Conference hydra::dejavu

    Re .0 (Bj):
    
    >Did I cause it since I supposedly create my own reality?
    
    No.
    
    Sorry to hear of your loss.  My deepest sympathies.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    	You did not cause the death of your son anymore than I caused
    the death of the astronauts on the challenger shuttle because I
    dreamed of the accident a week before. Dreams are prophetic in nature.
    	We dream everything in our lives previous to the carrying out
    of those things. This is the essence of Dejavu. Within each of us,
    to some degree, with greater sensitivity in some than in others,
    is a time chamber. We are in the image of God and part of that is
    to know timelessness. Within us lies a point where time is
    non-existent. We are at times able to touch this timelessness and
    know of things yet future, from our time reference, which is the
    present. When we dream we receive the information via this timeless
    chamber. 
    	You were in no way responsible for your sons death. You simply,
    because of the sensitivity of the matter, your son, a part of your
    own body and soul, were able to touch the chamber and receive the
    information.
    	In the created man is another part of the image of God. That
    of creator. We may create with our hands in the physical, or with
    our mind, in the abstract, or with our spirit, an atmosphere or
    aura.
    	To a degree we create our own reality with these three things.
    But to deny other forces, to take upon ourselves the GodHeadShip
    and say we create all reality is arrogant pride and self exaltation.
    	The man who exalts himself shall be made low. The man who humbles
    himself shall be exalted. This is the reality one should seek to
    promote within themself. The meek shall inherit the earth. If a
    man shall seek to save his life he shall lose it.
    	If a man seek to lose his life, or his reality, his heart, who
    he is, than he shall find life eternal.
    

    re: .0
    
         I, too, can sense the deep loss you no doubt feel.  It is so
    difficult for us on this plane to accept the deaths of others that
    we love and care for.  I firmly believe that your son's spirit is
    still accessible by you in perhaps several forms, and that the loss
    may be ameliorated, even if only in the slightest way, by that 
    knowingness. I hope you can find the means to do so in such a way
    as to derive some peace from the interchange.
         As for creating your own reality, please don't use it as a
    means of placing blame, which from the emotion I sense you may be
    fearing...that someone will tell you it's your fault.  Creating your
    own reality is not about blame or righteousness or avoidance...it
    is about responsibility.  Responsibility does not equal blame. 
    You will not benefit in any form whatsoever from the guilt that
    self-blame will engender.  Your son was responsible for his own
    life as you are responsible for yours. I am certain that whatever
    relationship that you held with him that it had a tremendous impact
    on him and that he used that influence to grow and to learn and
    to discover whatever lessons he was here to uncover.  I feel fairly
    certain that most of us will never (as humans) discover what it
    is that others are here to experience (bottom-line, that is.)  So
    you may never know what it was your son was here "for", either.
    That you dreamed or sensed what you did did not make the events
    happen.  It was a reality that you allowed yourself to be an observer
    to or of, not a direct, conscious causality.  I sincerely further
    hope that you can (if you haven't already) find the courage to
    accept your loss as at *most* a co-creation, perhaps not a conscious
    one by either one of you.  Absolutely it is not one in which to
    fix blame (in these terms--of self-punishment, etc.)  You have
    obviously created the reality of awareness...self-love becomes far
    more important at this stage than self-punishment.  The concepts
    of reality creation do not change here, only our understanding of
    the concepts do.
    
    Frederick
     

         
    Dear Bj,
    
    I'm sorry to hear of your loss - death is always very difficult,
    especially when it is not expected.  
    
    As the others have said here, no, that is not how reality creation
    works - you were not responsible for his death.  
    
    I wish you and your family peace and strength during this most
    difficult time.
    
    Cindy

    Bj,
    
    	I agree with the others.  You did not cause this to happen.
    
        You have my deepest sympathies.  It's always hard to loose someone
    you love, especially someone so young, and especially your child.
    
                                     Much love and light,
    
                                                           Linda

    What made it easier was that he had attempted suicide 9 times
    before it worked .... so it wasn't unexpected.  On eash
    attempt I died a little.  That was 3 yrs ago but somehow I
    can't get that dream out of my mind.  I'm trying to withdraw
    from the self-blame.  It's terribly difficult.  I loved him
    so.  I find nights when I go to sleep I PRAY I dream about
    him and it seems when times get the toughest and I need him
    to talk with my kind subconscious mind calls him forward.
    
    The real scarey part was on the first anniversary date of
    his death (Aug. 13) my hubby and I had gone out dancing.
    Arriving home our cat always lead us up the driveway.  This
    night we had put her out before going and upon coming home
    she wasn't there to lead us.  When we got to the back door
    she was sitting in the kitchen.  I screamed that Michael
    had been there ..... I could feel it and smell him.  His
    back door key layed on the kitchen table .... his bed had
    been layed on and my husband's pistol was taken from the
    nightstand and the safety was off.
    
    Mike and we were the ONLY ones who knew where the gun had
    been kept.
    
    To this day we don't know where the key came from.  I believe
    with my heart that it was something unfinished for Mike and
    he brought back our key and layed on his bed to prove to me
    that it was him.  He's there too often now and I keep telling
    him I'm fine .... to rest now.  
    
    It terrifies me sometimes because after every attempt he'd say,
    "Mom, you're the only reason I'm still alive .... I just can't
    hurt you."
    
    I'm happy for him but not for me.  I wish I could create my
    reality that would let me forget my past and go on for my
    future.
    
    Can I?
    
    Bj
    

re: .6 (BJ)
    
    > Can I?

