Conference hydra::dejavu

    Karen,
    
    Thanks for typing that article in.  It is an issue I've been struggling
    with and the article is certainly food for thought.
    
    Ro
    

    So, what else is new...
    

    re: .0
    
         And from the letters to the editor (Forum) in NEW AGE magazine
    for July/August, 1989 there are several "supporting" (to .0) points
    of view.  I do not wish to retype the 4 or 5 letters, but I will
    type in two of them (only 1 in the bunch was supportive of Lynn
    Andrews.)
                         * * * * * * *
    To have the issue of Lynn Andrews's "fact-or-fiction" books brought to
    public attention is an example of responsible journalism.
    
    Fascinated by the web woven by Medicine Woman, I was compelled in 1986
    to write to Lynn Andrews and to ask if what she had written was real or
    perhaps a fictional narrative based on "something" real.  Basically I
    needed to know what, if anything, was real.  I mentioned that I might
    want to study with her *if* the spiritual experiences were real.
    
    In her response, Lynn ignored my question, stating that I was a "bright
    light" in her life, and then proceeded to tell me that her fee was $100
    per hour for "shamanistic psychology."
    
    Anyone attracted to the Lynn Andrews web of storytelling should ask 
    themselves this:  Does reality ever present itself with a story line
    as pat as that of the Lynn Andrews chronicles, especially one a year
    for four straight years?  What human can-in one year-experience all
    that is recounted in any one of the books, spend at least two months
    promoting the previous book, maintain a counseling practice, *and*
    write a new book?
    
                         Fay Mrini, Bronx, NY
    
    I have been an avid reader of yours for a year and a half.  In that
    time I have mostly appreciated your reporting, and when I disagreed
    with it I still found that it was unbiased.
    
    That is not the case with the article on Lynn Andrews.  The reporting
    was sensationalistic.
    
    I have studied with Lynn twice a month for over two years, and I have
    studied with a few Native American teachers of shamanic practices, and
    also with Wiccan shamans.  I have found Lynn to be the best kind of
    teacher.  She is experiential, and she encourages me to study with
    other qualified teachers, even giving me introductions.  She does not
    claim to be a Native American, guards against becoming a "guru" by
    seeing that you are the one who is empowered by her sessions, and
    covers a wide array of healing practices in her teachings.  I know
    other credible teachers, born and raised in Native American traditions,
    who endorse her and encourage me to work with her.  That your reporters
    could get no endorsement from any "native" supporter or other bona fide
    shaman means that they did not follow up on the available leads.
    
    *If* Lynn's stories are fictitious, and I do not believe that they are,
    they nonetheless have moved countless numbers of women, and some men,
    to move out of their everyday existence and to reach for their
    spiritual essence.  My fellow students say that even if Lynn were a
    fiction-writing shaman they would stand by her, and that they could not 
    turn their backs on someone who has done them so much good.  Why was 
    *that* not covered in your story? 
    
                     Debra Beck-Grossman, Ashland, OR
    
                     * * * * * * *
    
    Frederick
    

   I have known this sort of thing going on for some time now.
   
   I,  a Native American, Navajo full-blood (I have papers), knew
   that Americana greed would reach beyond the Japanese-made Indian
   pottery or Mexican-made Indian rugs -- Native American Spirituality
   for Hire(!?), a new low/high.
   
   "New Age" a silly, hyped buzz-word for the same old thing -- a new
   definition to explain and cultivate the self.  There are many who
   think they are "helped" by this new awareness, and I cannot deny that
   there are some among my people that have been swooned into the muck
   with everyone else.   Never would I have imagined a local "skin"
   (that's Amerind for you sociological types) playing a *guitar* in
   Chaco Canyon on New Age Day!  **Jeeeeez - how ridiculous!**
   
   My grandfather was happy to see the Space Age come about.  He said,
   "Maybe when the White Man discovers exploitable resources out
   there then they'll all leave Mother Earth and let us have our land
   back."  Well, he never lived to see that day.
   
