| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 833.1 | take a deep breath...then talkreallyfast! | WRO8A::WARDFR | Going HOME--as an Adventurer | Thu Aug 18 1988 12:49 | 107 |
| RE: .0
This was discussed at least to some extent in a couple of other
notes, notably 288. (Maybe this should be moved there.) Anyway,
I would tend to agree with what you say in regards to Ramtha. Ramtha's
energy has seemed to shift in the last couple of years. But as
I have pointed out before, there are many "levels" of being. The
proof of this is only in how we interpret the data that we hear
(at least for those of us who are physical.)
Let me clarify or remind you what Lazaris has stated before
in terms of "levels". There are infinite levels of existence...
all the way to God/Goddess/All-That-Is. God/Goddess/All-That-Is
will never fully know itself...it is dynamic and constantly growing
(expanding and contracting.) If not, there would never be any room
for our own growth, since we are a part of God/Goddess/All-That-Is.
The physical level actually consists of four "planes". The "highest"
plane is called the mental...this is the level where everything
is IMPOSSIBLE. It is the level that "Christ-consciousness" refers
to as heaven. It is extremely blissful, apparently. The next rung
"down" is called the causal plane...this is where all causes and
effects are. It is everything that is POSSIBLE. It is a plane
with no horizons. The "third" plane "down" is called the Astral.
It is the level at which all thought is PROBABLE. Most of us are
very familiar with this plane since most of our dreaming occurs
there. Then we get to the physical plane...the densest available
in this reality. It, as we can see, is where reality is ACTUAL.
This digression is to remind us that beings exist on all levels.
That is, we all exist on all levels, but we have no conscious seat
of power on other levels (no person I know, anyway.) Beings, via
"growth", expand from one level to another. There are certain
"criteria" for doing so...I will avoid that for now. Many on the
astral plane are not highly evolved. Most are considered to be
"lower astral". This should not be surprising, since many humans
could be similarly labeled (as "lowly evolved humans" perhaps.)
I believe Ramtha falls into an astral category...I do not know
where. Part of my reason has to do with the "Warrior" image which
Ramtha is so proud of. Another has to do with the way Ramtha
takes our responsibility away from us (by sending or promising
to send us "runners" or help, etc.) Doing it for us (as most
religions want to have us supplicate to a God in a similar fashion)
is not conducive to growth. That is abnegating our responsibility.
The greatest freedom comes with total responsibility. Turning
responsibility over to anything or anyone else is anathema to
growth. Point made.
How do we prove Lazaris exists? All we can note is that Jach
closes his eyes and a different voice and different facial expressions
come forth. Is this an act? It would perhaps be the greatest acting
of all time by the most wise and intelligent human who has ever
lived. Believe me, though Jach is intelligent, he is not *that*
intelligent. Jach got a bachelor's degree in political science
from Michigan University (I believe) and went to work selling
insurance or at least working in the insurance industry. He
was 27 years old when Lazaris first came through and had (according
to all accounts) never dabbled in metaphysics (that was in the
ancient age of 1974, after all.) What is interesting, for counter-
argument sake, is that the energy we call Lazaris has not changed
in 14 years. The same insight and wisdom is there. Moreover
I understand that "scientific" testing (using voice prints) has
shown a different voice than Jach's. This is almost impossible
even for master voice impersonators. My own proof (and virtually
everyone I know has had difficulty accepting what Lazaris is
supposed to be, at first) comes at the heels of six years of
being exposed to him on tapes, in person and at workshops. I
have enough proof for myself to acknowledge him as the greatest
teacher I have ever had. I have experienced a part of his love,
which is quite overpowering, especially when we experience him
in person whether on the phone or in a blending or during a
brief meeting with him via the channel (which is no stronger,
but our beliefs make it seem so.) I have experienced him talking
for over 12 hours per day for five days straight, never losing
his "place" and never stumbling (long, "thinking" pauses, e.g.)
and always disseminating all the information that was to be
presented without "messing it up" or referring to notes, helpers,
etc. And the depth of information is staggering. I know many
MENSAns (a club consisting of high IQ people) who attend Lazaris
workshops who are similarly staggered by the wealth of information,
both in quantity and quality. Also, for those who allow themselves,
the meditations are frequently the most (or nearly most) emotional
experiences that they have ever felt. Like I say, the depth of love
is remarkable.
