Conference hydra::dejavu

    re: .0
      
        What an enormous question you have asked!  *THAT* you have 
    asked it and have that much interest is perhaps the single biggest
    asset that you can utilize.  Congratulations for that.
    
        I think it's a shame that so much of the planet never asks
    that question and/or doesn't ever reach very far in answering or
    attempting to answer it.  How many answers are there?  As many as
    there are consciousnesses.  So it is obviously up to you to make
    the best choices you can (but you already know that.)  Where does
    one begin?  You already have so no problem there.
    
        I first got "serious" about that question in college when I
    determined that I would use psychology (an elective at that time)
    as a possible help in future parenthood.  I became interested enough
    to drop my original major and to switch to psychology.  What I have
    learned the past ten years virtually negates most of it...or at
    least sheds it in a different light.  I have a son now and often
    wish that so many things I did I had done differently.  There's
    no reason to beat myself up for mistakes I made, however...that
    was a different me "back then", a me I understand and empathize
    with but don't sympathize with.  So I work at forgiving myself
    then and now and getting on with creating the future.  The "results"
    of my fatherhood (or maybe it should be "parenthood") speak well
    as far as can be presently determined...but that is not as important
    as the means.  
    
         The most important thing to teach your child?  To love itself.
    The most important thing you can do to teach that?  Love yourself.
    Show by example that you love, that you are loved and that you 
    respond to that love.  Show that you love life and its "mysteries"
    and complexities.  Show that the world is a friendly place, not
    an obstacle to be overcome.  Remember that sometimes loving someone
    or something is saying "no" to them.  Respect your principles.
    Respect their principles as they develop.  You see, there is a duality
    of sorts.  On the one hand, you are a consciousness that is no
    more valuable than it is.  That side of you wants it to be a friend
    on equal terms.  On the other side is a responsibility which you
    have agreed to to be a parent...which guides, shapes, molds thoughts
    and ideas and feelings for that consciousness...at least until it
    determines (as we all must) what ideas, feelings, thoughts, etc.
    it wishes to have on its own (or to get back into harmony with.)
    Specifically, it would be difficult to tell you what to do...each
    of us has radically different criteria from the milieu in which
    we grow, so it would be rather inappropriate to tell you with any
    chance of precision what to do when he/she reaches for the bottle
    of oven cleaner, e.g., beyond telling you that the oven cleaner
    should not be drunk or toyed with.  This is *your* opportunity to
    take on this major responsibility.  How much integrity do you have
    with it?  What is your intention?  If you are always striving to
    maintain the highest standards you can, then be content.  
    
         I think I'm starting to sound like something we've all heard
    before...yet most of us ignore it (until we realize the damage
    we've done or errors we've made.)  So, I won't go on.  
    
         You are entering a world (that of parenthood) that will shake
    you from the world you have known.  Not better...just different.
    Have fun with it for there are many beautiful lessons within it.
    
    
    Frederick
    

    Re:0
    
      Bring a child up in the way that He/She shall go, and when they
    get old they won't depart. A child is like a piece of software:
    What ever you put in that child is going to come out. I'm not saying
    that they are not going to rebel, because they are, but it will
    only last for a season, then they will return. My advice to you,
    is to: bring your child up in the way of the Lord Jesus Christ,
    but before you teach it, (If you are not already) You must live
    the life yourself. A good book to start reading in the bible, that
    will help you, is the book of proverbs: it is a book of wisdom.
    
    May the peace of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ be with you always!
    
    LORENZO
    

    read _The Magical Child_ by Joseph Chilton Pearce  for ways
    to raise children without repressing their desires and capabilities for
    awareness and spiritual growth.
    
    happiness/bruce

Wow!  An invitation to explain my views on child rearing in a public
forum :-)

Seriously, the title of your note tells me that you already have a good
idea of what child rearing is all about.  I'm not sure if the following
is really what you are looking for, but it may be worthwhile reading.
Remember, these are my opinions only.  

This is what has worked for us:

Babies should be nurtured.  Babies should be held frequently.  Contrary
to popular belief, responding to an infants cry will not spoil the child.
It will teach the baby that his needs are met, thereby fostering a sense
of security.  Babies (and children) should not be left to cry themselves
to sleep.  I believe that a baby can never be held too much.  Our son
slept with us for the first 6 months.  I would not go so far as to recom-
mend this practice to others, because of rumors that infants can be crushed
or smothered.  

