Conference hydra::dejavu

    
    I really like the message there.  We can all benefit from trying
    to use this on a daily basis.  For example, how many of us have
    things happen to us when we're driving home, like someone just being
    rude and cutting us off and we feel like jumping down their throats.
    I've gotten to the point where I just try to forgive them, accept
    my own tendency toward anger, and then start to feel a whole lot
    better about life in general.  I know some folks who really let
    it get to them and even take a negative view of the world because
    of it, instead of taking a minute to think that perhaps they themselves
    inadvertently cut someone off at one time or another.  They are
    not willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt, in the case
    of driving or any other.  It is only self-destructive to be
    antagonistic.
    
    Guy
    

    re: .0 and .1
    
        Yeah, it sounds wonderful.  It has sounded wonderful to generations
    of people...it even sounds great when we read about it in the Bible.
    There is a big problem here, though.  You see, it isn't the forgiving
    of others that's the core of the problem.  It's the forgiving of
    self that is not only more difficult, but more important.  What
    happens when you, Guy, are the one who cuts the other guy off and
    he gets killed?  Do you say to him "I forgive you for causing me
    to do that?"  Where do we go with the guilt that we experience
    almost daily?  Do we go to our respective "confessionals" and
    say 'I forgive everyone for hurting me...and "God", will you 
    forgive poor wimpy, misunderstood me?'  Again, another situation
    where "something's wrong with this picture."
         The crux of this is understanding that the reality is a 
    reflection of the self.  That "out there" really isn't.  That it
    isn't them that needs forgiveness as much as it is ourselves.
    That forgiving of others is only a part of the job.  That we
    cannot complete until we get to the most important component,
    our core.
         So, I would say that yes it is useful to forgive others,
    but if you really want to take leaps and bounds with a fulfilling
    reality, work on self-forgiveness...and along with that add
    to the self-love (which can then lead to love of others.)
    
    
    Frederick
    

    
    
    re: .2
    
    F.Ward -  please RE-read the very last line of the passage I put
    in.....i think you jumped off the diving board before seeing if
    the pool was full ;^)

    /c
    

    
    re: .2
    
    ...and besides....and I can only speak for myself....is that when
    one truly forgives his trespassers....then....and it may not be
    immediately....one recognizes he has also forgiven himself....and
    only those who have experienced this glorification can understand.
    
    "me again"

    re: .3
    
        Okay, I re-read it.  I really don't think you wish to say that
    we must be free of self-love, do you?  Maybe it means free TO
    self-love?  
        Otherwise, I don't disagree with much of what has been written.
    Nor do I disagree with .4.  I will repeat, however, that that is
    only a part of the way there.  That, like so many other teachers,
    that may be the way to ring your chimes but maybe it takes a 
    different gong to ring mine.  Maybe for you forgiving of others
    is a catalyst towards forgiving yourself.  What I am saying is that
    eventually we must get to forgiving of ourself.
    
    Frederick
    

    
    
    re: .5
    
    I see that "self-love, self-condemnation, self-hatred" as a balance
    or trinity, more than a contradiction.
    
    eh?
    
    Cheryl

                                                             
    Cheryl,
    
    >and only those who have experienced this glorification can understand.
    
    This is a very powerful statement, and one which is at the core
    of a lot of guilt, I believe.
    
    For example, someone said to me once, "You must forgive - you must
    give up the anger....on and on and on.....".
    
    Well, yes, that is true.  And eventually that is what I did, so
    it is indeed the answer.  But the problem was that it was far too
    simplistic at the time, and I feel that to the person suffering
    the guilt, that this is the LAST thing you should say to such a
    person.  The VERY last thing.
    
    Just before that step, I believe that it is very important to create
    the space and give the permission for the person to be angry.  Let 
    them be angry - let them get as angry as hell and then they will get 
    to the point where they decide for themselves that 1. it's OK to be 
    angry and 2. that they aren't going to take it anymore.  THEN finally,
    when they are angry and get everything resolved inside of themselves,
    then they will be able to give up the underlying _toothache_ feelings
    and be able to forgive both themselves, and perhaps the others out
    of this forgiveness.  Love thy neighbor AS thyself.  It must first
    begin at home.
    
