Conference hydra::dejavu

    Gurdjieff is a fascinating bloke, but his books are rather hard
    to read. P.D. Ouspensky was one of his chief followers and his books
    are a little easier. "In Search of the Miraculous" is one.
    
    My recommendation is to read "The Master Game" by Robert De Ropp
    (see also all the juicy stuff in note 932) who *was* a self acknowledged
    follower of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky but diverged in his own way.

    In footnote 19 in "The Master Game" De Ropp states
    
    	The studies of Rafael Lefort in "The Teachers of Gurdjieff"
	suggest that the special methods taught by Gurdjieff were relevant
    	only for a certain time and are no longer valid at the moment.
    	The reader must decide for him/herself to what extent the criticism
        is valid.
    
    Read Lefort's book too. Footnote 19 must be the most helpful and
    memorable footnote I have ever encountered.
    
    When you have read a little, stop reading and play the Game.
    
    Now, enough words and out on the bike.
    
    Happy hunting, Gloria.
    
    Dave

    
    
    My seven cents...
    
    
    Following is a list of books which might help you in your search...
    
    
    _From G.I. Gurdjieff all and everything series:
    
    	Meetings with remarkable men - in this book G. tlaks about those
    			men that had influence his life. This is his
    			easiest book to read; the following ones are
    			more difficult...
    
    	Beelzebub's Tales to his Grandson - these are a three volume
    			book set. In this volumes, G. uses the character
    			of Beelzebub to expose the core of his teaching.
    			They are, however, extremly difficult to interpret
    			because G. used codes, metafors, as hidding
    			the exposed teachings from those who could't
    			commit themselves to _work_.
    
    	Life is Real Only Then, When I am...- here G. explains in a
    			more lucid way the meaning of his teachings.
    			This book however, was unfinished.
    
    
    			**********************
    
    
    From Peter Diaminovitch Outspesky (one of his best students)
    
    	The Fourth Way - A compendium of G. talks and answers to questions
    			about his method (which he called "The Fourth
    			Way"). This book is organized by topics, and
    			is very good reading for understanding G. system.
    
    	In Search of the Miraculous - Outspensky writes in this book
    			about his experiences with G. This book will
    			help the reader understand G. methodology of
    			teaching.
    
    	The Psychology of Man Posible Evolution - These are a series
    			of lectures that Outspensky gave. An excellent
    			introductory book to the general theory of G.
    			philosophy.
                                                                  
    	A New Model of the Universe - in this book Outspensky writes
    			about the different systems for self development
    			known in the east.
    	
    
    From John G. Bennett:
    
    	Gurdjieff: Making a New World - In this book you will find a
    			lot of history about G. possible sources of
    			information, also many aspects of G. ideas are
    			further explored.
    
    	Talks on Beelzebub's Tales - A must for those interested in
    			reading the books writen by G. Here Bennett
    			offers clues and explanations on the Beelzebubs
    			Tales series.
    
    	
    From Maurice Nicoll:
    
    	Psychological Commentaries on G. teachings - Vol I thru V. A
    			gigantic work on the part of Nicoll in where
    			extrapolates G. ideas with those of modern 
    			psychology.
    
    	The New Man - 	Portions of the new testament as applied to
    			man interpreted to the light of G. ideas.
    
    
    From Colin Wilson:
    
    	Gurdjieff: The War Against Sleep - A biographical account of
    			G. One of the best and more objective of the
    			ones I have read.
    
    From Webb:
    
    	The Harmonious Circle: The lives and Works of G.I. Gudjieff,
    	P.D. Outspensky and their followers - another biographical
    			account, but expanded to cover those aspects
    			from the work relevant to the continum of G.
    			system.
    
    From Tart:
    
    	Waking Up - 	G. ideas and methods and present day psychological
    			methods. A very good book in where G. ideas
    			are presented in a more contemporary format
    			without loosing its original meaning or purpose.
    
