Conference hydra::dejavu

    This brought to mind an incredibly prophetic dream I had as a 
    teen. 
    
     I was 18 at the time and going out with a wonderful girl who 
    was 16. Everything was great except that she was a virgin and 
    wanted to stay that way. I accepted the situation but all the 
    while, it was driving me crazy. 
    One night, I dreamed that I was having sex with this other girl
    that was among our circle of friends and Susan walked in on us.
    She didn't actually walked in, she floated, glowing like a neon
    sign..I remember at first feeling startled and then a sense of ease
    as she gently placed on my chest, a necklace I had given her.  She
    then left and I cried for the hurt I had caused her.
    When I awoke, I remembered the dream vividly but I never dicussed
    it with anyone. The necklace had me concerned though...the day I
    bought it, my grandfather died in our shower, the day before Xmas.
    About a month later, we had split up over the sex issue and ironically
    I began dating the other girl in my dream. Of course, sex was now
    a daily ritual and I felt I had made the right decision breaking
    it off with Susan. Not good reasons...just teen reasons. 
    A few more months passed. My new found love (I'll call her Jane)
    and I were parked in my car at the center of town when we heard
    a tremendous car crash. We zipped down the road and were the first
    ones on the scene. One of the car's drivers was a selectman's daughter.
    She was walking around, dazed and obviously drunk. We sat her down
    and went over to inspect the other car. There was a girl lying on
    the front seat unconcious, her legs trapped between the car door
    and the dash. It wasn't until they were using the jaws of life was
    I to learn, it was susan. She died later that evening. 
    At the funeral, her mother approached me with the necklace and told
    me that Susan was wearing it the night she died. Of course, I nearly
    passed out. I asked that Susan be buried with it and left in a state
    of shock. To this day, I'm haunted by this experience. But there's
    more......
    As I said, the girl who ran into susan was drunk and on the wrong
    side of the street. Several of my friends who had seen her at a
    bar, testified against her. Nonetheless, her father, a selectman
    and very powerful figure in town, got her off. 
    Susan's brother Billy, greiving from the loss, sent a letter to
    the selectman and signed it "Susan". I'd never seen it, but heard
    it contained some statements like "you'll burn in hell" and "I'm
    dead because of your daughter"  The selectman died of a massive
    brain hemorage about a year and a half later. Billy was run over
    by a crane at a construction site EXACTLY 5 years to the day, of
    Susan's death. 
    I know this sounds like a screenplay but it's the truth, every bit
    of it. Life is strange, strange indeed. 

    re: .0 
    
    	   Yes, the pattern is obvious.    When women want marriage,
    	men want out.
    
    re: .1
    
    	   Sounds to me like you found an amulet of power in that
    	necklace.  Do not be surprised when Susan's ghost visits
    	you in the night.  That will complete the prophecy of the
    	dream.
    
    	- Greg

    re: -1
    
    Except that THIS woman did not want marriage with any of them! 
    Nor did I not want marriage.  In fact, it was not really on my mind
    until they brought it up (several weeks before the break-ups).  
    Two of them had discussed their general feelings about marriage/
    commitment (one afraid of, one wanting to rush 
    into).  They brought the subject up--not me.  My response was pretty 
    much the same to each...I'm not in a hurry to make a commitment,
    it takes time to build a relationship & I wouldn't make lifetime
    commitments until I was really sure about the other person.
    
    I suggest that you do not assume what is not written or suggested
    in any way in the base note!
    
    Mary                       

    RE: .0
    >
    For the 3rd time in a row I've dreamed that a man I'm involved with
    (and like a lot) asked me to marry him.  And for the 3rd time in
    a row, he unexpectedly (and without provocation) broke up with me
    immediately (the next time I saw him).
     
    I think I'm beginning to spot a trend :-(      <
    
    	You can tell that it's been awhile since I been in this conference.
    Anyway, I have some questions regarding this man of yours.  Each
    time he broke off the relationship was it over something very petty?
    Then was he very sorry for the incident and apologetic afterwards?
    Are you still dating, or is it over, or have you planned to marry?
    Have you ever asked him if he wants to get married?
    
    	Now for the reason I'm asking.  Perhaps in your subcouscious
    dream state you are actually picking up his desire to marry you,
    but although he may actually have the desire to do so, he is insecure
    and unable to deal with the issue of asking you to marry him.  Perhaps
    he is afraid that you will say no.  Perhaps he feels that he may
    not be able to fulfill the role, etc.  And subconsciously he deals
    with the issue by breaking up over some petty issue, at least
    temporarily resolving the problem.
    