    So yes, Cheryl, ultimately what you present is the answer.  This
    is also what is written about in the great religions.  But there is 
    a great danger in skipping over the most important part, I believe.
    
    Cindy

    
    
    re: 7
    
    Ah, yes....we discussed "gospel statements" relative to previous
    notes.  One must go through the digestive process before the
    understandings are understood.  A personal experience, to say the
    least.
    
    >>This is a very powerful statement, and one which is at the core
    of a lot of guilt, I believe <<      
          ^^^^^^^^^^                                    
                    
    I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean by that - who's guilt are
    you referring to?
    
  
    Cheryl
    

    
    .7 followup
    
    >...core of a lot of guilt
    
    The person who truly understands, having been through it, is capable
    of making the person who is in the midst of their problem, feel
    guilty (or perhaps _unentitled to their bad feelings_ is a better
    way of putting it)...thereby putting the person in a worse position
    than they already were.
    
    This is where listening comes in as opposed to rushing in and giving
    the answer, because even though the answer is correct, ultimately,
    it isn't what is called for at the time.
    
    How'd I do?  Did this confuse things more?
    
    Cindy

    Cheryl-Frederick,
    	You both seem to be saying the same thing.  The crux of the
    problem is in each of your interpretations of "self-Love".  Perhaps,
    Cheryl, a better word might be "selfish-Love" which presupposes a
    self centered attitude."  I think "Self love" as Frederick means it is 
    "Accepting ones self" which is part and parcel to Love. 
    
    
    
    
    Words are a real impediment to communicatons.
    
    
    Ernie

    
    
    How's this analogy:
    
    Picture many unborn chicks each in their shell.  Each chick knows
    instinctively that they must do "something" to get out of this shell
    (to survive).  So, each chick begins it's pecking process.  Only
    the chick who has pecked thru, understands, and it is personal to
    him alone.  None of the other chicks will "know" this feeling of
    "glorification" until they themselves attain it.
                                                    
    how's that
    
    Cheryl

    
    follow-up--
    
    which BTW does not mean, by any way, shape or form, that the other
    chicks are better or worse or should feel guilty for not having
    yet completed their pecking process.....in time, they too will have
    finished, and they too will look at the other unpecked shells, and
    infinitum begins.............mirror to mirror.
                                                  
    

    
    Wonderful!  Yes, that's it.
         
    I love analogies.  That was a good one.
    
    Cindy

    RE: .7 Cindy
                                                             
    >>and only those who have experienced this glorification can understand.
    
    >This is a very powerful statement, and one which is at the core
    >of a lot of guilt, I believe.
    
    >For example, someone said to me once, "You must forgive - you must
    >give up the anger....on and on and on.....".
    
    >Well, yes, that is true.  And eventually that is what I did, so
    >it is indeed the answer.  But the problem was that it was far too
    >simplistic at the time, and I feel that to the person suffering
    >the guilt, that this is the LAST thing you should say to such a
    >person.  The VERY last thing.
     

     I understand what you are saying here, though I'm a bit unclear
     about "the person suffering the guilt" and the person caught up
     in their anger.  Were you feeling guilty at the time you were
     feeling angry?
    
     Also, I have different feelings about this.  Often I have been
     feeling a certain way about a particular situation and just want
     to have someone just get where I'm at about it.  This does not
     occur very often, but when it does it can be very supportive and
     useful.  However, this does not mean that a person giving me
     feedback in a different way, and one to which I react and resist,
     isn't just as helpful.  You may not have wanted to here what the
     person had to say, and it may have struck a nerve and brought up
     your resistance, but it may have been the impetus to moving your
     own inner process along, even if consciously you didn't like it.
     I have experienced this myself, so I know what it feels like -
     it's not comfortable but it can be just what we need.  This doesn't
     mean that it circumvents feeling what needs to be felt or expressing
     what needs to be expressed.  It's all part of the process of owning
     our own experience.
    
     Carole    
    

    
    re.3 (Frederick)
    
    I believe that I, too, mentioned something about accepting my own
    tendency toward anger, which is really the same as forgiving the
    self in my eyes.
    