So, as I have indicated before, I will not vouch for all
channels. I have listened to others and have not been overly
impressed. Similarly, you might listen to Lazaris and come away
with that same, weak impact. I present his rationale and explanations
here very often because it makes damn good sense to me and I wish
to share it. Everyone still has the choice of believing whatever
they choose, however. From where I sit, if we all practiced what
Lazaris teaches, we would experience an abundance and wealth of
life like none of us has really believed to be probable. Which
brings me to a slight digression. Note that the causal plane is
everything that is possible...this is why Lazaris frequently takes
us there in our meditations; so that we can bring "back" to this
reality anything that we ask for from the causal plane. It is a
bit more involved than this, but that's the "principle." Also,
what exists beyond the mental plane? Nothing. If it did, we'd
be able to know about it. Lazaris comes from none of these four
levels, according to him. He is "beyond" the physical realm.
Wait a second, something sounds "wrong" here, right? True. So
we can put it another way. Whatever exists beyond the mental plane
is beyond any understanding that we presently have. Suffice to
leave it at that.
Perhaps this has answered some of your questions. Perhaps
not. In either case, it's all I have time for at the moment.
Until later,
Frederick
|
| 833.2 | Re: .1 | SHRBIZ::WAINE | Linda | Thu Aug 18 1988 13:50 | 25 |
| Re: .1
Frederick,
Has Jach ever had any physical phenomena occur in addition to
the voice change such as ectoplasm, apports, etc under scientific
conditions? Has Jach ever undergone blood-chemistry tests while in
trance? Has Jach ever given anyone personal evidence/readings,
bringing forth specific information unique to an individual in which
he had no access to the knowledge before-hand? Had he undergone any
other tests, besides the voice tests?
I agree with you that the voice test and the length of the
sessions can be indicative of genuine mediumship, but I think that
this is only a beginning....
Thanks,
Linda
P.S. I think that this should be kept a different note as that it
pertains to "how can you tell if a medium (in general) is genuine or
not" as opposed to a specific medium. I used Lazaris and Ramtha as
examples, since they are currently most popular in the "channeling"
circles.
|
| 833.3 | Can we get a vat of chocolate over here? | WRO8A::WARDFR | Going HOME--as an Adventurer | Thu Aug 18 1988 14:57 | 73 |
| re: -.1
Linda, some of your questions have already been answered.
Please read 288 for more information. What is interesting is
that "scientific proof" is always sought while looking for
the "unexplainable". Consider that an aside to which I do not
want a response. :-) Again, I speak mostly from my awareness
of Lazaris, not Arthur Ford, or Seth or Ramtha or many others
past or present. Lazaris is not "in Jach's body". Period.
! Exclamation point. Again, there are about 40 pages devoted
to similar or related questions in Lazaris Interviews II. Also,
there is a tape and reprint from the tape available called
Lazaris Explains Lazaris, should you wish to hear him directly
quoted. Jach is much like a tv set. Lazaris sits at the "studio".
Energy is transmuted (and "down-stepped" according to Lazaris)
"over-the-airways" to Jach's "receiver". It is Jach's "tuner"
which receives and transforms the energy to whatever it is that
we in turn transform and interpret individually. It remains
Jach's body, with what I might consider "residuals" of Jach's
consciousness in charge. Lazaris (with Jach's permission)
utilizes Jach's physical controls to manipulate them for the
purpose of communication. I have never seen Lazaris stand up.
He could, but he chooses not to. (Answers in the book.)
As for phenomena, there have been certain ones reported. Once
Jach went to visit a friend (with a serious illness) in the hospital
and went into trance to get Lazaris' help. Lazaris laid the channel's
hands on the person and the body proceeded to get levitated about
one foot off the bed. Needless to say, it scared the sh*t out of
the person (and cured them in the process!) Lazaris has said that
he has had to make certain "adjustments" to the communication with the
channel over time...(the hospital story was one such.) Again, he is
not here to "DO" our reality for us. He shys away from overt displays
of "supernatural power" because we humans tend to get all caught
up in that rather than the message (just witness the majority of
the notes in DEJAVU as evidence.) He is not here to impress us,
he is here to open us up to exponential spiritual growth. He has
an immense amount of integrity towards that.