      Yes.
    
      Terry    

    re: .7 Terry -- How?
    
    Bj
    

    re: .8
    
         (Terry, I agree but can understand why you didn't want to
    fill in the blanks.)
    
          Yes, but like everything else many of us are learning here
    it has a difficult answer.  First off, we do not have to be products
    of our past as we are abundantly forced to believe.  I have tried
    to print out some notes in this conference giving support to the
    understanding that our future creates the present...it is not
    the past which creates our present.  To the extent that this is
    difficult to grasp is to the extent that we must be willing to 
    change our well-entrenched beliefs.  You know as well as I do that
    there are events in our "pasts" that we cannot remember, or remember
    well.  Similarly, there are events that we can remember with
    extreme accuracy.  What's the difference?  Could it be focus or
    could it be importance?  Could it be that there is a reward or
    a payoff for one position over another?  (The answer is yes.)
    So how is it held in place.  Well, everything is held in place
    by our sub-conscious mind.  It is the conscious mind which accesses
    the sub-conscious here.  So, if there is a belief held firmly in
    place by the sub-conscious are we doomed?  Well, it makes it much
    more difficult to work around it.  You have at least two choices.
    One, change the sub-conscious.  The other, change the conscious.
    Or maybe even do both.  In your case, there are many beliefs 
    operative in your sub-conscious connected with this event (as
    you have revealed by the guilt I suspected.)  You can get to
    the core of those beliefs (consciously or any of a variety
    of different way) and then CHANGE the BELIEFS.  The effect that
    this has is to change your experience of accessing your "memory" 
    banks.  And the information you retrieve will hence be different
    (and associative feelings will therefore be different.)
    I am leaving great big chunks of explanation out of all of this,
    I hope you understand.  How do you change these beliefs?  Again,
    there are a variety of ways (such as a steady dose of affirmations)
    but perhaps the most direct is by actually going into the 
    storehouse itself and replacing what's on the shelf...i.e., going
    into the sub-conscious and doing it there.  How do we go into the
    sub-conscious?  Well, we go into all the  time, but specifically
    for this purpose we can go into it meditationally.   Does it work?
    Unequivocally, yes (based on my own knowingness.)
         Another thing to do is to change the conscious mind.  Watch
    your thoughts, feelings.  Don't let your negative ego steer your
    conscious mind.  Understand (by a variety of ways) that it is
    the future which is creating the present...that the past is simply
    the backdrop against which we lay out the present.  That everything
    in every aspect can be changed.  That the hurt can dissolve into
    a distant past.  That the future can provide a happy and joyful
    reality.  And on and on and on.
          Yes, as Terry said, bj, it can be changed.  You have absolutely
    nothing to gain in believing otherwise.  You have a very great deal
    to gain to believe this and to make this work for you.
    
    Frederick
    
    

    I received this from a network friend, and wanted to share it with
    you, Bj.  
    
                                   "comes the dawn"

	after a while you learn the subtle difference
	between holding a hand and chaining a soul
	and you learn that love does not mean leaning
	and company does not mean security,
	and you begin to learn that kisses do not mean contracts
	and presents aren't promises,
	and you begin to accept defeats
	with your head up and your eyes open
	with the grace of a woman/man, not the grief of a child,
	and you learn to build all your roads on today
	because tomorrow's ground is to uncertain for plans.
	and futures have a way of falling down in mid flight
	   after a while you learn
	that even sunshine burns if you get to much.
	so you plant your own garden and decorate your soul,
	instead of waiting for someone to bring you flowers.
	and you learn that you really can endure....
	that you really are strong.
	and that you really do have worth.
	and you learn and learn.......

                                              anonymous
    

RE: .6 (BJ)

    > It terrifies me sometimes because after every attempt he'd say, "Mom,
    you're the only reason I'm still alive .... I just can't hurt you."  < 


I don't want to sound harsh, but if you were the only reason he kept on living,
why did he keep trying to kill himself?

This is a mind game.  "I'm staying alive only because of you!"  What a burden
for you to bear!

Your son is dead and you have your own life to live.  Whatever his reasons for
killing himself, they were HIS reasons, not yours.  The gift of life is ours to
keep or throw away.  He threw his away.  Keep and celebrate yours!

I sympathize with you; the death of a loved one is such a sad thing.  You will
never get over it, but you will get used to it.  Best wishes to you.

John M.
                                                                      

RE: .9

   BJ,

   I simply said yes because that is the answer.  EVERYTHING we do we do
   by choice, even if we would rather have done something else.  When
   making a choice, if even for a moment, what we chose seemed like the
   right thing to do at that time.  Holding on to your son's life is a choice, 
   your choice.  At a point in time, probably around the time of his death, 
   it was your decision (at some level) and at the time it seemed like the 
   right thing to do.  That was then, he's gone in a sense; this is now,
   you're still here.  Choose to let go.  Take the key you found (I feel
   you still have it), take it someplace, think some loving thoughts 
   about him and the journey he is on, wish him well - then toss it, 
   let it go, let him go.

   To use (do I really want to bring the Laz' into this) a phrase from
   Lasaris, "The steps of getting there [getting on with your life],
   are the qualities of being there...".

   I wish you well.  It's time to let go.

   Terry

    Bj:
    
    I don't know if this helps any, but my 20 year old daughter has
    tried suicide twice now.  The first time, I was devastated, and
    blamed myself, all the guilt, etc.  The second time a very wonderful
    friend had a talk to me.
    