   I don't bother myself too much with this exploitation stuff; too many
   non-Navajos to contend with.  I am happy to continue my own personal
   harmony- maintenance `program' for personal growth and fulfillment.
   
   It's called, "Hozh�j��."
   
   Tonester
   
   (Besides, the charlatans and his followers deserve each other.)  :^)

    I read the article on Lynn Andrews that suggests that her works
    are fiction.  David Carson, Medicine Card fame and Lynn's ex-beau,
    made the charges that he wrote Lynn's first 3 books.  He was looking
    for a settlement from her.  States that Ruby and Agnes were fashioned
    after his aunts.  Her later books were in the same style as the
    first books and David doesn't claim these.  The article also stated 
    that Lynn donates 1/2 of all the money she makes from her workshops 
    to The Sisterhood of the Shields.
    
    I'm not defending her, I do enjoy her books.  At $300 for a workshop,
    I don't intend to participate but will definately go to the library
    and get her latest two books, "Windhorse Woman" and "Teachings Around
    the Sacred Wheel," and read them.
    
    
    Joanne
    

Some people are just plain reaping off the 'New Age' craze. They are
opportunists and as the Toaster, er Tonester said: a charlatan and his
followers deserve each other.

There are some Amerinds that also are exploiting an opportunity. But I
believe there is more to it than that. I believe there are some great
elders who are teaching some white folk and helping Mother by doing so.
There is a sincere interest among some white people to live the Native
American spirit. Some find their way to a teacher who isn't in it for the
money. One way to find those that are sincere is to offer simple programs
to the masses, which serves two purposes. One; it makes some money by
filling a legitimate desire (there is a large market out there). To those
not-so-sincere who belive they can buy some spirituality in a weekend, it
gives an opportunity to spend some cash.  Two; it draws those that _are_
sincere and gives them an opportunity to network with others who are of
like mind, and make contacts that will lead to an eventual teacher. Sun
Bear's Medicine Wheel gatherings are like that.  The money is used for
things that you don't read about in articles like the one in the base
note. He has a lot of other things going, and people all over the world
working locally on earth awareness things. He sells a weekend in the
woods to people who want that experience. If people see only that, then
he appears to be just profiting off a trend, offering yuppie-sweats. If
someone wanted to look beyond that, they would see some of the things
that happen as a result of the network he established and strengthens by
these gatherings.

fwiw :^)
Jay

    re: .4
    
         I think that your self-discovery is wonderful.  That you can
    stand confident of who you believe yourself to be is a wonderful
    asset most of us strive to emulate.  As a companion note (1084?)
    states, truth is where we find it.  Coming from a "purist" position,
    it no doubt is scary/disgusting to see things stretched beyond 
    their original shape.  But, as we discover, nothing stays the same.
    Change is a welcome addition to growth.  Spinning our wheels is 
    one thing...but spinning the wheel someone says we should be spinning
    is quite another.  The New Age may be a rehashing of the Old World,
    for many, even most, people.  For me it is not.  The New Age is
    an emergence of the conscious mind...it is a full realization that
    we are responsible for our creations.  The Old World did not have that
    understanding.  The Old World came from the unconscious mind and later
    the subconscious mind.  While it beautifully showed our relationship
    with the creation, it lacked the control that responsibility entails.
        There is perhaps no humanity that has ever had more respect for 
    the earth than the American Indians have had.  We all "owe" them thanks
    for their awareness and care.  We have much to learn from them in
    that regard.  To me it does not mean that I must do it in a manner
    that was totally appropriate for them to do it, however.  *I* live
    in a New Age, and it is up to me to learn from whatever sources I
    choose how to discern and embrace my reality.  My spirituality is
    not dependent on ancient teachings, rather it is dependent on my
    relationship to other aspects of myself, smaller or greater.  But
    that choice is internal, and I make it consciously.
        I encourage you to continue to live your life happy...happy with
    all the choices you have made, consciously, sub-consciously or 
    un-consciously.  Living with principles and character is abundantly
    important.  Continue with them, by all means.  Recognize that each
    of us has our own, and ultimately has to stand before the greatest
    authority, ourselves.
    