Barring emergencies, strollers are right out. Babies should be carried 
(Snugglies are nice).   Strollers are so cold and impersonal.  And what
kind of stimulation is a sea of legs?  Being carried gives a child the
benefit of human touch, warmth, a chance to tune in to respiration and
heartbeat (a live person!).  Babies are very attuned to faces. 

Kids should follow their own natural rhythm for sleeping and waking. 

Children of all ages should be treated with love, courtesy and respect.

Children learn best when treated in a positive, gentle manner.  I do not
believe in physical punishment.  I do believe in teaching children in a
positive manner.  Above all, my child will be looking to me as a role
model.  Kids are smart.  Appeal to their intelligence, tell them WHY
particular actions are not appropriate, rather than punishing, or threatening
punishment, for misbehavior.  Let children learn to avoid the act, not to
avoid the punishment.

Many children have 'imaginary' friends.  In my mind, these friends are 
guides, that we have trained (or been trained) not to see.  Talk to your
child about these friends.

Dreams and nightmares can be very real.  Again, look at it from a psychic
standpoint and help the child to deal positively with the experience.

Oddly, my son has never had 'imaginary' friends.  And he has only rarely
remembered dreaming. He's never had nightmares.

Above all, be a good role model.  

Basically, I've touched on the practical aspects of childrearing.  I think
many of my practices contribute to development of an emotionally, mentally
and physically loving, secure and well-rounded child.  Our goal was to
raise our son to be a responsible, loving and positive (that's a real key
aspect-so many child-rearing methods are negative) adult.  We're half-way
there, and so far it looks very promising!

Coincidentally, today is my son's 9th birthday.  Jamey is a loving, secure,
intelligent, polite and mischiveous little boy (am I a proud mom or what?).

Deborah


Congratulations!  Having a child is a wonderful, fulfilling (frustrating
and tiresome!) experience.  It truely is a 'blessed event'....

RE: .0    
      
      
I, too, had some of these concerns, regarding orthodox religious beliefs, 
as well as the how's and why's of child-rearing.  Believe me, until the 
child is old enough to even know it's own name, you need not worry too much.
      
We have to teach them something.  So I began with the "Now I lay me" and we 
said our prayers every evening.  The children need some sort of structure 
and although we may disagree with or question some of the bible, it is the good 
book and it's analogies and parables can be understood even by the most 
ignorant.  Good is better than bad.  Simple.  There is a basis.
      
I got particularly disturbed with the fact that children are not allowed a 
quiet time in some schools, or a prayer period, so although I was not 
Catholic I did enroll her into a Parochial school for 3 years.  Here she 
learned the basics.  God, Christ, etc.  She is 10 now and in public school. 
I have become very "centered" recently and in my own discovering, so she is 
discovering.  I answer her questions about spirituality the best way I know 
and hope that she will understand some day.
      
Love opens all doors...........
      
Cheryl
      
p.s. about 'feeling' what you are going to give birth to......looks 50/50 
     me  ;^) ??  - they said it was a boy because of the heartbeats per/min
     but lo and behold....a bouncing baby girl was born....and someone told
     me once they saw my house tied up in a pink ribbon...
      
      

    re: .0
    
    
         This is just my intuition, but....It 'feels' to me that you
    will have a child with very high moral values, dedication to working
    for the salvation of mankind, and a fierce fighter as such. She
    (I have the feeling it's a girl) will be almost a prototypic example
    of some of the leaders of the 60's revolution. You will probably
    first notice these characteristics when she is very young. As for
    'how' to raise this child--you don't have to worry. You'll go through
    a lot of frustration as she begins to express her strong will so
    early in life, but I would guess that the only "formula" is to protect
    her from time to time, encourage her explorations and her expressions
    of feeling, and try not to force her to conform to society's values.
    It seems you have the opportunity to present to the world, at a
    time when we will most need it, a genuine force for humanity. Good
    luck!
    
    
    
    Roy

Thank you all for your replies and wishes. I will let you know how things
turn out.

Thanks especially for .6 ... You took the hopes right out of my mind.

Martin

        Though I did not attend the four-day Intensive with Lazaris
    that ended yesterday, my girlfriend did.  She passed on to me this
    little bit that came out of one of the one-on-one discussions:
        ...that we are responsible for three things in terms of our
    children.  1.  Their manners (in interacting with others)
    2.  Their education (responsibly doing the best we know
    and 3. to teach them Self-love.
    