    He said you cannot breath for her, if she chooses to try again,
    its her choice, not yours, she is the one deciding whether or not
    she wants to stay,  You can't watch her 24 hours for the
    rest of her life.  You *have* done the best job possible.
    
    I listened very carefully, and he was right.  I love my daughter
    very much, she does have problems she doesn't want to face up to,
    and I can't make her, nor cn I help her.  If she comes to me for
    help, I'm there, but I don't judge or offer opinions unless she
    asks.
    
    I t may be harsh advice, but it has got me through the past two
    years, and although she is hurting very much she hasn't tried again.
    
    The funny thing is my mother blames me for my daughters problems,
    but it doesn't worry me, I know that ain't the problem.  The wonderful
    thing is my younger daughter 18, denies that by saying she turned
    out okay.  
    
    This is awfully hard.  But when the police finally catch up with
    my daughter she will have to spend time in prison.  My only hope
    is she will receive the care she finally needs.  
    
    A lot of people who don't know me very well, cannot understand how
    I can be so calm and together with a daughter who is missing and
    has tried suicide.  Its because I don't feel guilty in any way.
     I miss her like hell, but that is all.  
    
    Believe me, it has taken a lot of work on my part to get to this
    stage.  
    
    I don't know if I have helped you at all, but I really do understand.
    
    ...dale
    

    His reason for suicide was that he was diagnosed an agoraphobic
    and just couldn't leave the house and do anything out with
    people.  Even when we planned for company his stomach would
    tie up in knots and he'd start sweating, his heart would
    pound and he'd get sick to his stomach.
    
    The last couple of years of his life he'd get half drunk and
    then in the Air Force started with Cocaine to numb himself
    to go out and meet people.
    
    That's why he didn't want to live.  The rest of his life would
    be the same and he didn't want that.  Don't get my wrong ...
    he's better off where he is.  I'm NOT saying he isn't.  I'm
    only saying IT HURTS.  So with each attempt he'd say, I don't
    want to hurt you, Mom, and you're the only reason I'm alive.
    At the end ..... my love wasn't enough cause he couldn't love
    himself.
    
    That's all.
    
    Bj
    

Bj

I am touched by your entry.

What follows is what works for me when dealing with stress in my life.  I 
have a rather mechanical approach both to self analysis and with managing my 
energy, maybe some of the ideas here will work for you. 


First two observations:

	You are not responsible for your sons death and  

	You have the power to "create [your] reality that would let [you] 
	forget [your] past and go on for [your] future" - 

	but 	
	 
I do not think that you should forget your past.  The bond that you have had 
with your son is one of the strongest that I am aware of at this level of 
being.  Trying to forget it would take a tremendous amount of energy (used
to create a block) and it would hide the important information that your
sons death has for you.  Denying your sons death or forgetting it, is not 
going to make it go away - you will find peace with this by opening up and 
facing it - however painful it is - and by accepting it.
                    
Part of the acceptance process is developing a new way of using your energy.
A good model should include an orderly use and linkage with and a balance of 
all energy - personal and universal.  

You *can* create the reality that this will all happen for you.  Facing some 
of the personal issues that you will have to deal with in the process is 
going to require effort - but in the process you will grow in understanding 
and strength.

This is your responsibility as a person.  It is difficult to face sometimes.
It is especially hard the first few times you try it (because of the fear of 
change), but often an event, like your sons death, will prove to be the 
catalyst that moves you to this awakening. 

There may be many barriers that you have created in yourself to protect you 
from some of the truths that you will have to face and some of the new 
responsibilities you will be accepting, so you will have to tear them down.

Approach it one step at a time.  Give yourself credit for asking the kinds 
of questions you are asking in this file, and for any other positive steps 
you are taking for yourself.

Always turn to some positive use of your energy like physical (you have the 
most control over this one) to reset and go on, especially when you are 
really down.

Understand that the process will probably not initially all be positive or
forward - but always come back and work at it.  Be the best you can be on 
a given day and in a given moment, and give yourself credit for this.
                                                                
Try to find some friends who can guide you through this and with whom you 
can share it, and be open for good (positive) advise.  There is collective 
power in groups like this and in personal interactions with others, but 
remember ultimately you are responsible.  

You can do it.    
            
John

    	bj,
    
    	   I think the others have done a pretty fair job of showing
    	you how acceptance of your son's demise is essential to your
    	getting beyond it and returning to focusing on your own life.
    	
    	   And yet, as you said, there is still PAIN.
    
    	   To you, the death and the pain may seem as one, but in fact
    	they are two quite separate things.  The death of your son was
    	an experience in your life... one of the circumstances through
    	which you have come.  The pain you still feel, on the other hand,
    	is something you are creating.  Only you know why you choose to
    	create this pain... perhaps you feel that you have no choice...
    	whatever the reason, the first step to getting beyond the pain
    	is acknowledging it and its source.  
    
    	   At present, it seems to me that you have chosen to BLAME
    	yourself for the death, as people often do when faced with
    	these unexpected tragedies.  In fact, the only part of the
    	incident that you are responsible for is your own perception
    	of it.  You are responsible for how it affects you.  You are
    	not to BLAME!  BLAME assumes an assignment of right or wrong.
    	You feel the way you do... there is no right or wrong about it,
    	it simply is.  You have created these feelings, and they are
    	with you now.  Accept that you created them, do not seek to
    	BLAME yourself for them.  Acknowledge that you are the source
    	of your feelings, and as their creator you are in control of
    	them.
    
    	   When you feel that you have suffered long enough and are
    	ready to leave the pain behind, all you need to do is decide
    	not to hurt any more.  When you are ready to move on you will.
    	Until then you will experience pain.
    
