Conference hydra::dejavu

    Re .0 (Bill):
    
          > .............. and everything that passes by my burning
          >forked tongue goes through this connector.  My wife said she
          >was smiling while she said this. (glad I wasn't there!).  My
          >wife says - "you mean the fork is burning your tongue?" I
          >guess not really believing what she was hearing.  Her aunt
          >starts twisting her arm and says, "You heard what I said,
          >my *forked* tongue."  "My snake tongue!" and then proceeds
          >to stick her tongue out and roll it around.
           
    This is hard to evaluate because we have no way of knowing the
    behavior or (for that matter, demonological) knowledge before her
    operation.  It is unusual, though; however, this might well be hysteria
    as much as something representing possession or obsession.
    
          >Her aunt also has told some of the family to take away      
          >this christian book she was reading and "throw the goddamn
          >thing far away."  Now up until just recently, this was your
          >typical old woman, somewhat religious, but not fanatical.
          >This stuff is really uncharacteristic from all I've seen of
          >her.
           
    The point is "uncharacteristic"; this isn't the same as
    "unknowledgable."  Also, what sort of a "Christian book?"  If not
    the Bible, it might be that she was sufficiently upset that something
    that came on too sweetly might have bothered her [personal note:
    once, when I was in high school and feeling _very_ blue, an ad for
    Peter Paul's candy, where a cartoon character gushed "-Indescribably_
    delicious!" brought me to the verge of doing mayhem to the television
    set.  So that it was Christian oriented might or might not have
    relevance].  Often, in possessions, there is a decided voicve shift;
    was anything like that present?
    
    In short, it might have been demonic, but there are still plenty
    of other posdsibilities left pen.
    
    I wish your wife's aunt the best, however, for a speedy and complete
    recovery.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Re: 0
    
    Bill, I worked as an Activities Director in a nursing home and
    experienced some pretty weird happenings displayed by it's occupants.
    There were several lovely ladies there who would go on tangents,
    if you will, all of a sudden.
    
    One, in particular, I was told, was a wonderful, friendly, sweet
    woman before "something" happened.  Please consider _dementia_.
    It is a deterioration of the mental faculties along with emotional
    disturbance resulting from organic brain disorder (thank goodness
    for my dictionary).  We'll call her Mary.  Mary was blind and would
    sit 'posied' in her chair, very quiet....snoozing....when she would
    wake up screaming obscenities at anyone near her.  There were others
    with similar disorders.  Our aged bodies only need something to
    "click"...whether from an adverse medication combination or a mental
    condition, such as Alzymer's (SP??).
  
    It was just explained to me that when these things happen, that
    the patient's attitudes reverse.
    
    Be supportive and understanding and do not take it to heart.  The
    poor woman has suffered a medical shock and may "click" back.
    
    God Bless
    Cheryl

    I hope that this incidenct was reported to your wife's aunt's
    medical care providers (doctor or nurse).  This kind of behavior
    is frequently associated with brain impairment.  In simplistic
    terms, one or more parts of her brain/mind would then be
    non-functional.  The rest tries to make sense of the world without
    that key component and the results can be quite bizarre.
    
    I have no medical training but I can think of three possible causes,
    all of which should be reported to medically qualified health
    providers:
    
    	1) This is really several hundred reasons -- any of the multitude
           of general causes of dementia, under the presumption that
    	   she would have developed it anyway but the stress of surgery
    	   and whatever illness prompted it brought it about a bit
           sooner.
    
    	2) A reaction to her medication.  Older people are much harder
           to dose than younger people.  Their kidney and liver functions
           are frequently grossly or subtley impaired and they metabolize
    	   drugs slowly or in odd ways.  On the average they need a
    	   lot more monitoring, and this kind of odd behavior should
    	   be reported so that adjustments of the does or kinds of
    	   medication can be made.  Specific time and date would be
    	   helpful.
    
    	3) One of the problems with surgery in any part of the body
    	   is that clots can form in the area where surgery is done
    	   and later break loose.  They can then travel through the
    	   circulation system until they lodge in the heart, lungs
    	   or, as might be the case here, brain.  This is more likely
    	   to take place in older patients because of the natural
    	   hardening and narrowing of the blood vessals that accompany
    	   aging.  In other words, they may suffer a stroke.
    
    Do *not* assume that the hospital knows about her erratic behavior.
    They do not know her normal behavior, the nurses are always grossly
    overworked and do not have much time to simply talk with the patients,
    and the problem may be intermittant.  Tell her doctor, or ask her
    nurse to.
    
    					Topher

    
         Thanks for the replys.  Just a few comments on the previous...
         Her doctor 'has' been informed of the erratic behavior.  He
         really doesn't know what to make of it I guess.  He said she
         may or may not 'snap out of it'.  The surgery she had was 
         related to pneumonia (sp) she contracted a couple weeks ago.
         I also know that she has had some circulatory problems, but
         I am not sure exactly what kind of surgery took place.  I
         believe it was involving her lungs, yet not sure.  In regards
         to the "christian book" - I am not sure what it purtained to.
         It was not, however, the bible.   Pertaining to her voice,
         I do not believe there was any real noticeable voice 'change'.
         Everything that was said was in her normal voice tone.  Well,
         if any other peculiar behavior happens, I will let you know.
                    