    
    From Perry:
    
    	Gurdjieff in the Light of the Tradition - another biographical
    			account but oriented toward G. system and that
    			of several apparently paralell traditions.
                                          
    
    				**********
    
    
    G. work is also mentioned in other books such as "Unsolved Mysteries"
    from Colin Wilson and is quoted/mentioned a lot in several writings
    of Bagwaan Shree Rajneesh.
    
    There is a movie titled "Meetings with Remarkable Men" base on the
    book with the same title written by G. It is a good movie in the
    sense that it will provide the viewer with a general idea of the
    conditions G. had to endure in order to acquire the knowledge he
    had. It also has some *excellent* footage on G. dances and sacred
    movements.
    
    Some of the above mentioned books could be obtained from any
    local bookstore; however, the following company has most of them:
    
    			Claymont Communications
    			P.O. Box 112
    			Charles Town,  WV  25414
                        phone:(304) 725-1523
                        
    
    They also sell music (based on G. scores) and audio tapes of John
    G. Bennett lectures. (note: I have no comercial interest in the
    above mentioned company; I just posted their address due to the
    availability of the above material and noters' posible interest
    in knowing were to acquire such).
    
    George Ivanovitch Gurdjieff was a giant, whose merits are finally
    being recognized. But most important; his system and ideas are well
    and alive, available to those who seek...
    
    
    							Paz Profunda
    
    								JSR:.
    

    
    Addendum...
    
    Any reader interested in G. work should be carefull with the book
    written by LeFort, titled "Teachers of Gurdjieff". According to
    my sources (and more or less confirmend by my own research) it is
    not genuine; that is, what it says' is not true. It do intermixes
    some factual data (particulary that regarding descriptions of regions
    and towns) with a lot of phisically-highly-improbable events which
    happened, supposely to the author...
    
    
    							JSR:.
    

Several major cities have a Gurdjieff/Ouspensky Society.  All of the books
I have purchased in Atlanta have a book mark listing all of the 
different telephone numbers (country wide).  If you are interested, 
let me know and I'll look for them.  I've read a number of Ouspensky's
books and find them fascinating.  He even wrote a great fictional novel,
_The Strange Life of Ivan Osokin_, excerpts of which were in a recent
edition of "Parabola" magazine.

Terry

For those interested, here are the phone numbers of the Gurdjieff/Ouspeksky
Centers:

    Atlanta          404-233-4424
    Washington D.C.  301-972-7297
    New Orleans      504-831-2935
    Chicago          312-328-3272
    Los Angelas      213-454-0798
    San Francisco    415-752-8293
    New York         212-737-5080
    Paris            (6) 436 61 69
    London           (7072) 73002
   
Terry

    
    
    You might want to check out some of the writings of E.J. Gold
    since he is considered a contemporary of Gurdieff.  He has 
    written several books and made a few video tapes.  Also there
    are classes led by some of the people which he has
    authorized to teach his Work.  Good Luck!
    
    L.

	As an introduction to this remarkable man and his teachings,
	I would recommend the book "The Gurdjieff Work" by Kathleen
	Riordan Speeth.
	"Life in the labyrinth" by E.J.Gold is also worth mentioning,
	as an introduction to ideas which are close up to Gurdjieff's
	own system.

	"Man is asleep,must he die before he wakes?"
					     -	Saying of Mohammed

Svein Nordrum

	I used to live in Keene NH, perhaps that isn't close to
you. Anyhow, there is a health food store there, run by a community
of Gurdjieff followers. The store is on the traffic circle in town.
	The community is called the Circle of Angels, in brattleborough,
VT. Thier farm may be called Walden Farm. The complete title is probably
something like 'The Circle of Angels at Walden Farm'. The store is the
best bet, or a phone book, or a listing in the afterwords of a related
article or book.
					Lewis

    hy,
    
    my note 165.31 of today is on higher awareness. This was also the
    state of Gurdjeff. maybe you are interested. Hope one day to write
    specifically on this.
    
    johan
    

    

    
    RE: .10
    
    Makes sense to me. The bad guys always keep an eye on the sheriff
    in the movies. Sort of like some crime lord keeping an eye on Clint
    Eastwood in a Dirty Harry type flick.
    