    	   Realize that there is life beyond pain.  Accept that you
    	need not beat yourself up for feeling the pain.  Accept that
    	you did not cause the tragedy.  Understand that your life is
    	also limited and choose to live it in a manner that suits you.
    	If you want to hold onto this pain for the rest of your life,
    	you will not be wrong to do so... it is completely up to you.
    
    	   I realize that this might sound like a lot of psychobabble
    	to one who feels 'out of control' right now, but I felt you 
    	needed to understand that you are in control of your life.
    	My heart goes out to you tonight.  I hope you can find your
    	path out of the Garden of Grief.
    
    	- Greg

    re: .10
    
    I have a copy of that, thanks.  Isn't the a lovely
    verse?
    
    Bj
    

    
    Bj,
    
    I came across a reference to a book on grief resolution, and it
    is called "After The Tears", by Jane Middleton-Moz and Lorie Dwinell.
         
    Quote from the book:  "One of the things we know about grief resolution
    is that grief is one of the only problems in the world that will
    heal itself with support"
    
    It was recommended in John Bradshaw's book on Shame.
    
    Cindy
                             

    re: .18
    
    Thanks, Cindy.
    
    Bj
    

          I briefly mentioned this to my girlfriend this weekend
    and she reminded me that a boyfriend of hers committed suicide
    and left her with lots of feelings to deal with (over ten years
    ago) that were extremely difficult to handle.  Similar to 
    the other situation(s) mentioned, he, too, put pressure on her
    because she was "all he lived for."  So, not only did she have
    guilt to deal with but also extreme anger at his manipulations
    (to say nothing of the physical abuse she endured from him 
    during the course of the relationship.)
          But, as she related to me, what she learned from the 
    situation is that the reality she created was not one in which
    she was responsible for the act (of suicide) but that it was
    the way she chose in this lifetime to generate emotions and
    how to deal with them.  In other words, she was able to 
    encounter (or confront) very severe emotions by creating her
    reality in the manner she did.  Clearly, HOW she dealt with
    the emotions is the "lesson" for her.  As the latest (at this time)
    note entered in this conference (I forget the number) indicates,
    we don't always consciously create the reality that we are
    actually creating.  One of the names of the game is to finally
    come to terms with understanding...and then doing something
    about it.  I was listening to the oldest Lazaris tapes I have
    yesterday (from ten years ago) and he mentioned something about
    7 levels of awareness.  The first is self-awareness, the second
    is emotional awareness, the third is intellectual awareness....
    the 4th and 5th and 6th I don't remember...the 7th is cosmic
    awareness.  So, as is clear to me from the nature of many of the
    responses and emotions behind them in regards to the understanding
    of creating our own reality, we're not real far along in our
    awarenesses.
    
    Frederick
    

BJ,

>    Did I cause it since I supposedly create my own reality?
I don't believe so.  I base this answer on your dream and that I believe
that the souls of those who have just passed away do not immediately
achieve 'the' higher destination.

I believe the first dream is the key to you coming to completion with this
tragedy.  Your sub-concious gives you many messages thru dreams.

I'm not aware of how much work you have done with dream interpretation, so
here are some tips:

	- First and foremost, know what you believe.  Everything that is
	   presented in dreams are based on your beliefs.

	- The images in the dream that stand-out because they are out of
	   place or don't 'fit' are our unconcious telling us 'look here'.

	- Notice actions or movements that are taking place.

	- All people in the dream are usually parts of yourself.  This
	   is not always the case; Mothers tend to have dreams about
	   their children.

I strongly suggest that you look at the dream one more time, using the tips
above, to do your own interpretation, without reading my interpretation.
It is best if you do this just before you go to bed.  After your interpretation
set an intention that you will repeat before you go to sleep.  Intend to
complete your issues with your son's death.  Ask for a dream that will help
you in healing over your son's death.  Something like: "What do I need
to do to resolve my issues around my son's death?"  And repeat this over
and over until you fall asleep.  If you get distracted and start thinking
about something else, that's just fine, clear your mind and repeat the
request.

Have paper and a pen/pencil next to your bed so that you can write down
the dream either during the night or in the morning.  Write the major items
first then fill in the details.

If you didn't get a dream, that's fine.  Consider reading my interpretation
or reviewing your own and requesting a dream again the next night.

Below I will give you my interpretation of your dream.  Understand, this is
only my interpretation.  Accept and/or discard as your feelings suggest.
Depending on where you are in your healing on this tragedy, you may not want
to read this interpretation at work.

I'd be very interested in what you decide to do and how you make out with it.  
If you have any questions, just give me a buzz 3-5257.

Let's see what interpretations others on the net might have.  I hope this helps
you and others who might be experiencing that same grief as yourself.

With unconditional love,
Dan

Onto my interpretation of the dream, ready:


>He was riding
>a 3-wheeler (little tricycle) and I was behind him pushing.  His
>legs were *much* too long for the trike so consequently he couldn't
>peddle fast.  He kept yelling not to push so fast since his legs
>were getting tired.
Keys here are: 3-wheeler, his legs, your pushing fast, his yelling

I interpret that you saw your son in two ways, a child of 3-5 years old
and as an adult.  The size of his legs is your unconcious emphasising to
you that he is an adult, not the child that he wishes to remain.  You are
pushing him, helping him down the path of life and growth but the speed
is too fast for him.  Although he yells he choses to stay on the trike,
he is not attempting to get off.  Basically, this part of the dream is
you trying to help him grow but he desires to remain seated in his childhood.