    Guy
    

    Carole,
    
    It was the same person feeling guilty about having feelings of hidden
    anger (because they are being told that they have to forgive and
    not be angry, so the cycle continues).
    
    Much like a mother telling a child that the child must go make up and 
    apologize to the father even though it wasn't the childs fault (for
    whatever happened).  The child was angry, but felt guilty because 'he 
    was the father', and therefore the child shouldn't feel the anger 
    toward him, etc., etc., and so there was no place to go with the anger 
    and it was suppressed.  Then later in life, when the child attempts 
    to resolve the childhood repressed anger and make sense of it all, 
    the mother tells the child that the child must forgive and forget
    and put it in the past for good.  But it never really goes away
    and the guilt for having the angry feelings (and justly so) still
    continues.
         
    I'm having a strange day writing and trying to express what I'm
    thinking - please bear with me.  (;^)
    
    Cindy
            

    
    
    re:  16 - Cindy
    
    May I add my 2 personal cents?
    
    I know (hope, I know) what you are trying to say (which you are
    saying just fine).  I needed to recognize that I had "hatred" within.
    That I had allowed it to become poisonous to me and my mind.  Not
    knowing what or why I was feeling it, another friend guided me and
    I saw (my eyes were opened).  After justifying my feelings I went
    to the source and I totally blew up.  I let them know that I had
    been brought up to feel this way, that I never was allowed to be
    angry in their home....rules you know....among other 'stuff'.
    (Personal issues) - Bottom line...it was only AFTER I recognized
    the poop, let it out (the best way I knew how), accepted what was
    left, then I could forgive....and soon after, for the first time
    in my life, say to ME - that I loved myself.
    
    And I had read the passage (BTW - it comes from "The Intermediate
    Studies of the Human Aura) - shortly after my anger was expressed.
    I mildly mocked it and put it away.  Picked it up, reread it and
    did it ever hit home......
    
    I had hoped that it would also hit home with others here.
    
    Cheryl

    
    Cheryl,
    
    What do you mean - 2 cents?  It's your topic!  (;^)
    
    Yes - hatred...and rage too.
         
    It's good you know what I'm trying to say - I certainly don't! 
    (;^)
    
    Cindy (is_it_5_yet?)

    
    
    Reason is no substitute for anger.

    
    
    re: .19
    
    Reason?
    
    As in (??)  Reason~ing?
                Reason why?
                Reason for?
                
                What is the Reason?   
    
    Is this a verb or a noun?
    
    Sorry, but I have to ask, very intelligently, of course -  H U H?
                            
    
    Cheryl 8*)

    I've been dealing with the subject of anger for the past couple of
    years.  What I've discovered is that it is OK to be angry.  It is
    something that just 'is' -- like being thirsty.  Not good, not bad,
    just 'is'.  Anger can be beneficial if we take a look at why we're
    angry and use it as a tool to redirect that energy into healing.
    
    'Dance of Anger' is a great book in teaching how to do that.
    
    Ro
    

    
    
    Anger - I feel that experiencing anger IS beneficial as long as
    one does not continue being Angry over the same thing....what an
    enormous amount of energy.  After anger should be forgiveness. 
    Like continuing down the path and after kicking the rock out of
    the way that is gone, while another may come along...which then
    should be kicked out of the way and so on.
    
    Cheryl

    Hi Cheryl--Can I jump in?  
    
    Re .21  Knowing WHY we feel angry
    
    I'm just starting to read "A Course in Miracles" and it states that
    there is only LOVE.  The opposite of love is (not hate) FEAR! and
    that FORGIVENESS is the key to healing.
    
    So, now when I get angry, I try to see what it is that I'm afraid
    of--and it really helps.  You can even use it when you get angry
    when someone cuts you off.  I know I'm usually afraid that the other
    person is going to hit my car, cause an accident, make me late,
    etc.  With bigger issues, i.e my long-standing (unconscious until
    recently) anger with my mother, it was really a fear that she didn't
    love me as much as she did my sister, that I wasn't good enough,
    pretty enought, smart enough, etc.  
    
    I think that once you've identified the anger as fear, it is a lot
    easier to forgive yourself for those feelings.  It is also easier
    to forgive another person if you see that they, too are reacting
    out of fear.
    