    ;-)

re ;-10

	Yes,Gurdjieff and Crowley did actually meet once in the period
	1925-26(not hundred years ago,G. and C. were born in 1878 and 1875).
	C.S.Nott tells about the event in his book 'Teachings of Gurdjieff,A
	Pupil's Journal';

	One day in Paris I met an acquaintance from New York who spoke about
	the possibilities of publishing modern literature.As I showed some
	interest,he offered to introduce me to a friend of his who was thinking
	of going into publishing,and we arranged to meet the following day at
	the Select in Montparnasse.His friend arrived;it was Aleister Crowley.
	Drinks were ordered,for which of course I paid,and we began to talk.
	Crowley had magnetism,and the kind of charm which many charlatans have;
	he also had a kind of dead weight that was somewhat impressive.His
	attitude was fatherly and benign,and a few years earlier I might have
	fallen for it.Now I saw and sensed that I could have nothing to do
	with him.He talked in general terms about publishing,and then drifted
	into his black-magic jargon.'To make a success of anything.' he said,
	'including publishing,you must have a certain combination.Here you must
	have the Master,here the Bear,there the Dragon - a triangle which will
	bring results...'and so on and so on.When he fell silent I said 'Yes,
	but one must have money.Am I right in supposing that you have the 
	necessary money capital?' 'I?' he asked,'No not a franc.' 'Neither have
	I,' I said.
	Knowing that I was at the Prieur� he asked me if I would get him an 
	invitation there.But I did not wish to be responsible for introducing
	such a man.However,to my surprise,he appeared there a few days later
	and was given tea in the salon.The children were there and he said to
	one of the boys something about his son whom he was teaching to be a
	devil.Gurdjieff got up and spoke to the boy,who thereupon took no
	further notice of Crowley.There were some talk between Crowley and
	Gurdjieff,who kept a sharp watch on him all the time.
	I got a strong impression of two magicians,the white and the black -
	the one strong,powerful,full of light;the other also powerful but
	heavy,dull,and ignorant.Though 'black' is too strong a word for
	Crowley;he never understood the meaning of real black magic,yet
	hundreds of people came under his 'spell'.He was clever.But,as
	Gurdjieff says:'He is stupid who is clever'.
	Orage said about this:'Alas,poor Crowley,I knew him well.We used to
	meet at the Society for Psychical Research when I was acting secretary.
	Once,when we were talking,he asked:"By the way,what number are you?"
	Not knowing in the least what he meant,I said on the spur of the moment,
	"Twelve"."Good god,are you really?" he replied,"I'm only seven".'

    I may be showing my ignorance, but..I just purchased my first Tarot
    deck - Thoth - originating from Aleister Crowley - should I be nervous?
    
    I realize there is a topic on Tarot - but the discussion on Gurdjieff
    and Crowley made me wonder about my choice of decks.  Am I worrying
    needlessly?
    
    tj
    

    re: -.1
    
         No.  
    
         Many people use the deck.  They weren't painted by him, though
    much of the symbolism was his.  My girlfriend loves his deck and
    uses it exclusively now.  She could care less about him or his views
    or intrepretations.  As an analogy, Stradavarius built violins 
    acknowledged as the best in the world, yet was hardly a master
    violinist.  The Crowley deck is a tool, and every tool performs
    differently for every being using it.
    
    Frederick
    

    
    RE: .13 Nahh.. you dont have to be nervous.. Crowley is dead. If
    you enjoy the pictures, thats great!
    
    You have to be a rather different type of person to really enjoy
    Crowleys work. I see an abundance of humor, satire and honest
    truth about humanity in his writing... (and a good bit of myself
    from time to time). Other folks look at it and shudder in horror
    at it or cant understand what I think needs no explanation. It all
    seems rather natural to me.
    
    On the other hand. Mr. G.'s stuff seems rather unnatural...or limited
    in total nature.... maybe I am too morally corrupt ;-), or perhaps
    we as human beings have natures that attract to different things.
    
    Perhaps if we all found one thing to hold truth... we wouldn't accept
    it.
    
    ;-)