>Up ahead I could see this high wrought iron
>gate starting to come down (with spikes on the bottom) into the
>ground.  Hurridly I pushed but realized that we would not be able
>to get through the gate in time so I left him and ran forward to
>clear the gate before it dropped.  It closed!!  He sat on the
>tricycle, holding onto the rungs of the gate, screaming, "Mom,
>come back, I need you." [while I stood on the good side of the
>gate. - Added from my questions - Dan]
Keys here are: The Gate, leaving him, sitting on trike, places by the gate

You notice the gate coming down, which may pertain to his attempting to take
his life many times before he succeeded.  You knew his death was coming
and you hurridly tried to push him past it, tried to keep the gate from
closing, but couldn't.  He remains seated, in the place he felt most
comfortable, at the end of his path, his death.  You are on the other
side of the gate to continue on your path of life.  The gate for him is
the end of his life and the continuance of yours.

    Dan - it's ironic how your interpretation is close to my
    interpretation.  The problem I have is if he appears
    comfortable, at the end of his path, his death ... then
    why is he still screaming for me to help him?  Why not
    just release me?  
    
    You see ..... all of this time I thought his screaming
    meant that I was to *join* him.  You don't feel that,
    right?  That no matter where he is now I don't have to
    go to him?
    
    I will try your suggestion tonight.
    
    Thanks
    
    P.S.  Thanks to all of you for your words.  I have a
    couple more dreams to be interpreted .... but later
    

    re: .22
    
<        You see ..... all of this time I thought his screaming
<    meant that I was to *join* him.  You don't feel that,
<    right?  That no matter where he is now I don't have to
<    go to him?
 
    Please, please, do not join him.  He couldn't make it past a crucial
    point--you can and did.  
    
    Jill

    Just a couple more thoughts..
    
    You will get to meet with him again one day, and *at that time*
    maybe the two of you will be able to discuss what really went on
    and what each of you learned.
    
    But, please, your life is here.  Live and enjoy what you can.  I
    know it would be horrible.  I have a five-year-old son, and last
    Thursday, the school sent home a note stating that a man had been
    seen in the school parking lot loading ammunition into a gun.  That
    was about a week after the shooting in Stockton.  The note and the
    possibilities were terrifying--the thoughts about all those little
    kids.  But, even if something were to happen with my son (by his
    own hand or by someone else's), it's better for me to go on and
    make my life one worth living because when all is said and done,
    I really don't know if I'm ever coming back here.  I know my feelings
    about you really don't mean so much in the long run, and I don't
    think they should.  But I would miss you and feel that *just as
    with your son*, we have lost something too valuable ever to replace.
    
    Jill

RE: < Note 961.22 by USEM::JOHNSON >
>                              -< Interpretations >-
>
>    Dan - it's ironic how your interpretation is close to my
>    interpretation.  The problem I have is if he appears
>    comfortable, at the end of his path, his death ... then
>    why is he still screaming for me to help him?  Why not
>    just release me?  
I don't have an answer for this, and actually don't think I could.  I think
the answer is within yourself.  Only you can interpret this part.  I'll offer
a couple thoughts that came to mind, but remember go with what feels right to
you.

	- When the gate closed, this could be a change-over point.  Everything
		before the gate closing is the relationship between you and
		your son.  After the gate closed is the relationship you have
		with the young masculine within yourself.

	- Although I don't know personally, I would imagine that suicide is
		a very tormenting experience.  It is quite possible you felt
		his final emotion and that it came out in your dream as his
		screaming for you.
    
>    You see ..... all of this time I thought his screaming
>    meant that I was to *join* him.  You don't feel that,
>    right?  That no matter where he is now I don't have to
>    go to him?
I don't believe so.  I sincerely believe that there is something within
yourself screaming for attention.  Look into what it is a nourish it.

Dan

re; since I create my own reality, did I cause his death?

no.

Edwin (founder of a meditation which I practice along with other meditations 
learned in other places) told me that when we're ready for a person to not be 
our archetypal representation any more, either they change, they move away, or 
they die.  Whatever goes on with them once we don't need their representation 
any more in our reality is dependent upon what it is that they are bringing in 
to their reality.  If someone told me, "The only reason I'm alive is because of 
you" I'd be really mad.  I would feel abused.  I would feel as if that person 
was trying to make me responsible for his life.  I think we can't be that 
responsible for one another.  I think it was not meant to be that way at all.

    re: 26
    
    Am I not responsible for his life since I gave him birth?
    
    What do you mean?  I don't understand!
    
    Bj
    

    Re .27 (Bj):
    
    >Am I not responsible for his life since I gave him birth?
    
    "Responsible for life" can be taken to mean "an agent that helped
    bring about existence" or "having to take charge of a person's
    obligations," as it were.
    
    The poet Gilbran likened a parent to a bowman with a bow and arrow,
    and the child to the arrow.  The parent can aim the arrow; however,
    once it's loosed, the person can no longer be responsible for ensuring
    that the arrow hits the target.  Other influences (e.g., a sudden
    wind) might alter the outcome.
    
    A parent is responsible for bringing a child into the world.  A
    parent is obligated to support the child, rear it, and _try_ to
    instil in that child a value system.  But the child is an individual;
    as it grows away from the absolute dependency of babyhood, the child
    has to assume greater and greater shares of its own responsibility
    for its actions: thus, what behavior would be tolerated for a
    four-year-old wouldn't be tolerated for a fourteen-year-old.  
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

>    The poet Gilbran likened a parent to a bowman with a bow and arrow,
>    and the child to the arrow.  

