | Wed Jul 19 1989 14:13 | 76 |
| re: .42 (Jay)
What you have very tactfully said is similar to what Arthur is
saying. I, too, have a reality filled with those who are suffering.
Do I turn my back on them? Well, many of them might think so, but
I have a different awareness than that. To retreat to an argument
used in an earlier reply by someone or several, if you are coming
from self-love, you are better able to help others. If I suffer, it
doesn't really matter to me if everyone else is NOT suffering (in fact,
it just gives me more reason to justify my own victim/martyr scenario.)
If I suffer and everyone else is, what good is that? I am unlikely
to save anyone if I drown. I am more likely to prevent their drowning
if I'm strong and capable of pulling them to safety. Yes, there is
clearly a danger here. The danger is that I place myself so far
"ahead" of others that they become insignificant and unimportant. But
knowing it is enough, hopefully, to avoid that. Recently I was in
Tijuana, Mexico, for a few hours. As I walked across the border the
beggars were immediately obvious. Seeing small babies in their
mothers arms with flies gathered around has an impact. Seeing an
old woman standing there with her hand outstretched and looking into
her face, one eye completely missing and the other totally cataracted,
makes the pain of the reality quite real. But then there is the
dilemna. How does one help? Where does one begin? What happens with
whatever it is that is done to help? After all, do you really change
things by just giving or does it simply slowdown the "inevitable?"
I've learned a bit about money the past few years. Answering
some of the questions raised in DEJAVU has contributed to that
growth. Also, I have gratitude to my girlfriend, from whom I have
also learned about money and have therefore shifted in my views.
Though definitely not wealthy, her relatives and ancestors have
been (one great-uncle recently died and left $35 million dollars--
$30 million going to animal support groups, e.g.) and we have had
many discussions around money. As she has pointed out to me, she
uses her money NOT by directly giving it to the poor, but rather
by helping others in their livelihood. Not only does she buy
goods and services as the rest of us, but also helps support two
men who do yard work for her and two women who do house work. She
also helps keep a veterinarian happy along with a family who runs
a feed store. You see, it's her happiness that is contributing
DIRECTLY to the welfare of others. There is no greed there, if
you look closely. Rather it is her search for excellence and her
asthetic values that provide her with enough love to care to
maintain that around her. If we each love ourselves enough,
we can spread that cocoon to those close at hand. We don't have
to go to Africa or Bangladesh to do this. IF, on the other hand,
IF we are successful enough and loving enough, we can then help those
who are helping those near and far whom we might not even ever get
to know about. Then, perhaps, many of the 4 billion on the planet
who are suffering can find a means to end it.
Jay, I don't know if I can "defend" this any better. I understand
what you are saying and yet I cannot believe that simply turning my
income over to the planet is the smartest thing for me to do. Yes,
I FEEL! But I also THINK! I believe that the best thing for me to
do is to learn to love myself more. I do reach out to others. But
I especially reach out to those who are closest to me. I have a son
whom I love very much who is now facing $15,000 per year in school
expenses. I could turn my back on him and give help to someone I
don't know...or I could help him, who later on can provide help
together WITH me. This is my choice. I do not feel selfish about
it. I do not want to be made to feel guilty about it. If the world
had NO apparent wealth, if everyone lived in squalor, where would
the incentive be to motivate or be motivated? Those who have wealth
are beacons of inspiration to many to want to emulate them. And it
doesn't take great wealth to do so. The so-called spiritual beings
of our religions depend on handouts for their existence. Without
their handouts, do you think they'd be comfortable enough with
themselves to inspire us to want to be like them? No, most of us
are inspired by success. Granted, financial success does not equal
spirituality. But spirituality does not have to exclude financial
success.
I think I'm going to give this a rest now. I think I've said
just about all I need to.
Frederick
|
| 1084.45 | | STARDM::JOLLIMORE | Dancing Madly Backwards | Wed Jul 19 1989 14:49 | 16 |
| .44 Frederick
I'm certainly not asking you to 'defend' anything. Giving away what you
have isn't the answer, we agree. I *know* in my heart you 'FEEL' and
'THINK'. As /Bruce said, I can't tell you to do x and don't do y nor can
I make you feel guilty about anything.
Incentive to motivate or be motivated? Toward material wealth? Those who
have wealth are not my 'beacons'. Financial success <> spirituality, yes.