    	If you are still going together, have you ever discussed marriage?
    Perhaps you may need to break the ice.  Don't dive into it, but
    break it open in some manner that he may feel at ease with.  Discuss
    the possibilities and commitments, what each of you want out of
    marriage and life, and if you talk about a date, make it way in
    the future, at least to ease the situation, and if he chooses to
    push it up, then fine.  Otherwise, he may feel he's being pushed into
    a corner and bolt and run!                         
    
    Dan

    re: .4
    
    I'll try to answer your questions.  There were 3 different men.
    We didn't fight and break up.  Things were pretty relaxed and suddenly
    they didn't want to see me anymore.  Their reasons were pretty vague.
     One decided to sell everything he owns and move to Oregon.  One
    said he decided that we wouldn't be able to get along in a day-to-day
    relationship.  I forget the third.  Who knows?
    Mary

    
    	   Ending a relationship (or potential relationship) is never 
    	terribly easy (at least, not for me).  Mixed feelings abound,
    	and defenses go up to protect the feelings on both sides.  A
    	simple, quiet separation is never really that, not inside anyway.
    
    	   People emit a wide spectrum of energies which can be felt by
    	those they come in contact with.  In a relationship, these energies
    	come in close contact, and the results of that contact are not
    	always predictable.  Sometimes the energies mesh, strengthening
    	each other, increasing the total output of both parties.  Synergy.
    	Other times, the fields repel each other as with like poles of
    	magnets.  Contact of this sort feels confining, and cannot be
    	sustained for long periods.  Sometimes the fields draw to each
    	other, draining each side in the process.  Feelings are very 
    	intense in this sort of relationship, and separation becomes
    	very painful.  
    
    	   When a relationship is just starting, these energy fields can
    	tend to increase in power, providing the illusion of synergy
    	when the real source is still internal and individual.  Indeed,
    	it is often difficult to determine how the fields will mesh 
    	until they are turned up to near full force.  Only then do the
    	sublimated energies resurface, and these are often the ones that
    	attract/repel the most strongly.
    
    	   This, in my opinion, is why people stay in relationships that 
    	don't work until things get very serious.  When these
    	incompatibilities surface, it is often too late to completely
    	spare the feelings of the other(s) involved.  In such cases, there
    	are many approaches one can use to sever the relationship, with
    	varying degrees of impact on the other(s) involved (and on one's
    	self).  A quiet, friendly separation leaves tendrils of energy
    	intertwined, thereby causing confusion and anxiety.  Since the 
    	split does not completely resolve the linkages, they continue to
    	have an impact on those involved.  A harsh, violent separation
    	severs the energy links abruptly, and causes sudden pain, usually
    	lots of it.  This pain fades away, and completion is acheieved,
    	but the memory of the pain lives on.  Between these two extremes
    	there are a myriad of variations and combinations which have
    	a variety of combined influences on those involved.  Exactly
    	which method is used will depend on the individuals involved,
    	and the degree of incompatibility they perceive (i.e. their need 
    	for resolution).
    
    	   Your subconscious mind may have intercepted these energies 
    	at about the time of the breakup, in each case.  Your own 
    	energy levels were probably high at those times, which would
    	put you in a more receptive state.  Perhaps you drew on an
    	energy source, received the benefit you needed from it, and 
    	felt enlivened.  Perhaps that energy source was one of the 
    	triggers in the other person's alarm system, and feeling it
    	being drawn, they felt compelled to defend it.  This has 
    	happened to me on two occasions.  As the relationship began
    	to get stronger, I felt I was being drained of my emotional
    	energy, and felt I had to sever the relationship if I was
    	to retain any at all.
    
    	   No relationship is totally synergistic.  There are give
    	and take components of each, and when one needs to take what
    	another is unwilling to give, then the energy exchange is
    	short-lived (usually).  Adjusting one`s needs to fit the 
    	available supply is one means of holding together a relationship
    	that might otherwise suffer, but it is also a form of denial
    	the can cause internal conflicts.  Unless some source can be
    	found to fill the need, it eats away at the other energy 
    	centers.  And so we find the common excuse for multiplicity 
    	of relationships.
    
    	   It is extremely rare that two people can completely fulfill
    	the energy needs of each other.  This is the reason that the
    	majority of relationships also involve an element of external
    	interferance.  Unresolved needs must be filled by some means.
    	Yet this too exposes the relationship(s) to danger, since it
    	is rarely completely understood why those needs aren't fulfilled
    	internally.  When this happens, conflicts arise, and a change
    	in the energy interchange occurs.  If the change is drastic
    	enough, the relationship will probably end, as the fulfillment
    	factor is reduced on both sides.
    