In that same piece, he said that our children come *through* us, not *because 
of* us.

    I agree with you that they come THROUGH us so in that thought
    I am responsible for his life.  If not for me he'd never be!
    
    Do you feel that my body gave him his shell and if I hadn't
    been there, at that time, his soul would have taken on another
    shell from another pregnant woman?
    
    

>    I agree with you that they come THROUGH us so in that thought
>    I am responsible for his life.  If not for me he'd never be!

I tend to go with the Soul as existing and deciding to manifest on this plane, 
so yes to the below;
    
>    Do you feel that my body gave him his shell and if I hadn't
>    been there, at that time, his soul would have taken on another
>    shell from another pregnant woman?

and also to agree with all the stuff Steve said a couple of replies back.  I 
believe that the newborn is not "tabula rasa" but rather already has components 
of personality.  Another DEJAVU noter had once told myself and some others in a 
conversation that he was feeling that before he incarnated here/now, he 
recalled having made decisions about what was this life going to be.

    What is 'tabula rasa'?  You mean that my son had picked how
    his life would be here, this time?  So his fate would be
    suicide and that was set at his birth?
    
    Bj
    

    
    re: .32
      
         I agree with Steve and Meredith on this.  So, to answer
    your first question, yes.  Your last question, no.  As I have
    written before, the higher consciousness (higher self---"soul"
    according to some) chooses the time/place/etc.  Once here,
    the conscious self makes the decisions.  I do not believe
    in pre-destination...I believe in creating whatever destiny
    one wants.  Your son's fate was his own choosing...he certainly
    didn't get your "permission" to do as he did.  While his birth
    and life may have led him to do what he did, as in all predictors,
    there is always room for free-will choice to do otherwise.  He
    chose to not change the things he could have that would have 
    produced a different outcome.  Tabula rasa means clean slate, by
    the way.  I agree with Meredith to the extent that we all have
    access to everything, but that we "forget" in order to allow us
    the room for experience...otherwise we would just "be" and never
    "do."  And yes, your son chose you and his father to give him
    the physicality he chose to have.  You and his father similarly
    chose to be his parents (and don't tell me you don't remember because
    clearly it is not a decision "you" made...it was your higher self
    that did that one...whether or not you made a conscious decision.)
    So, again, his fate was not set, he decided to create or make his
    fate be what it turned out to have been.
    
    Frederick
    

I say "Yeah" to what Frederick said.

You've ALL given me food for thought in my future decisions.  Can I
    ask one more question?
    
    If we, and we alone, decide to create our fate be what it turns
    out to be ..... why would I choose to pick parents that would
    abandon me at 3 yrs and pick foster homes that starved/beated
    me and were guilty of molestation?
    
    Are you saying that was my way of testing myself for this life
    plane?  That way my natal decision?
    
    Bear with me .............. you Dejavuers talk way over my head
    but I've got to see why all these things happen and how, if any,
    I can change these negative things from happening ... if I can.
    
    Bj
    

    BTW -- are there any books that you folks think would help
    me ... so that I can stop tying up the network with all my
    questions?  I just find that I get so much from all the
    different comments.
    
    Thanks to all of you
    
    Bj
    

re: .36 (Bj)

Books?  Are there books?  More than you'd care to read.  I suggest you take
a trip to a local metaphysical/occult book store.  Try looking in the yellow
pages.  As far as your particular question goes, try reading about the idea
of karma and reincarnation.  Also, there are many books that can help one deal
with changing their 'reality'/perception of 'reality' or whatever you wish
to call it, most of which recommend meditation/visualization as one way of 
changing things.  You might try working with your dreams as well and there
are some good books there too.  I could list a bunch of titles, but I
suggest you visit a book store and maybe (like Shirly McClain) the 'right'
ones will fall into your hands...

Good luck.  There's a lot to learn out (er, I mean *in*) there...

Terry

    re: .36, Bj
    
    <BTW -- are there any books that you folks think would help
    <me ... 
    
    Yes, there are good books.  Note .37 has answered nicely.
    
    < so that I can stop tying up the network with all my
    < questions?  
    
    Please don't stop asking questions and contributing.  Is there any 
    better use of the network than people talking to people?
    
    <I just find that I get so much from all the different comments.
    
    Me, too.
    
    Jill

   re: .35, Bj,
    
    <If we, and we alone, decide to create our fate be what it turns
    <out to be ..... why would I choose to pick parents that would
    <abandon me at 3 yrs and pick foster homes that starved/beated
    <me and were guilty of molestation?
    
    That's hard to say.  There could be lots of reasons.  Perhaps to learn
    that you can take care of yourself.  Perhaps to learn forgiveness.
    Perhaps to learn that, as a person in your own right, you deserve to be
    treated better.  Perhaps to learn that despite all you endure, you have
    a spirit and soul that cannot be quenched.  Perhaps to discover your
    strengths. Or to determine when you are an adult that you can help
    prevent the same atrocities from happening to other children who don't
    deserve it either.  Perhaps to bond friendships with other folks who
    lived in similar circumstances and grow to trust people again through
    your friendships.
    
    Perhaps all of the above.
    
    I guess I don't think of events or circumstances so much as tests as
    learning experiences.  Few things last forever in this world; when the
    situation has passed, what did I gain or learn?  Did I learn to hide 
    and feel sorry for myself?  Or did I learn to do the same thing to my
    children?  Those are always possibilities.  Or did I learn instead that 
    I have a love for life and a spirit that knows I can handle anything 
    that comes my way?  Did I learn that those are horrible things that
    should never happen to anybody?
    