Jach originally thought he was going crazy (when his then
wife Peny told him what was happening while he was "asleep")
especially the first time he heard a tape recording Peny had made
of a "meditation/sleep" session during which Lazaris came through.
It caused him a great deal of distress (see foreward to Interviews
I and II, also some information in the foreward to "A Sacred Journey".)
One of the specialists he went to see was a man named Michaell Prestini.
(To determine whether in fact he was crazy or something else was
occurring.) Michaell North (he recently changed from Prestini)
has been married to Jach's former wife, Peny, for about a decade
now. Clearly Michaell, the "former expert", was convinced of the
genuiness of the "article." I am unaware of other tests; testing
at this point would be ludicrous, save to satisfy the egos of certain
individuals who would rather do that than TRUST.
Yes, absolutely, to whether Lazaris knows individual things
that others would not! Absolutely!! He has repeatedly demonstrated
this to me and to virtually everyone else I have ever spoken with
who has had a private consultation wherein that kind of data would
have appeared. There is no question in my mind that he is completely
aware of our entire "lifetimes(S)" He has reported his awareness
as analogous to a hologram...he can tap into any part and see the
whole. The "trick" even for him is to separate out that which we
call present from that which we call past or future, since time
is an illusion existing in ACTUALITY only in the physical plane.
Also, he is wary of our negative egos and will not "feed" them.
So, to that extent, you cannot "trick" him to answer things. I
swear to you that by the greatest truth of which I am aware all
of what I say is true.
If you want more tests, you are unlikely to find any. If you
wish to read/listen/hear the information and discover if it has
truth and value for you, there is enough available to keep you
busy for the remainder of your incarnation as Linda, and maybe
even beyond that.
Frederick
|
| 833.4 | Re: .3 | SHRBIZ::WAINE | Linda | Fri Aug 19 1988 11:13 | 71 |
| Re: .3
Frederick, I am not picking on Lazaris, per se. If you think that
Lazaris is legitimate, fine, so-be-it, embrace it, live it, etc. I
support you entirely. I am just questioning the scientific or
personal proof and evidence of ALL mediums/trance channelers, in general.
Here is an example of what I mean:
There is a trance-adept, physical-phenomena medium by the name
of Keith Milton Rhinehart (founder of the Aqaurian Foundation in
1955 in Seattle). He is, as far as I'm concerned, the most
scientifically tested physical phenomena medium I've ever heard
of. An example of the testing that he has undergone is a specifically
designed chair at the University of Osaka, Japan, that once strapped
in the chair, the slightest movement is registered on a computer.
Well, several seances were held at the laboratory with Keith strapped
in to the chair, under infra-red light so that the seances could
be filmed. During these seances, ectoplasm came forth from Keith's
body and materialized into beings who said that they were the
Masters of the Far East, and began to give lectures on every aspect
of life mentionable. I repeat, this all occurred while Keith
was strapped in the chair, under scientific conditions. Also during
these seances (and in most of the many seances of Keith), all sorts
of faceted crystals, rings, pins with the clasps undone, necklaces
(small and huge), etc. came out of his eyes, mouths, ears, and openings
that appeared in his skin.
Keith has done seances in which each member of a filled auditorium
(hundreds of people) received specific personal proof and evidence
(such as your grandmother Elizabeth is here, she is wearing a blue
dress and smoking a Havana cigar and wants to tell you that you
shouldn't feel guilty about your baby brother's bike accident that
you caused when you were 10).
A friend of mine is a medical doctor and he "toured" with Keith
and did countless blood-chemistry experiments while Keith was in
tranced. He has found that there are definitely blood-chemistry
changes in legitimate mediums. He told me of many "incredible"
things that he saw up close. For example, prior to going into
trance one thing that Keith does is to fill his mouth with water
then tape his mouth shut and mark where the tape was put. Well,
at the end of the seance, Keith expelled the water into a bucket
that my friend gave him. Well, my friend put the bucket down and
sat down by the bucket. He looked into the bucket and saw white,
globules floating in the water that Keith just expelled. He sat
and watch the globules and over a short period of time (minutes)
he watched the globules solidify into faceted, colored crystals.