                                          thanks again.
                                                      
                                             Bill P.
                                                    

    I've had several years experience in big city hospitals, military
    and VA hospitals, involving internal medicine, geriatric and 
    psychiatric care.  I've had some pretty bizarre experiences
    involving patients undergoing various forms of stress and healing.
    
    Simple barbituate intoxication in cardiac patients seems very close
    to dementia.  It isn't.  Once the patient is off the phenobarb,
    sane behavior returns.  It's pretty upsetting to the families.
    Agreed, Topher, reduced liver and kidney functions cause sedatives
    to accumulate intthe body and increases psych. impact.  The best
    thing to do you've already done.  Report any observations to the
    medical staff.  Try to do so calmly in spite of how you feel.
    They need and value objective information.  They understand and
    appreciate what you're going through.  They do not have an easy
    job.  Other causes of abberent behaviour include unbalanced
    blood electrolytes, hormones, blood acidity, I could go on and
    on.  Most of the symptoms disappear when the cause is removed.
    
    Good luck and support each other until this passes......MWR
    

    This digresses from the medical track for just a moment to speculate
    on what particular vision of reality your wife's aunt's behavior
    may be based on.  While it may be (somewhat) comforting to think that
    her behavior has a physical cause (and I think it does) it is extremely
    uneasy-making to think that she might *actually* be possessed. 
    One may well wonder: under extreme stress, might some evil entity
    use the weakness and vulnerability of a stricken person to gain
    entry, the same way brainwashers weaken a person's psychological
    defenses with physical means to get them to change their tunes?
    
    I don't think she is possessed.  What I do think is this: When under
    extreme stress (and being hospitalized, having surgery and medication
    is an extreme stressor in people of any age) there can be a tendency
    to revert to the earliest visions of reality learned (because the
    present reality is in some way intolerable).  This old lady was raised
    in an era when many were still told that they were naturally sinful
    and evil, that the Devil or Satan was controlling their actions,
    that they could only pray to God for salvation, but that they
    themselves were hopeless; my 80 year old grandmother has told me
    this about her own upbringing.  So the lady in distress may well,
    in some way known only to her inner self, believe herself to be
    either under the sway of some evil, outside force, or that she now *is*
    this evil force -- because her earliest upbringing stressed this
    was the truth of her inner self.  If brain impairment of some kind
    is involved in her condition, the symbology probably won't hang
    together completely either, but various symbols will be expressed
    in a disconnected fashion.
    
    My own experience with this kind of thing: My father died a slow
    death of a brain disease, and was only vaguely connected to present
    reality towards his end.  But he would speak with great clarity and
    apparent reasoning force to my mother as if the past were the present.
    At times he seemed to be focused on the days when we were babies
    (admonishing her to feed us, to call his mother and make sure she
    knew they would be late picking us up) other times he seemed rooted
    somewhere in his childhood, sometimes the two were intermixed. 
    It was definitely startling and very confusing to listen to someone
    speak as if they made all the sense in the world while making no sense
    at all.  It was not at all how I'd envisioned a brain-impaired person
    might speak -- I'd always thought they would speak vaguely, mumble
    incoherently, that I'd be able to tell when they were out of it.
    The only way you knew my father was out of it was when you analyzed
    the content of his speech.  And even though he evoked no images
    of possible evil, my mom said that it really gave her the creeps
    and made her feel very disoriented and disconnected.
    
    Hope this helps; feel free to write to me offline if you like.
    
    Marcia

    RE: .0
    
    Have her checked for a brain tumor.
    
    
    John M.

    
                         A FOLLOW-UP...
    
    A quick thanks for the previous answers.  This womans daughter
    came to visit over the last few days.  She is a very religous
    women and prayed a great deal while she was here.  Her mother
    (my wifes great aunt) seems to have completely recovered.  I
    saw her yesterday and she seemed to be a completely different
    woman from the one a couple of weeks ago.  She does not have 
    any confusion any longer and probably will be able to leave the
    hospital within a few days or so.  The doctors really don't know
    what to make of it.  Her confusion was not brought on by drugs.
    Her daughter felt that there was some sort of demonic oppresion
    going on with her mother.  It really was amazing to see the change
    in this old woman virtually over night.  She seems to be well on
    her way to recovery!  Now I'm pretty skeptical about these sorts
    of things but from what I've seen - well, I guess we can chalk one
    up for God...
    
                                                Bill    

    
    >   using comet::axton 
    
     couldn't access dejavu...
    
                                  Bill

    
    
      Just a final follow-up to this story.  The woman (Hilda) died 
     Dec. 10th following a recurrence of pneumonia.  It was sad
     because she had really come around for a time and appeared to
     be 'on the road to recovery.'  Thanks for some of the helpful
     answers.
                                            Bill