    Frederick
    

re: .8  (Frederick)

    >    ...that we are responsible for three things in terms of our
    > children.  1.  Their manners (in interacting with others)
    > 2.  Their education (responsibly doing the best we know
    > and 3. to teach them Self-love.
    
    I agree but would like to add that it is possible for us to learn
    these things from our children as well, sometimes in real profound
    ways.

    Terry

    re: .9  (Terry)
    
         I agree that we *Can* learn from our children, and even
    that we *Do* but not that we are responsible for doing so.
    In other words, as responsible ADULTS, we are charged with
    certain "duties".  These do not include learning from our
    children.  It is a mistake, I believe, to make children out
    to be great teachers somehow.  They function with child
    egos, which are different from adult egos (not better or worse,
    just different) and can be as highly manipulative, etc. as
    any adult's.  That you see a certain beauty in children,
    and see a lesson therein, is wonderful...but I wouldn't let
    my life be "ruled" by it.  It is dangerous, furthermore, to
    desire returning to the child state (witness the old or getting
    old in our society--who in their efforts to be young cause
    major physical maladies to themselves.)  What is important
    is learning how to be an adult...contact with the child within
    is perhaps essential, but can be done meditationally much more
    effectively.  This note had to do with that.
        Last night I was talking to a friend on the phone with whom
    I have talked before about "hanging on to parents."  She has
    consistently refused to "let go."  As a result, she is constantly
    having problems with her mother, who in the latest round told
    her "I'm the mother, you're the daughter."  As long as they 
    continue to hold those roles, trouble will always be just around
    the corner.  The point Lazaris was making is that those three things
    are the only ones you need to be responsible for...beyond that you
    do things because you WANT to, not because you HAVE to.  Constantly
    expecting things in return probably indicate HAVING.  Freely giving
    is likely to be because the person wants to do that.  Parents who
    take on guilt (sometimes as a result of a child's manipulation)
    over the "results" of their responsible raising of their children
    are doing themselves a major disservice.  After the job of "raising"
    them is done, wipe your hands and get going with your own life.
    If the contact with the children remains, do so as adult to adult,
    friend to friend.  Sure, you'll always know who the biological/social
    parent is/was, but that role will/should have been terminated. 
    One can argue this all they want...ultimately this solution is
    necessary (each of us needs to be totally responsible for our
    realities...as long as we have mommy or daddy or some substitute,
    we cannot be.)  Therefore, as a parent, we need to take the first
    steps and not wait for our children to show us how.
    
    Frederick
    

>as responsible ADULTS, we are charged with
>certain "duties".  These do not include learning from our
>children.  

I'm not sure I agree.  As people, we can all learn from one another.  Each has 
something to offer.  Perhaps a "duty" (I'd prefer another word) for a parent is 
to remember that the child is also a person and therefore has something to 
offer from which the parent/adult may be able to learn.  When adults take on 
this kind of openness toward children, I would think it would override the "I'm 
an adult and have had all of the experience and therefore know more than you do 
about everything" attitude that I feel is destructive to the child's confidence 
and creativity.

Children and adults are people; we can learn from each other; I think it 
depends on what we perceive as the lesson.

>It is dangerous, furthermore, to desire returning to the child state 

Maybe you mean something different by "the child state" than I think of when I 
hear the term, so I'll change it to "the Egg".  I like to think of myself as 
being able to see things new, to not take things for granted (although I do 
anyway sometimes; I try to be conscious of this), and to therefore be open to 
what I might be able to hear or experience that is new.

>What is important is learning how to be an adult

I agree with this; I just don't think it's necessary to cut off being a child. 
I think one does not necessarily preclude the other.

I agree that taking on guilt is doing the Self a disservice; however, it seems 
to be a part of life; I know of no one who is guiltless all the time (I 
associate guilt with regret).  As for raising the child and then letting go 
completely of the role of parent, I've not had the experience, but I have a 
strong hunch that says it's easier said than done.  As for necessary, I'm not 
altogether certain that it's 100% completely necessary.

    re: .11 MEredith
    
        I chose my words fairly carefully/consciously.  I wanted to
    make it clear of what is NECESSARY, not what is DESIRABLE.
    I used "duty" because I, too, am not happy with that word.
    