    Some of the things in my life have been incredibly painful--just as
    anybody else.  But I've learned far more from the most painful ones and
    I would not change any of them because they have brought me to where I
    am today.
    
    Jill
    
    

    Jill,
    
    My sentiments exactly.  I like your way of reasoning.  I find
    too that once I've stepped just a little bit away from a
    painful situation, I can begin to examine 'the lesson and what
    I learned from it'.  I find sometimes that I may make the same
    mistake again, but not in such a big way or that I catch myself
    and don't have to 'relearn' the same lesson.
    
    Thanks for stating it as you did,
    
    Ro
    

    Nice answers, .38 and .39 (Kasper the friendly and Jill the pill).
    Seriously, Bj, the truth is that you now have been stimulated to
    find answers to questions that may never have occurred to you
    otherwise.  Think about it.  (I consider divorcing my ex-wife
    12 years ago to have done the same thing for me...i.e., made me
    look to discover "what went wrong").
         If I may throw a small wrench into this though, I would like
    to relate one of the one-on-one sessions (with Lazaris) that occurred
    at the Oct. Intensive.  This session was with a woman of about 35-45
    years of age.  I do not know (it wasn't mentioned) whatever the woman's
    childhood had been, but apparently it was quite horrendous.  The
    women initiated her question by saying that meditationally she had
    already created for herself a new set of parents (she may have
    mentioned Donna Reed in this  :-)  ) and was doing
    I-don't-remember-what-else and yet she was still having some sort
    of difficulty (I also don't remember what and my notes aren't with
    me).  Anyway, to get to the point of what I'm getting at, Lazaris
    told us (and her) that once in a very great while, we (from the
    standpoint of our higher self about to become physical) occasionally
    make a mistake.  He said it doesn't happen most of the time, but
    that it can and does happen.  In her case, he said, she wanted 
    physicality so badly that she took the first "train" she saw,
    without checking to see where it was going.  He said it was clearly
    a mistake.  He went on to tell her that she needed to absolutely
    clear out the childhood she had experienced and to continue in
    the process of forgiving herself.  (He probably said a lot more
    than this but I just don't remember it all.)  Sometimes, he has
    told us, we notice the mistake at birth or around birth and "bail
    out" (by miscarrying, by SIDS [sudden infant death syndrome], etc.,
    etc.)  Sometimes "we" decide that we aren't quite ready or were
    only coming to experience taking a first gasp of air, etc.  So,
    the thing I'm trying to get across here is that there is such a
    thing as a mistake.  Sometimes it's planned and a few times it's
    planned to not be planned.
    
    Frederick
    

Frederick, I'd only recently begun to think of it as a possible mistake (Bj, my 
home was abusive, too).  It's nice to hear it from someone else though; kind of 
like an affirmation that yes, it is possible that it could have been a mistake.

I hate and resist (YUCK!!) the shadows that are left from it sometimes.  When I 
realize that a negative aspect of my mother has come out in me, it's enough to 
bring me to my knees.  Perhaps it's something that I need to keep my self-
importance down.

If it wasn't a mistake, then why would I (or anyone!) have chosen *THAT*!!!

The one reason that keeps repeating itself when I think about that is, "because 
then when you decided to let out who you really are, you would rejoice in it 
and be firm in it, and would know it to be truly special rather than taking it 
for granted."

    Can you fathom why, *sometimes* I feel that I don't belong on
    this plane?
    
    It's apparent that almost everyone that I touched, as a child
    or an adult, leaves me.  From parents, foster-parents, a son,
    a husband, a grandchild.  How many more do I have to fate to
    loose before I'm through with my test?  Maybe it should dawn
    on me that nobody wants to relate to me .... but WHY would I
    choose this ..... I SURELY made a mistake.  If I made this
    mistake end maybe I could give more thought before the next
    time as to who and what I chose to be.
    
    If all of you had to choose .... what one book would you
    start out with first?  I rather like it here but if I cannot
    change my present, since that is governed by the future, I
    would like perchance to re-do it over.  My husband feels you
    don't get another chance.  I do ..... but then again I lead
    with my heart not my mind, like he.
    
    Oh God, if only you all knew just how much I'm starving for
    words of wisdom.
    
    Thank you
    
    Bj
    

    Hi Bj,
    
    You and I met a few years ago in Field Service, perhaps you
    remember.  It was just before you lost your son.  I remember
    that we talked about your fears of losing him at that time.
    I wish I had some comforting words to give you.  Loss is a
    necessary part of life and we all must face the fact that
    there will be times when we are each completely alone.
    However, I do believe the ones we love are never really
    apart from us.  At some level of consciousness, we still
    communicate with them.
    
    Someone suggested that you go to a new age/occult bookstore.
    I know it works for me.  A book that I 'need' to read will
    somehow end up in my hands.
    
    Don't give up, things do and will get better for you...
    
    Take care,
    
    Ro
    

    re: .43
      
         I don't have time to comment on your first paragraph (which
    could "use" it) but I just want to say "wait a minute" about your
    statement on changing the present.  Just because the future dictates
    the present doesn't mean you can't change the present.  That just
    sounds like another opportunity for martyrhood to me.  The reason
    the future AND the present can change is because you are constantly
    selecting it.  If you choose to select a different future, you can
    also change your present.  "YOU ARE WHAT YOU ARE BECOMING".  If
    you don't like what you are, change what you are becoming.  You
    cannot change IN the future.  Change can only occur now.  
        Yes, you can definitely change.  That your future is making
    it happen makes it no less so.
    