My point of all this is that for me to accept a lot of what
a "medium" brings forth, there has got to be some sort of proof
and evidence demonstrated of some sort. Yes, faith is a big
part of this since we are dealing with religion/philosophy,etc;
but a medium should be able to constantly and reliably demonstrate
their mediumship ability under some sort of scientific proof and
evidence. Remember, keep your critical faculties....
Also, in my opinion, any being that comes through a medium should
stress that a person should take the information given and examine
it and analyze it and disect it, and put it through logic tests.
If and only if the information passes this, should a person then
accept it as truth. The information should not be accepted just
because "so-and-so" said so. Also, the being should stress that
when a person relays the information, the person should make
clear that what is being said is coming from the person's own
consciousness - what the person interprets the information to be -
unless the person is doing a direct quote.
So, what I want to know is what sort of scientific proof and evidence
has J.Z.Knight, Jane Roberts, etc. undergone???
Linda
|
| 833.5 | Quark charmers are relatively thoughtless. | WRO8A::WARDFR | Going HOME--as an Adventurer | Fri Aug 19 1988 12:11 | 38 |
| RE: .4
No problem, Linda. I pretty much can agree with most of what
you say here. The story you tell is quite fascinating. I have
heard that several "masters" or "mystics" or "swamis", etc.
(Sai Baba comes to mind) have done similar things. For me what
this does is "proves" that we can indeed manifest "at will" under
the proper preconditions. Also, it is reasonably clear that all
information is available to us (akashic record, e.g.) from the
entire collective unconscious or another individual's sub-conscious
(and we should similarly be able to cull information from our own
sub-conscious, at that.)
As for Lazaris and some of the points you stress "in general",
no problem there, either. To quote him (from the Interviews II
book:) "We don't want people listening to us 'because Lazaris said
so, and he's from such-and-such a plane of reality.' We want people
to listen because 'Hey, what he says makes sense, and more than
makes sense, it really works. And more than really works, it has
really benefitted me. That's why I listen.' That's why we want
you to listen. So we basically say, 'What plane would you like
us to be on? We'll meet you there.'"
I do not require scientific proof as you do, partly because
I have learned (and I did many double-blind tests in many of my Psych
classes) that science is not overwhelmingly reliable AND, I have,
with TRUST (*NOT* FAITH) worked with other reality creation beliefs
and attitudes and produced results...that may not necessarily be
conclusively determined by "science." I guess what I am saying
is that in espousing the suggestions made by Lazaris, I am working
at giving the collective unconscious the slip...and am becoming
aware of a different reality. For me, though it is still a bit
hazy, it is becoming increasingly clearer.
As the circus falls by the wayside, with all its snake-oil
sales people and bearded ladies, what will be left is a truer
picture of what in life has value.
Frederick
|
| 833.6 | Reading Recommendation | SCOPE::PAINTER | Wonders never cease. | Fri Aug 19 1988 12:26 | 8 |
|
There is a book out entitled "Channelling", by Jon Klimo. I haven't
read it all, however what I have read of it seems to be quite balanced.
If you're interested in having a look at the table of contents,
let me know and I'll bring the book in and post the TofC here.
Cindy
|
| 833.7 | Need more data. | MEMV01::RENGA | IM1RU12 | Fri Aug 19 1988 14:06 | 8 |
| Re: .4
Fascinating! I would like to learn more about Keith Milton Rhinehart.
Can you recommend any books?
Thanks,
Vince
|
| 833.8 | | WILLEE::FRETTS | Love our Mother Earth | Fri Aug 19 1988 16:20 | 44 |
|
Linda (and everyone else :-),
Some of my thoughts on mediumship....
During the height of the modern spiritualist movement in this
country, many mediums were put through similar tests as you have
described. How they were able to work/give evidence under
some of the conditions is amazing. It's too bad James Randi
wasn't around to witness the events that occurred with the
physical medium you spoke about:-). However, there are many
different types of mediumship that, to me, would be very difficult
to prove the validity of scientifically.
Physical mediumship in which physical objects are moved or
apported, or there is a manifestation of spirit, seems the most
likely to give measurable results. Also, because a physical
mediums body/energy is more involved in the process, testing of
the mediums physical changes would also give more measurable results.