    In my own case, I'm finding
    it leads to a greater sense of internal peace and calm.
    
    Janet
                    

    I'm glad to see that there is someone else who has come to understand
    that anger and hate are really fear (projected outward?).  Recognizing
    that fear is the base not only enables you to forgive, but also
    to deal directly with the fear to overcome it, change the situation
    to a less fearful one, or somehow else deal with it constructively.
    
    Mary

    re: .23, .24
    
         I hate to disagree, but I'm afraid I have to.  ;-)
    
         
    Frederick
    

I think that the opposite of love is indifference.  I see love, hate and fear 
as being attachments.  Based upon my experience, I form emotional attachments 
to neutral stimuli, or I form no attachments at all, thereby involving  none of 
the three emotions mentioned.

    
    .25 - Fred - You "hate" to disagree...cute
    
    .26 - Hi Meredith
    
    Indifference?  The only time I felt indifferent, as an emotion,
    was when I couldn't figure out what I wanted to do for the
    weekend....sort of a ho-hum attitude (for me..)  I can't see the
    relationship between love and indifference (as I've seen ?'s in
    other files on this same subject).  Possibly because both love/hate
    are more fulfilling emotions...vs...attitudes (?)
    
    .23 (Janet...were you 23??)
    
    Thank you for your reply.  I felt it!
    
    
    
    Cheryl

    
    I've seen it written in many places that depression is anger turned
    inward, and I agree with this.
    
    Cindy

    re: .27
    
       I agree with Meredith.  One reason why indifference (apathy)
    is harmful is because no energy is being expended.  We are beings
    of energy, and it important to experience that energy.  That energy
    may manifest as hate, rage, anger, fear, jealousy, hurt, guilt,
    depression, anxiety, etc., etc., but at least it is energy that
    is being "done".  Love is energy constantly flexing (among lots
    of other things.)  Apathy is its direct opposite.
    
    Frederick
    

Forgiveness is difficult.  Certainly there have been people
who have "done it to me" and I have found it nearly impossible to
forgive them though I have the knowledge that their deeds do
not represent the essence of who they are.  

My experiences of my parents, associates , and relationships
when taken from a large enough point of view have been learning
experiences.  The same experiences taken from the smallest point of view
still contain the energy of negative emotions.  Forgiveness means, to me,
giving up my attachment to those negative emotions from all points
of view and releasing both them and myself  from blame.

Resentment is like a hangman's noose at both ends of the rope.  I alone
have the power to cut that rope because I am both hanged and hangman.
It is a matter of admitting who is cause.

Once a pattern is set it repeats itself until I acknowledge it's
presence and the events which put it into acton.  Invaribly, I have found
blame and victimhood keep me acting out the pattern over and over.
Once I am willing to acknowledge myself as cause in the matter, the pattern
blows off.

Certainly those childhood traumas are the most difficult to resolve.
Again, I have found the pattern currently running in my life is a direct
result of a childhood decision.  Given the thousands of times my
patents negated my worth as a human being, the resolution of these
events appears nearly impossible.

What does forgiveness have to do with the Game?  Is not forgiveness
essentially a good move?  In a very practical sense I do not have the
power to forgive all the events in my life to date.  I do have the power
to include another's point of view right now in this current moment
of time.  By empowering another person, I gain power in life and the will
to act outside my pattern of programing.

Ok, so it is only one moment in time, one crack in the complex
pattern of fear and isolation arising from prior threatening events.
A good move which "forgives" another's point of view drains the
pattern of it's energy and returns the energy to the player.  The
pattern weakens and fear subsides.

A good move allows the opportunity for love.

L.

    Who should do the forgiving?  Is it the one who made the 'poor
    move' or the one who the 'move' was perpertrated on or both?
    
    Ro
    

    
    
    Remember the analogy I used with the chicks?
    
    I woke up this morning thinking -- (amazing huh?):
    
    This conversation seems to have brought me to a plateau of
    understanding and acceptance of my existence, but, big BUT, I somehow
    feel that as a newly-hatched chick, I look around and discover there's
    another shell I have to peck my way out of, still not knowing what's
    on the other side........it's only when I get to the other side
    that I will know why I began the pecking.  Shell within shell, mirror
    to mirror....OR like holding your new high school diploma only to
    realize you still have another 4 years of college.  And it never
    ends, does it?
    