        As for 100%, I said "ultimately".  Again, as we set up ideals,
    they are never met...they are just worked towards.  We may never
    be totally free of many of these things in our lifetimes (guilt,
    e.g.) but that doesn't mean we don't set up ideals towards
    eliminating some things or accomplishing others.
        Again, I don't say we can't learn from our children, just
    that we don't HAVE to.
    
    Frederick
    

re: .10 (Frederick)

    >      I agree that we *Can* learn from our children, and even
    > that we *Do* but not that we are responsible for doing so.
    > In other words, as responsible ADULTS, we are charged with
    > certain "duties".  These do not include learning from our
    > children.  

    Remember, I agreed with your note (.8) but added the children 
    part as an additional observation.  The first person we are responsible 
    for/to is ourselves.  In everyone we meet there is potential for 
    learning.  Particularily in first encounters since our impressions of 
    the individual are most likely projections of some inner part of 
    ourselves.  We should pay close attention to these feelings and find 
    within where they are coming from and what this inner 'person' needs 
    from us.  As far as duty (I don't like the word either, 'duty' is
    what some folks call the stuff dog's deposit on the living room rug),
    each of us has a purpose, to work towards that purpose requires learning.
    It doesn't matter where or from who we learn, only that we eventually do.
    Anyone can be a great teacher, including children, penniless wino's walking
    the streets, parents, friends, Jesus, anyone.  Sometimes from just
    seeing or observing them, not necessarily having them 'preach' to us.
   
    > It is a mistake, I believe, to make children out
    > to be great teachers somehow.  They function with child
    > egos, which are different from adult egos (not better or worse,
    > just different) and can be as highly manipulative, etc. as
    > any adult's.  

    I don't think so, They can be teachers but no more that anyone else -
    and I don't mean teacher such as an instructor, professor, guide, etc.
    We can learn from their experiences and their observations.  Their
    perceptions are different than ours, their ego's are different but
    not so tainted.  The freshness in their outlook can be wonderful.
    If we could believe in ourselves like children seem to believe in
    theirselves, I wonder what we could do.
    
    > I wouldn't let my life be "ruled" by it.  It is dangerous, furthermore, 
    > to desire returning to the child state (witness the old or getting
    > old in our society--who in their efforts to be young cause
    > major physical maladies to themselves.) 

    I think you are mistaking a part of consciousness with the fear of
    death that some elderly folks suffer.  They are trying to hold onto 
    their physicality, not necessarily bring into their consciouness the
    freshness of looking at life through the eyes of a child.  Holding
    onto anything, be it parents, youth, or a BMW can produce negative
    results.  Again, when we feel this we need to look inside to see
    why/what we are projecting and find the real need and take care of
    it.

    This is from memory from "The Eyes of a Child" by the Moody Blues
    that kinda says it nicely...

        "In the eyes of a child, you must come out and see 
        Through their world spinning 'round and how life it can be,
        A small part of the whole of a love that exists
        In the eyes of a child you will see."

    Terry

                 
    A friend of mine wrote to me recently that 'the greatest teachers
    are also the greatest students'.
    
    If we are all students and teachers at the same time, this is the
    best of all worlds.  It is only when a parent gets stuck in the
    'I'm the parent and therefore I always know best and you never do' 
    (hm...sounds like a TV show) then it doesn't work anymore.  
    
    Cindy

Cindy,

Yeah!  (Is this DEJAVU or what!!!!)

ha ha!
m

    Hello again,
    		Just for completeness, my wife had a boy (sorry Roy.6)
    on May 19th at 12:17pm BST in Reading, Berks. I know the time as my
    wife had a Caesarian,and I was there.          
    
    Alexander was conceived via IVF (test-tube) and he was born 40 weeks
    to the day that he was 'put back'.
    
    I would be very gratefull if one of you astrologers out there would
    do a brief chart on personality or future for him. Donations will
    be made to any charity.
    
     Does anyone have any thoughts on the implications of an assisted
    conception and birth as apposed to 'natural' ones on the
    spiritual/astrological development of a person ?
    
    Thanks again for your best wishes earlier. 



                                                               

    
    Congratulations!
    
    Cindy

                                                          
    Re.0 (HEAD::GURRAN)
    
    Please contact me directly - I'm trying to send a note to you offline,
    however my node does not recognize yours (LEG or HEAD).
    
    Cindy

    ..... welll.....
    
    Ceasar did okay ......
    
    :-)
    
    mary