However, when we start to look at "mental" mediumship, we are dealing
with less physical information. There are "light" trance mediums
who are much more consciously aware during the trance than a "deep"
trance medium would be. I doubt that there would be a big difference
in their physical energy. Then there are mediums who work with
"telepathy" in combination with clairvoyance, clairaudience, and/or
clairsentience. Much of the work done by these types of mediums
is for evidence of survival. The main proof of the validity of
the information passed along is the impact it has on the person
who is receiving the information. It is very subjective.
I agree that anyone who is working as a medium must take
responsibility for what is communicated through them. And
they should also make sure that their ego doesn't take over
and they stop working/questioning. It's important to always
be aware of what you are doing, and to question whether the
communication is coming from spirit or if it is being
picked up psychicly from the sitter. I am also of the opinion
that there is no such thing as a perfectly *clear* channel/
medium - the person working as the instrument of communication
is always involved to some extent.
Carole
|
| 833.9 | experience has been more convincing than speculation; | SSDEVO::ACKLEY | wow | Sun Aug 21 1988 01:36 | 63 |
|
A few weeks back I went to visit a 'channeler' and found it
to be a very interesting experience. As for it's genuineness,
this calls for some subjective judgement. The experience seemed
personally tuned to me, and another person watching it on video
or something would probably not have been so impressed.
I had gone to visit my brother and his wife, and it was they
who made this appointment. They both have degrees in psychology,
in the 'behaviorist' school, and frankly, I was surprised that
they were open to such things. The channeler was Nancy Doyne,
in New Jersey. She charged $80 for what turned out to be about
a two hour session. They had never been to her or any other
channeler before, nor had I. We were there on the reccomendation
of friends. We all seemed to view it as a Saturday's entertainment,
and we went with fairly open minds.
We had two personal sessions, one for me, and one for my
brother, and both were taped on cassette. Later we listened
to each other's tapes and were more impressed once we heard the
differences and similarities in the sessions.
My brother was very open with her, and had quite a two
way discussion delving into past lives and karmic goals for
this life. Every point she brought up was accurately aimed
at some real issue, although she sometimes had difficulty with
details. For instance she remarked that my brother had a
resistance to helping with the cooking, while the fact is that
my brother enjoys cooking and makes most of their meals, while
it's his wife who has resistances to cooking. In each case,
she hit the issues correct, but may have skewed the details.
The session clearly had a powerful emotional effect on my brother.
My session revealed my basic skepticism. I said very little,
to guard against leading her or feeding her extra information.
I was in some senses, a difficult customer. In spite of my
resistance, Nancy and her spirit guide (whom she calls Chico)
hit on every major issue that I am fighting with now. The impact
this reading has had on me is growing with time, and my skepticism
is slipping as I am forced to admit how correct she (and he?) was.
The 'past life' scenarios she described for me have proven to
be a stunningly accurate summation of all my current conflicts.
Some of this information was quite negative, and I have had to
struggle with some inner resistance since then, to come to terms
with the truth of it.
In the final analysis, I see that we felt better, very good,
in fact, after meeting this woman. It was a good experience, and
a healing one. The 'good fruits' of this meeting were evident
in the smiles and wonder we have carried from there. Still, from
a skeptical point of view, nothing much happened except a weird
conversation. In this case, the 'skeptic' side of my personality
manifested as a resistance to the basic truth of what was being
given to me.
These sessions contained *nothing* in the way of evidential
proof of her mediumship. There was nothing to convince the
observer, nothing I could hand to another to prove the value
of the experience. Yet I *know* this was valuable. It has
been one of many powerful triggers in an ongoing personal
transformation.
Alan.
|
| 833.10 | Re: .8, .7 | SHRBIZ::WAINE | Linda | Mon Aug 22 1988 13:36 | 32 |
| Re: .8
When I first heard about Keith Milton Rhinehart (KMR), I did
a lot of investigation on the tests he had undergone. (I have a
physics background, so I definitely wanted more info...) To this
date, as far as I know, KMR is the ONLY medium to pass the "Chair"
test at the University of Osaka. As of this date, to my knowledge,
there is no one (except KMR) that has "passed" this test whether
the person be a medium, illusionist, or otherwise. It is my
understanding that the scientists who developed the "Chair" used
people of James Randi's calliber in the initial development and
testing of the "Fraud-proof chair" (the term that the scientists used,
not my term...). This test is only one of many, many scientific tests
that KMR has undergone.