    Cheryl

    Hi Cheryl,
    
    I like the analogy of the 'onion skin' (re your title).  It is
    the one I've used in connection with my personal growth.  Each
    time I peel away a layer and think I'm getting there, I 
    discover another layer to peel away to get to the 'real' me.
    And as with onions, with each layer we peel away, we cry
    a little...
    
    Ro
    
    

    re: .31 (Ro)
     
    I like to think in simple terms and sometimes the only way I can
    express anything that has the remote likeness to what I am trying
    to say is by using an analogy.  I'm glad that they are being understood.
                                                                            
                                                                            
    >>Who should do the forgiving?                                          
                                                                            
This, I believe, is a personal issue that only the "self" be aware of.      
                                                                            
I could forgive you for a deed you did, a hurt you knowingly or unknowingly 
caused and you may or may not feel the results of the forgiveness....., but 
_I_ would.  "I" would feel the release of the energy it took to be          
"negative" and then I could use this energy for a more positive issue.      
                                                                            
Only YOU will feel it when You experience it.                               
                                                                            
How can two people forgive for one hurt.  It is a personal, singular thing. 
Besides, I'm sure there are different levels of forgiveness, as there are   
different levels of knowledge, love, etc.
                          
/C                        
                          
    
    BTW - here's another example - You are trying to explain to your
    doctor (this is my favorite) that you have a particular pain in
    a particular area and your doctor replies "but that's not possible".
    You reply with "I'm the one that's feeling it, so who's right?"

    Cheryl (.34)
    
    "How can two people forgive for one hurt.  It is a personal,
    singular thing."
    
    I'm not so sure it is a singular thing.  If I hurt my 'brother'
    am I not in fact hurting myself.  I need to forgive myself for
    wrongly thinking he could make a 'move' that hurt me (because
    he can't hurt me, my soul, my essence - only my ego).  I would
    be perceiving his 'attacking' me out of my own fears.  I need
    to be forgiving towards him in order to recognize the "Christ
    consciousness" in him.
    
    He on the other hand, needs to forgive that he was making a
    'move' that was only in his own best interest and did not
    consider the consequences that move would have on the other
    person.  In otherwords, he wasn't playing the 'game' with
    integrity.
    
    This is all 'new' to me, I'm not sure if I've got it yet.
    
    Ro
    

    
    Ro (.35)
    
    I sense the puzzle pieces, but I'm not sure if there's a fit.
    
    Question:
    
    You ask, "if I hurt my 'brother' am I not in fact hurting myself".
                                                                     
    Answer:  Essentially, I believe you are creating karma or a pendulum
    swing has begun....
    
    
    Then you say, "I need to forgive myself for wrongly thinking he
    could make a 'move' that hurt me........"
    ^^^^^
    
    When did the "exchange" take place?  Has an "exchange" taken place,
    that I'm not aware of.  See, you say 'could' as an anticipated
    statement.
    
    I feel that you are not responsible for anyone but your_SELF,
    spiritually speaking.  And let me clear this - You must take CARE
    OF SELF, before you can even begin to think of taking care of another.
    You need to know how to swim before you try to save a drowning person,
    otherwise the both of you will go down.                   
                                          
                                          
    Cheryl                  

    Cheryl (.36)
    
    I know my emotions sometimes get in the way of my ability
    to make clear my point.
    
    I'm also working with "A Course in Miracles" (tough going
    sometimes).  As Janet pointed out in .23, there is only
    LOVE.  So if I can recognize the LOVE in myself and the
    LOVE in my brother/sister and know that when we 'hurt'
    each other, it is only a reaction to the FEAR we are both
    operating out of.
    
    You are correct, I should have said 'made' rather than
    'could make' (and would you believe I'm a writer!).
    
    True, about the 'drowning' personal analogy.  What I
    need to learn is how to throw a life preserver instead
    of 'diving' in myself.
    
    Thanks Cheryl...
    
    Ro