    Frederick
     

   
   Frederick of .7,
   
   Thank you.
   
   I am glad you brought up the idea of perspective.  I didn't mean to
   say that the New Age `sensation' is bad altogether, just that the
   perversions of holy-things are what is undesirable.  False or perverted
    things do not promote harmony.
   
   From a Non-Navajo perspective, I guess I would regard Native American
   Spirituality in many different ways; but the current wave of thought,
   tagged New Age, grasps NA-ness as "right."  NA has much mysticism and
   naturalness associated with it.  NA emulates sharing rather than
   owning things.  "I own this plot of land," compared to "I own a
   fingernail of the Virgin Mary."  A horrible thing to say.
   
   If there is a true sincerity, all who wish to enjoy the sharing of
   the wisdoms and prayers of the NA are indeed welcome -- it's not owned
   but is given.  There is power among us, and it requires a strong will
   and sincere commitment to ride with it  (you can't put it in your
   pocket).  So, "truth is wherever you find it," "the truth will set
   you free," "the truth hurts," sayings may guide some and solace a
   person into believing they possess a truth.  I wish I could blindly(?)
   say I can find "it" anywhere; but reality causes me `dust off' the
   sugar-coated pap that is offered me and maintain stable in the
   personal harmony I can say I am a part of.  But then we're back to
   perspective again.
   
   We all must find "it" if we wish to be whole. and yes, we will all
   ultimately have to stand before the greatest authority, *ourselves*.

   (Unfortunate for some, they don't know their self and have a desire to
   seek it in a workshop(!) or a book!)
   
   Hozhoj�� (May Harmony be your path)
   
   Tony Willeto 
   
                                        

    A few weeks ago, we had two house guests for a week.  This was a
    couple that are old dear friends of my wife.  I'd never met them
    before (we've been married 6 years).  The woman is white, the man
    Colombian, quite dark.  They have been living in a commune in Missouri
    for the past 4 years or so.  This commune has a rather eclectic
    blend of Buddhism, martial arts and Native American spirituality.
    
    They passed thru our city on their way back from a Ghost Dance.
    Yes, Ghost Dancing has made a comeback.  This one has an interesting
    story.  Apparently an ancient Indian burial ground was discovered
    smack in the middle of Camp Pendleton, a Marine training base near
    San Diego.  According to certain U.S. regulations, this land was
    deeded to a nearby tribe, who have been sponsoring yearly Ghost
    Dances at which native and whites alike are welcome.  So this couple
    had just returned from 4 nights of dancing.  Yes, all these Native
    Americans and whites just drove up to the gates at Camp Pendleton
    and demanded admission... and stayed 4 days and nights.
    
    The man, Alfonso, has been rediscovering his tribal identity, and
    indeed has attended the last few Sun Dances, held on a big reservation
    near the Black Hills (I forget the name).. and has the scars on
    his chest from the incisions (they hang for hours at a time from
    ropes inserted under the chest muscles).  Because of his color
    he is welcome at ceremonies unavailable to whites.  They consider
    the native american spirituality a totally appropriate focus for
    them.  I found them a bit fixated on the subject, but they were
    still on the high from the Ghost Dance.  It's hard to say more,
    I liked them very much, and their path seems solid for them, and
    bizzare to me.
    
    karl in Tucson

    re:       <<< Note 1083.8 by ELMAGO::AWILLETO "Beat those heathen drums..." >>>
   
 >  I am glad you brought up the idea of perspective.  I didn't mean to
 >  say that the New Age `sensation' is bad altogether, just that the
 >  perversions of holy-things are what is undesirable.  False or perverted
 >   things do not promote harmony.
    
    	It seems to be the way of man to make sacred things profane and
    profane things sacred.
    
    	Over time everything changes...

    
    Hi Mikie,
    
    >It seems to be the way of man to make sacred things profane and
    ...                        ?
    
    Shades of Alan Watts!  (;^)  My other hero...
    