    	   Note that all of these applied forces can affect your dreams.
    	How they affect your dreams is largely a function of how you
    	direct your own energies, and which energies you need to draw 
    	on (as well as your own perception of the best way to fulfill
    	your needs, which may be rooted deep in your psyche).  
    
    	   This is my own personal philosophy of relationships, and is 
    	merely an abstraction.  In fact, there are many needs not
    	directly related to specific energy fields (i.e. money, looks,
    	societal norms), but in my opinion, these are secondary and 
    	are used more often as rationalizations than as valid reasons
    	for separation.  They are used primarily because they are more
    	easily understood.  Try to explain to someone that they just
    	don't put out enough sentimental energy for you... that you
    	need more.  If they understand what you're saying, they probably
    	won't understand what you really mean.  These energy interchanges
    	are not easily explicable to others, any more than feelings
    	themselves are.  Yet external influences, such as money, are 
    	easily understood and accepted, even when they are known to be
    	rationalizations.
    
    	   I think I've rambled enough now.  I hope my message has come
    	through.  I find it difficult to describe these factors at 
    	present, with any degree of clarity.  Such is the price one
    	pays for controlling the feelings rather than just feeling
    	them.  
    
    	- Greg

    
    RE: .6   Greg-
    
         I can identify with your explanation and thought you conveyed
    it well.  It seems to fit my experience and even to some extent
    my system of thinking about it.  Perhaps the only reason it doesn't
    fit my system better is that I have difficulty distancing myself
    from my emotional situations long enough to see it objectively -
    therefore I have not been able to put it down to (you may not like
    this term) a rational or practical system.  
    
    Guy

    Last night I dreamed that the guy I've been seeing asked me to marry
    him.  Sigh.  I guess this means its time for another note in singles.
    
    Mary

    re: .8 (Marry Mary?)
    
         I'd like to suggest you work on your belief systems...  ;-)
    
    Frederick
    

    re: .9
    
    Well, Frederick, can you suggest some exercises? :-)
    
    Mary

    re: .9 (Mary-ed, with or without...)
    
    
         Yes, you can practice doing pushups on a mirror...oh, never
    mind, I see you're the *other* sex!  ;-)
    
         Actually, though, if you want to change beliefs it can be
    done, and not just intellectually (saying "I no longer believe
    in such-and-such" isn't really changing the belief.)  It requires
    desire, imagination and expection (sounds suspiciously like the
    tools of reality creation  ;-) ) and involves utilizing your
    sub-conscious mind.  First you must enter the sub-consicous and
    replace the old belief with the new one.  And this is to be
    done as many times as is necessary.  How do you enter the
    sub-conscious, yoo ask?  Probably a variety of ways.  The best
    way I am aware of is going into a meditation (relaxing, altering
    your processes down as much as possible short of un-consciousness)
    then while mentally in a safe place, taking a walk to a hidden
    door, entering the door, climbing down stairs of a steep path 
    through darkness into a series of hallways which can now be lit.
    Find a door that has the words "sub-conscious mind" spelled out
    on or over it, enter the room.  This room may be huge and vast and
    of Cecil B. DeMille proportions...with stacks and stacks and rows
    and rows of books, items of all sorts, etc.  Maybe reminiscent of
    a warehouse.  You may call in a silent helper of any type (human/
    non-human) and ask to be taken to the book of beliefs.  This
    helper (or you may do it alone) shows you to the book.  IT is a
    massive book sitting alone.  Open the book and find the page that
    has your current belief written on it.  Tear it out and burn it
    over the candle that you will find burning there.  Then, using
    the marking pen you also find there, find a blank page in the book
    and write in bold letters your new belief.  Study it.  Then close
    the book, thank the helper, leave the room and will yourself back
    to the original safe place.  Then you may exit the meditation.
    This process is full of symbolic meanings which are not important
    to understand.  Do they work?  Yes.  
    
         Since you asked, there it is.  If it doesn't work, it is because
    either the process wasn't done with excellence or perhaps there
    are related beliefs operant.  But this can be done over and over
    and it will doubtlessly be more powerful than anything done in 
    a "waking" state.  Clearly, you can abstain from using it.
    
    Frederick
    

    re: .10
    
    It sounds like a very interesting meditation...I will
    try it this weekend (since I know I'll be free ;-)!
    