I agree with you that many types of mediumship are extremely
difficult, if not impossible, to prove the validity of, scientifically.
That is where personal proof-and-evidence falls into play, and how
well the environment of the medium is controlled.
Linda
P.S. Re: .7. I do know of a couple of books that do mention KMR
and some of the testing he has undergone. I'll get the exact names
and authors and post them. Also, if you want more information,
you can also call the Aquarian Foundation and they should be able
to direct you to more info. (The Aquarian Foundation has many
branches and study groups in many of the major cities of the US,
Canada, and abroad... There's a big branch in NYC, and study groups
in Boston and Hartford. If you have a problem locating a branch/study
group, send me a message and I'll see what I can come up with...)
|
| 833.11 | Omniscient being flunks Logic 101! | CTHULU::YERAZUNIS | We don't need that part. | Mon Aug 22 1988 19:37 | 61 |
| I was watching some mindless TV show (couldn't sleep) and they had
a "channeler" on. The host interviewed her, they talked about her
correspondent, and she agreed to go into channeling state so that
the studio audience could ask questions.
Her initial answers (to the hosts' questions) were on the order
of "I'm <mumble>, I'm n thousand years old, I'm essentially omniscient,
I'm here to help and enlighten you, ask me anything you want".
Most of the audience questions were drivel ("when's the next earthquake
in California? Three years...") but one young lady (who has earned
my everlasting gratitude) went right for the jugular:
Q: Is there any question you can't answer?
A: Uhhh, I don't know... I hope not...
Q: <knowing smile> Thank you.
Conclusion: this "channeler" is not what she claims.
-----
Consider
She was asked:
IS THERE A QUESTION YOU CANNOT ANSWER?
She answered:
I DON'T KNOW.
so she (and I, and any other observer) immediately knows that she
can't answer the question "Is there a question you can't answer?".
Therefore, the correct answer to the question is not "I don't know",
it's "YES!" (because there is at least one question she can't answer).
(well, either "YES!" or sparks should shoot from her fingers,
ectoplasm spout from her mouth, and all the clocks in the state
should run backwards... :-) )
We know she should have answered "yes"... now consider: what
if the being was omniscient _except_ for the above question. Then,
to answer "YES" would be wrong, because all questions could be
answered. So, if this being were omniscient _except_ for questions
about it's own omniscience, the correct answer would be NO; it could
answer all questions; either because it was omniscient or because
it could logically deduce the one answer above. Hence:
Being answers: Conclusion:
Yes Being cannot answer some questions,
and knows it.
No Being is truly omniscient
Don't know Being isn't good at logic, let alone
omniscience.
-Bill (back from vacation in the Twilight Zone)
|
| 833.12 | citations? | MERCY::CONNELLY | Eye Dr3 -- Regnad Kcin | Mon Aug 22 1988 22:00 | 7 |
| re: .10
> When I first heard about Keith Milton Rhinehart (KMR), I did
> a lot of investigation on the tests he had undergone.
Were any of these experiments published in scientific journals (and
if so, which ones)? Sounds like interesting reading.
paul
|
| 833.13 | Some books & journals about Keith Milton Rhinehart | SHRBIZ::WAINE | Linda | Wed Aug 24 1988 14:02 | 21 |
| Here's a start on some books and scientific journals with information
on Keith Milton Rhinehart:
- This Timeless Moment by Laura Huxley (Aldous Huxley's wife)
- True Experiences in Communicating with the Dead
Editted by Martin Ebon
See chapter entitled "Seattle's Psychic Wonder" by Suzy Smith
- Parapsychology and the Nature of Life by John L. Randall
tells about some of the testing done on KMR by
Dr. Helmut Schmidt, then senior research scientist for
Boeing Research Laboratories in Seattle, Washington.
Dr. Schmidt's results of the experimentation on KMR was published
in "New Scientist" - 10/16/69, pages 114,115; and in Journal
of Parapsychology, Volume 33, Number 2, June 1969, pages 99-108.
Hopefully, more to follow soon... (When I get a chance...)
Linda
|