    Cindy

   The subject matter of this topic -- that Native American Spirituality
is being exploited -- is not suprising to me. Native American Spirituality
is merely the latest in a series of victims of the greed, self- aggrandizement, 
and folly that have plagued all high spiritual paths.

   Spiritualism, Psychology, Wicca, Voudoun, Kabalah, and Yoga are just a few 
of the disciplines which have been distorted, misused, cheapened in our 
society. We've seen the debased forms they took when they were "popularized".
Every time masses of people "discoverd" a spiritual discipline, it has been
obscured in the murk generated by ripoff artists, charlatens, and people who
used parts of it to justify their own unsupportable beliefs.

   Fortunately, despite the murk which obscures the light of their reality,
they were still able to survive. Even when they were taught in a distorted
way, they helped fill our spiritual needs -- even when their "help" 
consisted  only of leading sincere seekers to their true forms. Many have been 
fooled, but even those who were fooled have often found new channels for
growth within the framework of the distorted teachings.

   I guess what I am trying to say is that I am saddened that yet another
fine spiritual tradition has been victimized by our society. At the same time,
however, I hope that those who are capable and true Seekers will find their
way past the myths, lies, and illusions to find the true Light which 
illuminates their spiritual path -- whatever that path may be.

                                                     -Robert Brown III

    RE: <-.1>
    
    Thanks, Robert.
    
    I guess, greed in it's obsession to "obtain" more-n-more, is indeed
    heedless of the tradition whereof it devours.
    
    I am only lamenting the idea that as greed has brought about the
    destruction of the earth and has resulted in deserts and cancers
    of our physical being, that the same deformities will haunt us in
    other non-physical realms.
    
    T

    Notes 1083.14 - 1083.43 have been moved to note 1127.3 - 1127.30
    
    	- Bill Keefe (moderator)

From the Jan./Feb. 1990 issue of Utne Reader:

"Sun Bear responds

In your July/Aug. 1989 issue article titled "Shamans or 
charlatans?" your author Mordecai Specktor reports quotes about 
me and other native and non-native teachers to which I take 
exception.  He says of me: "Sun Bear (Napoleon LaDuke, a 
Chippewa) has enriched himself by charging Americans and 
Eurpoeans sizable membership fees to the 'Bear Tribe' and selling 
ersatz sweat lodge and medicine wheel ceremonies to anyone who 
wants to play Indian for a day and can afford the price of 
admission."  The man he quotes as saying this is Ward Churchill, 
who in fact makes a good living exploiting Indians by teaching 
his own interpretation of Indian culture at the University of 
Colorado in Boulder.  Now in actuality, I was born in Mahnomen 
County, Minnesota, August 31, 1929, on the White Earth Indian 
reservation.  My birth certificate says "Vincent Eugene La Duke."  
My name, Sun Bear, was given to me by my elders when I was a 
child.  I receive $100 per month as a stipend from the Bear 
Tribe.  All of the money for my workshops goes to the Bear Tribe, 
a non-profit group.  There is *no charge* for membership to the 
Bear Tribe.  The people who are members and work there full time 
receive a stipend or small salary.  There has *never* been a 
charge to come to any sweat lodge ceremony, pipe ceremony, or 
other ceremony.  Many of these ceremonies are conducted by 
respected elders, such as Wallace Black Elk, Lakota; Bear Heart, 
Muskogee Creek; Joseph Eagle Elk, and others.  The Medicine Wheel 
is not limited to native American teachers, but African, Hawaian, 
Japanese and Anglo teachers are part of it too, because we 
believe that each person has something to give to the whole.  So 
obviously attending a Medicine Wheel Gathering doesn't mean 
"playing Indian for a day."  At the Medicine Wheel Gatherings 
we have taken up collections of food, blankets, and clothing for 
many native and non-native peoples.  A small portion of my other 
work includes helping through a seed bank that provides garden 
seeds to many people.  We also provide a market for many native 
people's crafts, and sponsor self-help projects.  

Sun Bear
Spokane, WA"