    Mary
    

    RE: .11
    
    Frederick,
    
    The process you just described sounds absolutely foolproof but, what do
    you do if you haven't the capability of visualization?  I've tried to
    go on those walks to a quiet place, through doors, down stairs or
    sitting by a lake.  I just can't seem to do it.  Sometimes, I see a few
    vague visions but nothing substantial.  For some strange reason, I
    can't seem to make myself walk down stairs, at least that has any
    semblance to the real thing.
    
    Believe me, there are a lot of preconceived thoughts that I would like
    to change in myself.  I just can't seem to meditate.  Do you have any
    suggestions for me, I'd really appreciate it.
    
    Hugs,
    
    Fran

    re. -.1
    
    I've got the same difficulty with visualization although hopefully
    not for long. I think practice makes perfect...does it not?
    
    I know my wife can visualize w/o even closing her eyes!!! Are there
    ways for us who are not so inclined to develop this ability?
    
    any ideas 
    r.k.
    

    re. .13
    
    Can you daydream?  If so, you can meditate.  Keep trying.

    Terry

    re: Fran and .14
    
          Absolutely don't give up!  Doing so would only be ceding
    to your ego (which is of course highly interested in your failure.)
    Many, many people have the problems you describe...and, as alluded
    to by .14 (sorry, I forgot to see the name besides ::Kellogg), practice
    does indeed give rise to better.  Vision is only one of our sense.
    Some people have better sensations with their other senses.  All of
    us humans, however, share common experiences...though they are totally
    subjective.  We all have an experience of walking down a path, for
    instance, whether we are in wheelchairs or are blind or are deaf.
    If I say to you to see a doorway, I could easily replace the word
    see with sense to give it a meaning that is more appropriate to your
    condition (in meditation, specifically.)  So, even if you can't *SEE*
    these things, you can probably smell them (the earth, e.g.) or hear
    them (the rustle of feet or opening of doors or night noises, etc.)
    or even intuit these things (what do you normally "feel" when sitting
    by the ocean or when you feel protected and nurtured?)  Now then, in
    the process I described, to be specific, go though these things 
    mentally, out of meditation, and ascribe a sense to each step, even
    if you can't see it.  Then practice this sensation with eyes closed.
    Once confident, try the whole meditation.  As for meditation, it
    requires concentration along with body relaxation.  Meditation skills
    can be developed also, but I don't wish to go into this part of it
    just now (not enough time.)  There are guided meditations available
    from numerous sources (including friends who may be experienced at
    guiding) which may be more appropriate (initially at least) for some
    people.  Eventually, anyone could probably get to the stage of 
    solitary meditation.  It is helpful to carry it out fully, that is,
    to "get into" the senses as much as possible...this means involving
    as many of the senses as possible.  It is also helpful to recognize
    that a time limit (in non-meditative clock time, that is) of perhaps
    20 minutes should be kept.  This is not too long for a self-activated
    meditation, but longer may make it more difficult to maintain in 
    terms of focus.  Most likely this meditation can be accomplished
    in the range of 10-20 minutes.  The longer and more involved, the
    more impact it may have on the sub-conscious...but not necessarily.
    Something else that could be done is to record this process out loud
    into a tape recorder, giving what you feel is an appropriate pause
    between stages, then using your own voice for a guided meditation.
    This is helpful in avoiding stress from fear of failure, etc.  An
    effort should be made to separate oneself from one's body as much
    as possible, so even though you could activate a tape recorder
    while in meditation, it isn't as easy to get the depth.  
         I could go on and on, but hopefully you can get the idea.
    Yes, it requires work.  Mostly it requires willingness.  Then
    take that desire, keep the expectation and use as much imagination
    as you can conjure.  Instant enlightenment is not realistic for 
    most of us.  Practice can often propel one beyond consensus reality
    expectations.  If you fail, ask for help and keep in mind that
    a failure is probably a blockage or payoff that you would rather
    (less than consciously) hold onto.  However feebly one begins,
    they can and usually do gain momentum and expertise.
    
    Have fun.
    
    Frederick
    

    ...And while you're trying to improve your ability to meditate,
    there are many other things you can *try* too, with your eyes open.
    Here are some:
    
      Be aware of nature around you.  See it, smell it, feel it.
      Listen to the sounds of the wind and the birds.  Watch the 
      clouds drift across the sky.  Feel the sun on your body, or 
      listen to the rain.  Feel your connection with the rest of 
      life.  As you're aware of nature around you, imagine it being 
      aware of you! :-)  
    
      Then start asking yourself questions:  What do I want?  What 
      have I always wanted?  What am I fighting?  What am I going 
      to do with my life?
    
      At any time when you find yourself thinking things like, "I 
      can't do this", or "that's going to be horrible and painful", 
      or "this is going to take forever"...catch yourself, and see if 
      it's really necessary to plant these thoughts in your head.
    