    
    Frederick
    

    re: 44
    
    Yes, Ro ---- I remember you.  Thanks for your words!
    
    Bj
    

    re:  .41
    
    Fred,  < Jill the pill >   ????  Really???   :-) :-) Sugar-coated,
    at the least.  :-)
    
    < Sometimes "we" decide that we aren't quite ready or were only coming
    < to experience taking a first gasp of air, etc.
    
    An almost identical thought appeared in one of Seth's books.  I love
    how some ideas keep coming around.
    
    
    re: .43, 
    
    Bj,
    
    Which one book would I have along?  Boy, that's a tough one; there
    are so many good ones out there.  But I've played this game with myself
    before: I'm on a deserted island and I can only bring along a few
    things.  I would pick _The Nature of Personal Reality_ by Jane Roberts 
    (as told through her by Seth) and _A Course in Miracles_ which I have 
    yet to finish.
    
    Each of them has given me so much to think about and has raised so many
    wonderful possibilities that I love to play "Imagine ..." with the
    ideas they present.  And the ones I really like, I remember and remind
    myself that *those* are the feelings I am striving for.  
    
    For example, some days I think "Imagine how I would feel if I did not
    have any fears.  How would I act?  What would I do with my day?  How
    would I interact with other people?  Would my interactions be
    different?  How so?  What plans would I make if I had no fear?"
    
    And before long, I see that I have possibilities I never knew I had
    because they were cloaked under some unrealistic fear I had been
    harboring.
    
    Just think what we could do!!  And a little at a time, the fear goes
    away.
    
    Perhaps the best part is that these books don't give me answers.  They
    help me think of new questions.
    
    Jill
    

_Feeling Good; The New Mood Therapy_ and I can't remember the author's name.

Why?  Because it takes a cognitive therapy approach to dealing with how it is 
you deal with yourself.  It seriously helps you listen to how you talk to 
yourself, look at how you deal with yourself;  changes in that make all the 
difference in the world.  There are exercises to do that will require effort.
The effort reaps benefits!

Thinking good thoughts for you!
Meredith

    Bj,
    
    You'll find all the answers coming now that you are asking! :-)
    
    It *is* very hard to recommend any books, but the ones I would drag
    anywhere (apart from any of Stuart Wilde's books) is Shakta Gawain
    "Living in the Light", and (I think the title is) "You Can Heal
    Your Life" by Louise Hay.  Both of these are gentle introductions
    into the wheres and whys.  You also have to remember that what's
    right for me, or Frederick, or any of the others may not be what's
    right for you.  Go into a metaphysical shop with the feeling that
    you really are going to find the right book for you to answer your
    questions now!
    
    Was it only three years ago that I was asking the same questions
    and had the same feelings as you?  Now, every move I make, or every
    decision I make is for a reason, and to take me one more step. 
    And, yes, if something goes wrong I am able to look at it and see
    why, and change it.  No more depression, lots of tears, but mostly
    of joy, and an absolutely wonderful feeling of anticipation of what's
    behind the door.
    
    I hope that makes sense.
    
    Good hunting
    
    ..dale
    

    
    I believe that what I chose to do,was,to be on this plane,with whatever
    circumstances arrived.I didnt choose to be in any particular
    place,time, or situation,I just chose to be here.I believe that
    I am not far from those whom I have loved in this life.I feel a
    warmth and a joy when I think of them,because I believe they are
    not far,and,I will meet them again.If I draw near to them in my
    heart,they will be near to me.Its only that they have gone on a
    journey,and,I will meet up with them later.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    
    I continue to believe that is downright cruel and heartless to continue
    to blame an individual for unfortunate events in their life over
    which they have no control. You are deluding yourselves if you think
    you can create a reality that does not exist. The best you can do
    is to accept the past for what it is, and go on and build the future
    from that.                                
                                             
    As I have said before, and will probably say again, this is where I
    disagree most strongly with the YCYOR group. There are unfortunate
    things that happen to us in life that are of our own making, but it is
    nonsense to say that someone has always chosen, or is always
    responsible for parents who beat them, strangers who raped them,
    loved ones who died, or all of their physical ailments.
                                           
    Rather than read Lazaris for an explanation, I suggest you read
    something like Schuller's (I may have the name wrong) "Why Bad Things
    Happen to Good People." Or read a text book on reality therapy. Or read
    the Book of Job. Each of these stresses that we are not always (repeat:
    always) responsible for misfortunes, but we should accept what has
    happened to us, build on it, and go on from there.
    
    Bruce                                    

Bruce; I see a difference between "responsible" and "to blame". Actually, it's 
more like  a  large gulf.

                            
    Bruce,
    
    Are you planning on stepping off your anti-YCYOR soapbox in the 
    near future?  I'm not really expecting an answer to this question,
    so consider it rhetorical.
    
    It takes far less energy to be 'for' something (such as your own
    pet theory of AYOR) as opposed to being 'against' YCYOR.  It is
    unfortunate that you choose to prove the validity your theory by 
    attacking someone elses.  It really doesn't have to be that way. 
    We can all peacefully coexist in the same conference, despite our
    differences.      
    
    Cindy

    Bruce,
    
    I agree with Cindy .53 and also reread this entire note to find
    where someone had been 'cruel and heartless'.  I found just the
    opposite.  I could only see people reaching out with love and
    compassion to BJ, offering her comfort and hope.
    
    Ro