Spirituality does not exclude financial success? Let me think about this.
;') I think you've said far more than you need to ;') it's not a
challenge.
Jay
PS Small nit, it's *5* billion (by estimate) not 4 billion.
|
| 1084.46 | Happy thinking! | MISERY::WARD_FR | Going HOME--as an Adventurer | Wed Jul 19 1989 15:23 | 7 |
| re: Jay .45
RE: the nit. I know...I was referring to those who are
struggling, not necessarily all humans of Earth.
Frederick
|
| 1084.47 | authenticity... ...world harmony | ELMAGO::AWILLETO | Beat those heathen drums... | Wed Jul 19 1989 20:11 | 31 |
| The "tone" of this topic certainly has certainly changed when Neal
Barnette, Cindy Painter, and Toper Cooper joined in.
I am glad to know that I have such fine co-noters to learn from.
I am going to backtrack to .0 -- and I believe the person was referring
to a note I entered in the previous topic, "Native American
Spirituality for Hire" about New Age and charlatan self-help ripoffs.
I find that I agree with Toper regarding "authenticity" -- especially
about the dilemma of rapid change and the resulting lack of time
to have change be accepted.
Overall, What I can do best is the best gift I can give to the earth
and it's inhabitants. If I enjoy personal harmony, then it radiates
"spiritually" to others, thus all others in my reach is affected.
If I am best at helping at soup kitchen, nursing, lecturing, and
I enjoy doing these activities, then I contribute harmony each time
I perform them.
I may not like how the charlatans rip off a culture and it's values,
but then we all have our function in this world. I see a _____ that
I dislike for whatever reason, but there is someone who would find
it proper and enjoys it -- good, it's purpose has been fulfilled.
I cannot judge whether it is authentic or not, else I lose my personal
quest for harmony for a moment, and a small gap in the world harmony
results (*shudder*).
It's all a very personal quest, this life...
Tony Willeto
|
| 1084.48 | other motives? | NATASH::BUTCHART | Intergalactic Elephant | Thu Jul 20 1989 11:23 | 42 |
| I feel that some peoples' distress about the "inauthenticity" dilemma
stems from other sources than just self-righteous justification of
their own opinions. Based on people I actually know, (yours truly
included here) I theorize about a couple of motives:
(1) That some may be sensitized to how much has been ripped off from a
people already and how that peoples' image and life has already been
manipulated and exploited for less-than-wonderful ends. The Native
Americans have suffered tremendously in this regard at the hands of my
ancestors. And when they see things that look like this is happening
in regard to sacred matters, they think, "omigod, not this too! Is
there no limit to the exploitation??" And even if people are actually
helped, they feel that the manner in which the help was rendered is
wrong, because it violates an already disenfranchised group.
(2) That some may consciously or intuitively sense that the many
seekers who have not yet arrived at the realization that "authentic"
spirituality is profoundly unique to each individual, are being ripped
off. I have known those who, convinced of their basic "unworthiness"
and feeling totally inauthentic themselves, are looking for The Way in
order to validate their right to exist -- period. But many have been
so trained NOT to trust their inner Selves that they feel the only way
to attain any kind of spiritual/personal growth is to have
Someone-More-Wise-Than-Them show them "The True Way". If this is what
they are trying to hook up with, "traditions" that were created on the
spot, however helpful, are setting them up for more disillusionment and
trauma. One can argue that this very trauma will serve to gently (or
roughly) boot them along their own true paths. That's probably true,
but there are those who agonzed if they feel these people are suffering
needlessly. And no, I don't feel this that all this anguish is merely
ego aggrandizement on the part of those who agonize on their behalf; it
is more often (in my own experience) over-identification with the
sufferers, so that the sufferers' pain feels truly their own, and the
only way they think they can feel better is to ease the sufferers'
plight. We are all, I think, more permeable in this regard than we
realize, and I now feel it takes no small amount of will to develop a
strong, flexible ego (rather than destroying it) to be able to exercise
the needed detachment to stay out of this particular trap. It's all
the more difficult if one is also striving to live out ideals of
brotherhood, empathy, right service, the whole schmear.
Marcia
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| 1084.49 | | UBRKIT::PAINTER | One small step... | Fri Jul 21 1989 19:33 | 8 |
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Re.38 (Nikoloff)
Thank you, Meredith - that was very kind of you to say.
With love,
Cindy
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