    I believe there's much we can do to improve our awareness, and
    understand ourselves, by opening up to what's right in front of 
    us all the time.  This, I think, we can do before we have 
    perfected our technique of other processes.  So there's no reason 
    to wait for that perfection -- we can learn a great deal naturally
    if we're "ready" to.  By "ready", I mean one's WILLINGNESS TO SEE.
    I think the *ability* is already there...naturally.
    
    "Don't look around to find the sound that's right beneath your
    feet."  -- Traffic
    
    Jerri

    "Changing an old belief with a new one"  A belief is an Idea, a
    concept.  So changing one concept for another is the way to go?
    
    Jerry- Yes, very little energy is required in what you are describing.
    An "Ergonomic" description might be:
    
        Concerning visualization.  I, too, am one with very little ability
    to visualize.  It seems to me that the energy required to overcome
    this "handicap" is enormous. this energy could well be used in
    alternate ways. It seems to me that a more global method of "changing
    beliefs" is to *eliminate* all beliefs. That way we are open to the
    actual experiences not just the beliefs in them.   A belief is a
    preconcept if eventually validated or a concept if never validated;
    In the end, the belief in something never fully measures up to the 
    actuality. Quite often we can live with the actuality, but more
    often than not, we are less than content.
    Once we expend that great amount of energy changing from one belief
    to another, it seems that some time later another great amount of
    energy is again required to acquire a new belief;  this goes on
    ad nauseum because beliefs are only concepts, ideas; not what is
    actual.  If an intial investment of energy is placed in eliminating
    beliefs, in the beginning, a minimal continuing investment is required.
    One only need monitor themselves for a possible formation of a new
    belief.  Much more energy, then, is available for the actual experience.
    When one has invested much energy in changing from one belief to another,
    that investment must be protected (by the ego), it must then defend
    the new belief at all costs. In order to effect another change in
    a belief, more energy is required now to effect another
    change.  The ego gets more unsure of itself and more defensive; More
    energy is needed to effect the change than the previous time, because
    the eqo becomes more clinging and more *covert* in this clinging;
    it puts up more of a struggle.  Each new belief involves more and
    more energy to modify or change the belief, as the ego becomes more
    and more subtle in its battle to maintain status quo. Every time
    a change in beliefs is attempted, more and more energy is required.
    
    "Doing so would only be ceding to your ego" (referencing the non
    acceptance of perfecting visualization) But isn't clinging to any
    concept "ceding to your ego," even the concept that visualization
    and meditation is required. which seems to be proported in the
    above statement.    
     Jerri, I agree with being aware of what is happening external to
    us; I don't remember the full content of your last message, but
    i would like to propose that while being aware of what is happening
    around you, to also be aware of what is happening inside you. Not
    to act upon anything but just to witness our own feelings when what
    is happening outside us seems to be affecting the "inside" of us.
     Seeing and feeling and smelling tha nature around us can elicit
    good feelings within us, but when nature (people or animals or things)
    impose themselves upon us, just witness that also. I would suggest
    also seeing, feeling, and metaphorically smelling our reactions to those
    impositions from a more objective point of view. This is the overall
    intent of meditation, but at some time or another, one must make
    the transition from meditation to every day life.
    
    To be open to new situations, new possibilities, one must allow those
    possibilities; the opportunities for new situation, one must eliminate
    one's beliefs. Changing from one belief system to another changes
    only the selection of possibilities provided by the new belief system.
    Paradoxically, the elimination of all beliefs does not reduce ones
    total possibilities, but actually expands the number of possibilities
    in proportion to ones ability to eliminate all beliefs. 
    
    Jesus said:
    
    For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain,
    be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt
    in her heart, but shall believe that those things which she saith
    shall come to pass; she shall have whatever she saith.  Mk 11:22.
    
    What i get out of this is that Jesus wasn't saying so much as have
    "belief" but "accept" that it will be done and it will. Be open
    to the possibility.  Our faith is usually less than a grain of mustard
    seed because many of our beliefs are endelibly etched in concrete.
    The energy required to form a belief in something is enormous because
    of all those ineradicable beliefs that have been built up before
    the new one are fighting to maintain their existence.  If we have
    vestiges of beliefs inhibiting us of total acceptance of the situation,
    then beliefs are just that; concepts.  Eliminating all beliefs and
    by monitoring our reactions(feelings, actions, etc) we can consciously
    allow whatever we want to happen.  We tend to do this anyway, but
    on an unconscious level.  
    
    
     Ernie